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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:11:00 -
[1]
Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 maximum total possible. After the change, you will have 39+60 = 99 base + 25 implants = 124 max total, or an overall loss of 1.4 attribute points. Even if you ignore the skill that very few people train to L5, Presence, that's still a loss of 0.3 attribute points.
Ok, it's not a big drop (barely over 1% at a maximum and negligible for long-term "sensible" plans), but its still a drop nevertheless.
...
IMO, they should have only removed the 10 attribute-based learnings and added 10 to each basic value, but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one), and nothing would be different at all. MOST of the learning skills would be gone, and the only remaining one would be easily trained.
Even more alternatively, yeah, go ahead with your plan, but also give us all an extra free remap and 2 unassigned attribute points, for +0.6 total additional max attribute points. I'd like that more.
Or, heck, just ONE extra, and dump it (temporarily) into charisma. That's only 0.4 loss at max possible attribute total potential (which is still not quite ok, but meh, that I can easily live with, even if I am almost done training even that now-completely-useless skill), and actually a 0.7 gain compared to "all L5 except L4 Presence" learning plans. That would render the starting player attributes 20/20/20/20/20 instead of the "proposed" 20/20/20/20/19cha. It makes far more sense that way.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Rethguad Lamina
Genesis Tec
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:16:00 -
[2]
This is an outrage. -----------------------
Renting space in research/lab slots - EVE-Mail for info.
Selling Hammerhead II BPC's - EVE-Mail for info. |
Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:16:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Akita T Ok, it's not a big drop (barely over 1% at a maximum and negligible for long-term "sensible" plans), but its still a drop nevertheless.
If this is the worst problem Eve's facing, we're doing pretty good tbh.
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Grace Downfall
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:18:00 -
[4]
Storm in a teacup.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:20:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Akita T on 25/11/2010 13:20:58
Originally by: Wadaya The change wil give me : -.8 int, -.3 perc +.2 char -.2 will -.3 mem But I still can't fix that with a remap because , hey, I'm Achura
For me, compared to 7 hours from now when the last possible learning finishes, it's -0.4 in each attribute except charisma (-1.6 total), and a +0.2 in charisma which I seldom use anyway.
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal If this is the worst problem Eve's facing, we're doing pretty good tbh.
It's the most recently announced minor problem associated with an upcoming change, no more, no less. And one that could be eliminated (or even turned into a bonus) with a minor adjustment to the announced plans. Call it "a good will gesture" in case they decide to correct this minor nuisance.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:21:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Zagdul on 25/11/2010 13:21:54 I never had V's in all learning as I skimped on Charisma skills.
I'm loving this change as I'm gaining a few points.
Sorry for people who trained all V's in learning. Great for the majority of players who did basically what I did.
EDIT: When training a skill, you're only using 2 attributes. Work around your remaps and plan ahead for a year.
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Mikael Izra'il
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:22:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Mikael Izra''il on 25/11/2010 13:22:05
I'm not going to do number crunching but I'm pretty sure the reimbursed skillpoints needed for the fifth level of Presence alone will make up for all the time you'd earn in charisma-based skills thanks to that attribute point.
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Sofia Roseburn
Caldari Vivicide
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:22:00 -
[8]
I fully agree with you and shall be cancelling my 34 accounts forthwith.
Wait, no I won't. CCP have done p. damn well here, so there's nothing to complain about.
Well...there is, but you'd need to talk to someone about boosting Amarr. ---
So it goes something like this.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Foundation
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one), and nothing would be different at all.
If they left that one in, it would still mean players spend time training a skill that gives them zero gameplay benifit.
The learning skills were killing a lot of newbie subscribers IMO, because they were basically told they couldnt play the game untill they spent a month training skills that got them no new guns, ships, or gameplay
Completely removing every last one = huge win for everyone. There are a million different ways to do it, and honestly i think they picked the best method. There are very, very few people who will be shafted (and those who are, it is very, very minimal)
Overall, most players will be training skills FASTER due to the fact most people didnt lvl5 all their learning skills.
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente Amicus Morte Dead Muppets
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:25:00 -
[10]
Akita T, good that you're keeping CCP sharp, but...cry me a river
When I started I'd gladly have given 10% of my future max attrib points to save me 3 months of learning stupid learning skills. ----- Amicus Morte is recruiting. Dive into the world of 0.0 !
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mikael Izra'il I'm not going to do number crunching but I'm pretty sure the reimbursed skillpoints needed for the fifth level of Presence alone will make up for all the time you'd earn in charisma-based skills thanks to that attribute.
Training Presence to L5 was never really feasible anyway. There simply weren't enough charisma-based skills to make it worth training. But you never know WHEN they'll introduce new skills with charisma in it.
Besides, what makes more sense, new players starting with 20 in all attributes except charisma which starts at 19 in the planned changes, or just giving all new players 20 in each attribute flat ?
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:26:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity Overall, most players will be training skills FASTER due to the fact most people didnt lvl5 all their learning skills.
this.
it will benefit people that have up to 5/4 learning skills + learning 5 which is pretty much nearly everyone. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
irion felpamy
Minmatar Assisted Genocide Unprovoked Aggression
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:27:00 -
[13]
Proof some people will complain about anything.
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Mikael Izra'il
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T
Besides, what makes more sense, new players starting with 20 in all attributes except charisma which starts at 19 in the planned changes, or just giving all new players 20 in each attribute flat ?
It's common knowledge that EvE players are uncharismatic jerks .
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fivetide humidyear
Gallente Fool Mental Junket
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:32:00 -
[15]
::drama llama::
not sure this even counts as a storm in a tea cup
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:32:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Akita T on 25/11/2010 13:32:11
Originally by: Terminal Insanity honestly i think they picked the best method
NOT the best method. One of the best, but not the absolute best. With a tad bit more fine-tuning, it could become THE best.
DEAR NON-CAREFUL READERS, I am not complaining the learning skills get removed. What I am drawing attention to is the fine-tuning of the added attributes.
Make new players start at 20/20/20/20/20 instead of 20/20/20/20/19.
In other words, I ask at least for one extra base attribute point for everybody, for 100 base attribute total instead of 99, so that the maximum possible will be not just 124, but 125, closer to the old possible maximum of 125.4
MY OCD DEMANDS IT !!!
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Oregon 9
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Zagdul Edited by: Zagdul on 25/11/2010 13:21:54 Sorry for people who trained all V's in learning. Great for the majority of players who did basically what I did.
I'm not sorry! For every skill that uses charisma since I trained it to 5 (which is basically when I started out) I've trained that little bit faster than everyone else, and now I get that 630k sp back for free to put into anything I choose!
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:34:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Zagdul on 25/11/2010 13:35:28 Linkage
Originally by: Rick Rothsar Someone said they're losing 640k SP training per year under the new plan.
640k SP / 5m SP reimbursement (recovered SP previously tied up in learning skills) = 7.8 YEARS before you actually lose SP over what your current SP pace.
I certainly hope you're not butthurt over how much SP your character is going to be losing starting in September of 2018.
EDIT: I read, I'm just pointing this out for the people who wish to complain.
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Lana Torrin
Minmatar Republic Military Skool
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:35:00 -
[19]
3/10.. A bit predictable but well timed and first in what I believe will be many. The bolded coloured text at the bottom is a bit of a give away though.
Support giving carebears new toys |
Glonn
Amarr Instant Annihilation Everto Rex Regis
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:37:00 -
[20]
How many of us even use charisma.. [/url] |
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:38:00 -
[21]
What they did was neat and simple. As long as they nail the execution, I do not mind the fact that it'll take people longer to get the skills I already have.
Carry on CCP, I approve your implementation (I read the blog, my concerns were quashed).
Hoppit!
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 25/11/2010 13:32:11
Originally by: Terminal Insanity honestly i think they picked the best method
NOT the best method. One of the best, but not the absolute best. With a tad bit more fine-tuning, it could become THE best.
DEAR NON-CAREFUL READERS, I am not complaining the learning skills get removed. What I am drawing attention to is the fine-tuning of the added attributes.
Make new players start at 20/20/20/20/20 instead of 20/20/20/20/19.
In other words, I ask at least for one extra base attribute point for everybody, for 100 base attribute total instead of 99, so that the maximum possible will be not just 124, but 125, closer to the old possible maximum of 125.4
MY OCD DEMANDS IT !!!
oh fine, I agree with you on that single point.
happy? ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:41:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Akita T on 25/11/2010 13:41:24
Originally by: Glonn How many of us even use charisma..
That's the point, I am NOT using it in spite of just finishing up training for the L5 in the advanced charisma learning that I was fully aware it's pointless to train. My OCD also demanded that, being the only non-L5 skill in learning for so long. Yet the current proposed changes, when implemented, will INCREASE my charisma by yet another 0.2 and in return remove 0.4 from each of my other attributes.
Originally by: Grimpak oh fine, I agree with you on that single point. happy?
That was my only somewhat serious point, so, yeah, not unhappy _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Grimpak oh fine, I agree with you on that single point. happy?
That was my only somewhat serious point, so, yeah, not unhappy
---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Kaar
Rionnag Alba Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:51:00 -
[25]
Originally by: irion felpamy Proof some people will complain about anything.
---
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kaar Proof some people will complain about anything.
You must be new to the internets. Welcome. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:55:00 -
[27]
I agree it should be 20/20/20/20/20.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 13:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mag's I agree it should be 20/20/20/20/20.
Hooray, convert #2 \o/ _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Amateratsu
Caldari The Pegasus Project
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:02:00 -
[29]
It amounts to a drop of 72sp per hour, 600k sp per year for a min/max remap. its a minimal loss that 99.9% of players will barely even notice.
Plan what your gonna do with the extra sp your have for redistribution and be happy.
á
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:07:00 -
[30]
Someone was going to post a thread about this - may as well of been Akita :)
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:09:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Amateratsu It amounts to a drop of 72sp per hour, 600k sp per year for a min/max remap. its a minimal loss that 99.9% of players will barely even notice. Plan what your gonna do with the extra sp your have for redistribution and be happy.
Screw the SP totals, I have run out of useful stuff to train more than a year ago anyway. No, the more important aspect is the complete disregard for OCD sufferers which so obviously make up a big part of the EVE player base. Having a sum of 39 base attribute points was bad enough, but having 99 instead of 100 is soooooo much worse ! Also, why 19 charisma and 20 everything else ? WHY ? They're taunting us, calling us ugly and unwanted and whatever ! A great injustice on par, nay, far worse than any of the t20 scandals !
P.S. Assume mild sarcasm tags flank this entire post. P.P.S. Probably the entire thread. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:10:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Amateratsu
It amounts to a drop of 72sp per hour, 600k sp per year for a min/max remap. its a minimal loss that 99.9% of players will barely even notice.
Plan what your gonna do with the extra sp your have for redistribution and be happy.
It works both ways. Since the affects would be barely noticable, there is little reason for CCP to not add that 1 extra point and make even more people happy.
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irion felpamy
Minmatar Assisted Genocide Unprovoked Aggression
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:12:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kaar Proof some people will complain about anything.
You must be new to the internets. Welcome.
Its may be a common off the cuff remark that people will whine about anything but deep down don't you also want to belive that if someone woke up in a mansion to a handjob from one of the two beautiful women in the bed they would not immediatly complain one of them had smudged her eyeliner?
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:22:00 -
[34]
Originally by: irion felpamy Its may be a common off the cuff remark that people will whine about anything but deep down don't you also want to belive that if someone woke up in a mansion to a handjob from one of the two beautiful women in the bed they would not immediatly complain one of them had smudged her eyeliner?
Why, of course not... my first two thoughts would be "why is the other one just sitting there" and immediately followed by "why are there exactly TWO women in bed with me" _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:25:00 -
[35]
I agree we get +1 base attribute point. I feel nerfed as my 33 perception will go down to 32 :<
99 is just such a strange number
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:25:00 -
[36]
Quote: storm in a teacup
Tempest in a teapot, god damn it.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:32:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Akita T on 25/11/2010 14:32:27
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Quote: storm in a teacup
Tempest in a teapot, god damn it.
Gaseous eruption in the chamberpot !
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton I agree we get +1 base attribute point. I feel nerfed as my 33 perception will go down to 32 :< 99 is just such a strange number
Convert #3 \o/ _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:34:00 -
[38]
Actually the number of attribute points isn't that important, it's the number of points you can redistribute when remappeing that's more important? Now if I could put all 99 into perception ......
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Kaito Haakkainen
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:35:00 -
[39]
99 base AP? Outraeg!
Also my character highly resents the implication that capsuleers are somehow slightly deficient when it comes to being charismatic.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:39:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Quote: storm in a teacup
Tempest in a teapot, god damn it.
Gaseous eruption in the chamberpot !
watch out for splatterage.... ewwww @x@
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:43:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 25/11/2010 14:43:48
Originally by: Mag's I agree it should be 20/20/20/20/20.
I am definitely not OCD, but I also agree.
EDIT: But I guess this is CCP's way of showing all of EVE how much of a bastard child charisma is in EVE.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 14:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Umm, the CSM passed a proposal a few months back advocating exactly this change -- with [some differences]
They pretty much had the same 20/20/20/20/20 idea _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:02:00 -
[43]
NAPSTER BAD! 20/20/20/20/20 GOOD!
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Mikel Laurentson
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:08:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 25/11/2010 13:56:19
_
Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 maximum total possible. After the change, you will have 39+60 = 99 base + 25 implants = 124 max total, or an overall loss of 1.4 attribute points. Even if you ignore the skill that very few people train to L5, Presence, that's still a loss of 0.3 attribute points.
Ok, it's not a big drop (barely over 1% at a maximum and negligible for long-term "sensible" plans), but its still a drop nevertheless.
...
IMO, they should have only removed the 10 attribute-based learnings and added 10 to each basic value, but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one), and nothing would be different at all. MOST of the learning skills would be gone, and the only remaining one would be easily trained.
Even more alternatively, yeah, go ahead with your plan, but also give us all an extra free remap and 2 unassigned attribute points, for +0.6 total additional max attribute points. I'd like that more.
Or, heck, just ONE extra, and dump it (temporarily) into charisma. That's only 0.4 loss at max possible attribute total potential (which is still not quite ok, but meh, that I can easily live with, even if I am almost done training even that now-completely-useless skill), and actually a 0.7 gain compared to "all L5 except L4 Presence" learning plans. That would render the starting player attributes 20/20/20/20/20 instead of the "proposed" 20/20/20/20/19cha. It makes far more sense that way.
DEAR NON-CAREFUL READERS, I am not complaining the learning skills get removed. What I am drawing attention to is the fine-tuning of the added attributes.
Make new players start at 20/20/20/20/20 instead of 20/20/20/20/19.
In other words, I ask at least for one extra base attribute point for everybody, for 100 base attribute total instead of 99, so that the maximum possible will be not just 124, but 125, closer to the old possible maximum of 125.4
MY OCD DEMANDS IT !!!
If you had a full set of +5s and all learning at five, you should already have HardenedTFU, surely?
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Derus Grobb
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus Transmission Lost
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:17:00 -
[45]
ffs............ ---
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Retromash
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:19:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kaito Haakkainen 99 base AP? Outraeg!
Also my character highly resents the implication that capsuleers are somehow slightly deficient when it comes to being charismatic.
Being Caldari, You should be used to slight deficiencies.
PMS - It's not just for THAT time of the month Menopause - It doesn't mean THAT time of the month goes away
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:24:00 -
[47]
i offer my not-at-all humble support for this thread. while 99 has its certain charm, 100 is just so much better. just say it. hundred. mhm. hundred. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Usagi Tsukino
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:44:00 -
[48]
Coincidence or not that 99 looks similar to qq. ___
Chaotic Dreams |
Shaalira D'arc
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:52:00 -
[49]
Never change, Akita.
/supported for the just cause of placating OCD twitching.
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Cobalt Sixty
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.11.25 15:52:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Amateratsu
It amounts to a drop of 72sp per hour, 600k sp per year for a min/max remap. its a minimal loss that 99.9% of players will barely even notice.
**** those players, they obviously don't take the game seriously enough!
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RedrickShoohart Joker
SoT
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Posted - 2010.11.25 16:09:00 -
[51]
I think CCP should use 12.28 EXTRA POINTS -))
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.25 16:22:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Mikel Laurentson If you had a full set of +5s and all learning at five, you should already have HardenedTFU, surely?
Surely, you can read what you quote ? No ? Ok... _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.11.25 16:30:00 -
[53]
Ironic that CCP makes a broad sweeping change, yet sticks to the archaic system of having one attribute slightly lower than the rest if on an even scale.
Might as well make the change CCP to an even 20 for every attribute.
*supports Akita T.
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Feligast
Minmatar Intentionally Destructive
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Posted - 2010.11.25 16:33:00 -
[54]
Knowing the horror of OCD, I will count myself amongst the converted. 20/20/20/20/20 is ok by me.
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Feligast
Minmatar Intentionally Destructive
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Posted - 2010.11.25 16:36:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: Amateratsu
It amounts to a drop of 72sp per hour, 600k sp per year for a min/max remap. its a minimal loss that 99.9% of players will barely even notice.
**** those players, they obviously don't take the game seriously enough!
Because internet spaceships pixels are SRS BSNS!
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Zeuth Proxy
Caldari Nomadic Asylum
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Posted - 2010.11.25 16:48:00 -
[56]
I agree with this change. As a person who is spending their time training pointless skills to 4 just to get the skill sheet correct having the odd 19 would anger me. Same with the mining 1 I had to train to 4.
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ceaon
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Posted - 2010.11.25 17:42:00 -
[57]
/signed
Originally by: CCP Adida The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.11.25 17:55:00 -
[58]
I want my 1 extra whole point. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 1SEPT10
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.25 18:03:00 -
[59]
Only a problem if you are one of those all level V learning losers. 5/4 represent! 2.2 mil free xp, i'll take it!
...
Seriously, this is like someone giving you 990,000 pounds and then complaining that they didn't give you a million.
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I'thari
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.25 18:21:00 -
[60]
Nah, make it 20/20/20/20/20.4 with 0.4 unremappable... just for the lulz from future whining about charisma being usless attribute |
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2010.11.25 18:43:00 -
[61]
Originally by: I'thari Nah, make it 20/20/20/20/20.4 with 0.4 unremappable... just for the lulz from future whining about charisma being usless attribute
whoa! hold on. that would be asking too much. we are already getting an arm and a leg. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.11.25 18:48:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Amateratsu
It amounts to a drop of 72sp per hour, 600k sp per year for a min/max remap. its a minimal loss that 99.9% of players will barely even notice.
Plan what your gonna do with the extra sp your have for redistribution and be happy.
This, basically.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Drykor
Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.11.25 18:57:00 -
[63]
Meh, I guess I agree with Akita, though I'm too happy about this change to mind a lot.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:11:00 -
[64]
Doubt you're gonna get it. They need to offset the loss potential (from removing the learning skills) with a rather insidious 600K/yearly (as pointed by several posts before), whether out of serendipity - or they actually went and did the estimates.
You can probably call it a yearly CCP tax for removing learning skills
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:48:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Sturmwolke Doubt you're gonna get it. They need to offset the loss potential (from removing the learning skills) with a rather insidious 600K/yearly (as pointed by several posts before), whether out of serendipity - or they actually went and did the estimates.
You can probably call it a yearly CCP tax for removing learning skills
the thing is, those 600k/yearly affect more the people that has all 5's on learning.
those that have all 5's in basic and all 4's in advanced + learning 5 (probably pretty much the grand majority of the player base) will actually get a boost in training...
...I think. can someone cough up the diferences between today's 5/4 + 5 and the future +12 in stats please? I had a brainfart some hours ago and I haven't recovered yet (and I'm lazy too) ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:57:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Akita T
Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 maximum total possible. After the change, you will have 39+60 = 99 base + 25 implants = 124 max total, or an overall loss of 1.4 attribute points. Even if you ignore the skill that very few people train to L5, Presence, that's still a loss of 0.3 attribute points.
Ok, it's not a big drop (barely over 1% at a maximum and negligible for long-term "sensible" plans), but its still a drop nevertheless.
...
IMO, they should have only removed the 10 attribute-based learnings and added 10 to each basic value, but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one), and nothing would be different at all. MOST of the learning skills would be gone, and the only remaining one would be easily trained.
With 2 characters at 125.40 I support this.
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ExcalibursTemplar
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:12:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Originally by: Akita T but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one), and nothing would be different at all.
If they left that one in, it would still mean players spend time training a skill that gives them zero gameplay benifit.
The learning skills were killing a lot of newbie subscribers IMO, because they were basically told they couldnt play the game untill they spent a month training skills that got them no new guns, ships, or gameplay
Completely removing every last one = huge win for everyone. There are a million different ways to do it, and honestly i think they picked the best method. There are very, very few people who will be shafted (and those who are, it is very, very minimal)
Overall, most players will be training skills FASTER due to the fact most people didnt lvl5 all their learning skills.
I'm a new player that started to play eve in i think June. What you've just said there in bold is the truth . Because of the learning skills i nearly jacked in playing eve as the learning skills are a horrendous obstacle for a new player to deal with. Literally the first couple of months of playing eve all i did was mine in an osprey and retriever while i got my learning skills up to 4/4. All because every bitter vet and his dog was beating me over the head with the fact that i need to train my learning skills up straight away.
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Cyber Blue
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:14:00 -
[68]
Wouldn't common sense dictate to make it 20 all around? Stop abusing charisma, what has it ever done to you.
I guess this means I agree with Akita T. Which really sucks, but, right is right.
End of line... |
Palovana
Caldari Inner Fire Inc.
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:20:00 -
[69]
20 x 5 is good maths. I support this.
It all makes sense:
17 x 5 = 85 fixed base points per attribute, plus 15 remappable points.
The 15th remappable point allows you to have 33 on primary and 26 on secondary (assuming +5 implants are used, 17 + 5 + 11 primary, 17 + 5 + 4 secondary).
You'll train at 2760 SP/hour which is closer to the current max of 2772 SP/hr, elminating 83.3% of the 72 SP/hr training nerf for those who are currently skilled for max learning.
Best I can think of is that CCP wants an SP/hour max rate that is a more round number (2700) rather than the current 2772 or the 2760 I proposed above.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:38:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 25/11/2010 21:39:42
Originally by: Grimpak ...I think. can someone cough up the diferences between today's 5/4 + 5 and the future +12 in stats please? I had a brainfart some hours ago and I haven't recovered yet (and I'm lazy too)
Well, let's see a typical example on Perc (base 15)/Will (base 9) skilling :
a) 10 Perc / 10 Will / Max Learn = 46.2 SP/min b) 10 Perc / 9 Will / Max Learn = 45.1 SP/min c) 9 Per / 9 Will / Max Learn = 44.55 SP/min
New max flat rate = 45 SP/min
So, the difference is :
a) -72 SP/hr or -630,720 SP/year (primary & secondary attribute maxed) b) -6 SP/hr or -52560 SP/year (only primary attribute maxed at 5/5, secondary at 5/4) c) +27 SP/hr or +236520 SP/year (primary & secondary attributes at 5/4)
Pretty much anyone who's got at least a 5/5 for the primary attribute for any particular skill will get taxed.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:44:00 -
[71]
Confirming that I also have OCD, and think this idea is a good one. It looks nicer, and it helps keep balance compared to before the change. You might be running some risks by letting Akita think he has a chance to influence CCP policy, but it's worth it.
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Unprecedented
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:45:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Palovana 20 x 5 is good maths. I support this.
It all makes sense:
17 x 5 = 85 fixed base points per attribute, plus 15 remappable points.
The 15th remappable point allows you to have 33 on primary and 26 on secondary (assuming +5 implants are used, 17 + 5 + 11 primary, 17 + 5 + 4 secondary).
You'll train at 2760 SP/hour which is closer to the current max of 2772 SP/hr, elminating 83.3% of the 72 SP/hr training nerf for those who are currently skilled for max learning.
Best I can think of is that CCP wants an SP/hour max rate that is a more round number (2700) rather than the current 2772 or the 2760 I proposed above.
This. It really seems odd to me that it wasn't done this way...
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Aera Aiana
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.25 23:19:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Sturmwolke Pretty much anyone who's got at least a 5/5 for the primary attribute for any particular skill will get taxed.
So, how long will it take for that tax to compensate the 4.743M SP I'll be able to reallocate?
I kind of doubt I'll still be playing EVE by the time I'm actually losing something... - Don't let the trolls stop you from giving a helpful reply. :) |
Andrea Exerlauka
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Posted - 2010.11.25 23:19:00 -
[74]
I guess CCP must be planning on introducing lots of new Charisma-based skills in the future
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.26 00:30:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Andrea Exerlauka I guess CCP must be planning on introducing lots of new Charisma-based skills in the future
Well yeah - why else would they think it's so broken that it needs to be pre-nerfed?
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.26 02:53:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto You might be running some risks by letting Akita think he has a chance to influence CCP policy, but it's worth it.
Nah, if anything, anecdotal evidence would suggest they they do the exact opposite more often than not _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Ex Industrialist
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Posted - 2010.11.26 03:24:00 -
[77]
I also agree. That 19 sticks in my craw, even if it's only Charisma. </nitpick>
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2010.11.26 04:51:00 -
[78]
One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.11.26 07:17:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 26/11/2010 07:24:15
Originally by: Aera Aiana
So, how long will it take for that tax to compensate the 4.743M SP I'll be able to reallocate? I kind of doubt I'll still be playing EVE by the time I'm actually losing something...
Yes, from a profit perspective (i.e. me & myslef) the tax or nerf is offset by the amount of SP unlocked by the removal of the learning skill. All in all, since it is a CCP giveaway, of course the loss looks rather negligible from that perspective.
However, I'd like to mull on a few points :
1) Consequences or penalties to choices have been removed. Those players that had chosen the longer term investment route will no longer enjoy the SP gain advantage over any other players that had chosen otherwise. You could loosely say, CCP removed a PVP aspect from the skill training. What remains are the no brainer remaps and discipline in sticking to a skill plan.
2) In relative terms, the margin in SP gain between those that had invested in the learning skills vs those that had not becomes 0 after the new change.
3) Now here's a part that's tricky to understand. With the learning skills, the SP is invested (into a CCP bank), not destroyed. With the new change, a small fraction is technically destroyed. We don't know how many characters are out there with a 5/5 or 5/4 attribute stats (including future potentials if learning skills still existed), but it's obvious that their relative training speed will be nerfed with the change.
As per OP, the obvious way to fine tune that noticeable gulf is simply to : * add +1 to the stat pool (to give a total 15 points re-mappable) * then increase the max remap per attribute by +1 (to give 5 + 12 + 10 + 1 = 28 base max)
The above will result in a -0.4SP/min difference for the secondary attribute - which is truly negligible. It would be interesting to hear CCP's reasoning why this isn't made so.
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Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 08:13:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Mag's I agree it should be 20/20/20/20/20.
Hooray, convert #2 \o/
I agree in principle, although it's not a dealbreaker by any means. I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts on opening up the amount you can 'adjust' to allow for faster/stronger/better remaps.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:47:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts on opening up the amount you can 'adjust' to allow for faster/stronger/better remaps.
All that's really needed is the 5x17 minimum base plus 15 remappable (for a total of 100) instead of the 14 remappable we have now and they're not changing (for a total of just 99). Anything more than that... like, say, 5x16 minimum base plus 19 remappable (total of 99), let alone anything more powerful like, say, 5x15 plus 24 remappable would actually be a bit too overpowered. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:04:00 -
[82]
imho, base 15, 25 extra, max +10 per attribute.
average 20/20/20/20/20 min-max 25/25/20/15/15
i can see some very interesting choices here. 2700 still as max speed, but in two pairs, and more flexibility overall. also, pretty numbers :) ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:05:00 -
[83]
Wth is an OCD? Is there a brief in the OP? Must have missed it..
Btw, yeah, go for the 20x5 thingy instead of the 20x4+19.. didn't understand that decision also.
TL;DR /supported New Eden needs a Public Feature/Idea/Bug-Tracker |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:07:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Akita T on 26/11/2010 11:11:44
OR, they could boost the attribute bonus of implants by 6% (so a +5 would actually become a +5.3, for an overall gain of 0.1 to the max total). But that wouldn't satisfy the OCD
Originally by: Tres Farmer Wth is an OCD?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessiveûcompulsive_disorder _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:12:00 -
[85]
maybe make attribute implants increase learning speed straight away, instead of attributes? tho, it would make low grades almost useless with low attributes, and high-grades only useful with high attributes.
i'd prefer to keep implants as it is. the elegance is fitting. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Kierlana Vosk
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:17:00 -
[86]
Originally by: I'thari Nah, make it 20/20/20/20/20.4 with 0.4 unremappable... just for the lulz from future whining about charisma being usless attribute
Yes! I totally support this!
Actually, the only thing that annoys me is that I voted for this on the CSM issue thing.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:19:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 26/11/2010 11:20:38 I think I got more then 20/20/20/20/19, because I got Achura blood :D
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 26/11/2010 11:11:44
OR, they could boost the attribute bonus of implants by 6% (so a +5 would actually become a +5.3, for an overall gain of 0.1 to the max total). But that wouldn't satisfy the OCD
Originally by: Tres Farmer Wth is an OCD?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessiveûcompulsive_disorder
And it annoys me you use that term so freely when you know nothing about its implications, for thoose have ever sufferd it or known someone who do. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Shirah Yuri
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:21:00 -
[88]
All in all, this discussion is very much like if I give someone, just for the heck of it, 100 Euros, and he goes asking "Oh, nice... but why not 200?!"
Noone is really losing anything here.
-Those with non-maxed Learning Skills will get somewhat of a boost in terms of learning speed and some refund of previously invested SP.
- Those with maxed-out Learning skills, boys, you're facing some million SP, basically FOR FREE. If you're complaining about slightly slower skilling from now on, please do the maths of how long it will be until your previously higher skill training cancels out this major SP gift.
Anyone screaming for any upwards adjustments of what CCP is offering is just one of those who just don't know when to stop screaming "I WANT MORE!". It does get pitiable at some point.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:21:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Akita T on 26/11/2010 11:22:01
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I think I got more then 20/20/20/20/19, because I got Achura blood :D
I'll have 21/21/21/21/15
Originally by: Shirah Yuri All in all, this discussion is very much like if I give someone, just for the heck of it, 100 Euros, and he goes asking "Oh, nice... but why not 200?!"
No, more like, you give somebody 99 Euro and he asks you "why not 100". Except you replace "Euro" with "Base attribute points".
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Shirah Yuri
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:24:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Akita T
No, more like, you give somebody 99 Euro and he asks you "why not 100". Except you replace "Euro" with "Base attribute points".
Granted. Still doesn't change the attributes I'd use for such a person/question.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:29:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Shirah Yuri Granted. Still doesn't change the attributes I'd use for such a person/question.
When somebody ever asks you to borrow 100, tell them "I can only give you 99", see how many look at you funny. I'll wait. You come back and tell us how it went.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Shirah Yuri
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:33:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Akita T When somebody ever asks you to borrow 100, tell them "I can only give you 99", see how many look at you funny. I'll wait. You come back and tell us how it went.
Now... where does that relate to free givings? Don't mix up things. Your rhetoric is fine. The actual argument lacks any substance. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:38:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Akita T on 26/11/2010 11:46:02
Originally by: Shirah Yuri The actual argument lacks any substance.
Then why bother having it at all in the first place ? You initiated that particular line of "reasoning".
Also, WHAT "free givings" ? I am getting 0.4 removed from each of the 4 more useful attributes and getting granted a single paltry 0.2 for the least useful of them all. As for the SP that I or anybody else have already invested in learnings, those are not "given for free" at all, they were earned fair and square, with the KNOWLEDGE that it would take roughly FOUR YEARS before I'd catch up to the rest that stopped one level earlier in their learnings as far as useful skills go, sacrificing time to train them, time in which I could have trained other useful skills. So, now, I get those "reimbursed", and I know that 8 years and a half down the road, I'd be worse off than I could have been before again. If I cared enough for an action with 4 years payoff delay, you bet that I still care to some degree about a 8 years reverse situation. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Shirah Yuri
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:41:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Akita T Then why bother having it at all in the first place ? You initiated that particular line of "reasoning".
The actual argument referring to your "loan" example. But... don't let us turn this discussion into a meta-discussion. Both you and I have better things to do. Well, I know i have :) |
Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.26 12:03:00 -
[95]
I vote we just reduce Akita T's stats to 19/19/19/19/19...
You know, to keep his OCD under control.
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ceaon
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Posted - 2010.11.26 12:51:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Sader Rykane I vote we just reduce Akita T's stats to 19/19/19/19/19...
You know, to keep his OCD under control.
CCP ban this post
Originally by: CCP Adida The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
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Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.26 12:55:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Zagdul Edited by: Zagdul on 25/11/2010 13:21:54
Sorry for people who trained all V's in learning. Great for the majority of players who did basically what I did.
Don't be, people who have trained all learnings lvl V have gained lots and lots of sp's over you during the past years. And now we get an even bigger boost to our skills than you do. However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.11.26 13:46:00 -
[98]
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Sader Rykane I vote we just reduce Akita T's stats to 19/19/19/19/19...
You know, to keep his OCD under control.
CCP ban this post
Why? It's funny. Did they already take Sarcasm lvl1 from you and replaced it with Austerity lvl5? New Eden needs a Public Feature/Idea/Bug-Tracker |
Ishina Fel
Caldari Terra Incognita Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:37:00 -
[99]
I agree with AkitaT. It would make more sense, AND look prettier!
...
*goes back to arranging sharpened pencils by remaining length*
Signature? What signature? |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:39:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Sader Rykane I vote we just reduce Akita T's stats to 19/19/19/19/19...
You know, to keep his OCD under control.
Make the proposal in the AH, I'll support it.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:43:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Shirah Yuri All in all, this discussion is very much like if I give someone, just for the heck of it, 100 Euros, and he goes asking "Oh, nice... but why not 200?!"
No, more like, you give somebody 99 Euro and he asks you "why not 100". Except you replace "Euro" with "Base attribute points".
Well my answer to that would always be something along the lines of "Well how about 0, you ungracious so-and-so?"
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:54:00 -
[102]
You and your OCD both need to get over it. --Vel
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Portmanteau
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:01:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sader Rykane I vote we just reduce Akita T's stats to 19/19/19/19/19...
You know, to keep his OCD under control.
Make the proposal in the AH, I'll support it.
supported 99.99999%
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Evilan Altana
Moriar Libera
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:38:00 -
[104]
I completely support it being 20/20/20/20/20 because the first thing i thought when seeing that 19 and seeing:
"which looks very pretty and sensible and planned, which is always nice when it happens by accident."
was well why not a little bit of intentional tweaking to make it nice and even.
Even though I had no intention of training charisma skills for anywhere near enough to justify almost any of my skill points, I had to because it wouldn't be even with the others.
My OCD also demands it, because otherwise its just lopsided.
FAKE EDIT: I have trained all 5's in learning on many accounts and the removal of learning skills is quite possibly the greatest news I could possibly read.
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.26 17:03:00 -
[105]
I agree simply because 202020202020 looks better than 20202020202019(WTEFF?!?!?)
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Vertisce Soritenshi
O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.26 17:06:00 -
[106]
I think a better point to this is that currently with max skills you have 99.9 points for your attributes. CCP is aware of this and instead of rounding up to 100 points total they are rounding down to 99 points. They MUST have a reason for this but I cannot fathom what it could possibly be. Either way...I agree with the OP.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.26 17:27:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi I think a better point to this is that currently with max skills you have 99.9 points for your attributes.
Well, it's actually max 97.9, but you get up to 2.5 extra from the interaction between "Learning" and implants (a +5 implant with Learning 5 trained acts like a +5.5 implant) for a grand total of 100.4 _
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Vertisce Soritenshi
O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.26 17:29:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi I think a better point to this is that currently with max skills you have 99.9 points for your attributes.
Well, it's actually max 97.9, but you get up to 2.5 extra from the interaction between "Learning" and implants (a +5 implant with Learning 5 trained acts like a +5.5 implant) for a grand total of 100.4
Well if thats the case then we are going to be getting MORE points and everybody wins.
If you like this sig click HERE. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.26 17:39:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Akita T on 26/11/2010 17:46:53
Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi Well if thats the case then we are going to be getting MORE points and everybody wins.
I think you misunderstand.
NOW, we get up to a max of 100.4, not 99.9 as you stated... but AFTER this change we only get up to a max of 99.0 (plus, in both cases, the +25 max from implants before learnings come into play). The 100.4 is composed of 39 base + 50 raw learnings + 11.4 from "Learning" itself applied to all possible attribute sources (+3.9 from current base attributes, +5.0 from maxed learnings and +2.5 from full set of +5 implants).
In other words, on a completely maxed-out character, you had the potential for +61.4 to total attributes from learning skills. They are removing those, and giving everybody a flat 60 (12 in each of the 5 attributes). So the ONLY people that lose out on it (and ONLY very long term) are those with at least three L5 advanced learnings... which in itself is NOT a bad deal. The only nasty thing about it is the fact new players start with 99 attributes total, 20 in each attribute except charisma which is "stuck" at 19. So, the superior compromise would be to give a grand total of 100 base attributes instead of 99, which means the only people losing out are those that trained ALL learning skills to maximum (and since most people avoided L5 advanced charisma unless they really, really ran out of ideas, that's the best thing overall). Plus... it's symmetrical. Therefore good.
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Vertisce Soritenshi
O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.26 17:50:00 -
[110]
ok...so its a 1.4 loss not a .9 loss. lol...either way...I still agree with the OP.
If you like this sig click HERE. |
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.26 17:58:00 -
[111]
The most hilarious thing about it all is that even if they DO grant us one extra attribute point for a grand total of 100 AND a free remap for everybody, I _still_ wouldn't bother remapping, because I will have 21/21/21/21/15 plus one unassigned point (all hail 3 charisma), which is subjectively better for me than the 21/21/21/20/17 I could remap to (17 being the minimum in any one attribute). _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Zakonis
Caldari Goose Bite
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Posted - 2010.11.26 18:23:00 -
[112]
Well having OCD sucks big time. I use to have it really bad when I was younger. But 1 point and this now 4 page thread about 1 point. Well I think what they are doing is awesome. I don't really care about 1 point less in an attribute that we all, or most of us all don't really care about. If they are giving back all the skill points we spent in all the learning skills. Then I can't wait for this change! For several months I spent on an alt account learning all of the learning skills to lvl 5. Now I didn't learn all of the charisma skill and I'm missing 1 point in willpower. That comes to a total of 3,765,373 skill points! I for one welcome the change for I get to redistribute these babies!!! But if it isn't how I think it will be or they change it to not happen like this. I will cry and I'm a dude. Don't make me cry CCP, please?
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Intigo
Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.11.26 18:41:00 -
[113]
Was Akita T always this annoying? ___________________
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Strom Kryos
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.26 18:53:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Strom Kryos on 26/11/2010 18:54:31 Well.. I agree with you in a logical technical way.
BUT
Going on gameplay.. and the fact that the number of players that actually have all learning skills to +5 and all +5 implants .. either
A - Love the fact that they don't have to replace the (hundreds of) millions in implants when they get podded.
B - Sit in a station doing nothing (except) manipulating market prices.
I'm fine with the changes and accept them as they are.. if CCP have this all set why spend the time messing with it more.. let them go fix something more meaningful.
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night sentry
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Posted - 2010.11.26 22:05:00 -
[115]
Edited by: night sentry on 26/11/2010 22:06:15 agreed!!! I've spent 5 painful months training every learning skill to V, and the fruits of my labor was just beginning to take hold! faster training time than all the rest. And now CCP not only are you making all my suffering meaningless, since everyone is now the same, but ur taking away 1.4 attribute points that i've earned!!!
Insult to injury!!!
OUTRAGEE!!! I WISH YOU ILL CCP
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2010.11.26 22:13:00 -
[116]
I too, got OCD. Srsly tho, some of us likes things structured. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Julienne Poirier
Gallente Nonya Endeavours
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Posted - 2010.11.26 23:20:00 -
[117]
+1 for 5x20 plan
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.27 01:45:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Intigo Was Akita T always this annoying?
Most likely yes _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.27 03:04:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 27/11/2010 03:12:35
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto You might be running some risks by letting Akita think he has a chance to influence CCP policy, but it's worth it.
Nah, if anything, anecdotal evidence would suggest they they do the exact opposite more often than not
Well yeah, that'd be my point. You're this bad now, how bad will you be if you think you have influence?
Originally by: Intigo Was Akita T always this annoying?
Lord yes. The problem is that he has this damnable knack for being right at the same time. Seriously, I think he was the first one to actually look at the moongoo changes in Dominion(and I include CCP staff in that), and he called it perfectly. He's the only person I've ever felt like accusing of being *too* analytical.
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Luminos
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Posted - 2010.11.27 03:44:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Akita T ANOTHER POSSIBLE SOLUTION : Boost attribute gains from implants by 10% too ! So a "+1" attribute would actually grant +1.1 (like it used to), and a "+5" would grant +5.5 Or at least by 6% (so 1.06, 2.12, 3.18, 4.24 and 5.3). ... but that wouldn't satisfy the OCD tendencies, so screw it.
I'm suprised your OCD didn't go nuts over the idea of changing the 20/20/20/20/19 to 19.8/19.8/19.8/19.8/18.7 to accomodate the redistribution of Learning V effects to the implants.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.27 04:07:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Akita T on 27/11/2010 04:08:42
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Intigo Was Akita T always this annoying?
Lord yes. The problem is that he has this damnable knack for being right at the same time.
Originally by: Luminos I'm suprised your OCD didn't go nuts over the idea of changing the 20/20/20/20/19 to 19.8/19.8/19.8/19.8/18.7 to accomodate the redistribution of Learning V effects to the implants.
Eh, might as well left implants alone as is and changed base attributes to 20.3/20.3/20.3/20.3/19.2 in that case Or, better, 20.08/20.08/20.08/20.08/20.08 _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Luminos
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Posted - 2010.11.27 04:16:00 -
[122]
Ahh, but if you give the entire 0.5 bonus of a +5 implant to the base attributes, now you need to deduct an appropriate amount from the implants to compensate, turning them into +0.6, +1.7, +2.8, +3.9, +5.
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oldmanst4r
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.27 04:58:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good. One nineteen bad, all twenty good. All twenty good.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.11.27 07:21:00 -
[124]
It does seem odd that it'd be 20/20/20/20/19 rather than just throwing in that extra point and making them all 20s.
I'm not losing sleep over it, though. -----SIGNATURE-----
Originally by: CCP Ginger Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.27 08:24:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Kyra Felann I'm not losing sleep over it, though.
Well, no, but maybe you have dreams in which horrible extradimensional horrors want you to roll dice that go up to your base attributes and if you get "natural 20" on each, you survive, but alas, your last one only goes to 19... _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.11.27 08:47:00 -
[126]
The 'T' in Akita T stands for therapy. - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.27 14:43:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Vaal Erit The 'T' in Akita T stands for therapy.
The truth is blander than you can imagine. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.11.27 17:43:00 -
[128]
Asymmetrical ships, Asymmetrical brains. Eve.
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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DasDizzy
GoonWaffe
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Posted - 2010.11.27 18:05:00 -
[129]
Yeah, it does seem rather odd, but tbh, I couldnt care less, because lets face it, how many of us will utilize that point of charisma.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2010.11.27 18:11:00 -
[130]
Originally by: DasDizzy Yeah, it does seem rather odd, but tbh, I couldnt care less, because lets face it, how many of us will utilize that point of charisma.
aha! but there is a catch. it would be a point to charisma that can be redistibuted. but don't tell anyone. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.27 20:18:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Originally by: DasDizzy Yeah, it does seem rather odd, but tbh, I couldnt care less, because lets face it, how many of us will utilize that point of charisma.
aha! but there is a catch. it would be a point to charisma that can be redistibuted.
Precisely. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.11.27 20:43:00 -
[132]
Still fighting the good fight I see.
<3
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Hafsjor
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Posted - 2010.11.29 10:23:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Akita T
_
Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 maximum total possible. After the change, you will have 39+60 = 99 base + 25 implants = 124 max total, or an overall loss of 1.4 attribute points. Even if you ignore the skill that very few people train to L5, Presence, that's still a loss of 0.3 attribute points.
Ok, it's not a big drop (barely over 1% at a maximum and negligible for long-term "sensible" plans), but its still a drop nevertheless. ...
I must ask this question but why are you equating implants with attribute points? Aren't your calculations flawed as implants != attribute points?
So, if you exclude the implants you will get: Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds)*1.1 learning = 97.7 max total. After the change, you will have 39 + 60 = 99 total
So, what CCP is giving you is 2.7 points that you are then free to add implants on top.
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.11.29 10:42:00 -
[134]
@Hafsjor the "Learning" skill makes no difference between attribute points coming from attributes/learning skills and those coming from implants. In the current state it provides a boost to attribute points from implants, so implants will be "worse" after the patch.
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Gravemind GER
Caldari Swords OF TYR Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.11.29 10:49:00 -
[135]
i demand 25/25/25/25/25 instead of 20/20/20/20/20 or 20/20/20/20/19
sorry.. but this is really childish to complain about JUST ONE POINT! go back under your rock where you came from. you deserve the darwin award for whining about ONE POINT. U SIR ARE A SPAI! |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.11.29 10:51:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Mashie Saldana on 29/11/2010 10:54:02 Akita T, have you been unsubscribed for a period of time as I would have expected your average SP to be higher than 2,025.17SP/h?
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.29 10:51:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Hafsjor Aren't your calculations flawed as implants != attribute points?
Implants _ARE_ from all practical standpoints extra attribute points, just temporary ones, until you go "pop". Plugging in a fresh +X implant has exactly the same effect as adding +X base points into that attribute or training X levels of the relevant attribute-bound learning.
Quote: Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds)*1.1 learning = 97.7 max total. After the change, you will have 39 + 60 = 99 total So, what CCP is giving you is 2.7 points that you are then free to add implants on top.
Don't you mean 1.3 instead of 2.7 ? Since last I checked 99-97.7 = 1.3, also, (39+25+25)*1.1=97.9, NOT 97.7, so it's actually 1.1 instead of your claimed 2.7... A full set of +5 implants did not grant just an extra 25 to the total effective attribute value, but an extra 27.5, thanks to the "learning" skill. Now that skill is gone, so take it how you want : either they're not adding enough attributes, or they needlessly nerfed implants, your choice. Fact remains, total max is ever so slightly lower, NOT higher. They "gave" at least 1.1 extra, they "took" up to 2.5, overall, at worst, it's the same as taking 1.4 away.
Anyway, that's not the main point. The main point is that 20/20/20/20/19 for new people is just ugly, and that 20/20/20/20/20 is much more aesthetically pleasing. The fact the maximum possible attribute total is closer to the previous maximum total, that's just a nice bonus.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.11.29 11:00:00 -
[138]
I support this... why isn't it in Assembly Hall? I want to check the little thumbs up box!
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Join Reavers |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.29 11:02:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana Akita T, have you been unsubscribed for a period of time as I would have expected your average SP to be higher than 2,025.17?
Only for several weeks between my first paid month after the end of trial and my second ever payment (had some trouble with the card company, long and irrelevant story), that barely even begins to explain it.
Back in the good ole' days when I started, you needed L5 basic learning as prerequisite for advanced learnings. Also, +3 implants were already quite expensive, let alone anything higher (plus, we had no Drakes and no rigs, so making ISK was much more difficult). And let's not forget the absence of a skill queue.
I sat at L4 basic learnings without advanceds at all for a good while, even if I could borderline afford to purchase them. Took a while before I took the time to get them trained. Heck, I only trained the advanceds to L5 THIS year... Spent a lot of time with +3s in my head. An even longer time with +4s. I only purchased the +5s about halfway my character life. The lack of a skillqueue (and EVEMon not being the popular tool it is today) also meant there would be times when I was training nothing at all. Put head to head, those "dead times" might easily sum up to at least one full month, if not longer.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.29 11:09:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Anubis Xian I support this... why isn't it in Assembly Hall? I want to check the little thumbs up box!
The funny thing is, this was already voted for in the CSM. It already made the list, and it was already presented to CCP. To be even more accurate, this here is just a PORTION of what the CSM has asked for. A mere third, to be more precise.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modify_or_Remove_Learning_Skills_(CSM) What the CSM asked for was not only 100 attribute points total (with 15 instead of 14 remappable), but also the ability to push one extra point in the max attribute (to match the current max 33 in highest attribute, so instead of max 27 base, making it max 28 base) AND one bonus free remap for everybody.
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.11.29 12:36:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Rethguad Lamina This is an outrage.
I, too, am outraged! Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum.
That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face. |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.11.29 13:14:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Akita T I sat at L4 basic learnings without advanceds at all for a good while, even if I could borderline afford to purchase them. Took a while before I took the time to get them trained. Heck, I only trained the advanceds to L5 THIS year... Spent a lot of time with +3s in my head. An even longer time with +4s. I only purchased the +5s about halfway my character life.
Ah ok, that explains why my Achura alt that is 2 weeks older than you got a fair bit more SP with mainly 5/4 in learning skills.
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2010.11.29 13:38:00 -
[143]
Hmm I'm not at all convinced by the argument for having that extra point given out as an attribute point. You only miss out on that point if you use implants, right? It's because the learning skill applies to the implant also. With this change, you'll no longer get that, so you are worse off than before .. however adding that point to a base attribute to make up for it is in effect giving everyone, regardless of whether what implant they used before this change or if they even had implants, the benefit of it. You could argue that "as implants are almost mandatory, even a full 5 set of +2s would result in an extra 1 attribute point overall (5*2.2 instead of just 5*2 that you get after this change.) I don't think that's a very good argument though.
More importantly, though, your post is amusing in it's twist, trying to say it's from some OCD point of view ;) but I think you'll find if CCP actually did compensate for this properly though anyone who hates the uneven 20/20/20/20/19 would hate the 20.2/20.2/20.2/19.2 even more? Simply adding all the .2s up and putting it into charisma to make it an even 20 spread is also disingenuous as it gives a FULL point to 1 attribute, and none to the rest, which is NOT what the learning skill did previously. You would infact be changing the 'mechanic' of it and the result of what the skill did. It'd not be a straight up fair swap, it would be an extra point entirely, into Charisma no less which has for a long time now been 1 attribute point less than the others.
There's also the argument for having the extra attribute as a re-map point. This not only falls into the same fault as the above idea, that it would give you +1 attribute instead of +.2 to each, but it also makes that attribute even more 'powerful' by allowing you to put it anywhere you want.
None of these solutions are a straight swap. Having the learning skill bonus applied directly to implants I think WOULD be a straight swap, because then you gain the bonus only when you have implants, which is exactly what would happen under the current learning system. It would look really crap from a design perspective though, imagine having "+5.2" implants ?? It's a daft idea to implement a new, tidier system that's meant to change and improve the game, and then stick in some weird numbers which will make anyone who is not familiar with the history of learning skills and the change scratch their head thinking "wtf is that all about?"
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.29 13:51:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Akita T on 29/11/2010 13:55:19
Originally by: Caldariftw123 There's also the argument for having the extra attribute as a re-map point. This not only falls into the same fault as the above idea, that it would give you +1 attribute instead of +.2 to each, but it also makes that attribute even more 'powerful' by allowing you to put it anywhere you want.
Current version min/max remap max attribute value : (5/15 min/max remap + 5 basic learnings + 5 adv learning + 5 implant ) * 1.1 learning = 22min/33max CCP announced change min/max remap max attrib. value : 12 compensation + 5/15 min/max remap + 5 implant = 22min/32max CSM proposed version : 12 compensation + 5/16 min/max remap + 5 implant = 22min/33max
...plus 4 remappable base points in other attributes of choice in either of the three cases (which are actually worth 4.4 in the current version but only 4.0 in both changed versions).
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2010.11.29 14:11:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 29/11/2010 14:15:29 "As you can clearly see, this damages focused remapped attributes the most (and in all cases does not affect minimized remapped attributes at all), and is therefore also the most likely one to influence people, since it only requires ONE attribute as focus (which for most people would be Per)."
Using the power of a notepad and a calculator, I can see that under the current system, including base attributes, a specialised remap would give you 30.8/41.8 attributes, and the new system gives you 30/40 is that correct? (8+5+5+5+5)*1.1 and (8+15+5+5+5)*1.1 and the new system is 8+12+5+5 and 8+15+5+5 ?
Looking at it from this viewpoint, I can see how specialised max learning and +5 implant people would be worse off. It's interesting. Maybe I am wrong then about some of what I said.
My new line of thinking would be to allow extra an re-map point or so to make up for it? I would not like to see 20/20/20/20/20 as I think if you're going to solve the discrepancy between old and new systems it should be done properly. I don't think basing this new learning system off of someone who has ALL Vs and a full set of +5 implants though, whilst this may be fairer to them it is going too far away from what would be the median of attributes. That is my opinion on whether they should make the change proposed or not, even if it is at the expense of some max skilling.
"Another alternative would be to only remove 10 of the 11 learning skills (those related to attributes) and leaving "Learning" itself in play."
This would be an elegant solution, in fact, but again I don't think it would accurately reflect what the average person has actually trained. It would be an even bigger boost to those without all Vs. Is that right or wrong? I think they shouldn't, maybe they should? That's an opinion matter, tbh. If they did this and did NOT grant it to everybody at the start, and you could CHOOSE to train it, that imo would but a great compromise.
FFS So many edits, my edits screwed up the post because it ran out of characters so I've removed some of the quoting :S
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.29 14:23:00 -
[146]
For the first part, you got some of the numbers wrong (the correct numbers are in the post you quoted), but yeah, that's generally the gist of it.
Also, no, the "leave in and grant all L5 learning" alternative would not be at all detrimental to any people at all, it would in fact lead to slightly higher effective attributes for EVERYBODY (as opposed to slight decreases for some people in the currently announced version). It would also help those without Learning 5 the most (since it's "SP out of nowhere"), but that's about it... and even that can be corrected by granting everybody extra SP to cover the difference (basically, refund full SP for all learning skills, INCLUDING "Learning", but instead of removing "Learning", set it to L5 for everybody).
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2010.11.29 14:24:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Akita T ... Another alternative would be to only remove 10 of the 11 learning skills (those related to attributes) and leaving "Learning" itself in play, but granting it to L5 for everybody from character creation (and to everybody else that doesn't already have it to L5), and only increasing base attributes by 10 instead of 12. This would most accurately mirror the current situation with the least bit of SP remaining "in play".
one of the goal is most likely to get rid of percentage increase. besides, having skill automatically at L5 makes little sense. left to players choice, everybody would learn it.
it could be calculated internally, adding 66 skill points per attribute, per hour, instead of 60, while keeping attribute whole numbers. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.11.29 14:30:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes it could be calculated internally, adding 66 skill points per attribute, per hour, instead of 60, while keeping attribute whole numbers.
Yeah, it's practically the same thing, indeed. Some people would raise a few eyebrows, but it's probably better that way. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.11.29 14:32:00 -
[149]
One nice thing with this change is that the attributes will be even integers so whatever number that is showing up as attributes in game are the real numbers so no more 20.9 showing up as 20 and so on.
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Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2010.11.29 14:36:00 -
[150]
I'll tell you why, because one more redistributable skill point means one redistributable skill point that everyone needs to redistribute. That means reworking the remap system for one time only use to allow it or a free remap for everyone that breaks the limitation imposed on the system (one year) big time and would involve more coding and QA tests. Given the short frame to work it, CCP has gone the more hassle free way, making the changes as clean as they could, which is a good thing given the last patches' cascade and how this change will mess with every single capsuleer in New Eden. That said, it's such a small difference that I won't mind it either way it goes and since we all get the same final attributes, the field is leveled for all. If you suffer from OCD I'm sure you have bigger problems than a few numbers on a game, and if you trained the skills to five (only case you would lose a few skillpoints a year) you should have already obtained the benefit (except in some bad luck cases if you have just finished, but bad luck happens). To reiterate and make it clear, I'm not against nor in favor of it, I'm good either way, but as CCP said in the blog: Originally by: Blog WHY DIDN'T YOU DO (THING WHICH IS MORE COMPLICATED/EXTENSIVE, EVEN IF ONLY BY A SMALL MARGIN)?
As above, we have a tight timeframe here, so we're deliberately doing the smallest possible set of changes that seem fair and acceptable. We're sorry, but while your suggestion for completely redesigning the entire skills system from scratch is clearly hella awesome, we just don't have time.
Read it. Curiously enough I thought about the blog after writing the thing, not based on it. I don't see why this thread belongs here instead of as a comment on the blog's comment section. Also notice that they are prefectly conscient that a few players will train slightly slower: Quote: We didn't want anyone to come out of this change with a lower average training speed than they currently have (or at least, not by any noticeable amount).
So you can be damn sure that they have considered this option, as seen in here: Quote: While reading this you may find yourself thinking "wouldn't it be better if you..."; it's very likely that we've already thought of this and dismissed it because it increases the technical workload and therefore (by proxy) the deployment risk, and we don't have time for that sort of thing.
The 19 in charisma will also reinforce the notion that this is a game about spaceships when incarna comes with all the charisma-based skills that are trained at a lower pace from scratch. Keep your skillpoint bank saved for it, evil achura, then you will thank and multiply your effective skillpoints without being punished by the Charisma God for not offering him the right sacrifices.
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2010.11.29 14:40:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 29/11/2010 14:28:16
For the first part, you got some of the numbers wrong (the correct numbers are in the post you quoted), but yeah, that's generally the gist of it.
Also, no, the "leave in and grant all L5 learning" alternative would not be at all detrimental to any people at all, it would in fact lead to slightly higher effective attributes for EVERYBODY (as opposed to slight decreases for some people in the currently announced version). It would also help those without Learning 5 the most (since it's "SP out of nowhere"), but that's about it... and even that can be corrected by granting everybody extra SP to cover the difference (basically, refund full SP for all learning skills, INCLUDING "Learning", but instead of removing "Learning", set it to L5 for everybody).
Also, leaving it non-maxed and trainable would kind of defeat the purpose of removing learnings in the first place, by simply just leaving 4.76% of it in place as it used to be. Granted, a major reduction to the point of not really being all that detrimental at all (especially since training it to L4 with the currently proposed attributes would take about a day tops even with the worst possible remap), it's still the same kind of problem they wanted to eliminate in the first place (a skill that does absolutely nothing else but help you train faster).
Ah I didn't mean it was detrimental to people to have the learning skill granted at all Vs? That's obviously not true. What I meant was that the solution of giving everyone learning V WOULD solve the problem of people that are going to lose sp/hr under the new system, but it would be at the cost of granting even more bonus to everyone else - the minority get what's fair, and the majority get EVEN MORE. I think that's a push too far in that direction.
By leaving it trainable you allow people the choice to do it or not. There is no bonus training speed anymore so getting it right at the start is not quite as important as it is under the current system, you can leave it a bit and train it later at the same speed you would have as opposed to half speed if you leave the current learning skills untrained at the beginning. It is also less of a priority because people will already be training at NEARLY max training speed under the new system by default, the learning skill whilst giving a bonus that's best to get fairly early, it's not like you can't delay it or even just get it to level III or similar at the start, whilst you sample the rest of the game and get to know it. It's not quite as 'mandatory' as current learning skills are.
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Sieges
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Posted - 2010.11.29 17:38:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Akita T Make new players start at 20/20/20/20/20 instead of 20/20/20/20/19. MY OCD DEMANDS IT !!!
I agree with this message
/signed /OCD
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irion felpamy
Minmatar Assisted Genocide Unprovoked Aggression
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Posted - 2010.11.30 13:08:00 -
[153]
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Sader Rykane I vote we just reduce Akita T's stats to 19/19/19/19/19...
You know, to keep his OCD under control.
CCP ban this post
Why unlike you he came up with a viable solution to the OP's problem.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.01 03:26:00 -
[154]
Originally by: irion felpamy
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Sader Rykane I vote we just reduce Akita T's stats to 19/19/19/19/19... You know, to keep his OCD under control.
CCP ban this post
Why unlike you he came up with a viable solution to the OP's problem.
20 looks nicer than 19. Oh, and I also hate prices that go "19.95" too. 20, dammit, 20 ! _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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w0rmy
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2010.12.01 03:34:00 -
[155]
20/20/20/20/20 makes sense.
Nice round figures
Originally by: CCP Oveur I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
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irion felpamy
Minmatar Assisted Genocide Unprovoked Aggression
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Posted - 2010.12.01 11:02:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: irion felpamy
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Sader Rykane I vote we just reduce Akita T's stats to 19/19/19/19/19... You know, to keep his OCD under control.
CCP ban this post
Why unlike you he came up with a viable solution to the OP's problem.
20 looks nicer than 19. Oh, and I also hate prices that go "19.95" too. 20, dammit, 20 !
50 looks better than 20 but you can't have that either, be thankfull you are not getting 17.343434 with a random 10-30% bonus that changes each day at downtime.
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Vladimir Nabokov
Rapid Response Rescue and Repair
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Posted - 2010.12.01 11:34:00 -
[157]
I didn't really bother with the math but even 20 does look nicer than a 19 at the end. Support for OP.
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fanaka
Full Metal Gimp Suit
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Posted - 2010.12.01 12:02:00 -
[158]
some people need to get a grip seriously, what are you a ****ing collective of rain man or something /dropscocktailsticks |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.03 21:18:00 -
[159]
Originally by: fanaka some people need to get a grip seriously, what are you a ****ing collective of rain man or something /dropscocktailsticks
Reality check : we're playing submarines-with-spreadsheets-in-space-Online... so, yeah. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2010.12.03 21:31:00 -
[160]
Thank you for the giant yellow letters. I only read that much.
And really, stop whining about the skill chang...oh wait
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.03 21:37:00 -
[161]
Originally by: fanaka some people need to get a grip seriously, what are you a ****ing collective of rain man or something /dropscocktailsticks
who isn't around here?
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.15 18:58:00 -
[162]
Hooray for not having any effect at all _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Alexis Sachs
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Posted - 2010.12.15 19:00:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Akita T Hooray for not having any effect at all
Lol, you tried. I'd have preferred your solution, but such is life and we move on.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.15 19:04:00 -
[164]
oh come on! you should be used to having your ideas shot down by now
too bad you couldn't make isk on it this time though
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hired goon
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Posted - 2010.12.15 19:05:00 -
[165]
Hey everyone look at me, I'm Akita T and I like to necro my own threadnaughts
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.12.15 19:12:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Akita T Hooray for not having any effect at all
Now let's see how that papercut-thingy of yours works out.. in 2-3 years maybe?
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.15 19:18:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Tres Farmer Now let's see how that papercut-thingy of yours works out.. in 2-3 years maybe?
I see you're an optimist _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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ZenSun
Total Mayhem. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 19:18:00 -
[168]
With great expansions, comes great whineability (yep, just made a word)
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