|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2014
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 13:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dregol wrote:Anslo wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Octoven wrote:Your point is valid; however, if they enforce that penalty on AFKing a complex then they must do the same with any other form of AFK actions Says who? You're talking about two totally different things here. No, you're wrong. AFK mining, AFK plexing, AFK missioning, AFK god damn ******* industry then should be policed as it makes isk while afk. Even if tending to the ship to empty ore or change drones or get new ones that popped, it's still an afk action while making isk. So no, you're wrong. Goon. Wrong. If you'd take the time to read this thread, you'd realize that there was a broken complex whereby people could AFK and have drones kill respawns 23/7. This is /not/ working as intended. AFKing through something that isn't respawning (regular complexes) is fine. What CCP is addressing is a mechanic whereby you can do nothing for hours on end and continue to make isk. My point from earlier still stands: isk should not be as easy to make as it is in high sec. I'm glad CCP is actively fixing bugs/broken mechanics, but there are mechanics far more broken than this.
I'm merely going to quote this. It's not going to please everyone and certainly not going to please those who were making isk while going about their lives doing things other than playing EVE actively but at the end of the day we're only referring to situations in THIS PARTICULAR CASE where you could in theory generate isk 24 hours a day without ever touching your computer. This does not apply to every situation you might perhaps maybe possibly use sentry drones in and nobody's going to ban your accounts because you went to get a cup of coffee.
There were however cases where this was being abused and so we're stating publically that abusing it is wrong and from this point forward the automated systems will handle it.
Protip for the future: if your computer is logged in 24 (or way more than a person can) hours a day making money in a way that is meant to be active and you're not in front of it you're probably doing something wrong "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2016
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 13:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dregol wrote:mkint wrote: Probably should have mentioned that there's a bugged complex in the news post. I was all like "I wonder if afk missioning is on the chopping block next, or rookies mining in industrials, or etc." It sounds like I'm not the only one who was confused by it.
Pretty much this. I was confused/angry as **** when I read the initial post. Sreegs it'd probably be a good idea to update your post and say "there was a bugged complex, we're fixing it; any time you stay logged in for 23/7 and continue to make isk without being at your computer will be considered botting and will be bannable." It doesn't mention what complex it was, or where it was, but people that have no idea wtf the bug was will have some explaination and you won't ge the reaction from those who are uninformed.
"Specific examples of this include such activities as warping into a particular room in a complex, dropping sentry drones, then going to do your laundry or perhaps watch a 24 hour Lazytown marathon."
I don't believe it's limited to a single particular complex and to be frank if I did do that and they found somewhere else that it worked I'd have to deal with 700 petitions of rules lawyering. In this case what we're specifically concerned about is the ability to make money during long periods of being AFK performing activities which are meant to be active.
:edit: I'll try to clarify in a bit in the news item. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2016
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 13:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tyke Orlieveit wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I'm merely going to quote this. It's not going to please everyone and certainly not going to please those who were making isk while going about their lives doing things other than playing EVE actively but at the end of the day we're only referring to situations in THIS PARTICULAR CASE where you could in theory generate isk 24 hours a day without ever touching your computer. This does not apply to every situation you might perhaps maybe possibly use sentry drones in and nobody's going to ban your accounts because you went to get a cup of coffee.
There were however cases where this was being abused and so we're stating publically that abusing it is wrong and from this point forward the automated systems will handle it.
Protip for the future: if your computer is logged in 24 (or way more than a person can) hours a day making money in a way that is meant to be active and you're not in front of it you're probably doing something wrong
Question based on this if I could Sreegs: What about cases where the EVE client is running on say, a home machine, and you are using remote desktop / remote viewing tools to perform eve activities ( an example being the ever favorite mining. ) Would this fall under a similar catchment as a bannable behaviour?
No, and you wouldn't be able to abuse that for the extended periods of time where it becomes ridiculous. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2016
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 13:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Darth Skorpius wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:In this case what we're specifically concerned about is the ability to make money during long periods of being AFK performing activities which are meant to be active. Well that means AFK mining is safe then!
If you are aware of a way for miners to mine AFK with no third party programs 24 hours a day without being at their machines and managing cargo then I'm all ears. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2019
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 13:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dregol wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:[
"Specific examples of this include such activities as warping into a particular room in a complex, dropping sentry drones, then going to do your laundry or perhaps watch a 24 hour Lazytown marathon."
I don't believe it's limited to a single particular complex and to be frank if I did do that and they found somewhere else that it worked I'd have to deal with 700 petitions of rules lawyering. In this case what we're specifically concerned about is the ability to make money during long periods of being AFK performing activities which are meant to be active.
:edit: I'll try to clarify in a bit in the news item. The "going to do your laundry" bit implies that doing any form of ratting whilst not sitting directly at your computer is now illegal. I mean, what if I have a dominix in an anom, and I go to get a drink or make a sandwich? With your definition, it makes it sound like any and all drone activity while you're not at your computer is a bannable offence.
UGH, yeah I guess. I'll edit it. This situation really only applies in rather extreme cases. It's impossible for you to be impacted by this if you're engaging in normal gameplay. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2019
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 14:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Dregol wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Dregol wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:[
"Specific examples of this include such activities as warping into a particular room in a complex, dropping sentry drones, then going to do your laundry or perhaps watch a 24 hour Lazytown marathon."
I don't believe it's limited to a single particular complex and to be frank if I did do that and they found somewhere else that it worked I'd have to deal with 700 petitions of rules lawyering. In this case what we're specifically concerned about is the ability to make money during long periods of being AFK performing activities which are meant to be active.
:edit: I'll try to clarify in a bit in the news item. The "going to do your laundry" bit implies that doing any form of ratting whilst not sitting directly at your computer is now illegal. I mean, what if I have a dominix in an anom, and I go to get a drink or make a sandwich? With your definition, it makes it sound like any and all drone activity while you're not at your computer is a bannable offence. UGH, yeah I guess. I'll edit it. This situation really only applies in rather extreme cases. It's impossible for you to be impacted by this if you're engaging in normal gameplay. Yeah, from the thread I've gathered that. When you edit it, feel free to link the blog to this thread to help clarify
It's republished now "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2019
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 14:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ghost Frog wrote:At the risk of escalating this into a shitstorm, I'd like to get clarification about freighters. I have done quite a bit of AFK freighter piloting. In fact, I'm willing to bet the overwhelming majority of EVE players do freighter runs 100% AFK. Will you be ******* with us as well? Because the core of the logic being applied here would seem to fit my situation.
No, the core of the logic that's being attributed to it would :)
The core of the logic that's actually being attributed here is that this only applies to fringe cases and anyone engaging in normal gameplay is completely unaffected.
Clearly the news item wasn't clear enough about that so I've had it edited. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2019
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 14:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Velarra wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:The core of the logic that's actually being applied here is that this only applies to fringe cases and anyone engaging in normal gameplay is completely unaffected.
Clearly the news item wasn't clear enough about that so I've had it edited. Within the context of this ruling, what is normal game play as regards shipping of goods? Fill up Freighter / Industrial with goods in cargo, set AP route for 50 jumps. How many of those jumps can be done fully AP'd? How many does a pilot have to be at the keys for?
Nothing in this news article even remotely hints at anything remotely related to hauling or really any other activity that isn't farming plexes while unattended. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2020
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Brokers Clone wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:If you are aware of a way for miners to mine AFK with no third party programs 24 hours a day without being at their machines and managing cargo then I'm all ears. Enter belt with uuber-tanked ship and some nice shiney drones Wait Watch rats spawn See drones kill rats... get bounty Wait Watch rats spawn See drones kill rats... get bounty Wait Watch rats spawn See drones kill rats... get bounty Wait Watch rats spawn See drones kill rats... get bounty etc...etc...etc... This Sreegs, you obviously don't play the game anymore mate.
Except that he stated mining then used ratting as an example, which would certainly still be detected and fall into the same category. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2020
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Lucas Quaan wrote:Damion Rayne wrote:I run plexes in 0.0 when I was in Test and Dark Rising and you are now effectively telling me that running those plexs with a drone boat, and going afk, is against the rules? It's not and you are an idiot for thinking so. You're an idiot for thinking it's wrong, I've got a child to take care of. You're telling me I'm not allowed to put out sentry drones, run a single plex afk, move to the next plex and do it again? What kinda fascist control crap is this? Well since i can't be at the key's 100% of my play time now, and Sreegs will ban me or something, If I walk away for 10 minuets, suppose I just stop logging in unless I can be at the keyboard for 6 hours straight. I'm sure my wife and 2 month old will enjoy my lack of being able to walk away from the computer. Ya know, because Id' rather net have "administrative action" taken against my account for walkign away for an hour.
What you're referring to was never mentioned in the news item. You're deciding for yourself what the news item means and applying it in a way that is not what is discussed. This has been edited in the news item and repeated more than once in this thread, but you're still deciding that I'm staring through the internet at you waiting for you to walk away from your PC instead of what the content of the news article is really about which is extreme and isolated scenarios where people are able to login at downtime, release sentries, and go do something else until the next downtime. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2020
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:100% passive income has been a part of this game since datacore agents were invented, and especially since PI was introduced. Both allow you to make money with less "at the keyboard"ness than this.
It's not a team security issue and team security has no business declaring it botting: it should be punted to the GM team and the game design team for exploit determinations and fixing respectively. The GM team exists to make consistent decisions that respect previous decisions on how the game can be played, and to provide the proper layers of asking things be looked at again by a fresh set of eyes. It has no business being the province of an algorithm gone rogue.
Nobody ever said anything about passive income. Every example of passive income mentioned thus far has been designed purposely to be so. This was not. It becomes a security issue when it is egregious enough to be virtually identical to botting. The GM team is aware of this news item and the details and the game design team has committed to fixing the problem.
If you have some insight that I don't as to what is or isn't my team's responsibility however please feel free to clue me in because it seems to differ from that of my boss. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2021
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Damion Rayne wrote:Brokers Clone wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:If you are aware of a way for miners to mine AFK with no third party programs 24 hours a day without being at their machines and managing cargo then I'm all ears. Enter belt with uuber-tanked ship and some nice shiney drones Wait Watch rats spawn See drones kill rats... get bounty Wait Watch rats spawn See drones kill rats... get bounty Wait Watch rats spawn See drones kill rats... get bounty Wait Watch rats spawn See drones kill rats... get bounty etc...etc...etc... This Sreegs, you obviously don't play the game anymore mate. Except that he stated mining then used ratting as an example, which would certainly still be detected and fall into the same category. It's the same bloody thing! Let me give you an example, I park my hulk in a belt, target roids, put out some drones and practically go afk watching tv on net flix while only every so often switching clients to have my alt come pick up a load. The main account is for all intents, AFK..pretty sure the way I understand how you're handling things lately, you'd ban us from doing this to eventually. I mean come on...what's the exact details of this? What do you define as "Normal Game-play", because I'd like to know. I've been online for 12-13 hour sessions before, and I know other people have.
And how many times have you been banned for this? "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2023
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
cheese monkey wrote:Sreegs... Before you alienate your entire player/customer base i suggest you withdraw this and have a think a bit longer. The mere fact that u have edited it 3 times is negligence at best! Its ok to admit you were wrong and say sorry. If anything doing so would GAIN you some respect.
It was edited once because people misinterpreted my comments to mean that we were banning activity that we aren't. This seems to still be the case. There is a very specific situation which caused this detection which is essentially warping into a particular cosmos plex at downtime, dropping your sentry drones, applying reps to them then leaving your computer until the next downtime. This is possible because in that particular room the drones respawn.
This is going on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That is bad. If you haven't already heard from us then to date you haven't been doing it. However, there have been cases where people HAVE been doing this and complained that there was no announcement put out about it. Here is the announcement.
This potentially impacts more than the one COSMOS plex which is why the specific COSMOS plex was not mentioned in the OP. Were I to mention it then they would move to a new plex and we'd be dealing with the same rage from them because THIS IS A DIFFERENT PLEX. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2023
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:coolzero wrote: it does now at list in a limited way..... mack have 31000m3 ore hold.....this will still take some time to fill while you can go afk while ice mining.
CCP sanctioned AFKness with a CCP set maximum time limit. This is 24 hours, CCP doesn't want 24 hours nor in this way so they are saying you can't do it until they find a solution. This particular form of AFK play has been declared an exploit. If you have feeling on other CCP sanctioned AFK activities it has nothing to do with this declared exploit. Octoven wrote: Your point is valid; however, if they enforce that penalty on AFKing a complex then they must do the same with any other form of AFK actions which is just too much ******* monitoring IMHO they need to focus more on third party programs and fixing their own mechanics instead of saying, "we call party foul, we cant change ti yet but you arent allowed to use it till we do."
No they don't. All they need to moniter is a specific tactic that is used to keep the sentry drones undamaged in only a few of static complex's. Nothing else is needed for this particular exploit. As for calling foul but saying we can't fix it yet, that is the same for all exploits. The Wormhole neg tracking, POS Bowling, Ect. True enough they DONT have to, but I mean if they are going to go out of the way to look for a specific afk action that fits a broad spectrum of pilots, it only stands to reason they would cover other forms of afk as well
We aren't looking for that action. We're looking for bots. In this case the behavior is similar and it is being abused 24 hours a day. Therefore, we are treating it the same. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2024
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nobody ever said anything about passive income. Every example of passive income mentioned thus far has been designed purposely to be so. This was not. It becomes a security issue when it is egregious enough to be virtually identical to botting. The GM team is aware of this news item and the details and the game design team has committed to fixing the problem.
If you have some insight that I don't as to what is or isn't my team's responsibility however please feel free to clue me in because it seems to differ from that of my boss. There was no botting issue here. This was started by your algorithm thinking that someone was a bot, them challenging that, and the decision being made to decide they were a bot despite no botting software, macro software, game hacks, or the like. Instead of fixing the issue with the botting algorithm (suggested fix: if the client isn't sending server commands it's probably not botting because it's not doing anything), team security decided to take over running enforcement of edge cases where 100% legitimate game behavior allows for something the game designers decide is a bad idea. There's no good reason for team security to be involved because they don't know what has/hasn't been decided in the past, they don't have layers of review to handle hard cases fairly (if something's a hard case, like 100% legitimate game behavior doing something unexpected you want several sets of eyes on it reviewing it independently, such as regular and senior GMs). Team Security should deal with stuff the GMs are incapable of handling: botting detection, RMT, hacks, and the like that does not involve 100% in-game behavior. Things involving pure in-game behavior is what the GM team is designed to handle and it's their job to handle. As for the "designed/non-designed" thing (which is nonsense: half of EVE is about doing things that were not designed, from hotdrops to defensive SBUs), here's this: Say I idle in a NC. system with the name "down with goons" and a bio saying all donations go to fighting goonswarm in some verifiable way, say by a public api (though I keep a percentage, making it personal income). Every so often people go "damn straight down with those goons" and send me money. Am I a bot? I'm just parked in space, cloaked. I suspect I would be, because I'm logged into game making money and the combination of the two would trigger your algorithm (since it clearly doesn't take into account failing to send any commands at all to the server). Hell, I make passive income every day from simply holding various items that will appreciate in value: fortunately your algorithms don't detect that sort of thing or I might get banned for holding guidance systems as they steadily appreciate in value even if I'm unsubbed.
Except that the strawman you're presenting isn't the situation we're discussing or saying we're going to be handling and has no bearing or relevance on this particular discussion. We would not be having this conversation based on that activity.
The activity we ARE discussing is identical in every aspect other than involving a 3rd party piece of software to botting. Therefore, until Design can fix it we are not giving people passes when the sensors are tripped.
This might be the 6th time I've said that in this thread. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2024
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
highonpop wrote:CCP could just get rid on infinite respawns
TADA!
Problem solved
That would certainly fix this particular issue yes. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2024
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:cheese monkey wrote:Sreegs... Before you alienate your entire player/customer base i suggest you withdraw this and have a think a bit longer. The mere fact that u have edited it 3 times is negligence at best! Its ok to admit you were wrong and say sorry. If anything doing so would GAIN you some respect. It was edited once because people misinterpreted my comments to mean that we were banning activity that we aren't. This seems to still be the case. There is a very specific situation which caused this detection which is essentially warping into a particular cosmos plex at downtime, dropping your sentry drones, applying reps to them then leaving your computer until the next downtime. This is possible because in that particular room the drones respawn. This is going on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That is bad. If you haven't already heard from us then to date you haven't been doing it. However, there have been cases where people HAVE been doing this and complained that there was no announcement put out about it. Here is the announcement. This potentially impacts more than the one COSMOS plex which is why the specific COSMOS plex was not mentioned in the OP. Were I to mention it then they would move to a new plex and we'd be dealing with the same rage from them because THIS IS A DIFFERENT PLEX. So what your saying is you havn't banned anyone for doing this yet? Because people have been doing this for years (very few of cause can do it because of the limited amount of these sites) I think it's fine that CCP now decides this isn't okay anymore, and change the mechanics so it can't be done anymore, but as long as you don't ban anyone for using these simple game mechanics (drop drones, rep them, go afk) You could simply make it so sentry drones got abandond or disconnected after 1 hour or so... that would fix the problem completly (and if people found a way around that, then they were cheating)
What I'm saying is that any bans that were applied (and they wouldhave been recent) will be undone but in the future they will not, as I stated in the news item. This only becomes a problem when it is abused. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2024
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: We aren't looking for that action. We're looking for bots. In this case the behavior is similar and it is being abused 24 hours a day. Therefore, we are treating it the same.
It's not a bot. It's 100% agreed its a NotBot. There's no reason for it to be treated as "the same" except that the algorithm to detect bots detected a NotBot as a bot. There was no reasoned decision to start treating cases like this where a NotBot is making money in a way that CCP has decided shouldn't be, and the bot detection algorithm changed to do so. Instead, the bot detection system decided a NotBot was a bot, and after proof was supplied the algorithm was wrong, the algorithm was redefined to be right. That's a bad policy and this should be given back to the GM team and the algorithm fixed.
The activity itself falls within the same philosophical context we place botting within. I get it you don't like it. You can't change that however. With botting we concern ourselves with more than the technical limitations but rather what types of behavior and automation we find unacceptable.
You can say that you prefer that we allow people to AFK farm complexes with sentry drones 24 hours a day and that's a position we'd disagree with, but it's a position.
It's really hard to respond with facts to completely made up scenarios so if we're to have a dialogue of this sort at any point in the future hopefully we can stick to what actually happened instead of how you've decided in your head the process went or how the reporting structure works. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2024
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
Brokers Clone wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Brokers Clone wrote:...Stuff... Wait Watch rats spawn See drones kill rats... get bounty etc...etc...etc... Except that he stated mining then used ratting as an example, which would certainly still be detected and fall into the same category. WOW. Dude, I am beginning to think that this is an issue that is going to need CSM input.. I mean.... there are LOTS of cases where Rats spawn.... and lots of people sit and wait (at PC or away) There are mining ships that mine all day long, unattended (with alts or team members lugging away can contents from time to time) If ANY of this, NON-BOTTING, Activity is going to change, Fine BUT YOU NEED TO SAY SO IN 70 point Font, Everywhere And I think you might want to ring the CSM
And none of them fall within this category. Feel free to alert the CSM. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2027
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Octoven wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
And how many times have you been banned for this?
Obviously he hasnt been banned any since this new policy hasnt been implemented before today so why should he be banned? Yes, I see it the same way. I mean your account can sit there for 24 hours ratting belts and do nothing else. Just tank up and set the drones out on aggressive. Now your making bounty you can go out and have a dinner and a movie, do some shopping. I mean your making money on a mechanic that is never designed for passive income, should this be a bannable offense as well?
Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2027
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:04:00 -
[21] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: You can say that you prefer that we allow people to AFK farm complexes with sentry drones 24 hours a day and that's a position we'd disagree with, but it's a position.
It's really hard to respond with facts to completely made up scenarios so if we're to have a dialogue of this sort at any point in the future hopefully we can stick to what actually happened instead of how you've decided in your head the process went or how the reporting structure works.
I don't really. I do have a problem with an automated system going rogue and banning people for things that are different than what it is supposed to ban people for, and that failure being redefined into a success. The proper method for dealing with this exists and I want that used both now and in the future. If a GM had come out and said "we've investigated this and decided it shouldn't be allowed anymore", that'd be one thing. That happens - for example, pos bowling was legitimate and then after human review people decided it was a bad mechanic that needed to be banned until it was patched out. But players in that circumstance should have the ability to deal with a GM just like anyone doing anything else on the edge of the game rules but without violating the bots/hacks/macros/rmt rules. And those rules should be thought about ahead of time (by humans) and then applied prospectively.
If I'm reading what you're saying here correctly you're presuming that we haven't already gone over this internally. The system is doing precisely what it's supposed to do. The GMs are aware and were a part of this decision. Human people have reviewed each of the instances where this has already occurred. This instance fit within those rules because... IT ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPENING IT IS NOT NORMAL AND IT IS EVEN SPELLED OUT IN THE EULA AS NOT ACCEPTABLE.
The only difference between now and the halcyon days of yesteryear is that when I tell you something's bad I can actually monitor it to make sure you're not doing it with some accuracy. There may very well be other exploitable conditions in the future that will fall within this same ideal. Detecting bad activity is detecting bad activity. I don't really see how it's relevant that a particular system alerted us to the anomaly, regardless of its function. If we WERE measuring for this then we wouldn't have had to make this news item because it would already have been made.
"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2032
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch.
What amount of money changes NotBotting into Botting, given the exact same use of game mechanics?
Instead of inventing words that we don't use internally and applying them to your own perception of what we're looking at let's ask about behavior which is what we usually talk about publically. In that case behavior which leads to no tangible benefit is acceptable.
It's not about botting. It just so happens that this is the discussion we're usually having when we're talking about this type of behavior.
:edit: In this case someone was making significant income running their PC 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The system designed to detect that did. Enter news item. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2036
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
Octoven wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Octoven wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
And how many times have you been banned for this?
Obviously he hasnt been banned any since this new policy hasnt been implemented before today so why should he be banned? Yes, I see it the same way. I mean your account can sit there for 24 hours ratting belts and do nothing else. Just tank up and set the drones out on aggressive. Now your making bounty you can go out and have a dinner and a movie, do some shopping. I mean your making money on a mechanic that is never designed for passive income, should this be a bannable offense as well? Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch. Well you cant very well say that I mean you cant place a monetary value on AFKing. Especially after you blatantly stated, "The activity itself falls within the same philosophical context we place botting within. I get it you don't like it. You can't change that however. With botting we concern ourselves with more than the technical limitations but rather what types of behavior and automation we find unacceptable." Essentially the ideology of AFKing is to generate profit. Granted its small amounts; however, it still falls under the same philosophical idea. The moment you blurred the lines between botting and AFK actions is the moment that idea became more prevalent to apply to all forms of AFK income.
Nothing has changed about our philosophy as regards what we are or aren't looking for behavior-wise. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
101
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 01:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
First of all, people need to read this.
CCP Sreegs wrote:Dregol wrote:
If you'd take the time to read this thread, you'd realize that there was a broken complex whereby people could AFK and have drones kill respawns 23/7. This is /not/ working as intended. AFKing through something that isn't respawning (regular complexes) is fine. What CCP is addressing is a mechanic whereby you can do nothing for hours on end and continue to make isk.
My point from earlier still stands: isk should not be as easy to make as it is in high sec. I'm glad CCP is actively fixing bugs/broken mechanics, but there are mechanics far more broken than this.
I'm merely going to quote this. It's not going to please everyone and certainly not going to please those who were making isk while going about their lives doing things other than playing EVE actively but at the end of the day we're only referring to situations in THIS PARTICULAR CASE where you could in theory generate isk 24 hours a day without ever touching your computer. This does not apply to every situation you might perhaps maybe possibly use sentry drones in and nobody's going to ban your accounts because you went to get a cup of coffee. There were however cases where this was being abused and so we're stating publically that abusing it is wrong and from this point forward the automated systems will handle it. Protip for the future: if your computer is logged in 24 (or way more than a person can) hours a day making money in a way that is meant to be active and you're not in front of it you're probably doing something wrong
With that done, please ensure that any question you ask is relevant to THIS particular issue. CCP Sreegs has made it quite clear that his news story ONLY affects one particular form of AFK'ing and which one is mentioned quite clearly in the post he chose to quote.
Feel free to ask your questions, but remember that these forums operate with certain rules which can be found here, please make sure that when you post, you post following these rules.
I have cleaned this thread of as many off topic, trolling and personal attack posts as I can without completely destroying the thread; however if this behaviour continues I will lock it. While it is clear that many people are upset over this subject, please remember to post responsibly so that a proper discussion can take place and we can have a set of forums that we can all be proud of. Thank you for taking the time to read this, it is appreciated - ISD Type40. ISD Type40 Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
|
|