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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
Straahl
House of Dying Laggers.
0
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Posted - 2012.08.10 10:52:00 -
[391] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:You discover an issue with game design that allows for unintended consequences. Now you can
(A) Fix game design so the unintended consequences can no longer happen. (B) Leave the "trick" in the game but ban everyone who uses it.
Takes a special kind of developer to choose (B).
This issue has been well known for months and yet there is no proper fix (rework static plexes), instead we get a honeytrap because Sreegs just enjoys blowing up AT ships and banning unsuspecting players.
The very least you could do is give us an official database of behaviors that are consciously made possible by CCP but will get you banned - this news article and discussion thread will be buried in a few weeks (and compete for attention with many prior GD threads which generally declared this behavior legal) and smart players will keep rediscovering this "exploit" over and over.
edit: on a related note: the drama around the recent give-aways (many people missing the deadlines as they never read the news items) has clearly shown that login screen items and news are not a suitable way to reach out to the EVE playerbase. Using this medium to spread information that is vital to players is asinine.
QFT.
Although I agree with CCP that this is an exploit that needs to be addressed, it is being handled incorrectly. Have CCP already forgotten how their fanbase reacts to these types of dev posts? It's only been a year since the great WiS/Greed is Good SNAFU by CCP. I thought the dev team realized that writing vague and unclear posts about game mechanics turns into a massive shitstorm. People don't like being told how to play in the sandbox, especially when you give them the tools to do it through in-game mechanics.
The people asking about AFK gameplay in general aren't in the wrong by any means. This does pose a good question of the statute of limitations and how you (or CCP) define acceptable gameplay vs. unacceptable gameplay.
Honestly CCP, it would have just been better to fix this exploit and spare yourself the grief. Admit to yourselves a mistake was made with unintended gameplay consequences, correct the issue, and cut your losses. This is not how you win a vote of confidence with your customers.
Oh, and Vera is absolutely correct. Do not think for a moment that login screen links or news posts are sufficient to reach your playerbase, especially when it comes to bannable offenses. They are not. |
Real Poison
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
111
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Posted - 2012.08.10 10:55:00 -
[392] - Quote
i still wonder. What kind of NPCs do respawn at the same place for this to have worked? Can't be anything a normal player would find worth the while to shoot. How much money was made doing that? |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
177
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Posted - 2012.08.10 11:16:00 -
[393] - Quote
daddi0 wrote:2. it is NOT a pattern that produces more than could otherwise be acquired (the point of my guns blazing example)
If it is not the desired program behavior, FIX the PROGRAM. If is not desired bahavior to use the game the way it works, CHANGE the EULA outright, describe the conditions to which it applies specifically, and then start giving the necessary refunds as per section 5.C.3
except guns blazing can't happen 23/7 (subtract a few mins for set up time) for a long period of time. also the places where such setups happen are rather limited. running constant mulit-day at the computer not pressing buttons marathon, isn't exactly what I would call normal game play. hell even if you were "guns blazing" for multiple days
12/7 does seem to be an reasonable (Hell I'd probably buy 18/7 from some people) amount of time to play. but I will say I think that doing a small number of keystrokes and then not interacting for multiple hours is wrong. I said earlier that they could do some software things to get rid of the play style. throw in a jamming rat and that would shut down the remote rep, and have some of the other rats favor drones a bit more and that would kill the drones. and have a few frigs that swarm the drones to get under the tracking that need to be killed to get the respawn. and tbh with an EULA change I don't see much more than a few dozen caring, and less caring enough to the point of going for a refund. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
177
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Posted - 2012.08.10 11:17:00 -
[394] - Quote
Real Poison wrote:i still wonder. What kind of NPCs do respawn at the same place for this to have worked? Can't be anything a normal player would find worth the while to shoot. How much money was made doing that?
several posts above yours was a link that explained one location in great detail. another location is Otomainen |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
177
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Posted - 2012.08.10 11:20:00 -
[395] - Quote
Roime wrote:Replace NPC bounties with lootable tags/x thing, that are sold to NPC buy orders.
that works, or since they are pretty much tied to cosmos missions, reduce their bounties by 99% or something and add it all to mission rewards. |
dexington
121
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Posted - 2012.08.10 11:43:00 -
[396] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Roime wrote:Replace NPC bounties with lootable tags/x thing, that are sold to NPC buy orders. that works, or since they are pretty much tied to cosmos missions, reduce their bounties by 99% or something and add it all to mission rewards.
Why should i be forced to loot every wreck?.
Someone decided to exploit a bug, just ban him or give him a warning, I really don't care and i can't understand why everyone is butthurting. If you decide to engage in game play that is in the dark end of the grey area you have two options, play it safe and send a petition or don't and risk the ban. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1013
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Posted - 2012.08.10 11:43:00 -
[397] - Quote
Real Poison wrote:i still wonder. What kind of NPCs do respawn at the same place for this to have worked? Can't be anything a normal player would find worth the while to shoot. How much money was made doing that?
This post in this thread explained what was going. 29 billion isk / month was the income. Here's your sign... |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
177
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Posted - 2012.08.10 11:48:00 -
[398] - Quote
dexington wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Roime wrote:Replace NPC bounties with lootable tags/x thing, that are sold to NPC buy orders. that works, or since they are pretty much tied to cosmos missions, reduce their bounties by 99% or something and add it all to mission rewards. Why should i be forced to loot every wreck?. Someone decided to exploit a bug, just ban him or give him a warning, I really don't care and i can't understand why everyone is butthurting. If you decide to engage in game play that is in the dark end of the grey area you have two options, play it safe and send a petition or don't and risk the ban.
yea looting is a pain in the ass, but you can only do cosmos once right? and most of the cosmos static areas already have prenerfed bounties. |
Zapson
The Companionship Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
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Posted - 2012.08.10 12:16:00 -
[399] - Quote
Well since I think that my post was removed, without notification, I will make another one, with different content. A EULA is something not very strong in the EU, plus if you exclude paying customers from your service based on infringements which should be prohibited via the EULA but are NOT is entering a zone where the action of exclusion could be ruled illegal by a court.
And the part "we claim to have the right to chance it at any given time with no reaseon" is uber bullshit. This basically means, that they can update their EULA, but you still have to agree to the revised version.
I am very disappointed of CCP and a lot of people in the community, since most of you do not understand that the very serious critizism that was made in this thread was treated in a very naive and ignorant way, both by players and Sreegs.
The issue, what I think most think is, that "we" are angry, because you will ban "us" for using a mechanic which made it super easy for us to aquire rather large amounts (not really....). The other issue, what I think many of you have in mind, is that if this gets discussed more openly many people will abuse this to adjust bots to stand under the radar.
I am sorry to address you as being wrong, because this isn't the point why people step up. Many might not be eloquent and just made nuts posts, but the very problem is that by doing such things CCP creates a feeling of insecurity for the player.
The same thing was caused by SOPA, PIPA and what ever the plain intention was not to abuse these treaties or new laws, but they were phrased in very indefinite ways which could have made abuse very easy.
The funny thing is, and this was mentioned before "poor design attracts poor use", is very true. No one can pretend to design a system perfectly, but this isn't about a simple flaw in design or very small code segment being abused. This is a major game mechanic being in the game for a long time.
The only reason why you get back up by many players is, because they are jealous of other people making money. A lot of people won't even notice or know how manipulations affect the market, they are just furious about this very nebulous "threat" those very LITTLE GROUP of players seem to oppose to them. |
dexington
122
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Posted - 2012.08.10 12:19:00 -
[400] - Quote
Zapson wrote:And the part "we claim to have the right to chance it at any given time with no reaseon" is uber bullshit. This basically means, that they can update their EULA, but you still have to agree to the revised version.
No, you would need to agree to the new version, or stop playing. You are not being forced to agree to the new version. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
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Zapson
The Companionship Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
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Posted - 2012.08.10 12:28:00 -
[401] - Quote
dexington wrote:Zapson wrote:And the part "we claim to have the right to chance it at any given time with no reaseon" is uber bullshit. This basically means, that they can update their EULA, but you still have to agree to the revised version. No, you would need to agree to the new version, or stop playing. You are not being forced to agree to the new version.
That's what I said, they can update it, but in order to continue you have to agree in order to continue playing. |
Misty Mountains
Mysterious Island
0
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Posted - 2012.08.10 12:32:00 -
[402] - Quote
Vrykolakasis wrote:I really love Screegs' hostile tone in the vast majority of his replies in this topic.
Never mind; I don't. I love hostility inside the game. To be aggressively hostile, condescending, and unprofessional to your customers in real life (or, well, a forum; still real interaction) is not an admirable character trait.
yes, there are game issues in this thread. we all know this and have our opinions. But THIS ^, this is the core problem. |
dexington
122
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Posted - 2012.08.10 12:35:00 -
[403] - Quote
Zapson wrote:The issue, what I think most think is, that "we" are angry, because you will ban "us" for using a mechanic which made it super easy for us to aquire rather large amounts (not really....).
If you find a way to make 30B a months by being afk 24/7 and think everything is perfectly fine, and you could not possibly be breaking any rules, you are pretty ******* stupid... or more likely, you know you are exploiting a bug.
Zapson wrote:The other issue, what I think many of you have in mind, is that if this gets discussed more openly many people will abuse this to adjust bots to stand under the radar.
Everyone knows that CCP are looking a activity patterns, when detecting bots. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
Damion Rayne
Lorentz Technology Group
127
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Posted - 2012.08.10 12:41:00 -
[404] - Quote
So any word from our resident Team Security guy? Aka the overly hostile, ex-goon, who I have no confidence in what so ever? Aka Sreegs...in case you were wondering. All the backlash to this very very poorly handled situation and we've got nothing from anyone other than Sreegs, who has been just as hostile to us as we have been in response to how badly his team is handling this situation. Come on CCP, you are better than this...I know, because I've worked with you guys.. Teamwork.. Maturity.. Tactics.. www.tacticalgamer.com |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
79
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Posted - 2012.08.10 12:56:00 -
[405] - Quote
Bloody hell, i've never seen such a mass of self-pitying whingers. Whingers who it seems have no facility for rational thought either. You don't have to be a genius to know the difference between afk farming and afk hauling or missioning
Sreegs, you're a more patient man than I o7 "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1013
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 13:25:00 -
[406] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:So any word from our resident Team Security guy? All the backlash to this very very poorly handled situation and we've got nothing from anyone other than Sreegs, who has been just as hostile to us as we have been in response to how badly his team is handling this situation. Come on CCP, you are better than this...I know, because I've worked with you guys..
What is there to respond to?
You ninnies got all butthurt about CCP declaring something very specific as off-limits and saying they're going to fix it.
People made slippery slope analogies, read things wrong, or just plain didn't read, and then started posting.
I give credit to CCP Sreegs for bothering to try and answer all you trolls over and over.
tl;dr: CCP makes the rules - its their game. Rules change. Play by them or go find another game.
Here's your sign... |
OutCast EG
Very Industrial Corp. Legion of xXDEATHXx
8
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Posted - 2012.08.10 13:31:00 -
[407] - Quote
I have no idea what this "afk running" thing is about" but again, i see that what's right and what's wrong in player's actions is decided on single person's (Sreegs') judgment and good will. Which looks ********. Give players at least some concrete framework on what they can and cannot do, what's considered bad, what can get you punished, so we're all on the same grounds. I thought this was obvious and logical.
Also, on the second thought, you might want to check your wording, so you don't sound like a pompous douche. No offence, just tired of Sreegs' ever-patronizing tone towards his company's clients. |
Thiama Pacht-Feng
scrutarius Industrie
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 13:38:00 -
[408] - Quote
Hi So your Updat is indeed awesome, but I think it's not fair that her Trimxere (player name) use the boot found guilty even though this is the case. Pettie to be the Eula Quoted ^ ^ although he has not offered or made GÇïGÇïgeminer marco use so as I said great game but if you people for 14 days beginning no reason to block this is a very nice regressive |
Zapson
The Companionship Test Alliance Please Ignore
13
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Posted - 2012.08.10 13:53:00 -
[409] - Quote
dexington wrote:Zapson wrote:The issue, what I think most think is, that "we" are angry, because you will ban "us" for using a mechanic which made it super easy for us to aquire rather large amounts (not really....). If you find a way to make 30B a months by being afk 24/7 and think everything is perfectly fine, and you could not possibly be breaking any rules, you are pretty ******* stupid... or more likely, you know you are exploiting a bug. Zapson wrote:The other issue, what I think many of you have in mind, is that if this gets discussed more openly many people will abuse this to adjust bots to stand under the radar. Everyone knows that CCP are looking a activity patterns, when detecting bots.
Give me actual numbers, or Sreegs should give out ACTUAL numbers how much they really made. I know a lot of persons which make insane amounts of money and manipulate the market. I do not think I broke any rules, because I never did "AFK COSMOS"-whatever. I am just an observer trying to be objective.
And they did not break any clear rules, just because some meta-philosophical interpretation of the EULA or Sreegs says that this is not okey, it did not actually break any rule. Don't get me wrong. I do not like to see people making money out of nowhere, but they did it on a legitimate basis. Please tell me you wouldn't did the same thing if you spotted something similiar. You probably wouldn't have done it 24h but you would have used it for a good amount of time, which is basically "abusing" the same mechanism. If doing something 24hours is abuse, doing it 8hours is abuse too. Beating your wife gets not any near more legal if you only did it once a week rather than each day.
The very problem is that CCP Sreegs always comes out and says PLAYERS ABUSED IT, WE WILL PUNISH THIS BEHAVIOUR. I said it last time, when the Factional Warfrare thing was around.
Please CCP watch your words, people on the internet are sensitive and you should learn to address things in a much nicer way. "There is problem with COSMOS which opened the possibility to made more money than we intended, we will fix(!) this issue" and not "investigate it and ban all people".
We have much bigger problems than some few high sec carbears getting a bit too much money. This is only another addition to the list of problems that the system might be broken, yet unfixed. And I doubt they will do more about this, rather than simply striking through with bans instead of adjusting the algorithm or altering the gameplay of COSMOS.
http://memegenerator.net/instance/24746559 |
Danny theDog
Phoenix Consortium Industries Black Core Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.08.10 13:56:00 -
[410] - Quote
I agree with Dregol but i would like to just state the fact that CCP sreegs concentrating on those players making ISK afk and not actually playing the game wether it be right or wrong i dont care but allowing cloaky campers to stay cloaked 23/7 is ok? you let ppl cloaky camp a system that stops players actually playing the game like how YOU want US to play the game, and more to the point to the habitants of nullsec systems that players spend hours on gaining /fighting for sov over.
Theres a strategical advantage and more to the fact trolololol advanatge to cloaky campers but still if ther gonna doit atleast make them have to sit at thtere pc's to stay cloaked and stop camping a system 23/7
looking at it as a business you are stopping ppl from playing the game half arsed and yet allowing players stopping lots of other players from actually actively playing the game. <-doesn't make sense
(excuse the spelling im on drugs so it makes it ok...i think)
TROLL SHIELD ACTIVATE!! |
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daddi0
Brooklyn Tax Dodgers
20
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Posted - 2012.08.10 14:01:00 -
[411] - Quote
Rayford Carpathia wrote:Suqq, quit insulting people and name calling just because we don't agree with you. You see only what you want to see. You read only what you want to read. Post with your main or just go away. You've already rendered your arguments invalid by your contradictions and insults.
What he said. In some 20+ posts, Suqq, you haven't said anything directly related to the issue at hand, simply flamed other people's comments. Regardless of our opinions, some of us are trying to have a serious discussion about the direction of the game, so eIther get out from behind your 4 month old alt and act responsibly, or quit being a newbie troll and shut-up. To correct your misinformed carping, the Code of Conduct describes how you should BEHAVE, not how you can play, and there is nothing in either it or the EULA that describes or defines BOT-LIKE behavior. That is strictly an artifact of forum discussions like this one.
Contrary to many of the CCP positive/Player negative comments, Much of this discussion is not about whether this behavior is right or wrong, but how CCP is going about it, and what the ramifications of their actions are. AFK is an important fact of life in the game. Hardly anyone, even stupid listless ones, ever do absolutely nothing. Unless you're insanely paranoid or a complete couch potato, very few players sit around and watch while they do 22 jumps through hisec space. I certainly don't. I don't watch my laundry spin, or my chicken roast; I GO DO SOMETHING ELSE. If someone chooses to farm a complex manually because they can do it while at work, or some other reason, the question remains HOW CAN YOU TELL if they are AFK ot not?
The without an answer to this question this kind of decision is indeed a slipperly slope, as this behavoir is very similar to others in the game. The only distinction is some nebulous determination of how much/how fast that has yet to be revealed. |
Thiama Pacht-Feng
scrutarius Industrie
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 14:05:00 -
[412] - Quote
So what my colleague, he writes, after 14 days As always when he makes Pettie Minert or umlogt or just afk and I know him as the really;) |
dexington
124
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 14:06:00 -
[413] - Quote
Zapson wrote:Give me actual numbers, or Sreegs should give out ACTUAL numbers how much they really made.
Linkage
23 hours a day, 28 days a month is around 29B GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
Zapson
The Companionship Test Alliance Please Ignore
13
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Posted - 2012.08.10 14:09:00 -
[414] - Quote
dexington wrote:Zapson wrote:Give me actual numbers, or Sreegs should give out ACTUAL numbers how much they really made. Linkage23 hours a day, 28 days a month is around 29B
...."with a fleet".
The size is not very specific and you can do pretty much the same or more money with a "fleet" or miners in less time.
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dexington
124
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Posted - 2012.08.10 14:15:00 -
[415] - Quote
Zapson wrote:dexington wrote:Zapson wrote:Give me actual numbers, or Sreegs should give out ACTUAL numbers how much they really made. Linkage23 hours a day, 28 days a month is around 29B ...."with a fleet". The size is not very specific and you can do pretty much the same or more money with a "fleet" or miners in less time.
Not while being afk 23 hours a day. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
Zapson
The Companionship Test Alliance Please Ignore
13
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 14:17:00 -
[416] - Quote
dexington wrote:Zapson wrote:dexington wrote:Zapson wrote:Give me actual numbers, or Sreegs should give out ACTUAL numbers how much they really made. Linkage23 hours a day, 28 days a month is around 29B ...."with a fleet". The size is not very specific and you can do pretty much the same or more money with a "fleet" or miners in less time. Not while being afk 23 hours a day.
The funny thing is you don't have to be afk that long to make the same amount of money with a fleet of miners. Mining is semi-afk you come back every once and again. If you do the same with COSMOS afking you would say it's legit? |
GFL Kalor
Shadow Council
10
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Posted - 2012.08.10 14:17:00 -
[417] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:CARB0N FIBER wrote:How do you know I'm AFK?
Are you hacking my web cam?
Is there a time limit on how long I can play?
What is this time limit?
Will this time limit be like other rules, where we don't know what it is till we are banned?
Since playing 23 hours a day is now a bannable offense will we be getting a dicounted rate?
So we pay for 720 hours of game time, in which we can play 690 hours. So how many of the 690 hours of the 720 hours we pay for can we play without getting banned?
Another thing, ALT's. Obviously if you have multiple accounts logged in one is AFK. So should you banned if you have multiple accounts?
I know you saying something like I'm not AFK, I have a screen and keyboard for every account. How do we know that? This is a very old, old issue. I have proof of people getting banned and sent a GM message stating they did not detect any botting software but their "too regular and prolonged gameplay" flagged them as bots. This is why in the past I always asked CCP Sreegs for ways for players to defend and prove their innocence. This is why I created multiple in game tickets about the same matter and all of them got a "players cannot defend themselves, they will be banned with no ability of recourse" reply. Which in fact proves that this entire thing is being handled in an entirely incompetent manner. Let's just remember, big brother Sreegs is watching us and if we play for more than a few hours straight and we're not actively pushing buttons, it's best to just log off. Oh and that will eventually go to hauling, mining, salvaging, PI, day-trading, and mission running.
I wonder if this means my "Off Grid Booster" is a bot? Are you going to ban them as well???? |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
633
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 14:19:00 -
[418] - Quote
This is now a thread dedicated to fielding ideas on how to nerf afk cloaking, as it is a serious problem in null sec and it needs to be addressed. |
Brokers Clone
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 14:29:00 -
[419] - Quote
THIS looks like what Skreggs was talking about.
Gotta hand it to him, He really attempted to cloud the issue....MMMyeah
OK, I see this as going a weeee bit too far. And I see CCP deciding to nip it off however, I still say:
1. Tell the CSM you are gonna make a change to player capabilities Re:COSMOS 2. Fix it 3. No banning needed. Just a footnote, buried in a patch log
(But of course, CCP Skreggs would not get a chance to... ummm... Shine)
(Of course, you have to admit, he WAS pretty cool about replying to all of our Kvetching) |
dexington
124
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Posted - 2012.08.10 14:33:00 -
[420] - Quote
Zapson wrote:The funny thing is you don't have to be afk that long the make the same amount of money with a fleet of miners. Mining is semi-afk you come back every once and again. If you do the same with COSMOS afking you would say it's legit?
You just don't get it, they did not discover a new profession. Someone found a way to afk grind isk, and decided to exploited the best he could, when what he should have done was inform ccp of the problem. I really don't care if people cheat and exploit, i can do **** all about it. It is just ******** to try and make CCP the bad guys for enforcing a rule everyone knows exist, exploit a bug and you risk perma ban. And it was pretty obvious this was not working as intended, why else would it be the only place in the game it was possible.
If you can't see what effect it would have on the economy of eve if everyone did this, then you clearly do not understand eve. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
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