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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
2036
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:08:00 -
[181] - Quote
Octoven wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Octoven wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
And how many times have you been banned for this?
Obviously he hasnt been banned any since this new policy hasnt been implemented before today so why should he be banned? Yes, I see it the same way. I mean your account can sit there for 24 hours ratting belts and do nothing else. Just tank up and set the drones out on aggressive. Now your making bounty you can go out and have a dinner and a movie, do some shopping. I mean your making money on a mechanic that is never designed for passive income, should this be a bannable offense as well? Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch. Well you cant very well say that I mean you cant place a monetary value on AFKing. Especially after you blatantly stated, "The activity itself falls within the same philosophical context we place botting within. I get it you don't like it. You can't change that however. With botting we concern ourselves with more than the technical limitations but rather what types of behavior and automation we find unacceptable." Essentially the ideology of AFKing is to generate profit. Granted its small amounts; however, it still falls under the same philosophical idea. The moment you blurred the lines between botting and AFK actions is the moment that idea became more prevalent to apply to all forms of AFK income.
Nothing has changed about our philosophy as regards what we are or aren't looking for behavior-wise. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Naomi Shana
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:14:00 -
[182] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch.
So the concern really isn't that people are using the tools given to them by the game design to make isk, it's that they're making a lot of isk doing it.
You just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper. I highly suggest back off your position and fix the problem in the game mechanics instead of making threats about banning non-botters and scaring the crap out of everyone.
Every single person who has ever walked away from their computer while running the game, for any length of time or reason, read your news article and said, "What?!"
And then they come here and read that CCP would rather make non-specific threats and varied explanations (is the issue afk isk or lots of afk isk?) as to why this is being done instead of simply fixing the problem where it started: in the code.
Less Godzilla, more diplomacy.
Let me help:
"Hit there, this is CCP. We're turning off a few high-sec missions while we adjust the code, sorry for the inconvenince."
And if you can't simply turn them off while fixing them, then let the problem continue until you do fix it. You caused the problem, it's not causing any huge issues, what's the big deal if some afk'ers make a few more iskies until you can roll out the fix? It's certainly 100x better than the customer relations problem you're causing by going this route. |
Octoven
Four Pillar Production Dragehund
9
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:14:00 -
[183] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Nothing has changed about our philosophy as regards what we are or aren't looking for behavior-wise.
The philosophy hasn't changed, only the areas by which that philosophy governs has been changed. Botting and Exploiting are zero tolerance actions, as such by including one form of AFK income generation you have to include it all. Failure to do this results in questioning what types of botting are acceptable. CCP has banned botting and by doing so banned all forms of botting, thus if you banned AFKing for huge profits you have to do it all the way round.
Right now your cutting off the arm to save the patient but you arent stopping the bleeding. |
Evanga
Trust Doesn't Rust Against ALL Authorities
21
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:17:00 -
[184] - Quote
yes, stop afk cloaking! |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
994
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:18:00 -
[185] - Quote
Naomi Shana wrote:
Every single person who has ever walked away from their computer while running the game, for any length of time or reason, read your news article and said, "What?!"
Not so!
I go afk quite a lot - and I read the announcement and thought, "This should be good - there are lots of people who can't read beyond a 4th grade level and will make wild assumptions about this one."
*popcorn*
Here's your sign... |
SmashTech
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
75
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:21:00 -
[186] - Quote
So instead of fixing the problem, which is infinitely spawning rats in highsec complexes, you wrote an algorithm to ban people who take advantage (in the same way that OTEC takes advantage, for example) of your lousy game design for their own profit.
This is such a great way to fix the problem.
Instead of fixing the complexes, you have now opened the door to any kind AFK moneymaking being labeled illegal and AFK profits being wrong (after you redesigned mining ships to function much better AFK).
Your brilliance shines like the light of a thousand suns. |
ps3ud0nym
O C C U P Y Tribal Band
94
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:22:00 -
[187] - Quote
This is a fantastic change! The big question though, is this going to be applied fairly? If you are going to hit AFK complex runners, then you most certainly should be hitting AFK miners. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1263
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:24:00 -
[188] - Quote
Why was the first priority to ban the player instead of fixing the game? My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Suqq Madiq
Amarr Empire
292
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:24:00 -
[189] - Quote
ps3ud0nym wrote:This is a fantastic change! The big question though, is this going to be applied fairly? If you are going to hit AFK complex runners, then you most certainly should be hitting AFK miners.
Are you unable to read? Or is it simply your comprehension that is stunted? This is about a very specific form of AFK Plexing that in no way has anything to do with mining or any other activities or scenarios that your feeble mind can imagine. Enough with the strawmen, k? |
Hassel Leet
New Rules
0
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:25:00 -
[190] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Naomi Shana wrote:
Every single person who has ever walked away from their computer while running the game, for any length of time or reason, read your news article and said, "What?!"
Not so!
I go afk quite a lot - and I read the announcement and thought, "This should be good - there are lots of people who can't read beyond a 4th grade level and will make wild assumptions about this one."
*popcorn*
This ^ |
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
996
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:27:00 -
[191] - Quote
SmashTech wrote:So instead of fixing the problem, which is infinitely spawning rats in highsec complexes, you wrote an algorithm to ban people who take advantage (in the same way that OTEC takes advantage, for example) of your lousy game design for their own profit.
This is such a great way to fix the problem.
Instead of fixing the complexes, you have now opened the door to any kind AFK moneymaking being labeled illegal and AFK profits being wrong (after you redesigned mining ships to function much better AFK).
Your brilliance shines like the light of a thousand suns.
LOL
The algorithm already existed to catch botters.
It revealed these people too and banned them.
They complained that they weren't botting.
CCP thought, "Oh hey, this should probably be fixed and specifically outlawed too since its like botting without a bot. Let's warn people and erase the bad mark on their permanent record."
CCP puts steps in motion to fix problem, makes announcement that this is now a Bad ThingGäó
Insert eleventy-hundred forum idiots who can't read but are good at shiptoasting.
There, now everyone should be caught up with the tl;dr version of events. Here's your sign... |
Fatbear
Starwinders The Unwilling.
5
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:28:00 -
[192] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch.
This is a worrying post.
As stated by others, you've just placed a monetary value on the acceptable limit of AFK performance.
You've just quite directly said that 23/7 AFK drone farming is perfectly acceptable in one form (belt ratting) because the income is low, but bannable in another form (these funky COSMOS things) because the income is high.
I really don't mean to sound as if I'm jumping on the "flame a dev" wagon here, but I'd rather be clear on details and you seem to clarify in one step then muddy the waters with another. |
A Research Alt
Perkone Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:30:00 -
[193] - Quote
Yeah now that I think about it CCP should ban everyone involved in moon mining, too, since they never do anything past the initial set up and the occasional run every few days to collect money.
BAN MOON MINERS, IT'S ONLY FAIR. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
343
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:32:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: It's not about botting. It just so happens that this is the discussion we're usually having when we're talking about this type of behavior.
:edit: In this case someone was making significant income running their PC 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The system designed to detect that did. Enter news item.
Of course this is about botting. It was detected by the "never a false positive" botting system, botting sanctions (presumably including the 'no character transfers' sanction) were applied, and the activity was described as being effectively the same as botting when - according to the rule players have for what botting is, "using a bot" - it isn't, all make this an issue where we're talking about botting. And we're talking about botting because Team Security is handling it instead of the GM team. And it's not that there was internal deliberation over who ought to handle this. The sequence of events was that Team Security had a false positive and flagged a NotBot as a bot. Botting sanctions were applied, and the player at issue petitioned to prove he was not a bot and did so successfully. In response, Team Security declared that it didn't matter he was a Notbot instead of a bot, and declared that the botting algorithms flagging him as a bot were not a false positive. That response wasn't from a GM. That was from a member of team security.
Only after outrage over this response, presumably, was this internal deliberative process invoked where Team Security had already taken over, to confirm what had already happened. That was a mistake. Team Security deals with botting issues, and we know this is a botting issue and not a standard "spirit of the EULA" issue because it's only botting issues that bypass the GMs.
You also, again, give us a really bad rule when you say you can't get a "tangible benefit" from afk activity: afk cloaking gives me an extremely tangible benefit. I deny my opponent income, give myself the chance for kills, get hilarious rage in local. Used en masse, I can shut down an enemy alliance's income stream (as in a post-tech environment ratting and renting fees are your income) allowing me and my friends to take over a region. In fact, this is commonly used for this exact purpose. None of these are raw isk, but it's still an extremely tangible benefit you can quantify relatively easily.
There's a reason the GM team deals with these rules: they're used to thinking them through and giving players good, clear, and fair rules that are intended to apply anywhere they would reasonably be thought to apply rather than simply one-off cases where the rule given doesn't apply anywhere else. |
Octoven
Four Pillar Production Dragehund
9
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:34:00 -
[195] - Quote
A Research Alt wrote:Yeah now that I think about it CCP should ban everyone involved in moon mining, too, since they never do anything past the initial set up and the occasional run every few days to collect money.
BAN MOON MINERS, IT'S ONLY FAIR.
This would certainly fall under the category of making tons of money in a 24 hour period now doesnt it? lol |
ps3ud0nym
O C C U P Y Tribal Band
96
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:36:00 -
[196] - Quote
Suqq Madiq wrote:ps3ud0nym wrote:This is a fantastic change! The big question though, is this going to be applied fairly? If you are going to hit AFK complex runners, then you most certainly should be hitting AFK miners. Are you unable to read? Or is it simply your comprehension that is stunted? This is about a very specific form of AFK Plexing that in no way has anything to do with mining or any other activities or scenarios that your feeble mind can imagine. Enough with the strawmen, k?
Apparently you didn't read the entire dev blog. I shall repost the parts that are relevant, but I doubt your ability to read words of more than a single syllable. You seem particularly stupid:
"While this activity does not necessitate the use of a 3rd party program in order to carry it out you ARE generating income in an automated fashion while sleeping which is not being present playing the game."
AFK mining is also "Generating an income in an automated fashion".
How exactly do you manage to live without a brain is a mystery for the ages. |
Gossamer DT
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
82
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:38:00 -
[197] - Quote
I too once had a sandbox, I keep changing it adding restriction that firmed up the sand like: Calcium, Aluminum, iron and water...
I no longer have a sandbox who is your main, and what does he do? |
Claire Voyant
135
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:38:00 -
[198] - Quote
So Sreegs has stated that there exists an automated system that bans players if they are AFK and making a lot of money. Should I be worried? |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
769
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:38:00 -
[199] - Quote
Octoven wrote:A Research Alt wrote:Yeah now that I think about it CCP should ban everyone involved in moon mining, too, since they never do anything past the initial set up and the occasional run every few days to collect money.
BAN MOON MINERS, IT'S ONLY FAIR. This would certainly fall under the category of making tons of money in a 24 hour period now doesnt it? lol
Agreed. Ban all moon mining.
Trillions made a week.
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Suqq Madiq
Amarr Empire
292
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:40:00 -
[200] - Quote
ps3ud0nym wrote:Suqq Madiq wrote:ps3ud0nym wrote:This is a fantastic change! The big question though, is this going to be applied fairly? If you are going to hit AFK complex runners, then you most certainly should be hitting AFK miners. Are you unable to read? Or is it simply your comprehension that is stunted? This is about a very specific form of AFK Plexing that in no way has anything to do with mining or any other activities or scenarios that your feeble mind can imagine. Enough with the strawmen, k? Apparently you didn't read the entire dev blog. I shall repost the parts that are relevant, but I doubt your ability to read words of more than a single syllable. You seem particularly stupid: "While this activity does not necessitate the use of a 3rd party program in order to carry it out you ARE generating income in an automated fashion while sleeping which is not being present playing the game."AFK mining is also "Generating an income in an automated fashion". How exactly do you manage to live without a brain is a mystery for the ages.
Look at you with all your wits about you. It's cute and mildly impressive. But it still doesn't discount the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Keep throwing out those strawmen though. You totally don't like a tool because of it. |
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Mike Head
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:40:00 -
[201] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:SmashTech wrote:So instead of fixing the problem, which is infinitely spawning rats in highsec complexes, you wrote an algorithm to ban people who take advantage (in the same way that OTEC takes advantage, for example) of your lousy game design for their own profit.
This is such a great way to fix the problem.
Instead of fixing the complexes, you have now opened the door to any kind AFK moneymaking being labeled illegal and AFK profits being wrong (after you redesigned mining ships to function much better AFK).
Your brilliance shines like the light of a thousand suns. LOL The algorithm already existed to catch botters. It revealed these people too and banned them. They complained that they weren't botting. CCP thought, "Oh hey, this should probably be fixed and specifically outlawed too since its like botting without a bot. Let's warn people and erase the bad mark on their permanent record." CCP puts steps in motion to fix problem, makes announcement that this is now a Bad ThingGäó Insert eleventy-hundred forum idiots who can't read but are good at shiptoasting. There, now everyone should be caught up with the tl;dr version of events.
Anyone who understands what's going on should continually quote this. Just quote this. Get the message out.
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
997
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:41:00 -
[202] - Quote
Claire Voyant wrote:So Sreegs has stated that there exists an automated system that bans players if they are AFK and making a lot of money. Should I be worried?
No.
Given your name, I should think you'd see it coming first. Here's your sign... |
Mr Forsaken
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:43:00 -
[203] - Quote
Suggested Solution:
Make it so drones/sentries/fighters/fighterbombers do not auto engage enemies.
Not that I would like that.. but whatever makes ccp happy and prevents afk carriers or whatever. |
SmashTech
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:43:00 -
[204] - Quote
Suqq Madiq wrote:Look at you with all your wits about you. It's cute and mildly impressive. But it still doesn't discount the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Keep throwing out those strawmen though. You totally don't like a tool because of it.
Why don't you Suqq Madiq |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
95
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:44:00 -
[205] - Quote
Naomi Shana wrote:Every single person who has ever walked away from their computer while running the game, for any length of time or reason, read your news article and said, "What?!"
Actually, I immediately knew what this was in reference to and thought "about f'ing time!" considering it has been a problem for years. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
770
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:48:00 -
[206] - Quote
CCP Sreegs, don't hate me for this.
What happens if I prove I was at the controls for 8 hours, away for 8 hours and back for 8 hours for the rest of the day?
Do the 8 hours I was AFK count as breaking the rules despite the other 8 Hours being actively available at the controls? Chatting, marketing, etc, etc?
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1266
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:53:00 -
[207] - Quote
This is a whole load of preventable drama
pointing the fingers at the players instead of the game My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet
594
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:54:00 -
[208] - Quote
The perfect opportunity to plug my stance on the matter.
http://soundcloud.com/xenuria/csm8-activity-vs-inactivity Xenuria CSM 8 |
Cifese
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:54:00 -
[209] - Quote
So this thread is pure gold. For those of you too busy to read it all, here's a tl:dr:
1. CCP has a system/algorithm that detects botting. 2. This system caught some folks who petitioned, saying they weren't botting. 3. CCP evaluated, said, "yep, you weren't botting, but what you were doing isn't allowed, so stop it" 4. They made that information public, so others wouldn't repeat the mistakes already flagged. 5. They have said they are going to "fix it" but there isn't a schedule, so it's an exploit.
and
6. Lots of people can't read, so they don't comprehend the news item and ragepost. 7. Others want to know the exact details of CCP's algorithm for botting detection so they can work around it (hmmm) 8. Forum Trolls do their job here as well.
That should about sum it up. |
cheese monkey
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.08.09 16:55:00 -
[210] - Quote
Naomi Shana wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch. So the concern really isn't that people are using the tools given to them by the game design to make isk, it's that they're making a lot of isk doing it. You just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper. I highly suggest back off your position and fix the problem in the game mechanics instead of making threats about banning non-botters and scaring the crap out of everyone. Every single person who has ever walked away from their computer while running the game, for any length of time or reason, read your news article and said, "What?!" And then they come here and read that CCP would rather make non-specific threats and varied explanations (is the issue afk isk or lots of afk isk?) as to why this is being done instead of simply fixing the problem where it started: in the code. Less Godzilla, more diplomacy. Let me help: "Hit there, this is CCP. We're turning off a few high-sec missions while we adjust the code, sorry for the inconvenince." And if you can't simply turn them off while fixing them, then let the problem continue until you do fix it. You caused the problem, it's not causing any huge issues, what's the big deal if some afk'ers make a few more iskies until you can roll out the fix? It's certainly 100x better than the customer relations problem you're causing by going this route.
THIS |
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