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KurnKuku
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Posted - 2010.11.27 21:48:00 -
[121]
Edited by: KurnKuku on 27/11/2010 21:56:49 Edited by: KurnKuku on 27/11/2010 21:52:46
Originally by: Alex Dua To whom it may concern: This is my opinion on the Learning Skill SP rebate, and urgent request to CCP to do a slight change in the rebate formulas that will kick in on Dec. 14th. First of all I agree that this should be done since learning skills are viewed, by some, as one of the major parts of the steep learning curve thrown at new players. However CCP needs to seriously reconsider the rebate amount. I believe that anyone that has put in time for the learning skills was thinking long term, in terms of years, payback. I believe that the base rebate should be a multiplier of the current points. Perhaps 1.2X currents SP? Assuming one has all LVL5 for learning, it actually takes longer to learn them in the old system then it would with the proposed fixed attributes. So assuming it takes 3 months to learn the skills using the old system, I guess it would take 2 months with the fixed attributes proposed. So we should receive the equivalent SP that we would receive for the 3 months of training time using the new system. I hope I am making this clear. I am not sure what the ôfairö multiplier amount should be, my guess is 1.2. On top of that we should receive a certain percentage bonus based on the total amount of current learning skill points. This is to offset the loss of the long term advantage over the people that would not or did not decide to train up the learning skills. So for example if someone had 1 million learning SP, they would get the 1.2 X 1mil + 1% of 1mil. So that would be 1,200,000+ 20,000 for a total rebate of 1,220,000 in refunded SP. If someone had 2 million that percentage should be 2%, and so on, up until 5mil and 5%. I would actually recommend having the percentage amounts higher, perhaps starting at 2% and jumping 2% for each 1mil. So at 5mil the percentage would be 10%. This whole idea behind the percentage bonus should be based on the fact that those that chose to learn these skills were doing so to have an advantage over those that didnÆt, on a ôlong termö basis. By leveling the attribute playing field that advantage disappears, and I feel isnÆt fair. The compensation percentage should perhaps be based on a 5 year outlook ? Perhaps 10? Ok, I am being lazy here and not making charts and doing the hard number crunching to justify myself. But I think I do have some logic in the above requests. Anyone else agree? Think I am an idiot? But whatever you think I would hope someone at CCP will see some of my logic here. Thanks.
I am not ****ing reading that until you put some page breaks in it.....sort it out.
You hit 'return' at some points in it...why not two returns?? Just to separate it out a bit. I got to line 5 then started salivating and nearly fell over.
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Gallians
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Posted - 2010.11.27 22:20:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Alex Dua To whom it may concern: This is my opinion on the Learning Skill SP rebate, and urgent request to CCP to do a slight change in the rebate formulas that will kick in on Dec. 14th. First of all I agree that this should be done since learning skills are viewed, by some, as one of the major parts of the steep learning curve thrown at new players. However CCP needs to seriously reconsider the rebate amount. I believe that anyone that has put in time for the learning skills was thinking long term, in terms of years, payback. I believe that the base rebate should be a multiplier of the current points. Perhaps 1.2X currents SP? Assuming one has all LVL5 for learning, it actually takes longer to learn them in the old system then it would with the proposed fixed attributes. So assuming it takes 3 months to learn the skills using the old system, I guess it would take 2 months with the fixed attributes proposed. So we should receive the equivalent SP that we would receive for the 3 months of training time using the new system. I hope I am making this clear. I am not sure what the ôfairö multiplier amount should be, my guess is 1.2. On top of that we should receive a certain percentage bonus based on the total amount of current learning skill points. This is to offset the loss of the long term advantage over the people that would not or did not decide to train up the learning skills. So for example if someone had 1 million learning SP, they would get the 1.2 X 1mil + 1% of 1mil. So that would be 1,200,000+ 20,000 for a total rebate of 1,220,000 in refunded SP. If someone had 2 million that percentage should be 2%, and so on, up until 5mil and 5%. I would actually recommend having the percentage amounts higher, perhaps starting at 2% and jumping 2% for each 1mil. So at 5mil the percentage would be 10%. This whole idea behind the percentage bonus should be based on the fact that those that chose to learn these skills were doing so to have an advantage over those that didnÆt, on a ôlong termö basis. By leveling the attribute playing field that advantage disappears, and I feel isnÆt fair. The compensation percentage should perhaps be based on a 5 year outlook ? Perhaps 10? Ok, I am being lazy here and not making charts and doing the hard number crunching to justify myself. But I think I do have some logic in the above requests. Anyone else agree? Think I am an idiot? But whatever you think I would hope someone at CCP will see some of my logic here. Thanks.
You should post your request in more threads! When you post the same barely legible wall of text in different threads and different forums, people are bound to read it.
It is very important, and time sensitive, so everyone should see your incredibly deep, and thought provoking piece.
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.11.27 22:29:00 -
[123]
To those who think the learning skills should stay,
Do you have any alts? How many?
Did you start any of them WITHOUT training all the learning skills right away? Did you just start playing cause well you can? I truly doubt it.
We pay lip service to the fact that you can start on day 1, yet none of you did with your alts.
Eve is growing, it needs to change to accommodate that change. The Learning skills did little more than to make characters feel like they really should for the sake of efficiency take time off learning to fly or shoot. The devs said in 2006 that they wanted to remove the learning skills and replace them with something better. In the spirit of CCP, it took a long time, but they have done it.
Don't be overly dramatic, this change is not WoWification, period. Please look up hyperbole.
Now if you want learning skills, why not head to features and discussions and suggest some that do NOT cause everyone to train them beyond other skills. They were effectively MORE important than other skills, as they were needed first. Remember the PLEX discussion? No more special items, well no more special skills.
Suggestion for new learning skill:
Multitasker: The pilot is adept at learning two things at once, the pilot trains 2 skills at once, although each at 50% of normal. Each additional level allots the pilot to shift by 10% e.g. 60/40, 70/30, 80/20, 90/10.
Now that's a learning skill.
Best Apollo =============================== || Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. || =============================== |
KurnKuku
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Posted - 2010.11.27 22:49:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel To those who think the learning skills should stay,
Do you have any alts? How many?
Did you start any of them WITHOUT training all the learning skills right away? Did you just start playing cause well you can? I truly doubt it.
We pay lip service to the fact that you can start on day 1, yet none of you did with your alts.
Eve is growing, it needs to change to accommodate that change. The Learning skills did little more than to make characters feel like they really should for the sake of efficiency take time off learning to fly or shoot. The devs said in 2006 that they wanted to remove the learning skills and replace them with something better. In the spirit of CCP, it took a long time, but they have done it.
Don't be overly dramatic, this change is not WoWification, period. Please look up hyperbole.
Now if you want learning skills, why not head to features and discussions and suggest some that do NOT cause everyone to train them beyond other skills. They were effectively MORE important than other skills, as they were needed first. Remember the PLEX discussion? No more special items, well no more special skills.
Suggestion for new learning skill:
Multitasker: The pilot is adept at learning two things at once, the pilot trains 2 skills at once, although each at 50% of normal. Each additional level allots the pilot to shift by 10% e.g. 60/40, 70/30, 80/20, 90/10.
Now that's a learning skill.
Best Apollo
In my head, you had a very strange voice!
But what you said in that voice was good :)
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Pyro Ninja
Gallente Loving Pirates Vera Cruz Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.27 23:38:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Klatho Cron
Gone are the times in which planning, organisation and dedication to a long term plan gave those an advantage over the lazy and impatient ones. Where sacrificing the moment would give you the laugh later on.
yes because there are no other skills that you can train to lvl 5 that take longer than 14 days that require patients.
Originally by: Klatho Cron
A guy who doesnt play eve knows **** about learnings. So its impossible that someone stays away from this game cause of that. Every new player who, after recognizing and understanding the learnings, quit the game because of that, wasnt worth it anyway. This is true and you all know it.
again you are right because no one in the help chanel or the corps that help new players out ever tell the noobs that they need to train there learning skills first so they can have a better eve experiance
Originally by: Klatho Cron
Shame on you ccp. That was one hell of a wrong descision. But im pretty sure YOU wont regret it.
no they won't and neither will you when they are able to do more to the game as they will be able to have more players which means more money for them to expand eve.
Overall the change is not going to change much as you get to keep the sp and put it someplace else, and yes you will still have your advantage over new players as you will still have more sp than them and have a better understanding of the game mechanics. This whole thing will die off about a week after the change just like every other emo rage change to the game has caused
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.11.27 23:49:00 -
[126]
Originally by: KurnKuku
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel To those who think the learning skills should stay,
Do you have any alts? How many?
Did you start any of them WITHOUT training all the learning skills right away? Did you just start playing cause well you can? I truly doubt it.
We pay lip service to the fact that you can start on day 1, yet none of you did with your alts.
Eve is growing, it needs to change to accommodate that change. The Learning skills did little more than to make characters feel like they really should for the sake of efficiency take time off learning to fly or shoot. The devs said in 2006 that they wanted to remove the learning skills and replace them with something better. In the spirit of CCP, it took a long time, but they have done it.
Don't be overly dramatic, this change is not WoWification, period. Please look up hyperbole.
Now if you want learning skills, why not head to features and discussions and suggest some that do NOT cause everyone to train them beyond other skills. They were effectively MORE important than other skills, as they were needed first. Remember the PLEX discussion? No more special items, well no more special skills.
Suggestion for new learning skill:
Multitasker: The pilot is adept at learning two things at once, the pilot trains 2 skills at once, although each at 50% of normal. Each additional level allots the pilot to shift by 10% e.g. 60/40, 70/30, 80/20, 90/10.
Now that's a learning skill.
Best Apollo
In my head, you had a very strange voice!
But what you said in that voice was good :)
Why thank you sir, I was in an odd mood, was it doctor demento? =============================== || Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. || =============================== |
ElJo123
Sons Of 0din Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2010.11.28 00:02:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Alex Dua Edited by: Alex Dua on 27/11/2010 23:58:45 Edited by: Alex Dua on 27/11/2010 23:54:49 To whom it may concern:
You can't read, you can't write, you can't do basic math. Anything else you want to share?
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jujumagumboo
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Posted - 2010.11.28 00:22:00 -
[128]
Originally by: IIIAsharakIII Edited by: IIIAsharakIII on 27/11/2010 19:24:23 Its funny that no one seems to see the value in learning skills, maybe that effect of eve has been lost to others. To me the learning skills give new players an opportunity to discover the game while they are still deciding which route they wish to take. Will they focus on industry and marketting, or military skills? Do they want to mine, or run missions? Eve is a sandbox, and it should be played that way. All of you are still thinking about the endgame, but you can't seem to get it through your heads that there's no SP cap (thats right, no level X). I remember someone justifying removal of learning skills because a CCP developer stated he had played counterstrike throughout his entire learning skill training time. He should have been fired. Also, if learning skills are such a "no choice" arguement, then why do we have Engineering and Electronics skills? Or Weapon Upgrades? Advanced Weapon Upgrades? These are also "no choice" skills, should you get them by default? NO. Lastly, counting up your learning points and your +5 implants, LOL, WOW PLAYER SPOTTED!
I imagine that when you post to the EVE Online forums that you are sitting at your kitchen table wearing a pair of stained sweatpants and an old AC/DC shirt from the 80s that's three sizes too small for you. You have an overturned bowl of cheerios at your feet and while you're furiously pounding away at the keyboard you are foaming at the mouth and making small grunting sounds.
Am I close?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2010.11.28 00:32:00 -
[129]
learning skills will only be a choice if it takes 5 months to train up to 5/4 WHENEVER YOU START TRAINING LEARNING SKILLS.
Right now it's get 5/4 in 5 months, or get them 6 weeks with the double training bonus.
That's not a choice.
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xxHELGAxx
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Posted - 2010.11.28 00:59:00 -
[130]
As a new player I am very thankful they are removing the skills. Learning to learn was stupid, I wanted to train cruiser skills but instead spent alot of time on learning skills to make everything else faster... which was apparently the best way to do things. Good riddance. And to you who complain they are gone... get a grip. you lose nothing with them being changed for base stats. i'll tell you who did lose out, me and my friend who spent the 20mil+ on the books (which is a huge investment as a noob) only to have the skills removed a few weeks later. I wish they would give newer players back the money they spent on the books, but you can't have your cake and eat it too, and everybody who put points into learning skills is getting some cake, so yay.
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
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Posted - 2010.11.28 02:16:00 -
[131]
There is no value in learning skills. CCP has always known this was a mistake, and is now able to remove it. There are plenty of legitimate things to be upset over without worrying over a positive change. ______________________________
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MichaelSean
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Posted - 2010.11.28 02:32:00 -
[132]
LOL
"Now I don't have to Google optimal learning training order!! They are dumbing down the game!!"
Come on.
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Mathhew Kane
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.11.28 02:38:00 -
[133]
I can't believe I found a whole thread devoted to *****ing about how awesome learning skills are because they keep the dumb people away.
Besides the fact that not a damn one of you can give anyone a damn good reason WHY we should keep a worthless bunch of skills on just so EVE can die a slow horrible death because most new players don't want to sit around training bull**** skills, let me ask you this.
Who else are most of you going to scam? The Vet eve player who's so damn paranoid he keeps a few extra rounds in reserve in case his fleet turns on him, or the noob wow player who wants to fly internet spaceships for a while?
-------------------------------------------------- Loyalty is simply slavery of ones own choosing. If ever you have the choice, Choose your master well."
My Step Father, Isikile Kane.
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Alex Dua
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Posted - 2010.11.28 03:29:00 -
[134]
My problem isn't with removing learning. I see the logic in doing so. Had a fair share of new players I tried to get to play Eve get turned off by learning. All I am after is more than a 1:1 payback for those that did invest into the learning skills.
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Izzy Lizzy
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.11.28 06:59:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Izzy Lizzy on 28/11/2010 07:00:04
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Suggestion for new learning skill:
Multitasker: The pilot is adept at learning two things at once, the pilot trains 2 skills at once, although each at 50% of normal. Each additional level allots the pilot to shift by 10% e.g. 60/40, 70/30, 80/20, 90/10.
Now that's a learning skill.
Best Apollo
lol, that's not a learning skill!! That's idiocy. Training two skillz, although each at 50% of normal, will still only give you both skillz in exactly the same time as if you had trained them separately. Same for 60/40, 70/30 etc. So what's the point in training two skillz at once? Good job at coming up with an idea for the most useless skill while fooling people into actually thinking it does something beneficial. A better description would read:
Multitasker: Hey, train two skills at once! It won't be any faster than if you had trained them separately, but at least you'll have something to tell your friends!
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Rusty Waynne
Caldari Waynne Industries
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:09:00 -
[136]
/not signed
Learning skills will not be missed.
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:17:00 -
[137]
I suspect the people who want learning skills to stay are more afraid of the unknown than have concern for what is good for the game or what is good for them. Learning skills will indeed not be missed.
Originally by: Samuel Langhorne Clemens I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
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F0rum Tr0ll
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:32:00 -
[138]
I'm all in favor of learning skill removal. I feel it will help bring in new blood, not as targets but as corp mates I can enjoy this game with. New people, new opportunities/experiences.
I don't feel as though Eve is here to entertain me, rather its a vehicle I can use to entertain myself. The real fun in Eve is the human interaction, Eve merely enables that.
All my characters are well past the learning stage and I support this change.
----------------------------------- They see me trollin... |
Septimus Jr
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:48:00 -
[139]
Well my short opinion would be: I don't mind. New players will get a boost, will require less time to be hooked by EVE...
More newbies = more money for CCP. More money for CCP = CCP happy (maybe more devs hired?) More devs? Great, new things quicker = players happy. More players = active market = better price competition = lower prices = players happy. More players = more things to shoot at? again players happy.
So in every single corner of this update I see only good things. EVE is good, we know it, so why not do things to expand the community?
The only threat here is LAG. More players = more delay. So resume, keep playing as you did before, have fun and it's lag you should be worried about, not the learning skills...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56nNT371LNw
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Cryocasm
Task Force A.S.T.E.R.O.I.D
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Posted - 2010.11.28 07:51:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Septimus Jr Well my short opinion would be: I don't mind. New players will get a boost, will require less time to be hooked by EVE...
More newbies = more money for CCP. More money for CCP = CCP happy (maybe more devs hired?) More devs? Great, new things quicker = players happy. More players = active market = better price competition = lower prices = players happy. More players = more things to shoot at? again players happy.
So in every single corner of this update I see only good things. EVE is good, we know it, so why not do things to expand the community?
The only threat here is LAG. More players = more delay. So resume, keep playing as you did before, have fun and it's lag you should be worried about, not the learning skills...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56nNT371LNw
You have given birth again to "Orca-Ganking" through this increase of players. Welcome to the jungle
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Drakarin
Gallente Absentia Libertas Solus
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Posted - 2010.11.28 08:33:00 -
[141]
Learning skills boil down to, being bored in the now for a couple weeks to save being a bit less bored later on, or not being so bored now but having to wait longer in the future to not be bored at all.
Might be choice, but both options are not fun in a video game.
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Jojo Jackson
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Posted - 2010.11.28 10:07:00 -
[142]
The need of learning-skills was allways pritty stupid.
You tryed to bring a friend to EvE and then you had to tell him: "but you need to do nothing for 2 weeks except learning skills to not lose time later".
The friends allways asked: "and what I am suposed to do in this 2 weeks without skills to fly/mine/produce then? And why should I waste my trail-time for learnings? Why can't I just download and PLAY?" Even if you offered them to make a trail, do the learnings for them and give them this "learned" acc then they still said: "no thx, now I have to pay for something I don't know."
It's good that they will be gone soon :) Now I can tell my friends: "download, train frig/weapons/etc and have fun PALYING while you do so".
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.28 10:14:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Bart Starr
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Support free choice and save our learning skills!!!! Why are we dumbing down the game even further for whiners. You have the choice of investing time in them early and reap long term benefits - or you choose to start learning something else and have more abilities up front, and fade in the stretch.
We have a new choice: where to invest our free SP into? Will it be a long term goal like charisma based leadership skills to enable us to fly Command ships or mind-linked Orcas faster or will be just boost our current skillplan? Or will we train that one long tedious skill that we've been avoiding for a while?
Choices, choices .... the removal of learning skills only added choice!!
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.11.28 10:31:00 -
[144]
Removing Learning skills is one of the worst development decisions in a long time. The CSMs who supported this have guaranteed they will get no votes from me ever.
Damn shame.
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Septimus Jr
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Posted - 2010.11.28 11:12:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Removing Learning skills is one of the worst development decisions in a long time. The CSMs who supported this have guaranteed they will get no votes from me ever.
Damn shame.
Yeah, sorry to tell but that's a five years old kid statement. Arguments or no balls.
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fr0gout
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Posted - 2010.11.28 11:15:00 -
[146]
Support the free choice of not having to train super capitals to actually be able to play this game (they are the only ship class, along with titans which are immune to overpowered ECM bull****). DELETE ECM FROM THE GAME CCP.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2010.11.28 11:46:00 -
[147]
Originally by: fr0gout Support the free choice of not having to train super capitals to actually be able to play this game (they are the only ship class, along with titans which are immune to overpowered ECM bull****). DELETE ECM FROM THE GAME CCP.
actully if they put in subsystem targeting, and made small ships the counter to super cap, that would be BADASS.
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fr0gout
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Posted - 2010.11.28 11:47:00 -
[148]
what would be even more badass is removing ECM from the game
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2010.11.28 11:56:00 -
[149]
Originally by: fr0gout what would be even more badass is removing ECM from the game
lol
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.28 12:14:00 -
[150]
Originally by: fr0gout what would be even more badass is removing ECM from the game
oh my, you seem to be quite bent on removing ECM from the game.
did a falcon and some sort of other lesser ship killed your multi-billion npc'ing ship, or perhaps, your 20-man ECM/ECCM-lacking gang was killed by a 10man gang with ECM support? ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
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