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Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:01:00 -
[1]
..was made in the german EO forum. After about 200 people made their descision it was 70.2% of people who were below 4mio. sp in learnings. 11.92% had all V. But im generous and count them in on the "good" side even though all V in learnings is stupid too.
That means that at least 70.2% of all people did it wrong. Now ccp denies me my advantage over those lazy impatient guys.
Now wheres youre argument that learnings were meaningless cause "everybody did them cause they had to do so" now ? The vast majority did it wrong. Best argument to get them back and change nothing.
inb4: Germans are dum****s anyway. Dont overestimate those numbers.. Yeah, plz say that, you cant make it more easy for me..
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:03:00 -
[2]
You realize 4/4 in learning is barely over 1 million SP, right?
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:04:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Halcyon Ingenium on 26/11/2010 10:04:40
Originally by: Klatho Cron ..was made in the german EO forum. After about 200 people made their descision it was 70.2% of people who were below 4mio. sp in learnings. 11.92% had all V. But im generous and count them in on the "good" side even though all V in learnings is stupid too.
That means that at least 70.2% of all people did it wrong. Now ccp denies me my advantage over those lazy impatient guys.
Now wheres youre argument that learnings were meaningless cause "everybody did them cause they had to do so" now ? The vast majority did it wrong. Best argument to get them back and change nothing.
inb4: Germans are dum****s anyway. Dont overestimate those numbers.. Yeah, plz say that, you cant make it more easy for me..
Insufficient sample, arguing the entire playerbase is represented by the german speaking playerbase is shoddy reasoning at best.
Originally by: Black Dranzer You realize 4/4 in learning is barely over 1 million SP, right?
And this... Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Sic et non. |
Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:06:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Klatho Cron on 26/11/2010 10:06:52 4/4 is wrong. You didnt do it rite man..With 4/4 youre on the losing track man.. Everything beside presence IV rest V is fail.
And, its the best sample we can get right now. So dont make it that easy for yourself.
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Rian O'Shea
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:08:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium Insufficient sample, arguing the entire playerbase is represented by the german speaking playerbase is shoddy reasoning at best.
I'm amazed at your stupidity regarding polls and sample sizes. The German EO forum has a lot of active members and can be used just fine for this.
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Muul Udonii
Minmatar THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:09:00 -
[6]
You had your advantage. Your skill points all accumulated faster during the previous x years.
You have another advantage; you now have more skillpoints to distribute between other skills.
Now it doesn't matter whether you were lazy or not; but it doesn't make the 'best' way to train skills also the most boring for new pilots; thus putting them off playing.
The universe doesn't actually revolve around you, as shocking as that might be for you to understand.
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:10:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 26/11/2010 10:12:50 Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 26/11/2010 10:11:25
Originally by: Klatho Cron ..was made in the german EO forum. After about 200 people made their descision it was 70.2% of people who were below 4mio. sp in learnings. 11.92% had all V. But im generous and count them in on the "good" side even though all V in learnings is stupid too.
That means that at least 70.2% of all people did it wrong. Now ccp denies me my advantage over those lazy impatient guys.
Now wheres youre argument that learnings were meaningless cause "everybody did them cause they had to do so" now ? The vast majority did it wrong. Best argument to get them back and change nothing.
Charisma 5/5 is senseless idiocy, people who have that either have trained everything they wanted, aren't good at math or are social/PI/leadership/trade fanatics or are preparing for a future where more cha skills might be introduced.
If you're not planning to play EVE longer than 2-3 years 5/5 is also senseless.
If you're a 100% industrial you don't need 5/5/ perception and willpower.
So what does the poll tell us? Not much ... and your conclusions are seriously flawed!
Also: this.
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Klatho Cron Edited by: Klatho Cron on 26/11/2010 10:06:52 4/4 is wrong. You didnt do it rite man..With 4/4 youre on the losing track man.. Everything beside presence IV rest V is fail.
And, its the best sample we can get right now. So dont make it that easy for yourself.
No, dude, the sample was botchy.
4/4 is ~1.5m SP 5/4 is ~2.2m SP
In fact, in order to have more than 4m SP in learning, you have to have all Tier1s at 5 and 3 Tier2s at 5.
Every single one of those guys who DIDN'T have more than 4 million SP could have had 5/4.
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Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Black Dranzer
No, dude, the sample was botchy.
4/4 is ~1.5m SP 5/4 is ~2.2m SP
In fact, in order to have more than 4m SP in learning, you have to have all Tier1s at 5 and 3 Tier2s at 5.
Every single one of those guys who DIDN'T have more than 4 million SP could have had 5/4.
What is SO ****ING hard to understand at: presence IV rest V ??? Thats about 4.8mio. sp. And this is it. This is(was) the way to go for everyone. Perhaps presence V too if you would be an exceptional leader/trader..
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rian O'Shea
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium Insufficient sample, arguing the entire playerbase is represented by the german speaking playerbase is shoddy reasoning at best.
I'm amazed at your stupidity regarding polls and sample sizes. The German EO forum has a lot of active members and can be used just fine for this.
My bad, I didn't realize "a lot" was such a specific number. Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Sic et non. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Klatho Cron What is SO ****ING hard to understand at: presence IV rest V ??? Thats about 4.8mio. sp. And this is it. This is(was) the way to go for everyone. Perhaps presence V too if you would be an exceptional leader/trader..
Now, you do realise that what you're doing is providing the best reason ever why the learning skills had to go, right? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Muul Udonii
Minmatar THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Klatho Cron
What is SO ****ING hard to understand at: presence IV rest V ??? Thats about 4.8mio. sp. And this is it. This is(was) the way to go for everyone. Perhaps presence V too if you would be an exceptional leader/trader..
1. You just agreed with the person you are angry at. 2. If it is the way to go for everyone, then you had no advantage, we all just wasted the same amount of SP. Now we get it back. Be happy.
3. Actually, we all have an advantage over those who ragequit, as you now gewt to redistribute the points and they never will. Feel smug.
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Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Klatho Cron ..was made in the german EO forum. After about 200 people made their descision it was 70.2% of people who were below 4mio. sp in learnings. 11.92% had all V. But im generous and count them in on the "good" side even though all V in learnings is stupid too.
That means that at least 70.2% of all people did it wrong. Now ccp denies me my advantage over those lazy impatient guys.
Now wheres youre argument that learnings were meaningless cause "everybody did them cause they had to do so" now ? The vast majority did it wrong. Best argument to get them back and change nothing.
inb4: Germans are dum****s anyway. Dont overestimate those numbers.. Yeah, plz say that, you cant make it more easy for me..
What you need to realise here is that this change isn't about you. Or anyone else playing the game. It's about increasing CCP's retention rate (of trial accounts to subscribers). The fact that it removes a bull**** mechanic is just a bonus for us.
Enjoy the free SP for what it is: Something to help the medicine go down.
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Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:28:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Klatho Cron on 26/11/2010 10:31:42 Edited by: Klatho Cron on 26/11/2010 10:30:37 Edited by: Klatho Cron on 26/11/2010 10:30:05 WTF ? Tippia and Muul, i didnt agree with him. Hes like: Those people with 5/4 have only 2mio sp, but they are perfectly fine.
Im like: **** no. Theyre not. 5/4 is inadequate. presence IV rest V! You got it ? presence 4 rest 5. presence four rest five. presence should be level 4(IV, four). everything else should be 5(V, five). GOT IT ?? God damn..
edit: i swear to god, if i hear the phrase "free sp" once again i will puke on my monitor..inb4 free sp free sp free sp...***gots
edit2: @doctor: if the change isnt about me, the customer, its a bad change. Nothing to argue here.
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Klatho Cron Edited by: Klatho Cron on 26/11/2010 10:30:05 WTF ? Tippia and Muul, i didnt agree with him. Hes like: Those people with 5/4 have only 2mio sp, but they are perfectly fine.
Im like: **** no. Theyre not. 5/4 is inadequate. presence IV rest V! You got it ? presence 4 rest 5. presence four reset five. presence should be level 4(IV, four). everything else should be 5(V, five). GOT IT ?? God damn..
edit: i swear to god, if i hear the phrase "free sp" once again i will puke on my monitor..inb4 free sp free sp free sp...***gots
frespfreespfrespfreespfrespfreespfrespfreespfrespfreespfrespfreespfrespfreespfrespfreespfrespfreespfrespfreespfrespfreespfrespfreesp fuh-reee essss-peeeeeeeeeee! Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Sic et non. |
Lillith Starfire
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:32:00 -
[16]
In the Account Management section there is a button which allows you to cancel your account and free you from your rage. I suggest pressing it and living happily ever after.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:34:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Grimpak on 26/11/2010 10:34:46
Originally by: Klatho Cron Edited by: Klatho Cron on 26/11/2010 10:31:42 Edited by: Klatho Cron on 26/11/2010 10:30:37 Edited by: Klatho Cron on 26/11/2010 10:30:05 WTF ? Tippia and Muul, i didnt agree with him. Hes like: Those people with 5/4 have only 2mio sp, but they are perfectly fine.
Im like: **** no. Theyre not. 5/4 is inadequate. presence IV rest V! You got it ? presence 4 rest 5. presence four rest five. presence should be level 4(IV, four). everything else should be 5(V, five). GOT IT ?? God damn..
edit: i swear to god, if i hear the phrase "free sp" once again i will puke on my monitor..inb4 free sp free sp free sp...***gots
edit2: @doctor: if the change isnt about me, the customer, its a bad change. Nothing to argue here.
hai thar, nearly 7 year vet here. 5/4 + learning 5 is enough even for me, since the addition of a single point really didn't changed my skill planing by a large margin (in over 2000 days, I would gain some 7 days, lol).
it is also the most common learning skill setup in EVE btw, so your sampling is wrong.
so stfu. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Klatho Cron What is SO ****ING hard to understand at: presence IV rest V ??? Thats about 4.8mio. sp. And this is it. This is(was) the way to go for everyone. Perhaps presence V too if you would be an exceptional leader/trader..
Here's what it comes down to: You want to be rewarded because you endured your way through learning skills.
Your reward is that you've benefited more than anybody else who didn't max those learning skills. And now you get to put those points into stuff that's actually useful.
But the people of Eve should not be made to suffer because you lack the ability to comprehend the benefits of not ****ing new players in the ass.
The Caldari people respect the needs of many over the needs of a few.
But I suppose you Amarrian Zealots would never appreciate that. You built an entire empire off of the sweat and blood of others, after all.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:41:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Klatho Cron WTF ? Tippia and Muul, i didnt agree with him.
I never said you did. I said you're providing the foremost argument for why learning skills had to go: because not going for 5/5 is "doing it wrong" ù you're effectively saying that there was never any choice (or, rather, that you could choose to be right or be stupid, which is no choice at all). The only remotely sensible argument that has ever been put forth against this change (a change, I might add, that CCP have been wanting to do for years) is you could always choose not to train the skills if they bothered you. You are now claiming that making that choice was wrong. Thus you have dismantled the only reason for keeping the skills around.
Quote: i swear to god, if i hear the phrase "free sp" once again i will puke on my monitor..inb4 free sp free sp free sp...***gots
They are free SP. You get to keep the attributes, and then you get a bunch of SP on top of that.
Quote: if the change isnt about me, the customer, its a bad change
It is about the customer, but it's not about you. It's a good change because it improves the game for that customer. It also improves the game for you, whether you want to see it or not. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:43:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Klatho Cron on 26/11/2010 10:46:28
Originally by: Grimpak hai thar, nearly 7 year vet here. 5/4 + learning 5 is enough even for me, since the addition of a single point really didn't changed my skill planing by a large margin (in over 2000 days, I would gain some 7 days, lol).
it is also the most common learning skill setup in EVE btw, so your sampling is wrong.
so stfu.
So you would have more sp with 5/5 besides presence. Thank you for backing me up.
And, im not mad cause of me losing my advantage, but im mad cause in future there will be no descision to be made. Everyone just will do it the right way, without even having the possibility to do it worse, or better. Most peoples argument than was: Its not a descision. Everyone has to do it. This poll only shows that it was very well a descision, which most people did wrong. So it had its place well deserved.
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Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:46:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Klatho Cron WTF ? Tippia and Muul, i didnt agree with him.
I never said you did. I said you're providing the foremost argument for why learning skills had to go: because not going for 5/5 is "doing it wrong" ù you're effectively saying that there was never any choice (or, rather, that you could choose to be right or be stupid, which is no choice at all). The only remotely sensible argument that has ever been put forth against this change (a change, I might add, that CCP have been wanting to do for years) is you could always choose not to train the skills if they bothered you. You are now claiming that making that choice was wrong. Thus you have dismantled the only reason for keeping the skills around.
Quote: i swear to god, if i hear the phrase "free sp" once again i will puke on my monitor..inb4 free sp free sp free sp...***gots
They are free SP. You get to keep the attributes, and then you get a bunch of SP on top of that.
Quote: if the change isnt about me, the customer, its a bad change
It is about the customer, but it's not about you. It's a good change because it improves the game for that customer. It also improves the game for you, whether you want to see it or not.
Yeah, youre right, you never said that. Im sorry. But i dont siege my own argument because of what i said. Its the poll that clearly shows that it WAS a descision to be made which 70.2% failed at. At least.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:47:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Grimpak on 26/11/2010 10:53:01
Originally by: Klatho Cron
Originally by: Grimpak hai thar, nearly 7 year vet here. 5/4 + learning 5 is enough even for me, since the addition of a single point really didn't changed my skill planing by a large margin (in over 2000 days, I would gain some 7 days, lol).
it is also the most common learning skill setup in EVE btw, so your sampling is wrong.
so stfu.
So you would have more sp with 5/5 besides presence. Thank you for backing me up.
And, im not mad cause of me losing my advantage, but im mad cause in future there will be no descision to be made. Everyone just will do it the right way, without eve having the possibility to do it worse, or better. Most peoples argument than was: Its not a descision. Everyone has to do it. This poll only shows that it was very well a descision, which most people did wrong. So it had its place well deserved.
no, I simply don't care, because the training I poured into learning at the time simpy didn't return enough investment in SP. You do know that when I started, all you got as learning skills was only the basic ones, and by 2005 or so CCP released the adv. learning ones (that needed the basic ones at lvl5 btw).
at the time, I have been playing the game for already over 3 years, and the time investment I would spend on maxing out learning skills, excluding presence, meant that I would need pretty much another seven years to make them pay off.
then CCP introduced remaps in 2008(?) and I could finally turn my atrib points from mem heavy to perc and got a boost on training gunnery and spaceship command. by this time I also checked how much time I would gain from maxing out learning skills, and surprise-surprise, at the very least three years.
so no, maxed out never interested me in any way since it would simply take too much time to pay off. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Klatho Cron And, im not mad cause of me losing my advantage, but im mad cause in future there will be no descision to be made.
Learning skills were a decision, but they were never an interesting decision. They were never a question of intelligence, they were a question of endurance. The people who "won" learning skills weren't smart, they just had a higher pain tolerance.
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Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Klatho Cron And, im not mad cause of me losing my advantage, but im mad cause in future there will be no descision to be made.
Learning skills were a decision, but they were never an interesting decision. They were never a question of intelligence, they were a question of endurance. The people who "won" learning skills weren't smart, they just had a higher pain tolerance.
Shouldnt that be rewarded ?
And everyone who quitted eve because of learnings, wasnt worth this game anyway. You all know it.
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Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Grimpak no, I simply don't care. and now I get free atrib points.
Ok, got me. Cant beat that argument "I dont care". This is truly the holy grail of any discusion you just discovered. I lost. Hard.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 10:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Klatho Cron
Originally by: Grimpak no, I simply don't care. and now I get free atrib points.
Ok, got me. Cant beat that argument "I dont care". This is truly the holy grail of any discusion you just discovered. I lost. Hard.
I edited that reply, so I could explain myself better. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Klatho Cron Shouldnt that be rewarded ?
And everyone who quitted eve because of learnings, wasnt worth this game anyway. You all know it.
Now things get interesting. At this point, it stops being about facts and starts coming down to opinions.
Firstly.. Yes, you should probably be rewarded. And in a way, you were; You got to enjoy the benefits of learning skills for a long time. That accumulated experience isn't going to go away. Also, you now get more points to redistribute than I will. You must have about 5 times the SP to redistribute compared to me. I envy you! I wish I'd had that level of endurance. But I didn't.
But I disagree about those newbies who left "not being worth it".
There's a sort of elitism that Eve players have, and I don't think it's healthy. Those new players could be there, flying with you, flying against you. They're often good people, but they see the basic premise of "wait around for a month", and they go, hey, why the hell would I pay 15 bucks to do nothing on the offchance that I might enjoy myself more later? They're not wimpy, we're just masochists. We put up with more **** than any normal person would. We shouldn't have had to. But we did.
Now the next wave of players won't have to put up with that. And maybe more of them will stay. And maybe Eve will grow. They may have different play styles, different priorities, different desires; But they'll adapt. Before you know it, they'll be mining and running missions and pew pewing out in nullsec and you won't even be able to tell them apart from the old six year bastard in the falcon next to them.
Relax. The future of Eve doesn't look so bad.
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KurnKuku
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:11:00 -
[28]
Edited by: KurnKuku on 26/11/2010 11:14:45 I saw two schools of thought yesterday against learning skill removal, those who were just whinging because they had trained it, and therefore despite the fact they are not going to be affected, they still feel hard done by and would be happier if it remained in game, to burden other players, because it did them.
Well sod it, give them a medal if it shuts them the f up, like any sane person would give a damn......"Oooo look at my shiny medal, I am sooooo elite in eve, and therefore a better individual in real life".
The second group of players seemed genuinely concerned about dumbing down the game, and I think it is not unreasonable to be concerned if that was the case, but the the removal of learning skills does not suddenly make Eve a walk in the park, it is still a very intelligent and skillful game, just one following this change that will be more accessible by new players :)
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Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:30:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Klatho Cron And everyone who quitted eve because of learnings, wasnt worth this game anyway. You all know it.
It would be a brave CEO that gets up in front of the owners and says 'Our retention rate is so ****ty because we only take the most hardcore players."
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Klatho Cron
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:34:00 -
[30]
@Grimpack: Someone did the maths long ago. 3 years and advanced learnings V start to pay off.
@black: Yes it is personal opinion. But im right. And you know it too. EVE grows since ever, and no other MMO in this world has had a constant growth over such a long period of time. Well done i would say. Now we have to change something for the noobs ? I dont think so. We all were pretty happy with what we got. Why change it ? Why do we want more players, when the server cant even handle half of the actual population ? When 400 man fights in not reinforced system go well, we can talk about new players. So WE the players dont need new players. ccp doenst need new players. Everyones telling that ccp is a healthy company. They just want more. Nothing else.
@Kurn: Yes eve isnt a walk in a park all of a sudden. But its about tendencies. And its not the first descision ccp made that pointed in the very wrong direction.. In germany we have a saying: Better do something before the child fell into the well.
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