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Khan Dok
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Posted - 2010.11.29 18:33:00 -
[1]
I fly Caldari and Armarr ships on my main, and am happy with that. I have recently been fitting out a Phantasm for solo-ish pvp, and was giving alot of thought as to how it could stand up to a Vagabond. Since they are so abundant out here in the cold of 0.0.
Tracking disruption, an optimal out to the edge of a warp disruptor and so on. Quick U-turns and catching the Vaga with a Scram more or less.
Anyways, I take a look at the Vaga, and I see that its EM resist on shields are 75%!!! WTF was my reaction.
What the hell? Caldari who are shield tankers, can't make a shield with EM resists, and some rifraf scrapheap challenge wannabes out there puts together a shield that can?
Why has the Vaga this shield bonus, it makes no sense whatsoever.
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Hooligan Tool
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.29 18:41:00 -
[2]
All Minmatar T2 ships have the shield EM resist hole at least partially filled in. That's just the way it is. ----- Ambush. Hit and run. Gank before tank. Speed is life. |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.11.29 18:53:00 -
[3]
Minm had to build decent em res and they were getting smacked by amarr's lasers all day.
the caldari were against gallante so often that filling the em hole was redundent as they never faced it, it made more sense to block the gallantes main damage types.
Now how they both achived it is largly irrelivant, they both found a way to increase two resistances way beyond normal tollerences for the damage types they were facing. The fact that the minm are scrubbers and poor does not mean they are stupid.
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Khan Dok
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Posted - 2010.11.29 18:56:00 -
[4]
Partially... The ship has an EM resist of 75%, by far the strongest resist it has got. Now I know the developers have got nothing except a "But it was supposed to be an armortanked ship".
Still I hate how Eve is always driving down wedges of "bad game" into their game. Like; shields shall be EM weak, we give them 0% instead of giving them 25%.
These kinds of decisions are everywhere, a better game would have balanced things.
Perpetuum has just been launched, and being very well received I might add. I think that any game who walks into Eve's turf, can do abit of balancing upfront, and suddenly be miles ahead of Eve and all it's "good ideas"
Doing stuff and then leaving them halfbaked to follow other stuff and ideas, is what Eve has always done, it makes Eve vulnerable to any competition I think.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.11.29 18:58:00 -
[5]
T2 resists are RP rather than, you know, gameplay sense, although some of them are very useful. Take the Amarr - their t2 ships have insanely high explosive resistance. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Khan Dok
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Posted - 2010.11.29 19:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington T2 resists are RP rather than, you know, gameplay sense, although some of them are very useful. Take the Amarr - their t2 ships have insanely high explosive resistance.
I'm just getting tired of this way CCP always puts up "full stop" signs in a game, instead of adressing their players.
Caldari EM hole... Exploring with your high skills and then last room has a 180000 EM torp out of nowhere.
These things are everywhere, and it reaks of lazyness and easy way outs for the developers, nothing else.
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Altaica Amur
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.11.29 19:18:00 -
[7]
Yeah these are the racial t2 resists, every race has them and the assault ships of each race tend to be the most extreme examples of this.
Amarr: Exp/Kin resists
Minmatar: EM/Therm resists
Caldari: Therm/Kin resists
Gallente: Kin/Therm resists
Personally I think this is a bit messed up the way these are distributed as you'd ideally end up with 2 races that resist each damage type instead of the lean towards EM/therm we see. Perhaps giving caldari EM as a secondary resist instead of kin to account for chosen damage types from gallente drones and gallente a secondary resist of exp for chosen missile damage types would even things out a bit. Keep in mind that as secondary resists they'd be a fair bit less potent then the primary resists listed first above, certainly would help balance out the tank for t2 ships.
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Enduros
Desard's Nation Cha0s Theory
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Posted - 2010.11.29 20:07:00 -
[8]
Unfair that Amarr have all the armor holes plugged
Unfair that Calmari shoot kinetic missiles which is the biggest hole on minnie T2 shield tanks. - This one time, at gate camp, I shot a shuttle... |
Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2010.11.29 20:07:00 -
[9]
That actually is a splendid idea. ------------------------------------- I like to fly around and shoot stuff.
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Zeta Zhul
Caldari Preemptive Paranoia
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Posted - 2010.11.29 21:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Khan Dok Partially... The ship has an EM resist of 75%, by far the strongest resist it has got. Now I know the developers have got nothing except a "But it was supposed to be an armortanked ship".
Still I hate how Eve is always driving down wedges of "bad game" into their game. Like; shields shall be EM weak, we give them 0% instead of giving them 25%.
These kinds of decisions are everywhere, a better game would have balanced things.
Perpetuum has just been launched, and being very well received I might add. I think that any game who walks into Eve's turf, can do abit of balancing upfront, and suddenly be miles ahead of Eve and all it's "good ideas"
Doing stuff and then leaving them halfbaked to follow other stuff and ideas, is what Eve has always done, it makes Eve vulnerable to any competition I think.
Interesting concept. Might take a stab at that game since I'm definitely in mecha withdrawal.
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Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.11.29 21:44:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Khan Dok Anyways, I take a look at the Vaga, and I see that its EM resist on shields are 75%!!! WTF was my reaction.
What the hell? Caldari who are shield tankers, can't make a shield with EM resists, and some rifraf scrapheap challenge wannabes out there puts together a shield that can?
Why has the Vaga this shield bonus, it makes no sense whatsoever.
First, lolrp. All races get their T2 resist as their enemies preferred damage type. This benefits Minmatar and Amarr as they get "balanced" shield and armor resists respectively.
Second, I like it because it makes for very silly people who shoot lasers at my Sleipnir.
Third, if you're upset about shields, just wait until you check out Minmatar T2 armor.
[Loki, DD resist] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Core A-Type Armor EM Hardener Core A-Type Armor EM Hardener Damage Control II
[empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
[empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Loki Offensive - Hardpoint Efficiency Configuration Loki Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
A shade over three million EHP against pure EM. Basically, it can take a doomsday and still be alive.
LOL.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.11.29 22:01:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/11/2010 22:02:03
Originally by: Target Painter Third, if you're upset about shields, just wait until you check out Minmatar T2 armor.
Yeah, just wait until you see those lovely Kin/Thm resists on Minnie armor.
-Liang
Ed: BTW, I'm not offended by the Minnie EM resist. I'm not offended by the Gallente Kinetic resist either (lol wtf omg my drake does .0001 damage!). |
Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.11.30 01:15:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Yeah, just wait until you see those lovely Kin/Thm resists on Minnie armor.
Thermal is fine, kinetic is decent, explosive is the hole.
Quote: Ed: BTW, I'm not offended by the Minnie EM resist. I'm not offended by the Gallente Kinetic resist either (lol wtf omg my drake does .0001 damage!).
My remarks were addressed only at the OP. Everyone else "gets it."
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.11.30 01:20:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/11/2010 01:21:21
Originally by: Target Painter Thermal is fine, kinetic is decent, explosive is the hole.
I don't agree with that. Compared to other T2 ships (Amarr, for example), Minmatar has two big resist holes and one ****ing enormous resist hole. Either way, armor tanking a Minnie T2 ship is for very specific usage only. Amarr armor simply doesn't have a resist hole, and Gallente / Caldari have only one.
Quote: My remarks were addressed only at the OP. Everyone else "gets it."
So was mine. ;-)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2010.11.30 02:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Khan Dok "But it was supposed to be an armortanked ship".
It may be an armor-tanked ship, but it's from the race designed generally around active shield tanking, with the resists to match.
Amarr - buffer armor tank Gallente - active armor tank Caldari - buffer (/passive) shield tank Minmatar - active shield tank
The individual ships lend themselves more or less to those paradigms, but that's the overarching theme (i.e. what sets the racial resistance distributions). ---
If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous |
Spc One
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.30 10:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Khan Dok I fly Caldari and Armarr ships on my main, and am happy with that. I have recently been fitting out a Phantasm for solo-ish pvp, and was giving alot of thought as to how it could stand up to a Vagabond. Since they are so abundant out here in the cold of 0.0.
Tracking disruption, an optimal out to the edge of a warp disruptor and so on. Quick U-turns and catching the Vaga with a Scram more or less.
Anyways, I take a look at the Vaga, and I see that its EM resist on shields are 75%!!! WTF was my reaction. What the hell? Caldari who are shield tankers, can't make a shield with EM resists, and some rifraf scrapheap challenge wannabes out there puts together a shield that can?
Why has the Vaga this shield bonus, it makes no sense whatsoever.
Minmatar are anti-amarr, so expect anti amarr resistances to EM and THERMAL. Minmatar are also hard to track disrupt (again anti-amarr) because of the falloff you'll still hit the target.
Amarr on the other hand are anti-minmatar that's why they have high resistances to EXPLOSION and KINETIC.
____________________________________________________________________________ Angel 0/A |
Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.11.30 11:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I don't agree with that. Compared to other T2 ships (Amarr, for example), Minmatar has two big resist holes and one ****ing enormous resist hole.
Conceded "decent" is probably optimistic for kinetic. But thermal really is fine.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.11.30 12:10:00 -
[18]
I'm kind of impressed. People are now complaining about the racial resists on T2 ships?
I mean, now? like five years after they were first introduced and ever since then they didn't receive any sort of change or whatever?
people are, indeed, running out of things to complain.
what's next, mining lasers are lasers and they are supposed to do EM/therm damage aswel? ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.11.30 16:29:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/11/2010 16:30:57
Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: Liang Nuren I don't agree with that. Compared to other T2 ships (Amarr, for example), Minmatar has two big resist holes and one ****ing enormous resist hole.
Conceded "decent" is probably optimistic for kinetic. But thermal really is fine.
If Kinetic is merely decent, then Amarr T2 ships do not have any resist hole at all - considering their "hole" is still higher than Minnie T2's kinetic resist. I think the reason I'm complaining about Thermal is because its not that high, and its already a real ***** to get your resists high enough to matter on an armor tanked Minnie T2.
-Liang
Ed: Basically, with Gallente, plug explosive (or EM!). With Caldari, plug EM. With Amarr, plug Thermal. With Minmatar, plug Exp/Kin and hope for the best on Thermal -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.11.30 16:46:00 -
[20]
Not every aspect of each type of module or ship has to be the same for the game to be overall balanced.
Passive Shields are nice because although they raise your sig radius they do not slow you down or decrease your agility. Armor plates do both. So armor gets a little bit better resist. No big deal.
Shields also regenerate. But armor tankers can plug slaves in etc.... These differences exist yet there is a very good balance in the game. That is what makes eve interesting.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.11.30 16:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ed: Basically, with Gallente, plug explosive (or EM!). With Caldari, plug EM. With Amarr, plug Thermal. With Minmatar, plug Exp/Kin and hope for the best on Thermal
In truth many of the caldari ships normally used in pvp (well basically the drake, though it's not the only example) can basically forget plugging any specific resist hole due to the 5% resist per level bonus, which basically means that most of the times 2 invulns and buffer are better than any other combination of active hardeners and resist rigs + buffer.
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.30 21:19:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 30/11/2010 21:23:16
Originally by: Altaica Amur
Amarr: Exp/Kin resists Minmatar: EM/Therm resists Caldari: Therm/Kin resists Gallente: Kin/Therm resists
Lore wise vs reality, 3 out of 4 of these make sense.
- Amarr use lasers that do EM and thermal damage, so yes, Minmatar have above average EM/Therm resists; - Caldari can do all damage types but a lot of their ships have Kinetic +25% bonusses. No wonder Gallente developed extra Kinetic resists; - Gallente use hybrids, meaning Thermal/Kinetic damage only; - Minmatar use all damage types but only the NPC version of them deals high explosive damage; for player ships this doesn't make any sense.
Also, Minmatar T2 cruisers have the best overall resistance, an average of 45% vs 40% for Caldari and a little less for Gallente/Amarr.
I'm not complaining though! <3 my Jaguar!
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.11.30 21:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Also, Minmatar T2 cruisers have the best overall resistance, an average of 45% vs 40% for Caldari and a little less for Gallente/Amarr.
Depends how you look at it, right? Maybe that explains Amarr T2 not having any resist hole. Also, Minmatar Exp/Kin is the Minmatar damage types - even if you want to look to Phased Plasma and say that there's some variation.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.11.30 23:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Liang Nuren If Kinetic is merely decent, then Amarr T2 ships do not have any resist hole at all - considering their "hole" is still higher than Minnie T2's kinetic resist.
I never said Amarr T2 armor had a hole. I'm pretty sure I said the opposite in fact: "
Quote: I think the reason I'm complaining about Thermal is because its not that high, and its already a real ***** to get your resists high enough to matter on an armor tanked Minnie T2.
OK, what ship are you talking about specifically? Because I'm looking at the Muninn and Loki with Therm in the 60-70 range. Perhaps it's just a matter of taste, but I can live with 67.5% baseline thermal resist.
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Doddy
Burning Vendetta
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Posted - 2010.11.30 23:47:00 -
[25]
Amarr shoot em/therm so minmatar have em/therm resist bonus Minmatar shoot exp/kin (mainly) so amarr have exp/kin resist bonus, its simple really.
Its less of a problem than you might think in minmatar as they generally don't have that many med slots to boost the tank further, unlike amarr armour tanks.
P.s Caldari designed their ships to shoot gallene who do not deal em damage so its hardly surprising they are left with an em hole.
What really gets me is that ccp had the factions devise their armour/sheilds against their lore opponents strengths then did the opposite with ewar. Amarr should have developed target painters for dealing with lo-sig high speed minmatar ships while minmatar should have developed tracking disruptors to boost the advantages of their higher speed/lower sig against amarr turrets.
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Jacob Stov
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Posted - 2010.12.01 00:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/11/2010 16:30:57
If Kinetic is merely decent, then Amarr T2 ships do not have any resist hole at all - considering their "hole" is still higher than Minnie T2's kinetic resist. I think the reason I'm complaining about Thermal is because its not that high, and its already a real ***** to get your resists high enough to matter on an armor tanked Minnie T2.
-Liang
Ed: Basically, with Gallente, plug explosive (or EM!). With Caldari, plug EM. With Amarr, plug Thermal. With Minmatar, plug Exp/Kin and hope for the best on Thermal
What is exactly your issue ? One kin rigg + 1 invul and you are ready to go with minmatar.
They get all the good things with their small sig and high speed. Minmatar armor tank ? No problem, can be easily turned into a shield/speed tank.
Now try to fit a Caldari ship for armor/sig tank. See the difference ?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.01 00:09:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/12/2010 00:12:54
Originally by: Jacob Stov What is exactly your issue ? One kin rigg + 1 invul and you are ready to go with minmatar.
Your reading comprehension is fantastic. Thank you for talking about shields when we're talking about armor.
-Liang
Ed: And with regards to armor or sig tanking your Caldari ships... well I would hazard a guess that armor tanking a Cerb is a better bet than shield tanking a Muninn. And armor tanking the Muninn is pretty lol because of dual resist holes.
Oh, and I'm willing to bet that I have better Calamari skills than you. Probably on more than one character, too. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.12.01 00:20:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Target Painter on 01/12/2010 00:20:46
Originally by: Liang Nuren And armor tanking the Muninn is pretty lol because of dual resist holes.
The Muninn in general is pretty lol. I've always imagined it as punishment for the Vagabond.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.01 00:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Grimpak I'm kind of impressed. People are now complaining about the racial resists on T2 ships?
I mean, now? like five years after they were first introduced and ever since then they didn't receive any sort of change or whatever?
people are, indeed, running out of things to complain.
what's next, mining lasers are lasers and they are supposed to do EM/therm damage aswel?
Maybe they're just now actually seeing a pattern. While not deserving of the coveted gold star sticker, I would like to give them a silver for effort.
Oh, and I support your mining laser proposal only as long as a barge can fit a siege module.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.01 00:32:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Target Painter The Muninn in general is pretty lol. I've always imagined it as punishment for the Vagabond.
The Vaga's pretty sweet if you're interested in running away and killing frigs that try to chase you. Otherwise, I'd rather fly something else (and I don't mean a Cynabal...).
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
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