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Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.30 20:55:00 -
[1]
Currently, if you join a fleet with an armor mindlinked commander you transparently aquire 15% extra armor HP, magically improving your armor plates instantly. No repping required.
If you do the same with a shield (siege) mindlink, however, your current shield total remains the same and you have 15% shield damage. You will need to repair this to get the benefit of the additional HP, be it through patience or active repping.
Then it gets worse--if your commander disconnects, passes control to another, or some other fleet organization changes, or you simply jump into the next system you LOSE the extra shield, and even if your bonus-giver has equivalent (or less) of a bonus, you need to regenerate/repair it as if from scratch, again.
Armor bonuses? Shift fleet all you want. Reduces/augments your armor total on the fly.
For smaller ships this is usually mitigated within a few minutes. For battleships it can take longer, and forget about ever seeing your extra shield bonus if you're in a capital ship jumping into a firefight. One can only laugh if you get a leviathan bonus; you'll be at 60% shields and need a triage carrier remote repairing you if you hope to see 100% shields anytime soon.
On top of this free HP boost, armor tankers even have an implant set to improve their armor total even more. That's fine; shield and armor tanking are different and I like the diversity (raw HP vs regenerated). But for gang bonuses the difference in behavior is just too disruptive to be remotely equated.
Change the shield fleet bonuses to be applied instantly and completely like other gang bonuses.
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Commoner
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.11.30 20:56:00 -
[2]
Supported.
This is a painw when you're roaming in smaller gangs with a few scimitars etc....
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Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.30 20:59:00 -
[3]
Supporting my own topic!
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EdFromHumanResources
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.30 21:10:00 -
[4]
Not empty posting
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.11.30 21:20:00 -
[5]
Sokratesz tried getting that passed in CSM 4.
Original AH thread so people don't relive the same debate again.
Arguments against had been: 1. Boost to passive tank was unfair, compensated by not being immediate boost to total tank. 2. Drake haters.
Arguments for... well, you got the idea.
The compromise in the thread was to have the recharge rate slow down equal to the increase in shields from the gang bonus. Despite that, CSM voted 7/2 against the proposal.
I supported it then, I support it now.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.30 21:43:00 -
[6]
I thought it might have been brought up before, but lol searching eve forums.
After reading that, however, I noticed that the arguments against it are specious--especially the "free T2 Shield recharger" one. Armor bonuses give TWO free T2 Regenerative plate modules, effectively.
Additionally, the passive tanking argument, while somewhat valid, is also less of an issue. Yes, you tank slightly harder thanks to the gang bonus, but the worst case scenario--a mindlinked leviathan boosted brick drake gang--is both unlikely to be seen and can be addressed with the "compromise" of a recharge time penalty added to the leviathan. A mindlink alone doesn't have that dramatic an effect.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.11.30 21:47:00 -
[7]
so what happens if you are fighting in armor, and have a friend keep toggling fleet booster role on and off repeatedly? every time you get 10% shields magically appear in middle of a fight when everyone's in armor
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Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.30 21:49:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Fuujin on 30/11/2010 21:53:50 Edited by: Fuujin on 30/11/2010 21:51:20 What happens when you're fighting in armor, and the armor booster toggles fleet booster on and off repeatedly?
The shield bonus should appear based on your shield percentage--if you are at 0% shields and get a gang bonus, you still have 0% shields. If you're at 50%, you stay at 50% and only get half the bonus immediately applied...the total potential goes up.
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Reed Tiburon
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.11.30 21:51:00 -
[9]
This is obvious and should have been done long ago.
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Devilish Ledoux
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.30 22:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Reed Tiburon This is obvious and should have been done long ago.
Not emptyquoting.
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steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.11.30 22:04:00 -
[11]
Edited by: steave435 on 30/11/2010 22:04:22
Originally by: Ephemeron so what happens if you are fighting in armor, and have a friend keep toggling fleet booster role on and off repeatedly? every time you get 10% shields magically appear in middle of a fight when everyone's in armor
Same thing that happens when you do this with armor ships and armor bonuses.
The "it's unfair since shield tanks get passive recharge" argument is honestly nothing but pure BS. Passive recharge is one of the advantages that shield tanking as a whole gets to make up for its disadvantages, like difficulty in fitting ewar, tackle and anti-ewar like eccm. The gang bonus is then supposed to boost the gangs shield tank as a whole, not only a very specific part of it that is very rarely used in situations where you actually have gang bonuses. Passive tanks would not be affected by this change since the first 10-15% shield is pretty irrelevant to them anyway since recharge is almost 0 up there and they already get the recharge rate boost from getting increased maximum shield, but it would help make shield buffered ships more viable.
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Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.12.01 04:20:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 01/12/2010 04:20:11 Not to mention this whole issue makes shield tanking supercaps even more **** than they would be, seeing how they lose several millions EHP when there's a friendly leviathan around, as opposed to armor ones, where an erebus gives a straight out instant bonus. ---
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M Blanc
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Posted - 2010.12.01 06:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Reed Tiburon This is obvious and should have been done long ago.
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titains
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Posted - 2010.12.01 06:38:00 -
[14]
Supported. It's time this is fixed.
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Nischara
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Posted - 2010.12.01 06:41:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Nischara on 01/12/2010 06:44:08 please extend the proposal to include boarding ships - (module and skill bonuses)
boarding a ship in pos to find it at 30% shield kills response times for my corps playstile
also it's just sad seing my corpmate show up in an armor raven, because a shield raven would be a worse option a few seconds after switching ships
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.12.01 11:07:00 -
[16]
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.12.01 11:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: M Blanc
Originally by: Reed Tiburon This is obvious and should have been done long ago.
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Cyrus Doul
Infinite Covenant
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Posted - 2010.12.01 15:34:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 01/12/2010 15:34:49 CSM blows smoke out there ************************************************** some times. This is one of those times.
I would however support that we sit down and figure out how long it takes say your lev or whatever to hit full shields, then implement a timer for the Erebus and Avatar boosts that takes just as long so when the titan jumps in they have to wait 50 minutes or whatever. then their effect triggers. fair is fair.
Also idk if the avatar's cap buff is instant or like the Lev's if its instant i would argue that passive cap recharge can sometimes be more valuable in a RR fleet then passive shield recharge. And by sometimes I mean pretty much always. Other then the russians with their drakes it seems everyone and their brother flies armour any more anyways
Should the rag have the timer? It's not effecting hp, but i guess the argument could be made that it would sort of effect EHP as the ship gets smaller and harder to hit so it takes more Missiles, Rounds, whatever to get the job done.
edit: forgot the checkbox
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Jita mcheck
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Posted - 2010.12.01 18:02:00 -
[19]
Not Supported.
Diffrent is good.
It also allows me to see if I am getting a bonus fairly easy. The slight missing shield when i join fleet or move around lets me know it's working.
Also I like the ideaof jumping through a gate and having to wait for all systems to sycronize and be up and running.
Gameplay wise it is also good as the defence should always hold an ever soslight advantage.
I would really hate to see this go and further dumbing down of the game. Wy not just make everything the same.
We could all fly the same ship with the same stats and engadge under the exact same conditions...
We could call the game battle grounds..WOW what a great idea.
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steave435
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.01 18:34:00 -
[20]
Quote: Diffrent is good.
Diffrent is good, when it's balanced. This is just 1 being worse then the other.
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Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.01 18:41:00 -
[21]
supported.
IF armor reps get their effect moved to the beginning of the cycle and armor also gets a magic regeneration feature :)
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Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.01 19:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ogogov supported.
IF armor reps get their effect moved to the beginning of the cycle and armor also gets a magic regeneration feature :)
I'll meet you halfway. Either shield bonuses apply instantly, or armor bonuses need to be repped up to be applied.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.01 19:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ogogov supported.
IF armor reps get their effect moved to the beginning of the cycle and armor also gets a magic regeneration feature :)
Can shield tanks get an XL extender comparable to the 1600mm plate?
Can shield tanks get passive full gamut resist modules comparable to the EANM?
Can shield tanks get equal HP repped/cap spent to armor (XL shield v L armor and L RR shield v L RR armor Cap shield v Cap armor)?
That passive regen is great... for a few cruiser/bc hulls but, in a game where RR > local rep, the larger armor buffers on every other ship easily make up for that.
So shields are OP, despite all their negatives, because the rep comes at the beginning of the cycle. This is your argument.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Bobbeh
Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.12.02 04:19:00 -
[24]
Wow all the Shield haters out there f*ck yourselves. You ever have to Passive Regen 1million shield hp? How bout triage it? (just a hint it takes 2 cycles,unless your running a 4 rep unstable triage carrier).
Thats the Wyvern for ya when a Leviathan jumps onto Grid. Its not some Lil smidgen off your shields a scimitar can rep in a few cycles. Heres some Numbers for you
Wyvern all 5s with 3 caldari navy pdus and 3 large CDFE 2's, ALl level 5's and A Level 5 Levi Suppling Bonus.
2,572,595 Raw Shield HP (Without Bonus's) 3,537,317 Raw Shield HP 22981.8 Recharge in Seconds thats 383.03 Minutes and 6.3838 Hours to regen from 0...
So when levi Jumps in your Total Shields Goes up to 3.5 million but your current shields stay at 2.5 million.
Now lets Regen that 1 million, ok so if you assume straight line regen (which you cant cause regen slows near top of shields and peaks near 30%) you regen 153.9 per second. This means to Regen 1mil shield hp on a straight line it would take 6497.72579597141 seconds, or in Hours 1.8 hours to Passively Regen the Bonus from a leviathan, with max skills.
Ok how bout Triage. Running a Thanatos with all Cap power relays and Cap rechargers you can be cap stable running 4 Capital Shield Reps in Triage. ( all lvl 5 skills) Which rep 1200 per repper per second, which is 4800 per second which will Rep the Wyvern in 3.47 minutes. Now thats assuming that every jump you will have time to triage yourself, with a perfect triage toon. Oh and Good Luck doing that In a Fleet fight as someone will DD your triage carrier as if they dont they gotta fight a full health wyvern not one at 60% primary tank.
Now lets Compare Armor Bonus's Aeon with Slaves and and an Erebus bonusing. 3,650,334 Raw Armor hp with slaves and no Regenerative Plates. and trimark 2's 3,942,361 Raw armor HP with the above plus akemons Implant 5,420,746 Raw Armor HP with Erebus bonus and Above
This means you Gain 1,478,385 Raw HP The Same Thanatos as above which also reps 4800 Armor hp per second would take 5.13 minutes to triage that much HP for an aeon. EXCEPT
They dont need to its immediately Applied to the ship and does not need to be repped.
So if you say Capital armor tanks and shield tanks are equal your f*cking WRONG, and stop eft warrioring your make believe capital skills.
Shields Need FIXING
Support this SH*t sooo hard
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klyeme
The Mind's Eye Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.12.02 05:10:00 -
[25]
Yes, needs fixing
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Cyrus Doul
Infinite Covenant
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Posted - 2010.12.02 05:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bobbeh Wow all the Shield haters out there f*ck yourselves. You ever have to Passive Regen 1million shield hp? How bout triage it? (just a hint it takes 2 cycles,unless your running a 4 rep unstable triage carrier).
Thats the Wyvern for ya when a Leviathan jumps onto Grid. Its not some Lil smidgen off your shields a scimitar can rep in a few cycles. Heres some Numbers for you
Wyvern all 5s with 3 caldari navy pdus and 3 large CDFE 2's, ALl level 5's and A Level 5 Levi Suppling Bonus.
2,572,595 Raw Shield HP (Without Bonus's) 3,537,317 Raw Shield HP 22981.8 Recharge in Seconds thats 383.03 Minutes and 6.3838 Hours to regen from 0...
So when levi Jumps in your Total Shields Goes up to 3.5 million but your current shields stay at 2.5 million.
Now lets Regen that 1 million, ok so if you assume straight line regen (which you cant cause regen slows near top of shields and peaks near 30%) you regen 153.9 per second. This means to Regen 1mil shield hp on a straight line it would take 6497.72579597141 seconds, or in Hours 1.8 hours to Passively Regen the Bonus from a leviathan, with max skills.
Ok how bout Triage. Running a Thanatos with all Cap power relays and Cap rechargers you can be cap stable running 4 Capital Shield Reps in Triage. ( all lvl 5 skills) Which rep 1200 per repper per second, which is 4800 per second which will Rep the Wyvern in 3.47 minutes. Now thats assuming that every jump you will have time to triage yourself, with a perfect triage toon. Oh and Good Luck doing that In a Fleet fight as someone will DD your triage carrier as if they dont they gotta fight a full health wyvern not one at 60% primary tank.
Now lets Compare Armor Bonus's Aeon with Slaves and and an Erebus bonusing. 3,650,334 Raw Armor hp with slaves and no Regenerative Plates. and trimark 2's 3,942,361 Raw armor HP with the above plus akemons Implant 5,420,746 Raw Armor HP with Erebus bonus and Above
This means you Gain 1,478,385 Raw HP The Same Thanatos as above which also reps 4800 Armor hp per second would take 5.13 minutes to triage that much HP for an aeon. EXCEPT
They dont need to its immediately Applied to the ship and does not need to be repped.
So if you say Capital armor tanks and shield tanks are equal your f*cking WRONG, and stop eft warrioring your make believe capital skills.
Shields Need FIXING
Support this SH*t sooo hard
I`m going to guess the Lev and Ere run about the same times for their shields too? thanks for the math
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Bobbeh
Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.12.02 05:36:00 -
[27]
WEll the Levi will be Similar Yes, but the Erebus won't matter as shields arent its primary tank so its not as effected by the problem as the levi and rag
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.12.02 05:38:00 -
[28]
A nice change for fleet bonus for siege warfare. At the moment siege leadership bonus are the only leadership bonus that do not take full effect the moment they are applied requiring some kind of set up time. Your gang changing systems should not require shield repair/regen.
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lookitdisalt
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Posted - 2010.12.02 08:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: M Blanc
Originally by: Reed Tiburon This is obvious and should have been done long ago.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.12.02 09:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ogogov supported.
IF armor reps get their effect moved to the beginning of the cycle and armor also gets a magic regeneration feature :)
Sure, but the new large remote repper will now use PG in proportion to the CPU cost of a shield transporter. So, say hello to your new 3500 MW large RAR II! Start buying those RCU IIs!
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