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Tryaz
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Posted - 2010.12.05 14:55:00 -
[1]
I was wondering: what sort of DPS will a well fit, well flown, Hybrid/Laser turret cruiser/bc (realistically) put out?
I'm asking because I'm fitting a neut ship and need to think about how much of a HP buffer I will need
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Daneel Trevize
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2010.12.05 15:04:00 -
[2]
BC: ~700 at close range. Could be nearer 600, could be heated/fitted to 800+. |
Tryaz
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Posted - 2010.12.05 15:10:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Daneel Trevize BC: ~700 at close range. Could be nearer 600, could be heated/fitted to 800+.
Thanks Daneel, I presume you have a specific fit in mind. How long do you think your 700dps bc's Cap will last?
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Daneel Trevize
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2010.12.05 15:41:00 -
[4]
All depends if they have a neut, nos, run the mwd, rig for some cap, have a cap booster, even long points, different ammo types and skills make a difference.
Basic fitted brutix seems about 2500cap, harb 3100+. Different meta mwd and/or AB makes a notable difference, and again rigs like the semi one. |
Tryaz
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Posted - 2010.12.05 15:50:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Tryaz on 05/12/2010 15:50:29 Your help's appreciated Daneel.
After much thought this is the basic outline of the Vexor fit I'm coming up with:
Highs: 4x Small Neut II, Medium neut/nosferatu Mids: MWD and Web, cap booster/recharger Lows: Reactive plate, adaptive plate, cap power relay, biggest poss plate
Rigs 2x Medium Egress port maximiser and something else...
Drones for Damage
I'm struggling with powergrid, the main weakness is the the small neut range is 6.3km so I could be scrammed and kited (hence the medium neut/nos)
Should I go active instead of passive tank? (plates use up sooo much powergrid) I don't want to compromise my neut ability by using armor reps though...
This is mainly for FW fleets, what do you think of this as an outline fit?
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Larton Dretta
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Posted - 2010.12.05 16:45:00 -
[6]
Quote: [Vexor, New Setup 1] 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Nosferatu II Medium Energy Neutralizer II Medium Nosferatu II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Hobgoblin II x1 Hammerhead II x2 Ogre II x2 Warrior II x5
I'd go with this, but i don't know how FW fights look these days. A BC will put out beween 600 and 700 DPS, but that's EFT DPS, daubt anybody you'll face will have perfect skills, add to that the tracking and range issues.
If you're really asking these things, then i'd suggest you try out a T1 variant first (it'll require Engineering at only level 4), skip the rigs too. With the fitting i posted you won't need a Stasis Webefier, because your target's going to be sitting at 0 capacitor anyway, all you have to leave is a Small Energy Neutralizer running at the end. AB's there so that after you get close you just hit orbit at 500m and avoid as much fire as you can, it helps with missiles too.
You can fit this or either a full 1600mm plate tank and only small modules in high slots, they'll get the job done, just that it'll be "eventualy".
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Daneel Trevize
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:04:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 05/12/2010 17:06:23 Just wanted to point out that, IIRC, nos doesn't work on/take an enemy's cap below 40% (not certain quite when it won't cycle, if they must have complete cycle amount or partial is taken & received). And running your own repper slightly helps keep your cap below theirs so the nos works initially until they're too low. Bit of gamble though, might just be best to juggle the neuting and nosing to run both caps down. Or neut one target and nos another to fuel his mate's demise. |
Tryaz
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:06:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Tryaz on 05/12/2010 17:18:37 Edited by: Tryaz on 05/12/2010 17:17:18
Originally by: Larton Dretta
Quote: [Vexor, New Setup 1] 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Nosferatu II Medium Energy Neutralizer II Medium Nosferatu II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Hobgoblin II x1 Hammerhead II x2 Ogre II x2 Warrior II x5
Larton, I like the flexibility that the dual propulsion mods give, and the low slots make perfect sense. Noone seems to bother with their cap recharge rate, is it really not a problem? I can't quite believe that there's powergird on the Vexor for all of that but I guess there must be.Thanks for searching that out for me, it's given me alot to think about. The tip about stasis webifier's was a valuable one.
One question: why has this person gone for the small nosferatu II instead of a third neut?
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Tryaz
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Daneel Trevize Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 05/12/2010 17:06:23 Just wanted to point out that, IIRC, nos doesn't work on/take an enemy's cap below 40% (not certain quite when it won't cycle, if they must have complete cycle amount or partial is taken & received). And running your own repper slightly helps keep your cap below theirs so the nos works initially until they're too low. Bit of gamble though, might just be best to juggle the neuting and nosing to run both caps down. Or neut one target and nos another to fuel his mate's demise.
Great points and the whole cap balancing is my main reason for considering a repper (you're right though it would be a bit of a juggle). I have one question if you wouldn't mind. When we're talking about nos what does "energy transfer amount, 36 points" mean? What are points?
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Larton Dretta
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:14:00 -
[10]
There's no reason for the Small Nosferatu II, the high slots are for you to play with, they're there as a general idea, i'd keep it because it just cycles faster, so if you get heavy neuts on you you can always run a Warp Scrambler, etc.
@Daneel, The way NOS works is, it checks for who has the lower current capacitor capacity, percentage wise. It's there, because OP mentioned BCs and in standard setups a Harbringer or a Hurricane will have a Medium Neutralizer, your Medium Nosferatu should be able to let you keep up, that's all.
And if you happen to meet a Battleship, a Nosferatu will work for quite a while, simply because it'll take a long while for your Neutralizers to do any harm.
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Tryaz
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:19:00 -
[11]
Larton, doesn't fitting three trimark armor pumps make the AB a little pointless. Surely you'll be going about %60 slower when running your AB than you would without the pumps...
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Daneel Trevize
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:25:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 05/12/2010 17:26:09 The points are exactly the same ones as the 2500 and 3100 figures I mentioned. Capacitor capacity units. And as cap regens given time (at a varying rate with a peak like shields, etc), a ship would have slightly more than the base/EFT amount unless you can nuke it all in one go. But balancing that is the point that any target who's warped in or run almost any mod will already be down a bit vs someone sat in a gatecamp and already in range. All very minor differences mind.
Re: nos limits, I was mostly thinking about the case when the target's got more cap than you, more than the threshold (I think that's 40%), but not much more, would you get a full cycle rating's worth taken and recieved, or just whatever takes them down to the threshold, or no cycle or what. It's unlikely but that 1 cycle could decide things.
Re: rigs, train rigging skills, and you're still going faster with an AB and rigs than without, which helps against their tracking and explosions. |
Larton Dretta
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tryaz Edited by: Tryaz on 05/12/2010 17:22:36 Larton, doesn't fitting three trimark armor pumps make the AB a little pointless. Surely you'll be going about 30% slower when running your AB than you would without the pumps...
It's best in slot IMHO, that's all. Ev'ry little bit helps, since you don't care for your own tracking, you might aswell fit an AB. It's all dependant on what you aim to fight, if it's Frigates only then you'd probably fit a Stasis Webefier, but if you don't know, i'd go with an AB. There's no ultimate fitting, anything people post is just a guidance.
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Tryaz
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Daneel Trevize Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 05/12/2010 17:26:09 The points are exactly the same ones as the 2500 and 3100 figures I mentioned. Capacitor capacity units. And as cap regens given time (at a varying rate with a peak like shields, etc), a ship would have slightly more than the base/EFT amount unless you can nuke it all in one go. But balancing that is the point that any target who's warped in or run almost any mod will already be down a bit vs someone sat in a gatecamp and already in range. All very minor differences mind
Forgive me for being slow but I still don't understand these "capacitor capacity units"/points. I understand Giga Joules, are they the same as that?
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Daneel Trevize
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2010.12.05 18:02:00 -
[15]
Almost certainly. Seems EFT lacks the units, I wasn't sure there was one, doesn't really make a difference. |
Shawn Pierce
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.05 18:05:00 -
[16]
GigaJoules are the fancy name CCP puts on capacitor points, yes. |
Larton Dretta
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Posted - 2010.12.05 18:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shawn Pierce GigaJoules are the fancy name CCP puts on capacitor points, yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule
It's called how it's suppoused to be.
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Kal XL
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Posted - 2010.12.06 03:31:00 -
[18]
*dramatically removes glasses*
They should really just rate the capacitors in Farads like us current folk.
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Axemaster
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Posted - 2010.12.06 03:44:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Axemaster on 06/12/2010 03:44:47
Originally by: Kal XL *dramatically removes glasses*
They should really just rate the capacitors in Farads like us current folk.
Erm, no, because Farads means nothing if you don't know the voltage. Using joules allows you to express that info in just one number.
Gotta love "smart" people with "dramatic glasses".
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Kal XL
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Posted - 2010.12.06 08:09:00 -
[20]
Cool, got it. the glasses thing was a lame poke at the type of discussion. admitted failpost |
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Dabljuh
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Posted - 2010.12.06 09:46:00 -
[21]
Isn't a Farad a property of the capacitor, rather than its charge?
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Muad 'dib
Caldari The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2010.12.06 10:30:00 -
[22]
Confirming that there is nothing worse than a good old kick in the joules.
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Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
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Posted - 2010.12.06 12:23:00 -
[23]
Brutix tops out at about 1000 on paper, but more like 700 in reality Harbinger about 600-700ish on paper, target dependant ofc you'll actually be able to apply most of that aswell.
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Kal XL
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dabljuh Isn't a Farad a property of the capacitor, rather than its charge?
Right, like the other guy said, referring to the caps in terms of farads wouldnt really clear things up. The capacitance of a capacitor depends on how it is physically set up though. It just bugs me a little bit that they tried to fit in the word 'capacitor' as much as possible. Imo it was just to make it sound more "sciency."
Example: on the fitting page if you hover over your total cap, it says "capacitor capacity." Seriously, why not just call it energy?
The energy stored in a capacitor = .5 * Capacitance * Voltage^2. And as far as cap boosters, thats where I have no idea how it would boost the capacitance or even why, if boosting voltage is an option. I'm guessing this has all been brought up before though, probably by people who understand it better than me.
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Tryaz
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.07 13:33:00 -
[25]
Thanks to everyone for their help and insights. I'm looking forward to fitting this vexor and playing with the balance of the fit.
As for capacitor-acitor-icity....who knows. I just wish they'd clear up exactly how many GJ each cap booster is giving you
All my best to all of you
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rodensteiner
Amarr Shioshi
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:45:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kal XL
And as far as cap boosters, thats where I have no idea how it would boost the capacitance or even why, if boosting voltage is an option. I'm guessing this has all been brought up before though, probably by people who understand it better than me.
Liquid Schwartz
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I'm horrible at PVP |
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