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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.12.05 15:36:00 -
[1]
From the various Drakewhine threads, the following question emerges as a theme
Originally by: Ulstan
Why don't we see battleship fleets? Ah, now that's the *real* question.
So what's your opinion? Why do we not see many battleships - which should, in theory - be natural predators to battle cruisers. I'm not sure the question is a simple one, exactly, either.
So why do you think?
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Quendishir
Caldari The Immortal Dawn
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Posted - 2010.12.05 15:45:00 -
[2]
1.) Battleships require quite a few more skill points to fly effectively, where-as the Drake does not. Drakes require medium weapons, and battleships require large. Getting medium T2 weapons is a lot faster than T2 large.
2.) Battleships are large, slow, and cumbersome. It's difficult to sneak a battleship gang around an area; a battlecruiser gang has a better chance at stealth.
3.) Large ships means more chances of getting hot dropped. It's unlikely a carrier will be dropped on a group of 15 Drakes. A carrier, if it cane be fielded, will most likely be dropped on 15 battleships.
4.) Drakes (and other battlecruisers) cost a lot less than battleships.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.05 15:54:00 -
[3]
The increased prevalence of capships. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Mona X
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.05 15:59:00 -
[4]
Battleship fleets were wiped out by aHACs, on which Drakes prey on. And Drakes can breed, like 3 times faster than Battleships or aHACs.
Join Eve-Online, meet interesting people, grief them. |
Lili Lu
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Posted - 2010.12.05 16:33:00 -
[5]
BSs were, no not past tesnse yet, are being wiped out by AHACs partly due to on-grid warp mechanics being too easy and gun tracking overall needing a slight buff (no signal that CCP is addressing either of these)
BSs are being wiped out by Supercap blobs with fighter-bombers hitting them too hard (appears to getting addressed) One wonders whether Supercap blobs will just spew clouds of fighters instead and still leave BSs as relic wrecks.
BSs (most of which are armor tanked) are being wiped out by Drakes due to shield logistic advantages in lag, heavy missile range advantage negating theoretical higher dps on turret BSs, the fact that the Drake is the only BC with a BS sized tank, and thus economics favor their use. (some of these things are being "looked at" by CCP and you can be sure some change will be made "soon", otherwise the game will continue to become more and more Drakes online). |
Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.05 16:49:00 -
[6]
Main reasons are ease of gaining point for in grid warp (new probes for example) and to lesser extent bombers (that are more general antiblob tool). You still see battleships, just not the 'sniper' fleets of 150+ km engagement range (if you are closer than 150 they cant warp on top of you). Also under heavy lag missile delayed damage is no longer relevant, thats the reason for Drake popularity, and ofc the way shield logis work, but thats not central to the tactics in my opinion.
Fighters are mean, but fragile enough to be killed with relative ease and killing full wings of fighters sure ****es off the carrier/supercarrier pilots. Considerably more than losing few insured battleships does. Bombers work particularly well against fighters with mwd active btw. Without mwd on they can tank several bombs.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:48:00 -
[7]
-sadly sniper BS have a similar EHP/dps ratio of drake -BS have much longer lange but this is no more much of an advantage since ppl realized how to use probe and warp in when distances are higher than 150km. -a BS with T2 weapons require 2-3 times the SP needed to fly a drake. -BCs are very easy to crosstrain for everyone since the BC skill is not race dependant. -drake is MUCH cheaper than a BS to lse
for the lol a "sniper" tempest can push 430dps @ 78+72km with 75k EHP while a drake can push 410 dps at 84km (delayed) with 97K EHP
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Leto Atraities
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:50:00 -
[8]
just to hop off subject a little, what is the likelihood of a firewall cruise raven gang being able to effectively counter a drake gang? would it work out well? be nice to see something to deal with drake gangs other than just an opposing drake gang.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:55:00 -
[9]
Its not really an opinion but a matter of recorded fact that the insurance nerf caused the number of BS fleets to decline rapidly.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Vorpal's Edge
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Posted - 2010.12.05 17:58:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Quendishir 1.) Battleships require quite a few more skill points to fly effectively, where-as the Drake does not. Drakes require medium weapons, and battleships require large. Getting medium T2 weapons is a lot faster than T2 large.
2.) Battleships are large, slow, and cumbersome. It's difficult to sneak a battleship gang around an area; a battlecruiser gang has a better chance at stealth.
3.) Large ships means more chances of getting hot dropped. It's unlikely a carrier will be dropped on a group of 15 Drakes. A carrier, if it cane be fielded, will most likely be dropped on 15 battleships.
4.) Drakes (and other battlecruisers) cost a lot less than battleships.
5.) FB's (apparently not anymore tho?) |
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DeadDuck
Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.05 18:01:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mona X Battleship fleets were wiped out by aHACs, on which Drakes prey on. And Drakes can breed, like 3 times faster than Battleships or aHACs.
https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_battle.php?start_time=2010-10-22%2018:05:00&end_time=2010-10-22%2018:19:00&system=AY-YCU
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DeadDuck
Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.05 18:05:00 -
[12]
I've been engaged in a lot of battles and let me say that BS fleets are alive and kicking. The fact is that if you know what you are doing BS fleets WILL beat any other kind of fleets you put against them (except the SC's blobs of course), with enough logistics and with a good fitting AHacs Fleets, Drake Fleets, Bombers, BC's what ever you want to put in.. will be beaten even if the BS are outnumbered. |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.12.05 18:16:00 -
[13]
I've always been a BS fan since I first got a Tempest in 2004. The problem as I see it is that BSes today are akin to cruisers pre Dreads: easy to kill by frigs and BSes and largely unpopular because of it. The only exceptions really were t2.
So now the old king is now just a middle son and BSes haven't been changed to address this (not counting faction).
Give them all 3 more slots and change the way advancing up to t2 guns works.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Word of Chaos |
Lili Lu
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Posted - 2010.12.05 18:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Leto Atraities just to hop off subject a little, what is the likelihood of a firewall cruise raven gang being able to effectively counter a drake gang? would it work out well? be nice to see something to deal with drake gangs other than just an opposing drake gang.
Ok, think about it a little more. Firewall means you using smarties to try to kill missiles. What is a Raven shooting? Missiles. So . .
The firewall tactic worked very well in it's first try. Thereafter, counters started being employed, along with the fact that the tactic does not scale well, it also requires certain flight parameters of which I won't go into because I don't want to give those away. As I said, firewall BSs can work, but it is not an easy matter and has built in weaknesses. Regardless, all you have to do is look at INIT's killboard to see what they are flying now . . Drakes. |
1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.12.05 18:35:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Leto Atraities just to hop off subject a little, what is the likelihood of a firewall cruise raven gang being able to effectively counter a drake gang? would it work out well? be nice to see something to deal with drake gangs other than just an opposing drake gang.
try to ask in alliance how many people can fly a drake (or could fly it in leass than a week) and how many of them could fly a cruise raven and you get you answer.
personally im a minmatar pilot i have 7 million SP in missile because alot of minmatar ship make a good use of missiles and i also have BC5 to fly a max skilled drake would only take a couple of days to get caldari cruiser 3. also many amarr pilots have skilled missiles for sacrilege (probably not T2 HML but it dont take alot of time to get the skill at lv4 and be effective)
as you can see is very easy to crosstrain for the drake and jump in the bandwagon of the FOTM much easier than skill for a cruise raven
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Larton Dretta
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Posted - 2010.12.05 18:52:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Larton Dretta on 05/12/2010 18:55:01 its cuz ab zealot gangs **** them, kk NERF ZEALOT PLZ CCP
HURRRRRRRRR...
edit
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.05 18:54:00 -
[17]
Very simple, One word: Bombers.
Not only were bombs made pretty cheap with the two tweaks to the BPOs, but the skill requirements to use the ships were reduced thus opening them up to the unwashed masses.
The BS fleets were gone from the field long before the Drake/HAC swarms reared their ugly heads so they can not be blamed for the BS fleet's demise.
The capital blobs slowly formed as BS were removed as viable ships by the bombers .. sovereignty modules don't shoot themselves you know
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Hannibal Ord
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.12.05 19:25:00 -
[18]
The Drake was the direct counter to the increasingly larger groups of Armour HAC's (Fist gangs) made popular in practice by PL. They have greater range, and more mobility, with the advantage of using damps etc to slow down guardian support for these gangs, and also retain their own mobile logistics with scimitars and basilisks.
Whilst the dps of drake gangs is not as high as Zealot armour gangs, like previously mentioned it has greater range and also consistant dps at that range due to the lack of tracking issues.
The counter to drake blobs is generally considered to be Battleships gangs. The drake having a massive signiture, allows BS weapons to track fairly efficiently against them. Battleships have heavier EHP than drakes and since they can track them with their weapons, and hit them at equal or larger ranges, they win out.
The issue with battleships is just an issue with mobility. They are more difficult to disengage from a fight, and capital ships can easily hot drop them without them having the option to run. They are a perfect counter to drake gangs, but they are easy to catch.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.05 20:35:00 -
[19]
BS's lack mobility and require a whole hell of a lot more SP than BC and HAC blobs. They are also more expensive typically too. Their role is and always has been semi-static defense. They hold a gate, a station or some other strategic location. They are not roaming ships. Null sec fights have always been about mobility. So HAC's and shield tanked BC's have always been a favorite. The flavor changes some occasionally (vagabond swarms, AHAC, draketrain...), but mobility has always been the primary concern there unless shooting a structure. So this just isn't anything new tbh.
If you want to see regular BS fights you have to look to places where mobility isn't a major concern. FW is a good example. There are nearly nightly BS fleet fights between the amarr and minmatar militias. The reason this happens is the amarr militia is based in kourmonen, the minmatar in auga. And guess what? There is an auga/kourmonen gate. No points for guessing where that fight's going to happen. That's just one example, BS gangs can be found all over low sec as most groups in low sec operate in small defined areas. Mobility just isn't a major concern.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.05 20:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: King Rothgar That's just one example, BS gangs can be found all over low sec as most groups in low sec operate in small defined areas. Mobility just isn't a major concern.
Its not just mobility, but also the fact that HG slaves are being used regularly which boost armor BS performance by a huge margin.
And sentry guns, in the absence of logistics (though thats kinda rare these days in lowsec) BCs just dont cut it in an even fight if you are also taking senry fire.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.05 21:17:00 -
[21]
Slave sets aren't nearly as common as you'd think. The 2B isk price tag keeps the vast majority out of them, even in low sec where it is reasonably safe for implants. And of course, those implants work just as well on an armor tanked HAC or BC. I've got a harbinger with more tank than an unslaved armageddon and I didn't sacrifice much dps to do it. Sentry guns aren't that big of an issue for a small BC gang. They murder drones with brutal efficiency which can be a problem but the ships themselves should be fine.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.05 21:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: King Rothgar Slave sets aren't nearly as common as you'd think. The 2B isk price tag keeps the vast majority out of them, even in low sec where it is reasonably safe for implants.
Well, not common in the general fw militia clone sure. The more organized permanent lowsec residents fielding BS fleets use them a lot though. 2B isnt really a lot of ISK by todays standards for a veteran player.
Yes, they are effective on armor BC hulls as well, but in these cases you could just as well field battleships since heavily plated trimarked BCs give up a lot of the primary BC advantages anyway.
Originally by: King Rothgar
Sentry guns aren't that big of an issue for a small BC gang. They murder drones with brutal efficiency which can be a problem but the ships themselves should be fine.
Depends on what 'small' means in terms of participants, and what odds you are willing to stack against you.
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.12.05 21:32:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Quendishir 1.) Battleships require quite a few more skill points to fly effectively, where-as the Drake does not. Drakes require medium weapons, and battleships require large. Getting medium T2 weapons is a lot faster than T2 large.
2.) Battleships are large, slow, and cumbersome. It's difficult to sneak a battleship gang around an area; a battlecruiser gang has a better chance at stealth.
3.) Large ships means more chances of getting hot dropped. It's unlikely a carrier will be dropped on a group of 15 Drakes. A carrier, if it cane be fielded, will most likely be dropped on 15 battleships.
4.) Drakes (and other battlecruisers) cost a lot less than battleships.
This pretty much sums it up. Battleships are slow and fat. They can't chase and they can't run. The only thing I would add is MOMs. MOMs pwn battleships, even with the new dmg tweak. Most MOMs carry normal fighters and even 20 heavy drones hurts like a *****, especially in the endless waves MOMs can field.
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.12.05 23:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: James Lyrus
So what's your opinion? Why do we not see many battleships - which should, in theory - be natural predators to battle cruisers. I'm not sure the question is a simple one, exactly, either.
Err... you do see a lot of battleships fighting in the Drone regions. PL uses Abaddons to counter Drakes on a pretty much daily basis and even shifted over to shield BSes. And since alpha is basically the only thing that allows you to break through heavy (1-in-5 or higher ratio of logis) reps, everyone is making the transition to shield BSes using 1400s as standard in fleets.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2010.12.05 23:31:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ulstan on 05/12/2010 23:35:25
Originally by: Quendishir 1.) Battleships require quite a few more skill points to fly effectively, where-as the Drake does not. Drakes require medium weapons, and battleships require large. Getting medium T2 weapons is a lot faster than T2 large.
This is really only true of gun battleships. Tech 2 cruise missiles and torps are easy to train for.
Cruise ravens would counter drakes, if it comes to that. But cruise ravens are not particularly powerful and when other BS can counter drakes and be more effective, they are preferred.
But it's not particularly hard to skill into BS that will beat drake. Everyone can fly ravens anyway thanks to it being a popular pve boat.
The BS being big and slow, where speed counts for so much, is a big mark against them. The ridiculous proliferation and power of capitals is another.
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.05 23:54:00 -
[26]
The BS you are looking for has died with QR.
This is the opinion form somebody that flies solo/small gang BS every day. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.12.06 01:46:00 -
[27]
Tactics are introduced. Tactics are adapted to. Tactics change. It's alot better then "it has to survive two doomsdays!"
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.06 02:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: King Rothgar Slave sets aren't nearly as common as you'd think. The 2B isk price tag keeps the vast majority out of them, even in low sec where it is reasonably safe for implants.
Well, not common in the general fw militia clone sure. The more organized permanent lowsec residents fielding BS fleets use them a lot though. 2B isnt really a lot of ISK by todays standards for a veteran player.
Yes, they are effective on armor BC hulls as well, but in these cases you could just as well field battleships since heavily plated trimarked BCs give up a lot of the primary BC advantages anyway.
Originally by: King Rothgar
Sentry guns aren't that big of an issue for a small BC gang. They murder drones with brutal efficiency which can be a problem but the ships themselves should be fine.
Depends on what 'small' means in terms of participants, and what odds you are willing to stack against you.
Among the veterans (guys playing 2+ years) they are somewhat common. But if you ever take a look around low sec, that's a terribly small minority. The player base as a whole is about 6 month to 2 years old. So really only the top guys in any region are going to have them. Sometimes they are concentrated in pirate corps but even within long standing pirate corps, it's rare to have more than 50% of the guys with them. In the general amarr militia I doubt it's more than 5%.
As for small gang, yeah, that's a little vague. I meant small as in 4-5 BC's. It does matter, mostly due to drone concerns but in the grand scheme of things I don't view sentry aggro as that big of a deal as long as it's shared. That said if by small you mean 2 BC's then yeah, it's going to suck.
In regards to plating and trimarking BC's, the BC's main advantages are tracking, scan resolution, speed and agility. Plating and trimarking does cut into the speed and agility part. However that opens your midslots for sebo's and webs boosting the other two advantages. You can also do the opposite and go with a nano shield tank, this increases speed, agility and damage at the expense of scan resolution, EW and tank. It's all a balancing act. Both methods are useful in different situations. It's why I always keep a nano-cane and a plated harbinger/hurricane handy.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.12.06 03:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ulstan
This is really only true of gun battleships. Tech 2 cruise missiles and torps are easy to train for.
Cruise ravens would counter drakes, if it comes to that. But cruise ravens are not particularly powerful and when other BS can counter drakes and be more effective, they are preferred.
This would be true if Ravens were good. Torps have exceedingly short range. Not quite blaster short, but pretty damn short. Cruise missiles have low DPS, by battleship standards, and an obnoxious flight time. Not only that, but WHO USES SHIELD BSs? Seriously now, how many shield BS fleets do you see? Answer: you don't. BS is all about armor. Abaddon, Mega, Apoc, Geddon, Phoon, Tempest or go home.
Originally by: Ulstan
But it's not particularly hard to skill into BS that will beat drake. Everyone can fly ravens anyway thanks to it being a popular pve boat.
Trust me, I WISH the Raven was good. I'd fly it everyday.
Originally by: Ulstan
The BS being big and slow, where speed counts for so much, is a big mark against them. The ridiculous proliferation and power of capitals is another.
The power of capitals is 90% the power of the super carrier. Super carriers are a "battleship go bye bye" kind of ship, even with the new FB damage. Given that 90% of all SCs are Nyx's and can easily carry normal fighters AND FBs, that damage nerf only forced them to recall drones and deploy new ones. I don't see that changing the BS dynamic. Also, speed is the ultimate equalizer and it's where battleships suck. Battleships as a whole need a buff.
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.06 13:17:00 -
[30]
Supercarriers can be countered in fleets with adaption of tackiks. For example the 'firewall' composition could be used against them quite easily. Fighters and fighterbombers are mean, but losing em by the dozen greatly irritates pilots fielding them. All you need is support wing with proper overview settings and if they are any good they will pop them 5 per volley (one for each squad).
That out of way - I personally dont like superscapitals and believe that EVE would be better place without titans and supercarriers/moms. Titans are used just like mobile jump bridges and supercarriers (with increasing number of them in the fleets) are making dreads kinda pointless. At least supercarriers cant shoot POS towers yet. Well other than Sentry drones ofc, but those are not that good at it.
Overall though I dont buy the mantra that battleships fleets are not used bcos of supercarriers. If that would be the case we would see on a daily basis 100 carrier drops to 'decide a battle' - it takes the resources of roughly 4 supercarriers to field a 100 carrier blob. The 100 carrier blob would be a lot tougher to take out than handful of supercarriers. Ok I have seen up to 15 or SC's dropped on field against the fleet on my side. But even that is not that scary - all you need is to kill their fighters/fighterbombers. Drakes would be actually good at it btw ;)
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.12.06 15:02:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Carniflex Supercarriers can be countered in fleets with adaption of tackiks. For example the 'firewall' composition could be used against them quite easily. Fighters and fighterbombers are mean, but losing em by the dozen greatly irritates pilots fielding them. All you need is support wing with proper overview settings and if they are any good they will pop them 5 per volley (one for each squad).
That out of way - I personally dont like superscapitals and believe that EVE would be better place without titans and supercarriers/moms. Titans are used just like mobile jump bridges and supercarriers (with increasing number of them in the fleets) are making dreads kinda pointless. At least supercarriers cant shoot POS towers yet. Well other than Sentry drones ofc, but those are not that good at it.
Overall though I dont buy the mantra that battleships fleets are not used bcos of supercarriers. If that would be the case we would see on a daily basis 100 carrier drops to 'decide a battle' - it takes the resources of roughly 4 supercarriers to field a 100 carrier blob.
That's because the hot drops have already happened. People have already learned their lesson. Now that there are no more BS fleets to hot drop there are fewer hot drops happening. Battleship fleets = hot drop me. Hot dropping a BC fleet doesn't guarantee as many kills. They're faster, they align faster, and they still put up a decent tank. Hot dropping a BS fleet means you can catch just about everything.
Originally by: Carniflex
The 100 carrier blob would be a lot tougher to take out than handful of supercarriers.
SCs need to be bubbled to be caught and they take forever to chew through. Once the bubblers are down they happily jump away. Low sec is especially easy for them because only a scripted hictor can point them. No hictor? No problem. Recall drones, jump away, laugh.
Originally by: Carniflex
Ok I have seen up to 15 or SC's dropped on field against the fleet on my side. But even that is not that scary - all you need is to kill their fighters/fighterbombers. Drakes would be actually good at it btw ;)
Yes, Drakes are very good at it. Battleships have ****ty tracking, so hitting fighters isn't exactly efficient unless you plan on webbing them one by one. Heavy missiles. on the other hand, are much better.
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Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
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Posted - 2010.12.06 15:36:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Tippia The increased prevalence of capships.
Im going to expand on this and add that the triage boost made this worse to, having a triage carrier dropped on a small BS gang is getting more and more common and BS have fewer escape options than smaller ships and are more costly to lose than say BCs with cheaper medium rigs.
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.06 16:34:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Kai Yuen
Originally by: Carniflex ...
That's because the hot drops have already happened. People have already learned their lesson. Now that there are no more BS fleets to hot drop there are fewer hot drops happening. Battleship fleets = hot drop me. Hot dropping a BC fleet doesn't guarantee as many kills. They're faster, they align faster, and they still put up a decent tank. Hot dropping a BS fleet means you can catch just about everything.
Originally by: Carniflex
The 100 carrier blob would be a lot tougher to take out than handful of supercarriers.
SCs need to be bubbled to be caught and they take forever to chew through. Once the bubblers are down they happily jump away. Low sec is especially easy for them because only a scripted hictor can point them. No hictor? No problem. Recall drones, jump away, laugh.
Originally by: Carniflex
Ok I have seen up to 15 or SC's dropped on field against the fleet on my side. But even that is not that scary - all you need is to kill their fighters/fighterbombers. Drakes would be actually good at it btw ;)
Yes, Drakes are very good at it. Battleships have ****ty tracking, so hitting fighters isn't exactly efficient unless you plan on webbing them one by one. Heavy missiles. on the other hand, are much better.
I must say that BS fleets I'm in dont get hotdropped all that often. Then again I'm usually in the blob big enough to pop a carrier faster than it's session change timer can expire. Ofc of late I have been flying Drake blobs more than I have battleships. Mobility is greater to lesser extent and a lot cheaper to bridge those around the map.
As far as SC go I would like to point out that bubbles or infinipoint are not the only option for keeping it there. You can neut it enough to prevent capacitor rising above 70%. Immediately after the jump capaictor is about 25 %. Takes a bit above 70% of capacitor to jump anywhere. As far as catching a battleship in SC goes tho - I would not say that those things are especially agile or lock exceptionally fast. So the few seconds difference between getting to warp between BC and BS is not that essential. SC hotropes are more often used to gank solo carriers doing anomalies in non cynojammed systems or at jump bridges and even there few neutralizer batteries can lower that risk considerably.
Anyway - few bombers and problem of fighters is solved. Back in the south I have seen FC ordering a bombing run on his own fleet. Yeh - he lost few ships in it. I and 30 other carriers lost a full flight of fighters. As a carrier/SC might be able to field another flight of that stuff - if he skips the fighterbombers, but if carrier loses full flight of fighters it's basically castrated. Not enough room for second full flight of them.
So bombers are not all bad things making one to not see BS blobs. They can be countered with tackiks (3-5 warp in points, warp at random, few squads of HAC's with piles of sensor boosters and bombers on overview. Dead bombers bombs dont explode. Unfortunately deep safes were removed. Damn hard to counter bombers on gate, unless you bubble your own fleet at jump in. In the past you usually just popped 2-3 suicide cynos 200 - 300 au away and bridged the fleet into one of them and when FC loaded he warped fleet to POS. By the time bombers arrived all that was there was bubble and anti bomber HAC's.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:20:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Quendishir 1.) Drakes are g** and everyone loves a bandwagon.
2.). Drakes are g** and everyone loves a bandwagon.
3.) drakes are... Well you get the picture...
4.) Drakes (and other battlecruisers) cost a lot less than battleships and are g**.
Fixed it for you. |
Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:26:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Carniflex
I must say that BS fleets I'm in dont get hotdropped all that often. Then again I'm usually in the blob big enough to pop a carrier faster than it's session change timer can expire. Ofc of late I have been flying Drake blobs more than I have battleships. Mobility is greater to lesser extent and a lot cheaper to bridge those around the map.
So you've never seen a hot drop on your BS fleet. You think that means anything? You think CCP would release an FB damage nerf vs battleships because it sounded like fun? Personal experience is not fact, it's just a lack of coincidence in your case. Clearly all the evidence points to the contrary.
Originally by: Carniflex
As far as SC go I would like to point out that bubbles or infinipoint are not the only option for keeping it there. You can neut it enough to prevent capacitor rising above 70%. Immediately after the jump capaictor is about 25 %. Takes a bit above 70% of capacitor to jump anywhere. As far as catching a battleship in SC goes tho - I would not say that those things are especially agile or lock exceptionally fast. So the few seconds difference between getting to warp between BC and BS is not that essential. SC hotropes are more often used to gank solo carriers doing anomalies in non cynojammed systems or at jump bridges and even there few neutralizer batteries can lower that risk considerably.
In the case of a fleet entirely composed of Nyxs and Hels, sure, but any smart Wyvern or Aeon pilot knows to pack cap transfers for the cap spider and to cap other SCs up and it takes at least 20 neuts just to cancel out an SCs passive recharge, never mind making it go down. Between that and the cap spider they can still cap up.
Originally by: Carniflex
Anyway - few bombers and problem of fighters is solved. Back in the south I have seen FC ordering a bombing run on his own fleet. Yeh - he lost few ships in it. I and 30 other carriers lost a full flight of fighters. As a carrier/SC might be able to field another flight of that stuff - if he skips the fighterbombers, but if carrier loses full flight of fighters it's basically castrated. Not enough room for second full flight of them.
Amazingly enough, the SC problem was only one cause of the fail cascade that killed the battleship fleet. The doomsday change had a lot to say about it as well.
Originally by: Carniflex
So bombers are not all bad things making one to not see BS blobs. They can be countered with tackiks
Who the hell says "tackiks" anyways. That just makes you look ******ed. There a reason you have to immitate a 12 year old to get your point across? YesbroImirritated if not mad. On that note, why should you have to go so far out of your way to set up your "tackiks" when an SC fleets' "tackiks" is as simple as jump and launch bombers? If a ship is so OP that you have to bend over backwards to counter it even when you vastly outnumber them then clearly it needs a change.
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.06 17:42:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kai Yuen
Who the hell says "tackiks" anyways. That just makes you look ******ed. There a reason you have to immitate a 12 year old to get your point across? YesbroImirritated if not mad. On that note, why should you have to go so far out of your way to set up your "tackiks" when an SC fleets' "tackiks" is as simple as jump and launch bombers? If a ship is so OP that you have to bend over backwards to counter it even when you vastly outnumber them then clearly it needs a change.
Sorry to offend you. English is not my native language
Dont like SC's myself either. Although I dont see them as only reason of all things evil in this world either. If you put it that way then all things 'can just jump in and f1 ... f8' - real EVE is more complex. You can do things differently to minimize the effect what your opponents 'f1 .. f8' has and maximize yours. Bombing or smartbombing few hundred fighter-bombers or fighters into space dust is one of such things.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2010.12.06 18:37:00 -
[37]
It's not just super carriers. The change so that fleet ships no longer had to survive 2 DD's made all kinds of things suddenly more viable.
The speed issue is a pretty important one, I think. Speed/agility counts for so much in this game. You can move from system to system faster. You can get out of there if you get hotdropped/probed faster. You can force or decline engagements.
I'm wondering if we aren't loading too much importance on a single stat.
Maybe there should be two kinds of speed: an operational speed and a tactical speed. So, BS wouldn't MWD around as fast as BC but maybe they could enter warp as fast so jumping a BS gang around wasn't more time consuming than a BC gang.
It also feels strange that BS take longer to lock other ships of their class than lighter classes. Obviously you don't want BS catching frigs and such before they warp, but what if we were to make the locking process go much faster on same class hulls? Of course that would impact ewar substantially...
Just ideas on making BS fleets not seem so slow and flailing in comparison to fleets of lighter/faster ships.
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2010.12.06 18:50:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 06/12/2010 18:56:04 I said it in some other thread on the same topic, but i'll reiterate:
Am i the only one who consider the game to be better balanced now than in the past?
I see alot of doomsayers here trying to infer some coaxed up stalemate, i even listened to (half-) of that horrible DT-podcast where they kept complaining about almost any gang that has brought some diversity to EVE.
Today, a wide selection of gangs can be seen from NHAC to SHAC and AHAC (which itself has come and gone in flavor from CH to SoT to PL), people keep mentioning Drake blobs while alot of Cane-gangs (both shield and armor) are popular in smaller gang warfare. Bombers and stealthy gangs are mentioned (from Bomber to Recon/Tech III to Black Ops, the last admittedly with some rarity yet not unheard of), while traditional BS are far from dead as several alliances are employing Pulse-baddons, while you could see Domi-blobs not too long ago and various Faction-BS or small RR groups are not unheard of in the more truncated venues (low/NPC-null). You have virtually every ship class/bracket in the game represented in some moderately popular gang right now.
Compare that to the past when you'd choose from BS, BS or BS (Snipe, RR, or Logi/Carrier-supported) I kind of like the fact that tech II and BC-down can compete now. Gangs like AHACs enrich the game.
Even if the insurance nerf may have been a bit steep, i honestly don't understand the breadth of the complaints. Don't nerf ships, nerf mindless blobs.
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Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
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Posted - 2010.12.06 20:14:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Noisrevbus post
There is definitely a greater variety in the type of ships used now and generally its a good thing and most things are a lot more balanced, somethings I personally would like to see changed are Caldari gunboats and a reworking of the tier system to improve the lower tiers of frigates, cruisers and to a lesser extent BCs.
But yeah EVEs more balanced than ever.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2010.12.06 21:27:00 -
[40]
You can get into a perfectly viable pvp drake with all level 4 skills. Probably even before you can get into a viable pvp t1 cruiser.
Hence the spammage.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2010.12.06 23:53:00 -
[41]
Here's a thought: what if there were more and better shield BS, and BS could actually do shield RR? (Currently with the insane cpu reqs on shield xfers it's very hard).
Shield BS would, in theory, (especially if minmatar BS were shield) be more agile/quicker than armor BS. This should help them get out of sticky situations better. OTOH they'd have larger sigs and thus be even more vulnerable to bombers.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:14:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ulstan Here's a thought: what if there were more and better shield BS, and BS could actually do shield RR? (Currently with the insane cpu reqs on shield xfers it's very hard).
Shield BS fleets can be done with basilisk support rather nicely, way superior to any attempt at BS RR, just like armor BS work way better with guardians than BS RR.
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Shadow Lord77
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:14:00 -
[43]
Instead of nerfing the Drake, why not improve other ships?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:58:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/12/2010 04:05:16
Originally by: Noisrevbus Am i the only one who consider the game to be better balanced now than in the past?
No, but "Not BS", "Not BS", "Not BS", and "Not BS" isn't very balanced either. Also, "Not BS" kinda removes the "end game" SP. There's literally no PVP reason to train higher than BC/T3 anymore. Hell, you can even do pretty damn well in PVE with a T3, so who needs battleships even in the game anymore?
Not balanced. Better, but not balanced.
-Liang
Ed: On second thought, I guess you could train for a supercarrier, but there's already tons of them and its a 2+ year train where you don't get anything new/exciting until the very end. :| -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2010.12.07 05:10:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Shadow Lord77 Instead of nerfing the Drake, why not improve other ships?
Because the devs that could be tasked to that are all busy making walking in stations along with a host of other non pew pew related tasks and won't be available for another year or so. A general rebalance of the entire t1 line of ships would do wonders for the game far far past expanding into even more new directions but oh well ccp wants to broaden eve's appeal to make more money so get used to the current balance for the forseeable future. I guess all these new subs won't really be ready for pew pew until then anyways.
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Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.12.07 07:31:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Target Painter on 07/12/2010 07:31:40 Jesus christ, people still use BSes. Where are you people living?
https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_battle.php?start_time=2010-12-07%2001:55:00&end_time=2010-12-07%2002:40:00&system=N6G-H3
50 some odd BSes **** other BSes, AHACs and SBs.
http://kb.deerhunt.ru/index.php?op=fleet&name=176
A little misleading because it's over three systems and it's literally three seperate fleets. Russians have shield BSes mixed in, to break through reps with alpha, just like every else actively fighting in nullsec has begun switching to.
They aren't seen much in lowsec or small-gangs in general (a handful of Machs not withstanding), but to say that battleship-heavy fleets no longer happen is just wrong.
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Enduros
Desard's Nation Cha0s Theory
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:17:00 -
[47]
Sooo yesterday I saw a good number of shield BS fielded by IT. They sat outside drake range and I think during the whole night none were lost. They shot at NC. armor bs fleet. They shot at -A- drakes. Apparently it works.
Then I have seen a video of INIT. fielding 100 firewall BS against a 300man drake blob. They lost 7 ships. Killed 170 drakes. Apparently fitting a smartbomb works too.
Firewall BS - This one time, at gate camp, I shot a shuttle... |
Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:33:00 -
[48]
I wish I could just remove the skillpoints from any racial BS skill and place it into something like destroyers 5 or any other of the same race
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