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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Fvr Pvpr
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Posted - 2010.12.19 12:09:00 -
[421]
Botting is the only way this game works. GMs in alliances can only donate so much magic ISK.
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Linistitul
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Posted - 2010.12.19 12:21:00 -
[422]
^^ Hey, I too can create fresh alts to post on forums!
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Money Liberation Services Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.19 14:11:00 -
[423]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with.
I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least.
The amount of bots I've seen on my roams through the drone regions, lowsec and highsec speak volumes about your commitment.
Put some meat on the table. How many non-rmt aligned bots have you been banning per region / security level? How many courier macros in magnates? How many market bots? How many courier mission bots in industrials, and how does the QEN look like with them factored out of the statistic? How many drone region macro renter corps have you dropped the hammer on? What's your average time between character creation / discovery / banning? How much isk have you confiscated from the main accounts of known botters? Why did PI hit tq when it was clear that the only way to do PI was with a macro and with functional macros appearing less than 30 minutes after it hit sisi? Why does game design continue to create extremely macro friendly content?
Quo vadis, CCP?
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Erica Lundell
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Posted - 2010.12.19 14:54:00 -
[424]
Edited by: Erica Lundell on 19/12/2010 14:55:06
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with.
I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least.
The amount of bots I've seen on my roams through the drone regions, lowsec and highsec speak volumes about your commitment.
Put some meat on the table. How many non-rmt aligned bots have you been banning per region / security level? How many courier macros in magnates? How many market bots? How many courier mission bots in industrials, and how does the QEN look like with them factored out of the statistic? How many drone region macro renter corps have you dropped the hammer on? What's your average time between character creation / discovery / banning? How much isk have you confiscated from the main accounts of known botters? Why did PI hit tq when it was clear that the only way to do PI was with a macro and with functional macros appearing less than 30 minutes after it hit sisi? Why does game design continue to create extremely macro friendly content?
Quo vadis, CCP?
Why the avoidance of mining being updated to be interactive ? Why the avoidance of missions being updated ? How come the CSM hasn't raised this as an issue since day 1 of it's existance ? How come High Sec keeps being nerfed ? How can we have over 400 titans in the game and have mineral prices at their lowest ? It wasn't long ago that building 1 Titan was a real struggle, now it's a peice of cake.
PI was a joke - and you were told during it's testing on SiSi it was botters heaven.
I was reading only a few days ago how people were looking to bot anomalies in carriers because they were "bored" of the content.
CCP do you even know who your customers are ?
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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2010.12.19 15:06:00 -
[425]
I've been working on a mini UI change proposal involving the wallet. I spent the last day or two photoshopping everything and it all looks pretty sweet.
I'm wondering if it would be wiser to post the idea in this topic, rather than start a new one.
What do you think Akita, or anyone for that matter . _________________________________________
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Reediculouhs
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Posted - 2010.12.19 17:47:00 -
[426]
It's not a mystery folks. CCP wants profit.
Profit comes in the form of active accounts.
Ask yourself if you were making thousands of dollars would you ban those people for playing your "game"?
/nievity off
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Miss President
Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2010.12.19 18:09:00 -
[427]
Originally by: Reediculouhs It's not a mystery folks. CCP wants profit.
Profit comes in the form of active accounts.
Ask yourself if you were making thousands of dollars would you ban those people for playing your "game"?
/nievity off
Active bots accounts bring CCP money - true, there may be plenty of BOTS and Macros that are used to gain in game isk and not for RMT purposes.
RMT takes income from CCP so they fights it, the first one does not. The only turning point I can see if more and more players are getting annoyed by unfair advantage given to people who use BOTs and Macros, in comparison if a tech II fitted ship may take someone 3-4 hour to earn, a BOT doesn't have to waste the time in front of the PC. This may result in big amount of subscription lost for CCP, only then they will act on it.
It seems the turning point for Botting and Macros is just now turning into a plague for EVE, if CCP loses credibility with player base for their inaction with BOTs and Macros it may very well be a start of decline of their subscription base. 54k people online right now means nothing, this can change any day.
Also, CCP's fight on RMT is only aimed to punish players who RMT from isk sellers, they give them warning and duduct the isk - by that they are preserving their right to collect money on GTC market and only worry about their profit. Yet for ISK sellers a banned account is nothing, they can open many new ones and still go on using those army of bots, which btw still brings CCP income - so they are still not losing much.
If CCP is worried about banning players with Bots and MAcros I think 1 warning before BAN should do, to stop normal, non isk sellers to stop using them.
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Miss President
Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2010.12.19 18:22:00 -
[428]
I have at one time started a topic on using similar program to punkbuster for eve.
100% of responses were negative, everyone hates etc, it can be easily defeated, too many problems and horrible experiences with punkbuster.
But i'm sure there should be other ways for CCP to check for bots.
For example, anyone suspected of using bots can have a pop op screen, with random questions, or 1st grade puzzles each time random, that no bot can defeat, display to them. If someone is botting and sitting in front of PC, than this won't work, but for those that are afk with bots it sure will.
There must be other creative ways to deal with bots and macros too.
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Darth McDarth
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Posted - 2010.12.19 18:53:00 -
[429]
Does this remind anyone else of the Red Scare that happened in America? Couple people say that there's Communists, all of a sudden everyone's a Commie. Bot's weren't an issue until evenews ran those articles, all of a sudden they're killing the game and ruining the economy. No one was complaining before the article. Seems like a bunch of hype. Mainly I want it to go away because ITS ****ING SPELLED FED. JUST FIX THE TITLE FFS.
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Keta Fraal
Nul and Booleans
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Posted - 2010.12.19 18:53:00 -
[430]
According to certain prominent "botter" sites(ahem), CCP does issue 3-day and 7-day suspensions along with ISK corrections for breaking the EULA.
There is significant pressure related by botters on their forums relevant to CCP actions,and those who post on those forums are careful to discourage RMTs.
The open discussions on this thread are certainly sending a strong message to anyone out there who might otherwise foolishly ****-off the normal players.
I think my point is that botting is a black market type of activity that will always be around. And while tolerance is not productive to a good game, we need to be careful not to police players for the sake of policing. I don't want to have botting affect my gaming through undue changes in mechanics that target free play. Let's change game mechanics in a progressive manner towards game play. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated. |
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Keta Fraal
Nul and Booleans
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Posted - 2010.12.19 18:57:00 -
[431]
Originally by: Darth McDarth No one was complaining before the article. Seems like a bunch of hype. Mainly I want it to go away because ITS ****ING SPELLED FED. JUST FIX THE TITLE FFS.
LOL. the most prominent thread on the forums has an idiot's typo (or actual misspelling).
I think the mistake in the title ****es me off more than the subject matter. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated. |
Reediculouhs
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Posted - 2010.12.19 19:07:00 -
[432]
Everyone should read that article linked above somewhere and see what a full time botter says about CCP.
He laughs at them!
The bottom line is that CCP can't stop botting completely, they can only catch 1 or 2.
It is the plague of MMOs and there is no way around it...period!
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Vertisce Soritenshi
O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.19 19:12:00 -
[433]
Everytime I see this threads title I get hungry.
Sig.Learning skills vote. |
Miss President
Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2010.12.19 19:17:00 -
[434]
Originally by: Reediculouhs
It is the plague of MMOs and there is no way around it...period!
True on MMOs, but somehow I'd like to think EVE is different, and CCP is able to come out on top more efficiently than others.
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Opertone
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.19 19:35:00 -
[435]
games are ruined by botting
it is the same if someone printed hard currency at home... or if I made fraudulent 10 000 000 USD accounts for myself (because I can)
It will bring the financial system to a collapse, gameplay to deterioration and criminal mafia-like alliances, that make MMO miserable.
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Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.12.19 19:39:00 -
[436]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with.
I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least.
Read but not 100% believed, as you neglect to mention botting/macroing as CCP has been careful to make the distinction that you fight RMT and that violating the EULA is 'bad' but don't clearly say botting/macroing is 'bad' or that botting/macroing without RMT is still bad as CCP has so concisely linked RMT with botting as if they are the exact same thing.
The position we see here on the forums and ingame reasserts the assumption/presumption that CCP doesn't care, being clear that you do and saying so without dancing around the subject as the dev blog does and more importantly the forum responses have in the past, as does your own 'the subject' no mention of botting/macros, along with a REAL devblog on what you are doing about botting/macros and providing some data beyond anti RMT ops and implying that RMT+botting are one in the same because we 'know' you work against RMT and as part of that get botters/macros. We also see what CCP aren't doing and when CCP won't say clearly that botting/macro use isn't permitted in the context of which we speak in this thread or allowed as part of playing the game you show us that you "don't care".
I tend to imagine individual employees of CCP DO care, at least the ones who do the 'real' work but are constrained and limited to what they can and can't do, what projects they undertake by their 'superiors' and other high-ups who make the final decisions. That is MY optimistic view of the situation that things aren't done one way or another because it isn't up to the people who do the work to make the choices on what to add/work-on/fix/etc but I could be wrong, that's MY assumption. Maybe everyone over in CCP land is in unanimous agreement on how things are approached/worked on beyond the surface level that most people have to demonstrate as part of a 'team'/work environment once a direction is chosen, maybe not, I don't know.
If this, dev blog, forum responses, lack of action against what would 'have' to be bots or extremely rich and thickheaded players sending their characters to get blown up over and over hour after hour, day after day, etc, is the 'best' CCP can do to convey the message that CCP is doing something/does care it falls on deaf ears, at least for me.
I took offense that the devblog was the 'best' CCP could muster to address this 'subject' and barely mentions botting, provides no real information, and tempts me to 'lock it for no content' had I the power, but the opportunity to call a spade a spade is too great and it is just another example of how CCP hasn't handled this issue 'correctly' if they cared to do so.
I hope the CSM has more luck in getting information from CCP during the next meeting, and one of several questions I'd like answered from a pure WTF POV is why CCP GM/DEV/etc won't say flat out that using macros or bots to play the game for you when you aren't at your client/without your being present is against the EULA and you will get banned, IF THAT IS THE CASE, because honestly I'm not sure and haven't seen a response from CCP clearing it up. Instead CCP respond to said inquires with re-posting the section of the EULA about macros which is vague and/or talk about RMT and banning players when RMT may have never been brought up or even be relevant.
TLDR: Happy holidays.
--WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.-- |
Miss President
Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2010.12.19 20:06:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Bhattran
Originally by: CCP Sreegs stuff
stuff
I recall seeing somewhere that using a third party software to gains you an unfair advantage over other players is illegal, so BOTs and Macros are illegal, it's just isn't much CCP want to do about, what about try?
You did say something that I agree with, and I also mentioned it in my earlier posts about people working on this issue will not advance until their superiors decide they need to advance.
I think a lot of front faces for CCP have a passion about the game, and try, but again without proper resource dedication from upper management nothing is getting done.
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Keta Fraal
Nul and Booleans
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Posted - 2010.12.19 20:52:00 -
[438]
Originally by: Miss President
Originally by: Bhattran
Originally by: CCP Sreegs stuff
stuff
I recall seeing somewhere that using a third party software to gains you an unfair advantage over other players is illegal, so BOTs and Macros are illegal, it's just isn't much CCP want to do about, what about try?
You did say something that I agree with, and I also mentioned it in my earlier posts about people working on this issue will not advance until their superiors decide they need to advance.
I think a lot of front faces for CCP have a passion about the game, and try, but again without proper resource dedication from upper management nothing is getting done.
EULA-CONDUCT-A-3.
--------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated. |
Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.12.19 21:45:00 -
[439]
Originally by: Miss President
Originally by: Bhattran
Originally by: CCP Sreegs stuff
stuff
I recall seeing somewhere that using a third party software to gains you an unfair advantage over other players is illegal, so BOTs and Macros are illegal, it's just isn't much CCP want to do about, what about try?
You did say something that I agree with, and I also mentioned it in my earlier posts about people working on this issue will not advance until their superiors decide they need to advance.
I think a lot of front faces for CCP have a passion about the game, and try, but again without proper resource dedication from upper management nothing is getting done.
You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. Underline=Macro/bot talk Bold=Client Hack or 'lite client' creation depending on how they are implemented
It can be interpreted as meaning if you A) Hack the client (it specifically mentions modifying it) or B) Are able to acquire 'benefits' at 'an accelerated rate' then it is 'game illegal' but CCP haven't ever expanded on that AFAIK. If you run a macro and don't hack the client in any way you're fine right? and if your macro/bot doesn't gain you anything at an accelerated rate, ie 'it' rats/missions/mines/whatever at the same rate a human would do those things you are 'fine' too because they don't violate 'ordinary game play' right, since it would work exactly as if you were there doing it.
The 'argument' CCP hasn't made is that the use of such a program is 'at an accelerated rate' over 'normal' play or that playing for 23.5 hours a day is 'an accelerated rate' where has CCP what 'an accelerated rate' is?, The answer is they haven't they (CCP employess) post that bit or refer to it as if there were no loopholes or other ways it could be read/interpreted and clearly there are.
--WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.-- |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2010.12.19 22:09:00 -
[440]
Originally by: Erica Lundell
How come the CSM hasn't raised this as an issue since day 1 of it's existance ?
Not a huge coincidence, in my opinion. People get on the CSM by getting large groups of players behind them, and any large organized group of players in this game seems to either passively or actively benefit from botting. I'm pretty pro-CSM generally, but just like with politicians, one always has to remember who they really work for.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.12.19 22:20:00 -
[441]
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 19/12/2010 22:21:31
the 'accelerated rate' has mainly been used to explain why having a G15 keyboard macro for F1-F8 is ok (you still have to sit in front of the screen, you only save yourself a little effort but don't get any tangible in-game benefits) but more complex macros are not.
think of a continuum with G15-style macros on the one end, autohotkey in the middle and full-blown bots (that rely on simulating user input, reading game data from the screen) on the other end.
You cannot restrict usage of the "simple multi-keystroke"-type of macros (and why would you want to?) but you don't want people to use pretty much anything more complex.
So you need some clause that enables you to draw a line between "good" and "bad" macros and that is fuzzy enough to allow for interpretation on a case-by-case basis (fuzziness also protects against players trying to game the EULA thinking they have found a loophole).
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Reediculouhs
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Posted - 2010.12.20 02:19:00 -
[442]
Is there a way possibly to make macro capable keyboards incompatible with EvE?
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alittlebirdy
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Posted - 2010.12.20 04:12:00 -
[443]
They cant make the server stay up DT to DT... you think botting is something they are worried about? lol ya right.
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Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.12.20 04:26:00 -
[444]
Originally by: Erica Lundell
How can we have over 400 titans in the game and have mineral prices at their lowest ? It wasn't long ago that building 1 Titan was a real struggle, now it's a peice of cake.
Insurance nerf. Before that insurance kept mineral prices artifically high.
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Reediculouhs
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Posted - 2010.12.20 07:09:00 -
[445]
So your saying minerals are cheaper because of increased botting and mining bots?
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2010.12.20 07:38:00 -
[446]
I'd like to see CCP's estimated percentage of botting accounts among the active players shown at login ...
My estimate is: more than 50%.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2010.12.20 07:46:00 -
[447]
Originally by: alittlebirdy They cant make the server stay up DT to DT... you think botting is something they are worried about? lol ya right.
A bot probably causes as much, if not more lag than 10 real players... So yes, they are probably worried about it. They probably introduced the scanner delay specifically because of bots scanning all the time and causing lag.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.12.20 07:53:00 -
[448]
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 20/12/2010 07:53:59
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Furthermore, what the OP has stated is simply not true - macroing is illegal, bad and will land you in trouble.
Linkage
yet another epic fail by CCP (I am not talking about moderation, i.e. the decision to lock that thread, just about the policy statement quoted above).
so ... forum users say: "hey running macros without engaging in RMT won't get you banned."
CCP representative shows up and says: macroing is illegal - that's almost certainly wrong, it is against the ToS/EULA (which might or might not stand up to legal scrutiny) but good luck trying to find an explanation how macroing itself is illegal in any civilized jurisdiction.
bad - lol? unspecific blanket statement (crucially missing the "for whom" part - bad for me? bad for the game? bad for CCP's coffers? seems like it is bad because it is bad, great point.) to which the only reaction can be "who cares?"
and will land you in trouble. - yet another extremely unspecific statement. Will land me in "trouble" with CCP? Will land me in trouble because the botting program could steal my login credentials or important RL information? will land me in trouble because mom will get really angry once she sees the electricity bill for running several computers 24/7 in her basement? will land me in trouble because the police might come over for a visit? (that's the context in which I have seen this expression mostly used).
in short - CCP Spitfire does a really great job at confirming the claims he tries(?) to debunk.
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Furthermore, what the OP has stated is simply not true - macroing is illegal, bad and will land you in trouble.
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Furthermore, what the OP has stated is simply not true - macroing is against the ToS/EULA, hurts the in-game economy and will get you banned from this game.
so hard? why???
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.12.20 08:12:00 -
[449]
Originally by: Reediculouhs So your saying minerals are cheaper because of increased botting and mining bots?
they certainly are cheaper in relative and probably in absolute terms.
(mining bots -> cheap minerals, ratting bots -> increased price level)
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
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Posted - 2010.12.20 08:48:00 -
[450]
So would putting all the minerals into grav sites and eliminating belts, and making it so that there are two to four grav sites per system fix the macro mining, or would the macro'ers just find a way to program their macros to scan as well?
Originally by: Samuel Langhorne Clemens I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
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