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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
CRA5HD0WN
Caldari Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.03.11 19:36:00 -
[1681]
Over 9000 reads. |
Caldari Citizen20090217
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Posted - 2011.03.11 19:59:00 -
[1682]
Originally by: riverini
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Originally by: moneykeeper Quote pyramid
You are WRONG, most of the botting is done in empire, we are releasing an article soon on that.
Well if you use capslock, how can I possibly disagree? =P
Will be interesting reading the article. Whilst more botting may be done in empire, I highly doubt the empire bots are pulling the 800mil+ per day per bot that the 0.0 ones are. Mining no chance, mission bots might make a more significant contribution however.
Will await the new article with interest....
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.12 13:17:00 -
[1683]
Yeah I don't believe for one second that mission running bots (which are relatively new) are injecting anywhere near the amount of NEW isk that null ratbots do.
I'm sure there's much more botting in empire but I don't believe it generates as much new isk.
We'll see.
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Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.12 13:50:00 -
[1684]
Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 12/03/2011 13:52:09
Yes... however I bet that if someone would do some real math, the results could easily point to direction where amount of hisec bots would cover their smaller income / bot.
In fact I bet that this is one of the issues where rmt wing / bot operators don't want our attention to turn into.
We got to remember that running bot in hisec is after all, rather safe. How often you see ice/ore miners blown up... Yes hulkageddon is there but if you mine 23/7, losing one ship now and then doesn't change anything on yearly income of one bot.
If you got 5-10 bots mining in some system 23/7 almost every day thru the entire year, there is some serious isk to be made.
It is quite hilarious how some people always point finger only to 0.0, make this a political issue between some alliances or say that it's not that big of a deal... well it is.
I don't know much about bots running combat/courier missions or bots doing market 0.01 pvp, but the ones doing mining have very serious impact on mineral prices.
I can only wonder how big part from this goes to rmt market also.
------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.12 14:01:00 -
[1685]
Yes but all of that is just moving EXISTING isk around. Yes thats where RMT is concentrated.
NEW isk is what bolloxes what passes for an economy - just like IRL.
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Valari Nala Zena
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2011.03.12 14:07:00 -
[1686]
Dunno what the market bots make, but i can imagine they prolly make the most, how do you even detect who is doing that?
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.12 14:25:00 -
[1687]
Originally by: Valari Nala Zena Dunno what the market bots make, but i can imagine they prolly make the most, how do you even detect who is doing that?
Easily. Every time you modify a market order there is a 100 isk (IIRC) transaction charge.
Even if CCP are unable to log every transaction charge it should be easy to see which characters are way above the normal level - and by "way above" I mean trading 23/7/365, not normal traders - who are pretty aggressive IME.
Thats the problem a lot of us have with CCP - nobody is saying "you must eradicate 100% of bots" but its hard to understand how some bots (even if they're scamspam bots - Jita etc) still exist after all these years. Its not rocket science.
The thing to remember is that while trade bots make their owners a shedload of isk they do NOT generate new isk. That comes from missions and npc bounties.
Killing the bots which generate new isk should be CCPs #1 priority as it both screws up the economy and is essentially a free source of RL money for RMT companies. Then move onto the rest.
We'll see but I'm not holding my breath.
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Eternum Praetorian
True Creation
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Posted - 2011.03.12 15:52:00 -
[1688]
Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard?
Couldn't that easily be logged by the client?
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.12 16:07:00 -
[1689]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard?
Couldn't that easily be logged by the client?
if you add a little random delay then it's hard to detect any patterns, or you would atleast get a very high amount of false positives.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.12 19:01:00 -
[1690]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard?
Couldn't that easily be logged by the client?
if you add a little random delay then it's hard to detect any patterns, or you would atleast get a very high amount of false positives.
BS.
In terms of market bots there is a clear trail of transaction charges.
In terms of ratting bots there is a clear trail of bounties.
You can't disguise that over the course of weeks. CCP may not have the resources to track ALL the indicators but they are going to have to up their game very soon - either that or Eve ends up with an even worse reputation for "exploiters".
You CAN exploit in Eve.
What you cannot do is hide the tracks of bots.
If you can hide them reliably then Eve is ****ed - and so is anything else CCP does for it'll be a case of "oh that's the company which runs Eve, don't go near them".
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.12 19:33:00 -
[1691]
Originally by: Othran
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard?
Couldn't that easily be logged by the client?
if you add a little random delay then it's hard to detect any patterns, or you would atleast get a very high amount of false positives.
In terms of market bots there is a clear trail of transaction charges.
In terms of ratting bots there is a clear trail of bounties.
The argument was that bots mimic human behaviour and if they loop the same input sequence over and over, all CCP needs to do is find one bot monitor it's behaviour and then would be able to detect all bots by looking for the same input sequence.
It's has nothing to do with transaction trails...
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.12 19:45:00 -
[1692]
Originally by: dexington It's has nothing to do with transaction trails...
Yeah whatever Mr Alt #2.
Keep spinning. Nobody believes the BS anymore...
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Freelanc3r
H A V O C Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.03.12 22:09:00 -
[1693]
Hi riverini
Look how dumb you are considering the NC are the biggest RMT buyers on iskbank, perhaps you should start with your own alliance then your coalition first.
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.03.13 00:54:00 -
[1694]
I may have seen a bot today. Our fleet started setting up in a belt and someone warped into the middle and started mining. A bump and a question in local got no response. I started mining roids out from under him, using scanner to time the cycles so I get all the ore. Eventually he got enough himself and warped off. I expected that would be the last of him, if he was a player.
But back he came, to the same spot. Eventually we mined out all the rids in his range and he left for good.
Based on behavior it was either a very clueless player or a bot. It was not just a simple "timer" bot, he warped out right away when all roids in range were gone, so if a bot, it was screen scraping or reading client memory.
Got him on the watchlist....
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Paul Mustaka Hekard
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Posted - 2011.03.13 01:50:00 -
[1695]
You can go further than that. Please file at Report Bots. While it may seem futile, some folks like blowing them up ;)
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Christos Hendez
Warhamsters Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.03.13 03:30:00 -
[1696]
rabble rabble rabble RMT rabble rabble rabble ----- Russian | English | French
AAA Diplomat WAR.H |
Selinate
Amarr Red Water Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.13 05:34:00 -
[1697]
Oh thank god almighty, he finally changed "feed" to "fed".
Thank you, riverini.
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Kengutsi Akira
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Posted - 2011.03.13 08:52:00 -
[1698]
I see we finally scared off the CCP guy... guess I as right when I guessed he's ignore the issue like everyone else.
Welcome to the company dude, now that you know how it works, looks like yer gonna fit right in. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
CRA5HD0WN
Caldari Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.03.13 09:24:00 -
[1699]
this can be solved effectively.
Sansha incursion hot drop the bot miners.
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Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.13 09:51:00 -
[1700]
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira I see we finally scared off the CCP guy... guess I as right when I guessed he's ignore the issue like everyone else.
Welcome to the company dude, now that you know how it works, looks like yer gonna fit right in.
Well I bet they got little better things to do than sit on the forums every day and reply to everything we post here.
...like doing something to fix the actual problem that is.
I can't see how he is ignoring the issue by promising more info to be released during fanfest.
...but perhaps you disagree.
------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
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Aquila Draco
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Posted - 2011.03.13 10:02:00 -
[1701]
Just to quote here 1st post from [evenews24.com] iskbank.com exposed (Updated fri, 11. mar) so that we have here all important data.
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 12/03/2011 14:06:14
Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com exposed http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/09/in-isk-we-trust-iskbank-com-exposed-thousand-of-customers-outed/
Evenews24.com - Client list http://www.evenews24.com/2010/03/09/iskbank-com-client-list/
Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com/ru Client List: Revised Edition http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/11/iskbank-com-client-list-revised-edition/
Evenews24.com - official revised Iskbank customer list @ googledocs https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atu22IqpENk5dFMzMzAwWTdNX1lXelVpUUFlOWt0U1E&hl=en&authkey=CNK1-84L
Evenews24.com article - Customers speak out http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/10/iskbank-com-customers-speak-out/
GM Grimmi's comment about the issue http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1479579&page=5#132
Related:
CCP Sreegs posts about rmt, botting and upcoming announcements in fanfest. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1426740/author/CCP%20Sreegs
TenTonHammer article - The Daily Grind: Have you ever bought gold? http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/12/the-daily-grind-have-you-ever-bought-gold/
Elsewhere:
Massively article - EVE ISK buyers outed in database leak http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/10/eve-isk-buyers-outed-in-database-leak/#
Slashdot article - In Isk We Trust: the EVE Online IskBank Exposed http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/10/1712207/In-Isk-We-Trust-the-EVE-Online-IskBank-Exposed
mmorpg.com article - EVE Online News - Iskbank.com Exposed http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/19890/Iskbankcom-Exposed
TenTonHammer article - EVENews24 Exposes Iskbank Scandal, Thousands of Customers Outed http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/96325
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Illwill Bill
Reign of Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.03.13 10:50:00 -
[1702]
On a side note, there seems to be some discussion about bans on this other forum. Apparently, there is some relation to the usage of snakes. If true, then GJ CCP!
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2011.03.13 12:47:00 -
[1703]
Originally by: Aquila Draco
Massively article - EVE ISK buyers outed in database leak http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/10/eve-isk-buyers-outed-in-database-leak/#
Slashdot article - In Isk We Trust: the EVE Online IskBank Exposed http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/10/1712207/In-Isk-We-Trust-the-EVE-Online-IskBank-Exposed
mmorpg.com article - EVE Online News - Iskbank.com Exposed http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/19890/Iskbankcom-Exposed
TenTonHammer article - EVENews24 Exposes Iskbank Scandal, Thousands of Customers Outed http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/96325
Heh 4 major games sites reporting on RMT, Botting and EvE.
Can't be good for CCP's reputation.
--------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.13 13:10:00 -
[1704]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Heh 4 major games sites reporting on RMT, Botting and EvE.
Can't be good for CCP's reputation.
It gives them a bad reputation compared to what games?, most/all of the major mmo's have bot/RMT problems. Blizzzard spend most of the last expansion trying to fight hackers stealing gold from players and guilds, i've not played aion online but from what i've heard they also have huge problems with bots.
It did'nt get publicity because it's a unique problem that only exists in eve, the incident got publicity because it's probably the first time a RMT site was hacked and the customer database leaked on the internet.
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Ronan Astrum
Caldari CRIMMSEN
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Posted - 2011.03.13 15:19:00 -
[1705]
Originally by: Selinate Oh thank god almighty, he finally changed "feed" to "fed".
Thank you, riverini.
i thought the exact same thing
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Jojo Jackson
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Posted - 2011.03.13 17:50:00 -
[1706]
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Originally by: riverini
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Originally by: moneykeeper Quote pyramid
You are WRONG, most of the botting is done in empire, we are releasing an article soon on that.
Well if you use capslock, how can I possibly disagree? =P
Will be interesting reading the article. Whilst more botting may be done in empire, I highly doubt the empire bots are pulling the 800mil+ per day per bot that the 0.0 ones are. Mining no chance, mission bots might make a more significant contribution however.
Will await the new article with interest....
The easiest bot might be the trade bot. Sit in Jita and do nothing then check sell/buy orders of a croup of item. They have buy/sell limits and adjust the price by 0.01 ISK Cent every 4 minutes (CCP time limit).
Most people will NEVER notice this bots as they never undock. And I bet there are a minimum of 100 just in Jita not counting all the other trade hubs.
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.03.13 18:02:00 -
[1707]
I have an alt in Jita and traded against those. Its quite annoying. But I notice that the ones that update every 5 minutes are few and far between. I think most trading bot owners quickly learn to have it update once every few hours, better simulating a player, to make it much harder to detect.
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Janos Saal
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Posted - 2011.03.13 18:43:00 -
[1708]
I saw some botters by the asteroid belt recently. I steered clear of them! Disgusting creatures! I hope to never see another!
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2011.03.14 02:51:00 -
[1709]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Heh 4 major games sites reporting on RMT, Botting and EvE.
Can't be good for CCP's reputation.
It gives them a bad reputation compared to what games?, most/all of the major mmo's have bot/RMT problems. Blizzzard spend most of the last expansion trying to fight hackers stealing gold from players and guilds, i've not played aion online but from what i've heard they also have huge problems with bots.
It did'nt get publicity because it's a unique problem that only exists in eve, the incident got publicity because it's probably the first time a RMT site was hacked and the customer database leaked on the internet.
It gives them a bad reputation because when people read those articles, they get linked to other articles, or are made aware of, the apathy and neglect that CCP has towards RMT and botters.
CCP is rather unique in that they have painted themselves into a corner, where legal isk for cash, legal character transfers and illegal RMT and botting are all working together to prop up CCP.
Where other games companies are actively working against RMT and botters, CCP is actively working with RMT and botters, even if its not an intentional thing, it is what it is.
And lastly, any press is bad press, its highly likely that a person who is not a cheat, reading the article on EvE on those 4 sites, will decide against signing up, simply because they will have the impression that the game will be too hard without forking out rl cash or because they dislike cheating in games.
So once again, yes, Bad Press for CCP.
--------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.14 04:49:00 -
[1710]
Edited by: dexington on 14/03/2011 04:51:43 I think you are mostly expressing you personal opinion on RMT and how CCP is handling that problem, which right or wrong is not supported by the information in the news stories. The articles are all about the leaking of the iskbank customer database, and have really nothing to do with the RMT/bot problem of eve or the size of the problem.
Originally by: Infinity Ziona It gives them a bad reputation because when people read those articles, they get linked to other articles, or are made aware of, the apathy and neglect that CCP has towards RMT and botters.
Not one of the articles you refer to comments on what CCP does or does not do to stop RMT, or comment on the size of the problem within the eve universe. One article has the comment "CCP's response was the predictable "no comment" style approach, which is standard for most companies as they work to deal with RMT issues.", which make it seem like CCP is doing the same as every other company.
Originally by: Infinity Ziona CCP is rather unique in that they have painted themselves into a corner, where legal isk for cash, legal character transfers and illegal RMT and botting are all working together to prop up CCP.
Where other games companies are actively working against RMT and botters, CCP is actively working with RMT and botters, even if its not an intentional thing, it is what it is.
I can't seem to find any support for this is any of the articles, i can be wrong be i don't recall seeing any comments on legal sale of isk or transfer of characters. Feel free to prove me wrong and point out where it's said that CCP is working with botters and RMT sites.
Originally by: Infinity Ziona And lastly, any press is bad press, its highly likely that a person who is not a cheat, reading the article on EvE on those 4 sites, will decide against signing up, simply because they will have the impression that the game will be too hard without forking out rl cash or because they dislike cheating in games.
So once again, yes, Bad Press for CCP.
It's also said "There is no such thing as bad publicity". I think it's safe to assume that anyone reading the articles already playing an mmo, is playing one with just as many botters, hackers and cheaters. If someone is looking to try eve it's presumptious to assume they are going to change their mind because because a news story informs about RMT. Anyways this is just guessing, no of us know how or even if this is going to affect CCP/EVE.
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