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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.06 22:49:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 06/12/2010 22:50:16
"Working as intended" in this case just means "Yeah we didn't think of that at the time".
Its a ****ty mechanic that would have you arrested for fraud in RL. Unfortunately CCP is too busy making 0.0 safer to fix their logic bugs.
Sig
---
 Quote:
Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.
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Erythorbic Benzoate
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Posted - 2010.12.06 23:42:00 -
[62]
Learn to EVE, honestly. This is a simple scam and a real game mechanic. Don't be mad because you didn't know better, learn so you don't do it again. And instead of making a whining post about "New Low For CCP" as if they made some horrible error, make a scam known to people in other ways so they don't make your mistake.
TL;DR, scams work because people are impatient. Don't be impatient.
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.12.06 23:47:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Its a ****ty mechanic that would have you arrested for fraud in RL.
IRL you can react to a margin call by retracting your orders/closing the position.
Not really different from Margin Trading in EVE...
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Taedrin
Gallente
The Green Cross
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.12.07 00:04:00 -
[64]
And THIS, boys and girls, is why we set up our market filters properly. Not only to filter out the really bad deals, but also the "too good to be true" deals. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.07 00:48:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Its a ****ty mechanic that would have you arrested for fraud in RL.
Yes. Not paying for items not provided and vice versa sure is fraudulentà wait what?
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
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Posted - 2010.12.07 05:28:00 -
[66]
There's a difference between advocating for scamming (or just not really caring much about it one way or another) and defending an exploit. Creating a fake buy order would only be "working as intended" in the mind of a truly insane player. If you create a buy order, you follow up on that buy order or cancel it. If you don't cancel it, it's valid. I'm not even sure how to replicate what this scammer did, but obviously it's not working as intended.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.12.07 07:08:00 -
[67]
Wow, Drakarin, way to be completely ignorant and wrong about everything you just posted.
The too good to be true scam is a classic. Hey I'll buy magic beans for $100 and I'll sell you magic bean seeds for $20, they take one hour to grow.
One hour later
Sorry I am not in the market for magic beans anymore because I ran out of money but I am really into magic watermelons now.
You got to be kidding me. Both people are trying to pull one over on the other, aka scam each other. Call a spade a spade, there is no intention of a fair trade of items for market value by either person. Since you are both bad scammers we cannot apply any rules or laws to you since you both are in the wrong.
So we just lol at you. L O L. It's what fuels my ships nowadays (gas and plex are pretty expensive these days)
-
It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant |
Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.07 07:26:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Drakarin
Some words showing he has no idea how margin trading works.
Well, you really did my job for me. Uh, thanks I guess.
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LindaSpartan 058
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Posted - 2010.12.07 07:48:00 -
[69]
TO those of you with valid points and well thought out arguments who read the post and contributed something useful, weather for or against my position. I thank you. I learned exactly how the scam works, which is something I did not understand before. I know now there is NO way to fill those orders even if you do have the minimum volume. I now realize it could have been prevented had I researched long enough into scamming to find out there was an exploit, and it is most definitely an exploit, that allows you to put up orders with no intention of them ever being able to be filled.
For you forum trolls who don't bother to read the entire post and say the first thing that comes into your brain as an attempt at insulting me, keep doing what your doing as you are obviously good at nothing else in life which is why you constantly refresh the forum page looking for someone to annoy/insult with the useless garbage that flows from your brain through your keyboard and now has ended up cluttering my forum thread. I realize its probably hard to spend every single night alone with your computer. So if trying to insult me helps you cope with your lonely, useless, sad excuse for a life, I guess I don't blame you for that.
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Conrad Lionhart
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.07 08:15:00 -
[70]
OP you should use an online market site.
http://eve-central.com/
It may help minimize the chances of you getting scammed.
My Blog: http://www.brugamers.com/index.php?blog=43 |
Billy Kidd
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:49:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Conrad Lionhart
OP you should use an online market site.
http://eve-central.com/
It may help minimize the chances of you getting scammed.
Sorry, that doesn't help against this kind of scam, as that site doesn't show whether or not the person behind the buy order has enough money to fulfill the order.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:55:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Drakarin
an exploit
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
and it is most definitely an exploit
I'm sorry, that's not your call.
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I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:40:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Tippia on 07/12/2010 15:42:22
Originally by: Drakarin
There is no way to detect this scam.
Riiiightà except for, you know, plenty of people being able to detect it ù the OP among themà
It's ridiculously obvious if you know what you're looking at.
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
I know now there is NO way to fill those orders even if you do have the minimum volume.
Yes there is ù just not at the price the scammer seems to offer (not that there would be any point to filling them, since that doesn't actually hurt the scammer).
Quote:
it is most definitely an exploit, that allows you to put up orders with no intention of them ever being able to be filled
How is that an exploit? It's how the mechanic is designed, and it's designed that way to protect both you, the buyer, and the seller from making a trade that will cause problems for either of you. Remember, the trick with this scam isn't with the buy order, but with the sell order that lets the scammer cash in.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
jerichot
Cutish Brunts
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:59:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
CCP's response
Umad OP?
What was that ? teenagers/college boys wannabe rappers music ?
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Tattoo Stan
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:47:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Herping yourDerp
inb4
I BOUGHT A CHEAP FREIGHTOR THEN WHEN I SET DESTINATION IT WAS IN LOWSEC I WENT TO GET IT AND DIED WTFSCAMHAX/QQRAGEQUIT
Cataclysms out man, what yo still doin ere ?
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Doddy
Burning Vendetta
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:51:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Doddy on 07/12/2010 16:52:16
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
I cannot stress enough that I did not "fall" for the intended scam.
Yes you did, you just thought you were smarter than the scammer when you weren't. This has been a valid and well known scam for a long time. You say there is no way to know the order is fake - but you knew it was clearly a scam and carried on anyway. If you were so sure it was a scam you could easily have come on the forum and looked where you would have found out all about the margin trading scam as well.
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Billy Kidd
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:55:00 -
[77]
Originally by: jerichot
Originally by: Vaal Erit
CCP's response
Umad OP?
What was that ? teenagers/college boys wannabe rappers music ?
Actually, those are CCP developers playing music for you. And those girls in the Shanghai office sure look cute...
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Doddy
Burning Vendetta
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:55:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 06/12/2010 22:50:16
"Working as intended" in this case just means "Yeah we didn't think of that at the time".
Its a ****ty mechanic that would have you arrested for fraud in RL. Unfortunately CCP is too busy making 0.0 safer to fix their logic bugs.
No it wouldn't, you can refuse to buy something any time you like in rl, regardless of whether someone has bought stuff in order to sell to you. If there was a contract somewhere it would be different, but there isn't. No-one made the op buy/build the stuff.
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Billy Kidd
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:10:00 -
[79]
If CCP intended margin trading to be used in this way, then what's weird is that CCP hasn't implemented margin-selling to go along with margin-buying.
You can promise to buy something without putting money down, but you can't promise to sell something without having the items on hand. Since people are arguing that margin-buying "protects" buyers and sellers by ensuring that the buyer and the seller have all terms of the trade before allowing the trade to complete, then why can't the same reasoning be used to justify an equivalent on the sales side of the market?
IE. I want to sell 5 ships for 50m each, but I don't have the last two just yet. Give me the money for the last two now, and I'll get the ships to you ASAP.
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Adrian Steel
Caldari
Wormhole Engineers
Greater Realms
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Posted - 2011.02.01 14:54:00 -
[80]
Those who are heckling the OP for not knowing the scam are missing the boat in a big way. Those people who lift offers in order to hit a bid with a large minimum order limit without realizing the size of the minimum order have failed themselves by being inattentive and deserve to reap the incompetency that they have sown. But anyone who consciously and explicitly decides to hit the margin order bid gets boned on poorly conceived game mechanics because the order never transacts.
No established market in the real world has "fake" orders which do not transact. Market participants can "push" on bids and offers by offering quantities they do not intend to purchase or sell in order to manipulate the market (which is against the rules on most exchanges, but happens on a daily basis) but they are left with the consequences if and when a counter-party transacts with their order.
In a real world market, all bids and offers can be transacted against. If the buyer or seller doesn't have the funds to satisfy their bid or offer's counter-party because they placed the order on margin, they owe money to their broker/order clearing firm (escrow). It is not the counter-party that is left with the short end of the stick, but the person who placed an order without having the funds required to fill it.
The problem with current game mechanics is that the market does not provide the transparency that real-world markets enforce: you cannot tell if that outrageous bid's issuer is insolvent or not until you hold the goods required to actively transact against it. A real world market does not care about solvency; all orders can transact. Instead, 3rd party clearing firms deal with solvency issues before and after market transactions occur.
The fake margin bid isn't much of a scam as it is a manipulation of poor game mechanics. A good scam requires suspension of disbelief. The real scam here occurs when the player suspends their disbelief that CCP's conceptualization of a market is actually a neutral, equitable and transparent medium for exchange. If indeed it is "working as intended," the developers are certainly having a good laugh at the expense of those who aren't familiar with their obscure mechanics.
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Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:06:00 -
[81]
Linda,
You weren't scammed out of anything. You stated you built some items to fill a sell order. You still have those items. The intrinsic value of those items did not change simply because a buy order evaporated. If those items aren't actually worth 45m isk each, then that should've been your first clue...
If somethings sounds too good to be true, it likely is. If you take a gamble to try to make quick cash, well, the risk was your choice. In the case of someone else, not you, that might've bought the items for 40m isk ( I'm assuming they're not worth anywhere near that ) to sell for 45m isk, then that person would've been scammed. But, it's not an exploit still, because even that person could've done his homework, found out the item wasn't worth that, and purchased it somewhere else for cheaper instead of looking for quick easy cash. In fact, looking for quick easy cash is the reason why most people get scammed in the first place. Greed overwhelms, and loss of isk is the result 
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Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:12:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Adrian Steel
Those who are heckling the OP for not knowing the scam are missing the boat in a big way. Those people who lift offers in order to hit a bid with a large minimum order limit without realizing the size of the minimum order have failed themselves by being inattentive and deserve to reap the incompetency that they have sown. But anyone who consciously and explicitly decides to hit the margin order bid gets boned on poorly conceived game mechanics because the order never transacts.
No established market in the real world has "fake" orders which do not transact. Market participants can "push" on bids and offers by offering quantities they do not intend to purchase or sell in order to manipulate the market (which is against the rules on most exchanges, but happens on a daily basis) but they are left with the consequences if and when a counter-party transacts with their order.
In a real world market, all bids and offers can be transacted against. If the buyer or seller doesn't have the funds to satisfy their bid or offer's counter-party because they placed the order on margin, they owe money to their broker/order clearing firm (escrow). It is not the counter-party that is left with the short end of the stick, but the person who placed an order without having the funds required to fill it.
The problem with current game mechanics is that the market does not provide the transparency that real-world markets enforce: you cannot tell if that outrageous bid's issuer is insolvent or not until you hold the goods required to actively transact against it. A real world market does not care about solvency; all orders can transact. Instead, 3rd party clearing firms deal with solvency issues before and after market transactions occur.
The fake margin bid isn't much of a scam as it is a manipulation of poor game mechanics. A good scam requires suspension of disbelief. The real scam here occurs when the player suspends their disbelief that CCP's conceptualization of a market is actually a neutral, equitable and transparent medium for exchange. If indeed it is "working as intended," the developers are certainly having a good laugh at the expense of those who aren't familiar with their obscure mechanics.
Frankly, A good scam is simply one that works, it doesn't really matter to the scammer whether they are manipulating someones emotions through text-chat or if they're manipulating a market mechanism that strays from what you think it should be.
In Eve, if you trust the wrong person, or trust blindly in the system, you lose isk. That's a good thing. It's the best thing about eve. I'd say, in fact, it defines eve. This hasn't really changed since 2003, and I'm so very glad that it has not.
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Adrian Steel
Caldari
Wormhole Engineers
Greater Realms
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:22:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Ris Dnalor
Linda,
You weren't scammed out of anything. You stated you built some items to fill a sell order. You still have those items. The intrinsic value of those items did not change simply because a buy order evaporated. If those items aren't actually worth 45m isk each, then that should've been your first clue...
If somethings sounds too good to be true, it likely is. If you take a gamble to try to make quick cash, well, the risk was your choice. In the case of someone else, not you, that might've bought the items for 40m isk ( I'm assuming they're not worth anywhere near that ) to sell for 45m isk, then that person would've been scammed. But, it's not an exploit still, because even that person could've done his homework, found out the item wasn't worth that, and purchased it somewhere else for cheaper instead of looking for quick easy cash. In fact, looking for quick easy cash is the reason why most people get scammed in the first place. Greed overwhelms, and loss of isk is the result
Your argument fails on the most fundamental of intellectual levels.
In order to have a neutral gaming/market environment, risk is a requirement for BOTH parties of a player-versus-player encounter. In this case, there is no risk for the issuer of the fake bid because his only downside is the large broker fee which is known beforehand. Risk is an element of unknown future circumstances. The fake bid issuer already knows all possible variables which may affect the future while the counter-party does not. To put it in terms which you can understand - Sesame Street would call this u-n-f-a-i-r.
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:48:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Adrian Steel
No established market in the real world has "fake" orders which do not transact.
I hear there's an upstart exchange on the east coast doing things differently. NYSE if I remember it correctly.
______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:53:00 -
[85]
DEAR GOD! I didn't know George Romero played EVE...only he could have brought this thread back from the dead! 
X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X ..."...brains, whatever."
[21EL] Commander Tac-Ops / [21EL] I.S.C. |
stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:53:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Adrian Steel
In this case, there is no risk for the issuer of the fake bid because his only downside is the large broker fee which is known beforehand.
^^ This. ^^
The bogus market order auto-cancels without any intervention necessary by the scammer. The only risk is the potential loss of the broker fees.
The biggest problem with scams in Eve is that there's no good way to enforce consequences. No lawsuits, no jail time, no garnishing of wages, etc., which combined with alts, makes scamming a 'good' idea.
<Idea>
We have security status. Why not have an equivalent market security status or credit rating? If a character constantly puts up margin orders that fail, then their rating takes a hit. The rating would appear next to the order.
The effectiveness of the margin trading skill is tied to the player's market rating. The worse it is, the greater the amount necessary to escrow.
Could even potentially tie a character's credit rating to an eventual loan/credit system.
</Idea>
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Adrian Steel
Caldari
Wormhole Engineers
Greater Realms
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Posted - 2011.02.01 16:09:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Luminos
Originally by: Adrian Steel
No established market in the real world has "fake" orders which do not transact.
I hear there's an upstart exchange on the east coast doing things differently. NYSE if I remember it correctly.
Flash crash scams notwithstanding... ^^
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.02.01 16:11:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Tippia on 01/02/2011 16:13:40
Originally by: Adrian Steel
In order to have a neutral gaming/market environment, risk is a requirement for BOTH parties of a player-versus-player encounter. In this case, there is no risk for the issuer of the fake bid because his only downside is the large broker fee which is known beforehand.
But that's just it: there is no risk in the transaction for the seller either ù he still has the goods and hasn't lost anything. The way margin trading works means that both parties are equally protected: the buyer does not lose money he doesn't have; the seller doesn't lose items without getting paid.
You could argue that there is some risk in the general case: the actual scam all done at the other end, where the issuer sells the mark the item in the first place at a vastly inflated price, which only works because the mark fails to spot that he's buying something that he won't be able to recoup the cost of should his speculation fail. But in the OP's case there wasn't even this little risk (or, rather, failure of risk analysis) because he produced the items himself and thus didn't lose a dime. He still has the items and he didn't obtain them at a higher-than-market-value price that requires him to put them back into the market at a loss.
àalso: holy necro, batman. 
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.01 16:12:00 -
[89]
Originally by: JitPC
How could you have been more careful?
You don't "beat" scams by being careful. You avoid the scam entirely. That's how you could have been more careful. You thought you could beat the scammer, and you failed. You knowingly took a risk, and failed. Your fault 100%.
Exactly. Never play a player. And certain don't go whine about it when he bested you, after all.
--
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Muna Kea
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Posted - 2011.02.01 16:17:00 -
[90]
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
Edited by: LindaSpartan 058 on 06/12/2010 10:00:50
Im sure a lot of you know about the market scam where someone finds some rare item, puts up a sell order 10 or so items say 40 mil a peice. Then they put up a buy order a few jumps away for 20 ish items at 45 mil a peice. So being a trader, one thinks they can just move it and make a quick buck. Well of course the minimum volume for the buy order was more than are for sale in the Market anywhere. Recognizing this, I built enought items to fill the order along with the items already for sale on the market. I check every couple seconds to make sure the buy order is still up. When i finally go to sell the items. It says the order is no longer valid. I'm out hundreds of millions of isk. What does CCP have to say?
I lost 700M on that one as well. I went into it with the full knowledge that it was a scam. What I didn't realize was that it was a bot. And no matter how fast a human can click 'sell', a bot can click 'cancel order' faster.
Lesson learned.
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