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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2010.12.07 01:40:00 -
[1]
Edited by: DHB WildCat on 07/12/2010 01:44:05 It has been a sad fact these last few months that a Battleship is practicly laughed at these days. Why? What has happened to them? Well there are several reasons for this both in small gangs / solo, and in large fleets.
Small Gang / SOLO
As a guy who once solo'ed entirely in Battleships, I can safely say that it is now virtually impossible to do so.
Problem - ECM is still the most overpowered module in eve. The caladri line has a strong ship in virtually every class including frigate that will shut down any ship including the battleship. Solution - Make ecm modules jam for 10 seconds while maintaining the 20 second timer. You can still perma jam but will have to stagger and use more pilot skill. Thus gives the ship a 10 second window to try to defend itself before being jammed again.
Problem - Tracking Issues... Lets face it. A battleship has a VERY hard time tracking ships that are even webbed and scrammed! You litterally cannot hit them. Not to mention the torp range on caldari is too short but does minimal damage since it is sig radius based. And yes cruise missile dps sux! Solution - Boost tracking and missile stats to better have a chance to hit a tackled target. Yes they shouldnt be able to hit a non tackled target, but a webbed / scrammed / painted hac should die fast to a battleship.
Fleets
Problem - Shield tanking > Armor tanking. However most ships period armor tank. Thus making a shield tanked "drake" fleet with scimis more efeective than armor fleets. Solution - Make armor RR rep at the beginning of the cycle like shield ones. No reason they have to be different. At the same time lets nerf the logi ships a little bit. Two logis should not be able to tank a ship from 10 people.
Problem - Probing. Yes Battleships are the longest hitting sub cap ships in the game. However a prober can literally probe down a Battleship and be on top of it before it can get out of warp and turn around to warp out. Thus bringing the rest of the fleet ontop of the snipers. Solution - Nerf the living crap out of probing. It is very overpowered. Make the time it takes to scan longer. Make it so that people have to work to get a position on snipers and thus a sniping BS fleet would be viable again.
Problem - Capital ships.... seriously this is completely out of control! I am in a corp of 20 people. We all have Mom's and some of us even have titans. It is too easy to build these things and they are too cheap for their abilities. Solution - Make them more expensive! Fighters / Fighter bombers should not be able to hit sub caps period! A mom should not be a solo pwn mobile like it is! DD - Make sig based... again too many titans are dropped on lone Battleship becasue it insta pops them and is so cheap to fire the device that it isnt even a factor concidered in firing the divice.
There are many reasons to the elimination of the Battleship from the game. These are a few of the more prevalent problems I can think of. Please lend your support in bringing these ships back to pvp!
WildCat
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Ranvaldy
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.07 01:45:00 -
[2]
No
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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2010.12.07 01:47:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ranvaldy No
please elaborate Im curious and welcome other ideas.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.07 01:50:00 -
[4]
While part of me misses the days of 90% webs allowing battleships to solo...I can't say that it was a bad direction for the game. I like the variety of ship classes floating around. Cruisers and frigates being able to operate in web range of a battleship makes the game more fun.
Totally agree on the cap parts.
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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2010.12.07 01:53:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Templar Dane While part of me misses the days of 90% webs allowing battleships to solo...I can't say that it was a bad direction for the game. I like the variety of ship classes floating around. Cruisers and frigates being able to operate in web range of a battleship makes the game more fun.
Totally agree on the cap parts.
True the web nerf was and still is very good. I only think that if a ship is webbed / and scrammed a BS should be able to hit it. Not for full damage mind you, but it shouldnt miss 8)
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Daneel Trevize
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2010.12.07 01:55:00 -
[6]
Agree on mixing up the ecm, the nerfing logis a bit, and stopping all this complaining about supercaps. Don't agree that BS should be able to pwn smaller stuff, else you're recreating the SC vs BS in BS vs cruisers. No experience in probing fleets with what sounds like probes ready ahead of time and the enemy knows it. |
Dabljuh
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Posted - 2010.12.07 01:57:00 -
[7]
Here's a suggestion: There should be battleship-sized weapons modules designed to kill cruisers and frigates efficiently. Like the Assault Launcher, a cruiser sized module that is designed to kill anti-frigate missiles.
Precision Cruises don't cut it, there's no BS turrets to that end, and drones are highly situational / unreliable.
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Greymoon Avatar
Caldari Reasonable People True Reign
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:02:00 -
[8]
The Battleship is fine as it is. The easy solution to those troublesome ECM boats out there is to mount 1-2 Sensor Backup Arrays of a type that is different from your ships racial type. ECM jockeys instinctively jam you based on the racial type your flying, they will try to jam you out, be unsuccessful, and then start having to guess what will work after the shock, surprise, and disbelief wears off. This buys you precious seconds to primary him.
Tactics change over time, people find ways to counter what currently works, and they change again. The Battleship is much more flexible than anything smaller. More slots means more options. ...
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Greymoon Avatar
Caldari Reasonable People True Reign
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dabljuh Here's a suggestion: There should be battleship-sized weapons modules designed to kill cruisers and frigates efficiently. Like the Assault Launcher, a cruiser sized module that is designed to kill anti-frigate missiles.
Precision Cruises don't cut it, there's no BS turrets to that end, and drones are highly situational / unreliable.
How about a Target Painter? ...
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Zantris
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:10:00 -
[10]
The weeding out of the BS in small gangs is for the better. It promotes a much better ship diversity. If you want to track smaller ships, fit smaller weapons.
Battleships should be a major part of fleet Ops, and the effectiveness and overabundance of capitals are the major reason they are having problems. I certainly don't think buffing armor tanking in fleets is a responsible decision, considering its only one ship that actually warrants shield tanking fleets... otherwise armor tanking is far preferred.
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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:10:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Greymoon Avatar The Battleship is fine as it is. The easy solution to those troublesome ECM boats out there is to mount 1-2 Sensor Backup Arrays of a type that is different from your ships racial type. ECM jockeys instinctively jam you based on the racial type your flying, they will try to jam you out, be unsuccessful, and then start having to guess what will work after the shock, surprise, and disbelief wears off. This buys you precious seconds to primary him.
Tactics change over time, people find ways to counter what currently works, and they change again. The Battleship is much more flexible than anything smaller. More slots means more options.
So you are suggesting that pilots put a ... for example... magnomtric backup array on a gravemetric ship!?
Okay.... thanks for the input. Not sure why you want to do that but interesting theory.
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Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:10:00 -
[12]
Yet another proud falcon alt user manages to sneak in an ECM whine.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Jan'z Kolna
Ore Mongers BAT PHONE
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Greymoon Avatar The Battleship is fine as it is. The easy solution to those troublesome ECM boats out there is to mount 1-2 Sensor Backup Arrays of a type that is different from your ships racial type. ECM jockeys instinctively jam you based on the racial type your flying, they will try to jam you out, be unsuccessful, and then start having to guess what will work after the shock, surprise, and disbelief wears off. This buys you precious seconds to primary him.
Tactics change over time, people find ways to counter what currently works, and they change again. The Battleship is much more flexible than anything smaller. More slots means more options.
ships have racial sensors, sensor strength is 0 ( zero, nil , zilch) for sensors other than racial
fitting diff. eccm than racial changes nothing , because any percentage of 0 is still zero
CETERUM CENSEO CALDARI NERFAM ESSE |
Terianna Eri
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Greymoon Avatar mount 1-2 Sensor Backup Arrays of a type that is different from your ships racial type
im pretty sure that that doesnt' ****ing do anything ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Greymoon Avatar
Caldari Reasonable People True Reign
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: DHB WildCat
So you are suggesting that pilots put a ... for example... magnomtric backup array on a gravemetric ship!?
Okay.... thanks for the input. Not sure why you want to do that but interesting theory.
Well, when that Blackbird tries to ECM your Gravemetric ship and FAILS, because you can still target him using magnometrics, then it becomes his bad day. The only way to jam such a ship is to use both a grav and a mag ECM, or risk a multispectral at gimped odds. ...
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Camdelma
Gallente Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: DHB WildCat At the same time lets nerf the logi ships a little bit. Two logis should not be able to tank a ship from 10 people.
That is PRECISELY what logistics should do. they're force multipliers. it's not as if there are a lot of people flying around by themselves with two logis following them around (yes, there are a few, but by no means a majority) a pair of logistics are VERY easy to counter, any kind of EWAR works, webs, painters, damps, ECM, they're probably the single most vulnerable ships to EWAR. In large groups, this doesn't work quite as well, but that's not applicable to your hypothetical situation.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:21:00 -
[17]
I too am a BS aficionado. My take on the best way to fix BSes is multifaceted:
First, give them all 3 more slots. Yes even if it means a 6 midslot geddon.
Second, buff scan resolution base values by 100%.
Third, increase drone bay sizes by 100%, but not the drone bandwidth.
Finally, let them fit a modular Jump Drive that has a range similar to BO range. But let it lock on to a star in addition to a cyno.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Word of Chaos |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Anubis Xian I too am a BS aficionado. My take on the best way to fix BSes is multifaceted:
First, give them all 3 more slots. Yes even if it means a 6 midslot geddon.
Second, buff scan resolution base values by 100%.
Third, increase drone bay sizes by 100%, but not the drone bandwidth.
Finally, let them fit a modular Jump Drive that has a range similar to BO range. But let it lock on to a star in addition to a cyno.
Sounds like a great idea, they should also be able to fit covert ops cloaks, and be immune to ewar apart from focused points or bubbles.
Oh, and let them deploy fighter bombers as well, lets say 5 FBs so it isnt overpowered.
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Ziester
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:30:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Ziester on 07/12/2010 02:34:32
@DBH Wildcat
As I could agree with you concern about Shield/Armor RR on the principle, I'd have to disagree on the roleplaying part of the idea :
Shield Tranfer Arrays emit energy directly into the target ship's existing shield energy, hence strenghtening it instantly.
OTOH, Armor isn't something which should be pumped up as fast as shield, as metal parts would need to be made out of some metal compound, carried by the RR beam, somehow welded up and reinforced to their original absorbing power, thus taking the whole cycle to get things done. ----------
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klyeme
The Mind's Eye Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: DHB WildCat
Problem - Capital ships.... seriously this is completely out of control! I am in a corp of 20 people. We all have Mom's and some of us even have titans. It is too easy to build these things and they are too cheap for their abilities. Solution - Make them more expensive! Fighters / Fighter bombers should not be able to hit sub caps period! A mom should not be a solo pwn mobile like it is! DD - Make sig based... again too many titans are dropped on lone Battleship becasue it insta pops them and is so cheap to fire the device that it isnt even a factor concidered in firing the divice.
Moms should need to buy missiles and load them into their fighter bombers (each bomber can hold about an hour of constant fire of missiles).
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.12.07 02:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Anubis Xian I too am a BS aficionado. My take on the best way to fix BSes is multifaceted:
First, give them all 3 more slots. Yes even if it means a 6 midslot geddon.
Second, buff scan resolution base values by 100%.
Third, increase drone bay sizes by 100%, but not the drone bandwidth.
Finally, let them fit a modular Jump Drive that has a range similar to BO range. But let it lock on to a star in addition to a cyno.
Sounds like a great idea, they should also be able to fit covert ops cloaks, and be immune to ewar apart from focused points or bubbles.
Oh, and let them deploy fighter bombers as well, lets say 5 FBs so it isnt overpowered.
So you agree then. My ideas aren't silly though, you might want to rethink yours.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Word of Chaos |
Czar Marcus
Mavros Stratiotis
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:02:00 -
[22]
ECM - It sucks in small gangs/solo, but that's never going to change. Being jammed has always and will always suck. Solution : - Fit Countermeasures and cross your fingers or use ECM drones and hope you jam them.
Tracking issues - Vs what? Other battleships? Nope. Battlecruisers? Nope. Cruisers? Not really, but these ships weren't designed for that anyways. Frigates? Sure, but battleships weren't designed for that and you do have a drone bay for a reason.....Cruise missile DPS is fine. It's designed for long range damage. Torps are designed for short range. It's the same as the difference between heavy and assaults. Assaults do high dps, but are short range. You can hit with cruise and torps. If you're fighting stuff that's flying faster than you're missiles then sick your drones on them or suck it up. Nobody ever said eve was fair or that there was one ship to rule them all.
What? Both shield tanking and armor tanking are fine for fleets. Both are effective. AB Armor HAC fleets are incredibly effective too.
Probing? What? Really?
At this point I'm going to stop replying to your points and just let you know what the rest of the community is thinking.
This is one/all of 4 problems:
A) Your FC's suck and can't manage their fleets B) You suck and don't understand that EVE isn't WoW and not everything is going to be balanced all the time for your particular needs C) If you all have Moms and Titans then why are you complaining? They are immune to ECM anyways. Go fighter bomb/DD stuff. D) All of the above
Honestly, I'm going to go with my gut instinct and say it's D. If you really have SOOOOO many titans, moms, carriers, star destroyers, and everything else in the world then you wouldn't be as upset as you are.
My old corps flew battleship fleets all of the time and were incredibly successful. Sometimes you win and sometimes you explode.
Welcome to Eve.
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Flesh Slurper
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:05:00 -
[23]
ECM issue: Fit ECCM
Tracking Problem: BS are not supposed to be the end all of tacklers. How about having a interceptor in your small gang? You also can fit tracking computers, tracking enhancers, sensor boosters, smaller weapons and/or plenty of light drones.
Tanking: Lol.. just a little while ago we were hearing shield user whines about how armor tanking was so much better than shield.
Probing: Oh well I guess thats what you get for flying a big bulky ship. You could protect your snipers you know. Also, people can just fly cloaked up to your snipers without even probing them out.
Cap ships: Yeah.. I agree those hurt.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:41:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/12/2010 03:43:11 Hmmm... I have to agree. Here's some thoughts (a few more than I originally estimated!): - BCs deliver near BS performance at a fraction of the price (BS modules cost more than Cr modules) - BCs deliver near BS performance at a fraction of the SP - BCs are much more mobile than BS's - which enormously helps both offense and defense - BCs lock much faster than BS's. - Cap/Supercap proliferation make it stupid to field a BS fleet. - Cap/Supercap proliferation make it generally redundant to field a BS because they do more damage and have much larger tanks. They're also significantly more mobile than a BS.
Basically it boils down to mobility. Battleships don't have it, and they don't bring much more to the table than the things that do have it.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:49:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Culmen on 07/12/2010 03:50:02
Originally by: Greymoon Avatar
Well, when that Blackbird tries to ECM your Gravemetric ship and FAILS, because you can still target him using magnometrics, then it becomes his bad day. The only way to jam such a ship is to use both a grav and a mag ECM, or risk a multispectral at gimped odds.
This is rather sad, because your wrong on not one but two diffrent levels
First, flat pluses to Sensor Strength have been removed, both Backup and ECCM modules both give percentage bonuses (stacking nerfed). And a 96% bonus to zero is still zero.
Second, in order to jam you only need to defeat ONE sensor type, not ALL. This is probably why they removed the flat bonuses, to reduce the whining from idiots who thought their Backup arrays were ineffective. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- BCs are much more mobile than BS's - which enormously helps both offense and defense - BCs lock much faster than BS's. - Cap/Supercap proliferation make it stupid to field a BS fleet. - Cap/Supercap proliferation make it generally redundant to field a BS because they do more damage and have much larger tanks. They're also significantly more mobile than a BS.
Basically it boils down to mobility. Battleships don't have it, and they don't bring much more to the table than the things that do have it.
-Liang
Well put. It's ironic that a BS fleet is the least mobile of any fleet you can put together. Speed counts for so much in this game...and ships that are tactically slow tend to also be operationally slow. What if BS entered warp and warped much faster? It would make tooling around in a BS fleet less agonizingly slow compared to ...well, any alternative, while not making BS able to suddenly start outrunning cruisers on the battlefield.
Also, I find it odd that BS lock things so slowly...it makes perfect sense and is balanced for ships smaller than they are, but a BS has far more room for advanced electronics than a tiny frigate does: It should be locking equally sig sized ships (so, shield extended BC, BS) very fast indeed.
And I yearn to see some significant reduction in supercap power/availability/ubiquity.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:54:00 -
[27]
remember that time they nerfed ecm and boosted the strength....
quite simply you had your fun, but battleships aren't supposed to be solo boats. although I guess you are right on most of the rest of it.
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente United Mining And Distribution
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:56:00 -
[28]
I agree with most everything, except the armor RR and tracking. At least I don't have to play Supercapitals OnlineÖ in wormhole space
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.07 03:57:00 -
[29]
As frequent battleship solo/small gang flier, probing is never a problem for me since cloak is pretty much required. A solo battleship cannot survive without cloak+MWD. Not unless you play in stupid way
ECM is a typical problem, but it's not too bad, especially since batleships have high natural sensor strength. Tracking is also not an issue. There are webs, scrambles, smart piloting to keep traverse low. Both ECM and tracking have been unchanged since battleship era.
Battleships used to be cool, but not anymore, what changed? 2 things: 1) The Great Nano Nerf happened - partly thanks to short sighted whiners like DHB WildCat here, who made a big rant about his nano-Mach and ended up getting everyone nerfed.
Solo and small gangs rely on speed more than anyone else. The Great Nano Nerf took a big chunk out of small gang strength for everyone, and in battleships in particular since no amount of mods and implants can give you significant edge over the enemy cruise gang.
2) proliferation of caps and supercap. There are so many of them it's ridiculous. And every noob in a farmer Raven can fit a cyno and be safe knowing that when he lights up, his friendly titan bridge or carrier fleet will immediately appear from 15 jumps away.
If you just try roaming in battleship now, you'll get hot dropped within 2 hours for certain. Even if you fly some expensive t2 or t3 ship, they'll hotdrop you just cause they got nothing better to do.
And CCP in the infinite stupidity never thought of adding some kind of mobile cyno jammer to counter such easy and lame tactic.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.12.07 04:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ulstan Also, I find it odd that BS lock things so slowly...it makes perfect sense and is balanced for ships smaller than they are, but a BS has far more room for advanced electronics than a tiny frigate does: It should be locking equally sig sized ships (so, shield extended BC, BS) very fast indeed.
The locking mechanic was implemented before missiles and turret formulae were adjusted to stop the domination of the BS. It is a relic that really has no need to continue to exist.
No other game makes targeting such a chore.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Word of Chaos |
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