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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:00:00 -
[1]
What would you argue to keep it in the game? Assuming that they replaced the Caldari Recon ships with an equally effective EWAR, and that ECCM and Sensor Backup Arrays still gave a useful effect, what would you say to defend the ECM mechanic in the game.
Stuff like "I think it is one of the few counters to Spider-Tanking", "I think it is an interesting and challenging mechanic" etc.
I would like to hear your thoughts.
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:02:00 -
[2]
Q: If CCP proposed that would you stop posting terrible threads?
A: Highly unlikely.
Originally by: CCP Zulu You're assuming I read threads before I turdpost in them :)
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:03:00 -
[3]
I would argue that it shouldn't have been done just to appease one obsessed person who made lots of threads about it on the forum.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Forum Guy
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:06:00 -
[4]
Why remove ECM or ECCM, there is no reason to remove them, if they are not working correctly then they don't need removing they need fixing.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:09:00 -
[5]
Originally by: frog0ut Assuming that they replaced the Caldari Recon ships ECM with an equally effective EWAR
ASSUMING that, absolutely nothing against it. But that's a pretty big assumption. Also, weren't you complaining it's TOO effective in the first place ? If something equally effective takes its place, what's the point ?
TL;DR : STFU spammy troll. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Forum Guy Why remove ECM or ECCM, there is no reason to remove them, if they are not working correctly then they don't need removing they need fixing.
It is just a Hypothetical Question, I am not suggesting they are not working correctly, or need to be removed. I am merely interested in peoples responses to maintaining the ECM mechanic if a suitable replacement was given to the Caldari EWAR ships.
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:10:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Akita T TL;DR : STFU spammy troll.
Not empty quoting.
Originally by: CCP Zulu You're assuming I read threads before I turdpost in them :)
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frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:13:00 -
[8]
Edited by: frog0ut on 07/12/2010 14:13:45
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: frog0ut Assuming that they replaced the Caldari Recon ships ECM with an equally effective EWAR
ASSUMING that, absolutely nothing against it. But that's a pretty big assumption. Also, weren't you complaining it's TOO effective in the first place ? If something equally effective takes its place, what's the point ?
TL;DR : STFU spammy troll.
I am not complaining that it is too effective, this is just a hypothetical question regarding the ECM mechanic itself. By something equally effective I mean something which would allow the Caldari Ewar ships to cripple 2-3 ships in fleets, while not completely "totalhelldeath"ing something into complete uselessness.
As for the personal attacks, grow up you babbies.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:14:00 -
[9]
OP unbanned already from the last spamming spree?
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Gallians
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:21:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Gallians on 07/12/2010 14:21:38 Hey frogOut, glad to see you got over your Ecm thi... oh wait..
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Akita T on 07/12/2010 14:25:53
Originally by: frog0ut I am not complaining that it is too effective, this is just a hypothetical question regarding the ECM mechanic itself.
No, it's not a hypothetical question. Or will you start perhaps claiming that you're no longer totally-anti-ECM ? Or maybe that you somehow magically conjured some reasons why it's completely imbalanced and absolutely needs to go away ? I somehow doubt any of that is true. As in, I am absolutely sure.
What your "hypothetical question" is in reality ? It's equal parts a stealth cry for support when you failed to garner any (or so little as to be negligible) and an attempt to shift the burden of proof from you to us.
HINT : when attempting to argue against the status quo, YOU have to provide arguments the status quo is wrong, NOT for those content with it to provide you with positive proof of why it should be exactly that way. If you have a better alternative, then by all means, present that better alternative in detail.
Quote: By something equally effective I mean something which would allow the Caldari Ewar ships to cripple 2-3 ships in fleets
Yes, I too like to assume something is completely doable without bothering to even come up with any shred of an idea of what it might possibly be. And no, it's not on us to decide what that alternative might be. YOU want something else, YOU come up with a less annoying-to-you alternative that's satisfactory for most of the rest of the people.
HINT : you might try, oh, I don't know, suggesting that ECM should not be chance-based at all but instead have a flat -X maxtargets effect. Of course, that's an even worse idea than how ECM works nowadays, but it's an idea. You come up with a better one. We can't or won't.
Quote: while not completely "totalhelldeath"ing something into complete uselessness.
ECCM (both the local and remote variety), ECCM-like gang effects and implants, friendly ECM targeted at the enemy ECM boats, snipers out of effective ECM range taking potshots at the ECMer, drones and FoF missiles, and I could go on and on about perfectly legitimate counters or "mitigating factors" when faced with ECM, but then again, you heard all of it before and decided to ignore everything while clinging to your idea that "ECM is, like, so totally unfair, and I want it gone".
So, to repeat... TL;DR : STFU, spammy troll. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:34:00 -
[12]
the problem with ballencing ECM against any other EW is that its primary effect however likly it 'hits' is totally detrimental to fast paced pvp.
That has to chance for any vauge fair ballence to happen, and since ccp like ecm being toally boring and stupid, then its not going to change.
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Nicholas Barker
Diabolus Ex Machina The Amazing Onjoi and his Educated Rodents
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:39:00 -
[13]
I think they'd just have to give them a slightly better tank and reduce the range of the ECM on falcons. Caldari are mostly about range, and ECM reflects this. The other recons generally have to be reasonably close to do anything effectively and are often part of the fight in other ways where as falcons tend to just sit far away being gay and bringing the fight to a complete halt for the opposing side.
It also wouldn't be a problem if you didn't have large gangs going around with one or two falcons for the sole purpose of making it impossible for the lone ship they're hoping to gank to even put up some resistance. But that's more to do with **** players out for an easy gank rather than a real challenge. ------
0800-LAG-A-NODE
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Gay Greatness
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Posted - 2010.12.07 14:39:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Gay Greatness on 07/12/2010 14:39:55 So, you dare to challenge Easy Mode EWAR do you?
ECM mechanics are just the [What is the opposite of the tip of the iceberg, or the cherry on the cake anyway?].
The whole ridiculous digital locking mechanism needs a kick in the face and all other electronic warfare, sensor, probing, yes cloaking, d-scanning and emission/transmission/absorption attributes need to be brought into a single unifying mechanic based on actual ship properties you can actually change with modules, skills and strategic activities, a change the likes of which would make veterans wish they'd never even heard of Eve:Online.
So it'll never happen.
Trying to fix ECM in Eve today is a lot like trying to find a Kimono that looks good on a fat chick. |
stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:30:00 -
[15]
Change it.
Current problem: ECM can completely lock down a player ship. Being completely locked down and helpless is not fun.
Solution: Let the target ship do something. Allow operations to continue to work while ECM'd but at degraded efficiency.
a) The target of ECM (the ECMee) is under a reverse target painter effect. All of ECMee's targets have their sig sized reduced. This means longer lock times and less damage. (It could also make interceptors almost "invisible" which could be a problem.)
b) Instead of all target locks being lost, only a few at random are lost throughout the ECM cycle.
c1) ECM causes weapons cycles to "skip." Meaning, ECM can cause a gun to not fire this cycle, but you still have to wait a full cycle to fire again. The rationale is that the targeting computer has to recalculate the firing solution.
c2) ECM randomly causes individual weapons to miss. Meaning, if you fire several weapons, ECM causes some of the weapons to automatically miss. The rationale is that the weapon fired at a sensor ghost.
d) The ECMee's overview shows all targets as 'unknown.'
End result: diminished firepower and/or loss of tactical ability (due to unreliable target selection.)
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:32:00 -
[16]
itstimetostopposting.jpg
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:33:00 -
[17]
Hypothetical Question: If CCP Proposed Removing the Moa Hull for something nice looking .... how much of you would ragequit and why??
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: frog0ut
I would like to hear your thoughts.
At this point, no you really wouldn't. I'm going to self censor them and provide you with a summary instead.
We understand that you're aggravated about ECM. My guess is you have been/still are getting killed by a team of ships that include one or several ECM ships and they keep jamming you into inaction.
However, your repeated bad posts on the forums are doing nothing but ****ing the rest of us off. ECM is working fine, and it's not unbeatable, if you know how.
Please stop now. We get it, you're mad. Let it go. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jovan Geldon itstimetostopposting.jpg
I think you might be able to join and interact with a community better if it was more on your level of intellect. I recommend signing up and posting here. Your more likely to find men your age (12 years old) who will socially accept you, laugh at your terrible trolling which only makes you look like a douchebag. and have someone actually respect you.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling Hypothetical Question: If CCP Proposed Removing the Moa Hull for something nice looking .... how much of you would ragequit and why??
As long as it was still asymmetrical I wouldn't care. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: frog0ut hurr durr
u mad bro?
Originally by: CCP Zulu You're assuming I read threads before I turdpost in them :)
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:45:00 -
[22]
Special link that ONLY the op should read.
2011 CCP plans to change ECM by Oveur
I hope that link is hypothetical enough for you.
_________________________ CSM Candidate for 2011 (soon a pretty photoshop sig) Aelius 2011 Candidacy Guide Lines |
Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: frog0ut
By something equally effective I mean something which would allow the Caldari Ewar ships to cripple 2-3 ships in fleets, while not completely "totalhelldeath"ing something into complete uselessness.
This makes no sense. If you're replacing it with something equally effective, why replace it at all? This is just a personal crusade by somehow who wants to get his own way.
Anyways, if you replace ECM boats with a ship that's still able to "cripple 2-3 ships in a fleet", you've just re-introduced the ECM boat. Explain the difference. EXPLAIN IT!
Can I block people on forums like I can in help channel?
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frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: captain foivos
Originally by: frog0ut hurr durr
u mad bro?
Considering you have posted random one liner personal attacks in all my friends, where as I have either completely ignored you or explained my position rationally. It seems you are the one who comes into my threads emotionally.
I'd recommend getting some better outdated 4chan memes than "umad?", you just won't look cool enough to the kool-aid kiddies, which is who I'm presuming is the peer group you're trying to impress with those outdated 2007 memes.
Better yet, stop posting forever.
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:50:00 -
[25]
Oh, and to answer your original question, my argument to keep ECM in the game would be to go throughout the forums and make spam threads demanding ECM stay but not giving any real reasons, just like what you're doing to try to get rid of it.
Why don't you get it? You have no support on this. Give it up. You've completely failed. You're a failure. You fail.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
Can I block people on forums like I can in help channel?
No, but you can mock them relentlessly, which is almost just as good. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
CAPSLOCKBROKEN CEO
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:53:00 -
[27]
Originally by: frog0ut I HATE YOU FOIVOS
HE MAD.
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frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:53:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08 Give it up. You've completely failed. You're a failure. You fail.
http://www.4chan.org/
Enjoy, a community which will accept your anonymous personal attacks and childish tantrums with glee!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:57:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Tippia on 07/12/2010 15:57:43
Originally by: frog0ut I am not complaining that it is too effective
Yes you are. Constantly.
I answer to your hypothetical question: I would say that it there was no useful reason for removing it.
Quote: I would like to hear your thoughts.
What made you change your mind? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:58:00 -
[30]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
No, but you can spam worthless tripe across the forums hoping for once in my life that someone will find me amusing and worthwhile, which is almost as good
Originally by: CAPSLOCKBROKEN CEO
I'm a worthless ***got, and I haven't got any more memes than umad? My mother constantly reminds me that she wished she swallowed that night
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:59:00 -
[31]
Originally by: frog0ut
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08 Give it up. You've completely failed. You're a failure. You fail.
http://www.4chan.org/
Enjoy, a community which will accept your anonymous personal attacks and childish tantrums with glee!
lol I've made two completely legitimate points, and you didn't address them. And you wonder why noone takes you and your campaign seriously.
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:00:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 07/12/2010 16:00:23
Originally by: frOgout Assuming that they replaced the Caldari Recon ships with an equally effective EWAR..
If it's equally effective, isn't it the same then?
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frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:01:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
lol I've made two completely legitimate points, and you didn't address them. And you wonder why noone takes you and your campaign seriously.
When you grow up and post a legitimate point without a personal attack at the bottom of your post, until then, you're a worthless 4chan reject like the rest of the community flaming me.
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:04:00 -
[34]
Originally by: frog0ut
When you grow up and post a legitimate point without a personal attack at the bottom of your post
Originally by: frog0ut you're a worthless 4chan reject like the rest of the community flaming me.
Trololololol
Originally by: CCP Zulu You're assuming I read threads before I turdpost in them :)
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Cailais
Amarr Random Pirate's
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:08:00 -
[35]
I would argue to keep ECM in the game. It is a real battlefield leveller when faced with a particularly troublesome target that needs to be blocked out of the battlefield.
In fact there is perhaps is no more a joyous feeling than watching your target, suitably equipped with the latest in faction kit, flail around helplessly as you strip their armour from them because they couldn't be bothered to learn the intricacies of PVP and defend themselves accordingly.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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Schmacos tryne
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:23:00 -
[36]
If ECM "adds nothing to the game"(tm) it is only a matter of getting to vote to the CSM, make people think it's a terrible game mechanics, convince CCP they can make money by getting rid of it, win by a minor margin and voilla, ECM gone by new year.
Btw, I have a lot of friends who quit Eve when they saw how stupid ECM is. I am sure I can convince most of them to play Eve as soon as it is removed.
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Tyber Zaan
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:31:00 -
[37]
Yet another person has gone to the "I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG" argument.
ECM is FINE. Learn 2 ECCM.
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Doddy
Burning Vendetta
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: stoicfaux Change it.
Current problem: ECM can completely lock down a player ship. Being completely locked down and helpless is not fun.
Dunno, i think i would rather be ecm jammed with the knowledge i will eventually get a lock (assuming i amn't flying a t1 frig and being jammed by a high skilled rook pilot, in which case i should be screwed anyway) than damped with no possibility of locking at all.
All of the things you suggest would result in no one flying ecm boats, thus remoning an entire level of tactical complexity in the game.
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Taedrin
Gallente The Green Cross Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:43:00 -
[39]
Argument against removing ECM?
ECM has a unique position in EVE as being a force multiplier. It adds a strategic element to fleet compositions. On the one hand, having ALL ECM boats is highly ineffective, as it becomes difficult to spread the ECM around equally and ECM boats generally have poor DPS, inability to tackle, are chance based (meaning that they can fail, as opposed to other forms of ECM) and don't tank well. On the otherhand, having no ECM at all puts you at a serious disadvantage. So thus the challenge to an FC is finding the correct amount of balance between number of DPS ships, and number of ECM ships.
IMO, if anything at all should be changed, it should be a change to ECCM to grant it a secondary beneficial effect. Currently, ECCM is the *ONLY* anti-ewar module which does not provide you with some sort of combat improvement.
E.G. - sensor boosters counter remote sensor damps, but they ALSO increase your targeting speed/range. Tracking computers/enhancers counter tracking disruptors, but ALSO increase your turret range/tracking.
ECCM on the other hand, is only useful in two situations: situations where there is enemy ECM on the field, and when you are trying to make an unprobable ship. ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:43:00 -
[40]
Originally by: frog0ut
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
lol I've made two completely legitimate points, and you didn't address them. And you wonder why noone takes you and your campaign seriously.
When you grow up and post a legitimate point without a personal attack at the bottom of your post, until then, you're a worthless 4chan reject like the rest of the community flaming me.
lol so eveyrone's wrong and you're right. And we're the 4chan rejects? You seem to know an awful lot about this 4chan thing.
Why is this thread not locked yet?
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Aunty Nora
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:44:00 -
[41]
All this over a vexor lol
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: frog0ut
Originally by: De'Veldrin
No, but you can spam worthless tripe across the forums hoping for once in my life that someone will find me amusing and worthwhile, which is almost as good
And yet I'm not the one spamming the forums with a couple of dozen threads on the same topic despite the fact that every single one of them has garnered pretty much exactly the same response. Your threads are the forum equivalent of a four year old with his fingers in his ears going "I can't hear you, I can't hear you." You won't admit that any opinion on the matter but your own is correct, even through reasoned argument and discussion, so we as a community have decided that you, as individual, are no more worthy of serious attention than the aforementioned four year old.
Sorry, but you did this to yourself. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
Doddy
Burning Vendetta
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:47:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Taedrin Currently, ECCM is the *ONLY* anti-ewar module which does not provide you with some sort of combat improvement.
Maybe they could make it so you become unprobable with enough eccm on your ship. That would be pretty cool wouldn't it.
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Taedrin
Gallente The Green Cross Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:55:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Taedrin Currently, ECCM is the *ONLY* anti-ewar module which does not provide you with some sort of combat improvement.
Maybe they could make it so you become unprobable with enough eccm on your ship. That would be pretty cool wouldn't it.
Currently, this is only possible on certain ships which have the correct sensor strength:sig radius ratios. I think it's technically possible to make unprobable battlecruisers, but they aren't very effective fits. This is why the vast majority of unprobable ships are T3s.
Furthermore, a ship being unprobable gives no COMBAT performance enhancement. It does, however, help you to avoid combat. I suppose it all comes down to personal opinion. My opinion is that this isn't enough of a benefit for people to justify sacrificing a precious mid slot for an ECCM when it can be used for other mods which provide more benefits in more situations. ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:57:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Taedrin Currently, ECCM is the *ONLY* anti-ewar module which does not provide you with some sort of combat improvement.
Maybe they could make it so you become unprobable with enough eccm on your ship. That would be pretty cool wouldn't it.
Yes, if they made it so that it was a universally available benefit, then maybe. Right now, it's a special-purpose kind of use that only works with some ships, and which does, in fact, not give you any combat improvements (quite the opposite: the whole point of it is not to be in combat)à ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Cailais
Amarr Random Pirate's
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:58:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Taedrin
Furthermore, a ship being unprobable gives no COMBAT performance enhancement. It does, however, help you to avoid combat.
Thereby allowing you to engage in combat at your own discretion which, in effect is........a combat bonus.
Combat isn't just about how much dps you can pew pew.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:02:00 -
[47]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
And yet I'm not the one spamming the forums with a couple of dozen threads on the same topic despite the fact that every single one of them has garnered pretty much exactly the same response. Your threads are the forum equivalent of a four year old with his fingers in his ears going "I can't hear you, I can't hear you." You won't admit that any opinion on the matter but your own is correct, even through reasoned argument and discussion, so we as a community have decided that you, as individual, are no more worthy of serious attention than the aforementioned four year old.
Sorry, but you did this to yourself.
You've never provided anythign constructive. So please, don't flatter yourself by trying to justify being a douchebag.
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:09:00 -
[48]
Originally by: frog0ut
Originally by: De'Veldrin
And yet I'm not the one spamming the forums with a couple of dozen threads on the same topic despite the fact that every single one of them has garnered pretty much exactly the same response. Your threads are the forum equivalent of a four year old with his fingers in his ears going "I can't hear you, I can't hear you." You won't admit that any opinion on the matter but your own is correct, even through reasoned argument and discussion, so we as a community have decided that you, as individual, are no more worthy of serious attention than the aforementioned four year old.
Sorry, but you did this to yourself.
You've never provided anythign constructive. So please, don't flatter yourself by trying to justify being a douchebag.
lol just relentlessly stupid. Just when the conversation was going in a good direction, he comes in with this. Absolutely useless
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:12:00 -
[49]
Originally by: frog0ut You've never provided anythign constructive. So please, don't flatter yourself by trying to justify being a douchebag.
What a coincidence, this was exactly what I was thinking about you ! _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Doddy
Burning Vendetta
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Taedrin Currently, ECCM is the *ONLY* anti-ewar module which does not provide you with some sort of combat improvement.
Maybe they could make it so you become unprobable with enough eccm on your ship. That would be pretty cool wouldn't it.
Currently, this is only possible on certain ships which have the correct sensor strength:sig radius ratios. I think it's technically possible to make unprobable battlecruisers, but they aren't very effective fits. This is why the vast majority of unprobable ships are T3s.
This is wrong tbh, its possible on most ships with the right combination of implants/boosters/mods. Also on any ship it makes you harder to probe down so any shp gets a benefit, other than supercaps on which there is no point putting on eccm in the first place.
Your point on using eccm for a mid slot instead of other mods which are more useful just shows how small a problem ecm is. Its also a bit like saying em damage should be removed so you can fit more useful mods than em hardners, wtf?
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frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:18:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: frog0ut You've never provided anythign constructive. So please, don't flatter yourself by trying to justify being a douchebag.
What a coincidence, this was exactly what I was thinking about you !
Just get out of my thread already, there have been many constructive replies, and you're just created noise. 4chan.org is that way -->. If you're going to only post in this thread to spite me, then I suggest you read the forums rules and stop flaming me. Any further posts from you are probably not going to be on topic, tasteful, or constructive, so please read the forums rules and get out
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:24:00 -
[52]
Does anyone have the link to his killmail so we can point and laugh?
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:24:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Corporal Punishment08 on 07/12/2010 17:24:35
Originally by: frog0ut
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: frog0ut You've never provided anythign constructive. So please, don't flatter yourself by trying to justify being a douchebag.
What a coincidence, this was exactly what I was thinking about you !
Just get out of my thread already, there have been many constructive replies, and you're just created noise. 4chan.org is that way -->. If you're going to only post in this thread to spite me, then I suggest you read the forums rules and stop flaming me. Any further posts from you are probably not going to be on topic, tasteful, or constructive, so please read the forums rules and get out
This from the guy who's been banned twice already. Such an expert on forum rules.
ECM works as intended. You're just trying to nerf Caldari some more.
Originally by: Mr LaForge Does anyone have the link to his killmail so we can point and laugh?
We don't need a km to point and laugh ;)
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Tyber Zaan
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:25:00 -
[54]
Originally by: frog0ut
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: frog0ut You've never provided anythign constructive. So please, don't flatter yourself by trying to justify being a douchebag.
What a coincidence, this was exactly what I was thinking about you !
Just get out of my thread already, there have been many constructive replies, and you're just created noise. 4chan.org is that way -->. If you're going to only post in this thread to spite me, then I suggest you read the forums rules and stop flaming me. Any further posts from you are probably not going to be on topic, tasteful, or constructive, so please read the forums rules and get out
This is eve.
Adapt or die, stop complaining about ECM and going "NO U" to anyone who tries to help you and either:
A. Fit your pvp ships with ECCM B. Bring some friends.
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frog0ut
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Mr LaForge Does anyone have the link to his killmail so we can point and laugh?
The haters cannot provide one, because it was fake, removed from eve-kill, and the poster got banned. They are mostly here for the attention that they didn't get during their rough childhoods, than to post anything constructive
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Taedrin
Gallente The Green Cross Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:29:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Taedrin on 07/12/2010 17:31:03
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Taedrin Currently, ECCM is the *ONLY* anti-ewar module which does not provide you with some sort of combat improvement.
Maybe they could make it so you become unprobable with enough eccm on your ship. That would be pretty cool wouldn't it.
Currently, this is only possible on certain ships which have the correct sensor strength:sig radius ratios. I think it's technically possible to make unprobable battlecruisers, but they aren't very effective fits. This is why the vast majority of unprobable ships are T3s.
This is wrong tbh, its possible on most ships with the right combination of implants/boosters/mods. Also on any ship it makes you harder to probe down so any shp gets a benefit, other than supercaps on which there is no point putting on eccm in the first place.
Your point on using eccm for a mid slot instead of other mods which are more useful just shows how small a problem ecm is. Its also a bit like saying em damage should be removed so you can fit more useful mods than em hardners, wtf?
Which I can completely understand.
That's actually why I originally said:
Quote: IMO, if anything at all should be changed, it should be a change to ECCM
I just personally believe that ECCM isn't "attractive" enough as a generic combat module, compared to other anti-ewar modules. So I believe that a buff to ECCM would be more balanced - but it isn't necessary to the game. Just some food for thought.
I will also have to agree that the complaints about ECM are blowing things way out of proporation. In the event that you get permalocked by ECM, you are generally already in a few vs. many situation, in which case you were going to die anyways. or you were primaried, and you are going to die anyways also. ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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oldmanst4r
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:31:00 -
[57]
Originally by: frog0ut What would you argue to keep it in the game? Assuming that they replaced the Caldari Recon ships with an equally effective EWAR, and that ECCM and Sensor Backup Arrays still gave a useful effect, what would you say to defend the ECM mechanic in the game.
Stuff like "I think it is one of the few counters to Spider-Tanking", "I think it is an interesting and challenging mechanic" etc.
I would like to hear your thoughts.
How about I answer that by asking you this, Why in Chribba's name do you want to get rid of ECM?
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Taedrin
Gallente The Green Cross Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:42:00 -
[58]
Originally by: oldmanst4r
Originally by: frog0ut What would you argue to keep it in the game? Assuming that they replaced the Caldari Recon ships with an equally effective EWAR, and that ECCM and Sensor Backup Arrays still gave a useful effect, what would you say to defend the ECM mechanic in the game.
Stuff like "I think it is one of the few counters to Spider-Tanking", "I think it is an interesting and challenging mechanic" etc.
I would like to hear your thoughts.
How about I answer that by asking you this, Why in Chribba's name do you want to get rid of ECM?
Do you even read these forums? Through out the history of EVE, there have been MANY arguments against ECM:
1) They can completely disable my ship entirely, with giving me NO chance at reprisal at all (this is why CCP changed ECM from ALWAYS being successful if ECM strength > sensor strength to being chance based).
2) ECM is just plain far too effective compared to other ewar options (this is why CCP introduced the first ECM nerf, because at this time a multispectral ECM was considered a MANDATORY module for ALL PvP ships. After this nerf, remote sensor damps became all the rage, and CCP introduced scripts to nerf remote sensor damps too)
3) ECM allows an enemy to be insanely effective at combat without having to sacrifice any tank at all (This is why CCP introduced the original Scorpion nerf, and introduced signal dispersion ampliers after nerfing the effectiveness of ECM - so that ECM boats would have to choose between tank and ECM effectiveness).
4) ECM allows an enemy to be insanely effective without ever having to be in danger of being engaged, due to their insane range (This is why CCP introduced the falcon nerf - because Falcons were able to permajam from 140+km, and could always warp out and warp back in if anyone tried to approach them)
IIRC, the *ONLY* thing that has been nerfed more than ECM in EVE Online have been nano-ships.
The remaining complaints against ECM are generally:
5) ECM simply removes my ship from combat, making me unable to play the game at all (untrue - you can still bump, scout, warp out and back in, etc...)
6) ECM is too mandatory in fleet compositions (I would argue: so are RR, tacklers and DPS) ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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VeniVidi Tyrannis
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:46:00 -
[59]
I'd support any proposal to boost ECM because I love watching you squirm
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:47:00 -
[60]
Originally by: frog0ut
Originally by: De'Veldrin
And yet I'm not the one spamming the forums with a couple of dozen threads on the same topic despite the fact that every single one of them has garnered pretty much exactly the same response. Your threads are the forum equivalent of a four year old with his fingers in his ears going "I can't hear you, I can't hear you." You won't admit that any opinion on the matter but your own is correct, even through reasoned argument and discussion, so we as a community have decided that you, as individual, are no more worthy of serious attention than the aforementioned four year old.
Sorry, but you did this to yourself.
You've never provided anythign constructive. So please, don't flatter yourself by trying to justify being a douchebag.
You do realize I'm not the one they're all laughing at, right?
That aside, why should I attempt to provide anything constructive when you have, time and time again, proven that you don't want to hear things that are constructive, you want to hear people agreeing with you. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:48:00 -
[61]
Originally by: frog0ut I would like to hear your thoughts.
Only if they are in agreement with yours. amirite?
We know you're butt hurt Froggy, but we only care enough to laugh at you and post about it. Let's hope, you get another forum ban over it.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:48:00 -
[62]
Oh look, it's this thread again. Originally by: frog0ut If CCP Proposed Removing ECM, what would you argue to keep it in the game?
That would depend on:
- Why they proposed its removal
- What they proposed as its replacement
|24 Hour Plex|Mining Makeover| |
price checkinho
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:50:00 -
[63]
Originally by: ilikeboys What would you argue to keep me in the game? Assuming that they replaced the Caldari Recon ships with an equally effective EWAR, and that ECCM and Sensor Backup Arrays still gave a useful effect, what would you say to defend the ECM mechanic in the game.
Stuff like "I think it is one of the few counters to Spider-Tanking", "I think it is an interesting and challenging mechanic" etc.
I would like to hear your thoughts.
ECM isnt broken and niether is ECCM, so why would CCP remove them from the game? Your question is assanine and trollish, and relates to several closed and moved threads on the matter.
Furhtermore hypothetical questions are so 7th grade its not funny.
What would YOU do if improbable variable x happened? I would obviously do improbable variable y to counter.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.07 17:58:00 -
[64]
Originally by: frog0ut Just get out of my thread already, there have been many constructive replies, and you're just created noise.
Me. Noise. Riiiiiight.... Because you have so eloquently dismantled all of my arguments so far or something. And you added a lot of non-noise to the discussion. Projecting much ?
How about you answer to post #11 in this very thread first for a change ? _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.07 18:07:00 -
[65]
Okay, somebody help me out here.
There are two frogouts: frog0ut and fr0gout. fr0gout is a year old character. frog0ut is only a couple of weeks old. Are they like.. the same person? Or is one just a troll alt? They both seem to have rampant issues with ECM but frog0ut may just be somebody trying to make fr0gout look bad.
|24 Hour Plex|Mining Makeover| |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.12.07 18:09:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Black Dranzer Okay, somebody help me out here.
There are two frogouts: frog0ut and fr0gout. fr0gout is a year old character. frog0ut is only a couple of weeks old. Are they like.. the same person? Or is one just a troll alt? They both seem to have rampant issues with ECM but frog0ut may just be somebody trying to make fr0gout look bad.
fr0gout got a forum ban for spamming ECM threads. The other is his spamming more ECM threads alt.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Magnus Orin
Minmatar United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.12.07 18:20:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Magnus Orin on 07/12/2010 18:20:55 ECM is pretty much the main counter to logistics heavy fleets.
That alone is enough reason to keep it. Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you. |
Strogen Mkok
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.12.07 18:24:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Mr LaForge Does anyone have the link to his killmail so we can point and laugh?
This might be it. Not sure though, and it's not API verified.
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Doddy
Burning Vendetta
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Posted - 2010.12.07 18:25:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Taedrin
5) ECM simply removes my ship from combat, making me unable to play the game at all (untrue - you can still bump, scout, warp out and back in, etc...)
Smartbombs, drones, foff missiles, gang-links, and thats assuming your ship isn't a supercap or a cap in seige/triage mode.
Originally by: Taedrin
6) ECM is too mandatory in fleet compositions (I would argue: so are RR, tacklers and DPS)
I dunno what fleets you have been flying in tbh, the last ecm nerf saw the number of ecm boats being used in fleets drop radically. There are very very few fleets where ecm boats are even mentioned when people are organising fleets. They are mainly used to try and disrupt RR and without ecm RRvsDPS would be the only thing that mattered, which is fail.
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1ee7W4rr10z
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Posted - 2010.12.07 19:07:00 -
[70]
I support nerfing ECM, It's too powerful.
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BECAUSE'OF FALCON
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Posted - 2010.12.07 19:14:00 -
[71]
Y r u so mad bro?
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VC General
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Posted - 2010.12.07 19:23:00 -
[72]
I don't see why ECM is considered so overpowered. Tracking disruptors and damps can make a player just as helpless, and they don't have a chance to fail at optimal. Oh wait, I forgot everyone flies FoF Drakes now. Nevermind, no EWAR works.
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2010.12.07 19:25:00 -
[73]
Originally by: frog0ut Just get out of my thread already
Originally by: frog0ut get out of my thread
Originally by: frog0ut my thread
wat
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Alexandra Stormwing
Blood Money Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.07 19:40:00 -
[74]
ECM is a pirate's best friend. It's much easier to ransom someone who is having problems targeting you.
It's easy for new players to become helpful to a gang by training up for a cheap griffin. It's a role for them to play other than suicide-rifter-tackle.
There's really no other counter to logistics chains.
ECM allows an otherwise inferior group to engage a more formidable target and have a chance to win.
It can be used defensively as a GTFO option. No other EWar gives you as good an opportunity for escape.
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CCP Adida
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.07 20:51:00 -
[75]
Removed and edited trolling comments.
Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Anyura
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Posted - 2010.12.07 20:54:00 -
[76]
I concur with a number of other posters in this thread. Your last 10 threads have been complaining about ECM and time and again people have present rational arguments as to why it should remain. Your responses to these proposals have been at best to ignore them and at worst flame/troll them.
Yes, I believe that ECM is a valid form of ewar, despite is probability based nature. You overlook the fact that *any* ECM ship, whether it is a Scorpion, Kitsune or (I suspect the source of your annoyance) Falcon is *always* called as a primary target meaning that anything which isn't jammed or succeeds in beating the scrambler strength has a free ticket to DPS away.
Ewar is pretty much all these ships can do though - anyone that fits a Falcon or Kitsune for DPS is a prize tool and will deserve the killmail that swiftly follows. Engaging an ECM ship in 1 to 1 is a fool's tactic and you should recognise the threat of being locked down by one.
However, as you're almost certainly going to ignore what I've written here, Captain Amphibian, here's a suggestion for an alternate form of ewar - a module that reduces rate of fire for turrets and missile systems. I have little doubt that as soon as you are on the receiving end of an alternate version, you will create another 10 threads complaining about it.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.07 20:56:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Tippia on 07/12/2010 20:57:06
Originally by: CCP Adida Removed and edited trolling comments.
You missed a fewà most notably the OP.
Originally by: Anyura Ewar is pretty much all these ships can do though - anyone that fits a Falcon or Kitsune for DPS is a prize tool and will deserve the killmail that swiftly follows. Engaging an ECM ship in 1 to 1 is a fool's tactic and you should recognise the threat of being locked down by one.
Funnily enough, the Rook can be made into a pretty nasty missile spammer, almost like an ECM-carrying Cerb. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Anyura
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Posted - 2010.12.07 21:04:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 07/12/2010 20:57:06
Originally by: CCP Adida Removed and edited trolling comments.
You missed a fewà most notably the OP.
Originally by: Anyura Ewar is pretty much all these ships can do though - anyone that fits a Falcon or Kitsune for DPS is a prize tool and will deserve the killmail that swiftly follows. Engaging an ECM ship in 1 to 1 is a fool's tactic and you should recognise the threat of being locked down by one.
Funnily enough, the Rook can be made into a pretty nasty missile spammer, almost like an ECM-carrying Cerb.
Happy to concede the point, I'm not too clued up on the Rook - I tend to do most of my ewar stuff in EAFs.
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.07 21:59:00 -
[79]
Originally by: frog0ut I am not complaining that ECM is too effective, this is just a hypothetical question regarding the ECM mechanic itself. By something equally effective I mean something which would allow the Caldari Ewar ships to cripple 2-3 ships in fleets, while not completely "totalhelldeath"ing something into complete uselessness.
Well why not replace warp jammers with something else? I mean: ECM may be able to lock things down (and not even 100%) but at least you can still get away - if I'm attacked by an overwhelming outnumbering gang I can't even get away because of warp disruptors/scramblers!!!
Which is far more serious!!
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Brian Ballsack
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Posted - 2010.12.08 13:55:00 -
[80]
Originally by: BECAUSE'OF FALCON Y r u so mad bro?
Because he lost his po0rly fitted Vexor.
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ILikeMarkets
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Posted - 2010.12.08 18:49:00 -
[81]
Personally, I don't see how stunlock is a fun mechanic. Getting outplayed- that is fun. Getting stomped by a ship several times your size... well, less fun, but it isn't horrible. Getting stomped by a large group of ships and having at least a chance to shoot back- more fun than just dying. Sitting and staring at the screen while doing absolutely nothing while someone shoots you- not fun at all.
Stunlock wasn't fun for rogues in warcraft, it wasn't fun for sundancers in Shadowbane, and it isn't fun for EWAR ships in EVE.
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2010.12.08 19:00:00 -
[82]
Originally by: ILikeMarkets Personally, I don't see how stunlock is a fun mechanic. Getting outplayed- that is fun. Getting stomped by a ship several times your size... well, less fun, but it isn't horrible. Getting stomped by a large group of ships and having at least a chance to shoot back- more fun than just dying. Sitting and staring at the screen while doing absolutely nothing while someone shoots you- not fun at all.
Stunlock wasn't fun for rogues in warcraft, it wasn't fun for sundancers in Shadowbane, and it isn't fun for EWAR ships in EVE.
You're not supposed to have fun. You're just supposed to get your ship blown up. The fact is, there are other EWARs that work better than ECM. With an ECM ship, sure you can jam 8 ships hypothetically, good luck. I once had a guy pinned down in my BB. He was in some sort of Battleship. I was like oh sweet, jammed, pointed, what more could I ask for? Then the drones came out. The he got a lock and I died miserably to light scout drones. Ya know what the worst part is? I had him jammed for a full 2 minutes, but I hadn't got him down past 90% shields. And he was armour tanking... Obviously I was out testing my ECM capabilities, otherwise I wouldn't have taken him on, AND I would've warped out the second the drones came out.
ECM needs a dedicated ECM ship in order to be effective, and you can't solo anything. The other types of EWAR can be used in conjuction with weapons to create a far superior vessel.
This is EVE. Adapt or you will be destroyed. I'm sorry if that concept is too complicated for you, or if it seems unfair.
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.08 20:26:00 -
[83]
Originally by: ILikeMarkets Personally, I don't see how stunlock is a fun mechanic. Getting outplayed- that is fun. Sitting and staring at the screen while doing absolutely nothing while someone shoots you- not fun at all.
There's one big difference between stunning/fearing and ECM: you can still get away. ECM doesn't web or warp jam you. That's a HUGE difference.
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Ganagati
Caldari Zebra Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.09 10:01:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
This is EVE. Adapt or you will be destroyed. I'm sorry if that concept is too complicated for you, or if it seems unfair.
It's true, folks do adapt: they pvp less and focus their PvP on blobs.
Nice to see there is more support for getting people to become carebears. :)
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Drugrunner Dude
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Posted - 2010.12.09 10:12:00 -
[85]
Originally by: CCP Adida Removed and edited trolling comments.
Why do you protect him?
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Makko Gray
Nexus Aerospace Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.09 10:24:00 -
[86]
I think ECM is a great type of EWAR to have with plenty of reason to keep it.
I think it could be made much more interesting though - personally I'd have change it from the flat options of you can lock or you can't to a mechanism that reduced the number of targets you could lock.
So the chances or you removing one or two locks from you opponent would be high with the chance to removing more locks reducing so you could still lock people out completely, and it would be easier against those with the ability to lock fewer targets to begin with (either due to ships or skills). All the other factors would remain in play such as ECCM and you could tweak/boost ECM to make up for it. So on that basis you could argue for more depth but I don't think it could be argued to be a broken mechanic that warrents removal.
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