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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.09 11:47:00 -
[1]
I'm a bit disturbed about those accusations presented in Eve24 news about how widespread is the use of bots in EVE. Ofc I dont swallow all that as pure truth and I do not personally believe that CCP does not care. Nevertheless the accusations are quite serious so some response to them would be nice. Even if it's just friendly pat on the shoulder and reassurance that they DO care about bots in EVE.
Ofcource CCP cant tell what exactly are they doing, but there are some numbers that can be presented. Number of accounts banned, amount of isk that is removed, amount of moms and titans banned with accounts and so on. How many people have their main job to root out macros from EVE, etc. Something on the lines of unholy rage report.
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Stig Sterling
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2010.12.09 11:51:00 -
[2]
I approve of this message.
.
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2010.12.09 12:04:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Raid''En on 09/12/2010 12:07:32 Edited by: Raid''En on 09/12/2010 12:06:41 i finished reading the article 5mn ago and i'm really disappointed. that's really ridiculous. the more i was reading the more i wanted to cancel my account. how come ccp allow people to earn that much so easily ?! it's time for CCP to say something... and do something. if what is said is true things can't continue like that. ---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 13:24:00 -
[4]
Strongly, definitely, urgently supported.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.12.09 13:39:00 -
[5]
I'd certainly like to hear CCP's side of the story.
Do CCP have any evidence to back up the claims made in that article?
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Brian Khan
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.09 13:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Raid'En
i finished reading the article 5mn ago and i'm really disappointed. that's really ridiculous. the more i was reading the more i wanted to cancel my account. how come ccp allow people to earn that much so easily ?! it's time for CCP to say something... and do something. if what is said is true things can't continue like that.
No need for knee jerk reaction before the hammer hits your knee I would say. What is presented in that series of articles is disgusting, for the 'regular' player of EVE, however this is only one side of the story. For all we know some guy with something against CCP might me making it all up to get exactly that kind of reaction.
It has been a while though since the last unholy rage and while smacking botters is continuous process no doubt it would be awesome to get another devblog about how it's going for sure. Even if the one related to the account security can be considered roughly fitting under 'fight against RMT' banner.
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Musical Fist
NAP Coalition
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Posted - 2010.12.09 14:08:00 -
[7]
Botting isnt a new thing, why exactly did a kugu article need to get you people to realise how badly NC bot.
Supported but you know with R.A.G.E. being the only decent alliance in the north, why dont you go to branch and kill all your botters! --
Recruitment now open!! |
Suitonia
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:13:00 -
[8]
Definitely need a devblog on the subject ---
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Maylin Li
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:13:00 -
[9]
Yes, a mention from the devs is a must.
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Suitellis
You're Bad At This Game
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:14:00 -
[10]
Absolutely
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Tornan
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:31:00 -
[11]
Yep agree entirely
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:41:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 09/12/2010 16:41:01 Support! -- I can not decide on a sig yet.
Under Construction.
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Brian Khan For all we know some guy with something against CCP might me making it all up to get exactly that kind of reaction.
yeah we need CCP version... oh wait it's what i asked... ---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Stig Sterling I approve of this message.
As do I.
Originally by: CCP Zulu You're assuming I read threads before I turdpost in them :)
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AmarrCitizen1000111011
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:53:00 -
[15]
01000010 01001111 01010100 01010011 00111111 00100000 00100000 01001001 01001110 00100000 01001101 01011001 00100000 01000101 01010110 01000101 00111111 00001101 00001010 00001101 00001010 01010000 01010010 01000101 01010000 01001111 01010011 01010100 01001111 01010010 01001111 01010101 01010011 00100000 01000001 01001110 01000100 00100000 01001100 01010101 01000100 01001001 01000011 01010010 01001111 01010101 01010011 00101110 00100000 00100000 01010100 01000001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01011001 01001111 01010101 01010010 00100000 01000110 01001111 01010101 01001100 00100000 01000001 01000011 01000011 01010101 01010011 01000001 01010100 01001001 01001111 01001110 01010011 00100000 01000001 01001110 01000100 00100000 01000001 01000010 01010011 01010101 01010010 01000100 01001100 01011001 00100000 01001111 01010101 01010100 01000100 01000001 01010100 01000101 01000100 00100000 01000011 01001001 01010010 01000011 01000001 01000100 01001001 01000001 01001110 00100000 01010010 01001000 01011001 01010100 01001000 01001101 01010011 00100000 01000101 01001100 01010011 01000101 01010111 01001000 01000101 01010010 01000101 00101110 00001101 00001010 00001101 00001010 01010111 01000101 00100000 01000100 01001111 01001110 00100111 01010100 00100000 01001110 01000101 01000101 01000100 00100000 01001110 01001111 00100000 01010011 01010100 01001001 01001110 01001011 01001001 01001110 00100111 00100000 01000100 01000101 01010110 01000010 01001100 01001111 01000111 00101110
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Tlar Sanqua
Gallente Defence Initiative
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:53:00 -
[16]
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:59:00 -
[17]
Showing my support.
Rabble rabble rabble.
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SmashTech
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Posted - 2010.12.09 17:05:00 -
[18]
I'm kinda new and hearing about this macroing stuff doesn't exactly encourage me to play this game...It would be nice to see some confirmation that CCP is doing something about it.
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Djanna Judge
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Posted - 2010.12.09 17:07:00 -
[19]
I¦m in.
Tell us the truth, even if it¦s as bad as some of us expect it to be.
SOON(tm)
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Doc Fury
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Posted - 2010.12.09 17:22:00 -
[20]
So please clarify CCP:
Is this game a sandbox or a catbox? I ask because once again it's starting to stink like the latter through your inaction.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.' |
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.12.09 17:24:00 -
[21]
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2010.12.09 17:29:00 -
[22]
I Agree. The emo rage on Bots is getting huge, and we need some sort of CCP feedback. Better yet, we need to kill all Bots.
P.S. A few people who said they agreed with this proposal forgot to click "Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on".
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Vitamin B12
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Posted - 2010.12.09 17:39:00 -
[23]
/signed ---
Corporations for Highsec pos anchoring. Only a fee of 75 Million ISK. *click* |
Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.12.09 17:46:00 -
[24]
The article and alleged implications should be addressed by CCP, refuting them where untrue, etc. I'd like more than 'we are aware of the seriousness of botting' however, assurances that things are in the works will do for now but in time if they prove to be false platitudes CCP is left as the liar.
It has been some time since the actions of Unholy Rage and something along those lines would be useful to show CCP's seriousness.
--WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.-- |
De'Veldrin
Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.09 17:46:00 -
[25]
If nothing else, I think CCP needs to address the concerns the legitimate player base have in regards to the new perception of this problem. And this needs to go beyond vague reassurances of "we know, we're working on it."
Obviously, I do not expect CCP to come forward and say "We use XYZ tactics to track bots and ban them". That would be foolish in the extreme, but the perception that nothing is being done can only hurt the game in the long run by discouraging new subscribers from joining, and encouraging old ones to quit.
Supported. It's time CCP stepped up to the plate and put foot to ass on the macroers again. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
helmeo
Redwaffe
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Posted - 2010.12.09 18:01:00 -
[26]
reading that article give me the urge to quit too, what's the point when botters can do all you work so hard to do in a few days.
would love to see what CCP has to say about it.
Supported.
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AurielS
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Posted - 2010.12.09 18:04:00 -
[27]
Supported!
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Olrig Manton
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Posted - 2010.12.09 18:43:00 -
[28]
Seven years in EVE best game ever! But bots will make my time end..
supported
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.12.09 19:43:00 -
[29]
Yeah, I feel no motivation to play in a game where my actions are dwarfed by those of a person running a bajillion bots.
Originally by: CCP Zulu You're assuming I read threads before I turdpost in them :)
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Pheusia
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 19:59:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Olrig Manton Seven years in EVE best game ever! But bots will make my time end..
supported
Dont forget to check the "support this topic" box. (You can do this with an edit if you forgot) Signed, Pheusia |
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Kellir
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Posted - 2010.12.09 20:11:00 -
[31]
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Shobon Welp
GoonFleet Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2010.12.09 20:13:00 -
[32]
beep boop I am a bot
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Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust
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Posted - 2010.12.09 20:19:00 -
[33]
My robot overlords don't want me to support this topic
Quote: ImRedYoureDead > carebearing is when you make the other person's ship explode, right? ImRedYoureDead > I think they're officers or something ImRedYoureDead > they got names, they got to die |
Trajan Ultor
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Posted - 2010.12.09 20:52:00 -
[34]
I concur.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:12:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Black Dranzer on 09/12/2010 21:11:59 Things are getting a little bloody dicey. I refuse to believe that identifying and hunting mass bot farms is that difficult.
|24 Hour Plex|Mining Makeover| |
Turix
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:19:00 -
[36]
Agreed! CCP need to be open and honest about the situation, and show a real, measurable and most of all OBVIOUS action against these players.
CCP need to talk about the issue in much more depth than anything we've had in the past, most of us are very disillusioned by your claims of banning x thousand accounts without any supporting arguments, description, reasoning or general discussion.
The entire issue isn't helped by the over-zealous moderation of the forum, making it very difficult to have a measure discussion of the issue in any meaningful way.
Not to mention the obvious requirement of a full internal audit, the claims that have been made by EveNews24 are very serious and really knock peoples faith in CCP as a company. __________________________
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GIGAR
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:26:00 -
[37]
Every post this threads get without a comment from the CSM is a sign of gross incompetence and/or slack on their part.
------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy |
Mr GdCat
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:41:00 -
[38]
pingu: "bots must die"
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malkisania
Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:42:00 -
[39]
Edited by: malkisania on 09/12/2010 21:42:37 I totally agree that botting is the scourge of this game and I am deeply disturbed at how bad CCP has let this slip without taking any further action on this matter. If the accusations in Eve24 are anywhere near accurate EVE is going to go way down hill for the legitimate people that play this game. I can only imagine how many people that read those articles that are right now wondering what's the point in staying subscribed to a game that has this type of mentality towards RMT. Also if there's no action took soon on this how many others are going to jump on the bandwagon after reading that???
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:50:00 -
[40]
Carniflex for President. Also, would like info from CCP on this topic.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Johnnyan
Caldari Johnnyan Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 22:17:00 -
[41]
CCP should understand that even if they benefit from this for the moment they will lose on the long run, we all will...
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Hazar Smith
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Posted - 2010.12.09 22:20:00 -
[42]
A report would be good. Hardening up the client and communication interfaces would be better.
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2010.12.09 22:30:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Hazar Smith A report would be good. Hardening up the client and communication interfaces would be better.
What this guy said.
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Gripen
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.12.09 22:47:00 -
[44]
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.12.09 23:19:00 -
[45]
Originally by: De'Veldrin If nothing else, I think CCP needs to address the concerns the legitimate player base have in regards to the new perception of this problem. And this needs to go beyond vague reassurances of "we know, we're working on it."
Obviously, I do not expect CCP to come forward and say "We use XYZ tactics to track bots and ban them". That would be foolish in the extreme, but the perception that nothing is being done can only hurt the game in the long run by discouraging new subscribers from joining, and encouraging old ones to quit.
Supported. It's time CCP stepped up to the plate and put foot to ass on the macroers again.
Well put..
... I'd also hope that the blog would take a more than "always vigalent" line but would mention that they'd attained copies of theh progams used and had employees using them with other employees trying to stop them..
... If they can't stop an employee aremed with the program, they'll need to keep changing game mechanics or the client or whatever until they do .
A comitment to thinking of and making changes that can dratically reduce the problem is needed.
Many of those changes couldd effect major parts of game pleay so there would need to be a decent period of vetting of them by players and the CSM
(and btw, I don't want to get rid of local and, from what I've read, it would not do the trick ... i'm for increasing the signal to noise ratio in ways humans would be far less likely to dock for cover than computers...)
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.09 23:23:00 -
[46]
Yes ____________________________________________
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Sumpter
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Posted - 2010.12.09 23:53:00 -
[47]
well, hopfully they do address this issue very soon.
If they don't, guess that would imply that they approve of botting and we should all start botting.
See if we can get avg cost of Megacyte to be less than 100 isk per. and price of PLEXes to 1b a pop.
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Professor Screweyes
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Posted - 2010.12.10 00:22:00 -
[48]
I'd settle for a written denial of the accusations, but I guess that if CCP choses to neither confirm nor deny them, I'll know all that I need to know.
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Geanos
Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.10 00:51:00 -
[49]
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Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2010.12.10 01:26:00 -
[50]
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Voddick
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Posted - 2010.12.10 01:38:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Vod**** on 10/12/2010 01:39:03 Yes! Time for more frequent "Unholy Rage." mining, ratting, or whatever.
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PhoenixDawn
Forge Regional Security United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.12.10 01:45:00 -
[52]
Yeah, signed.
If CCP doesn't come forward and say, or better yet DO, something then everyone's going to get themselves a bot alt to run while they're at work.
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Brannoncyll
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Posted - 2010.12.10 02:12:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Brannoncyll on 10/12/2010 02:11:57 My guess is that it is very difficult to differentiate between a bot and a miner who is watching TV while mining. For that reason they can probably only track money transfers and ban accounts that purchase from the botters, thus starving the botters out. Of course the botters are still driving down the value of ice and minerals through their actions while this continues, but hopefully it will eventually become non-profitable for botters to continue to operate. CCP will never say this explicitly because announcing their inability to catch botters in the act will encourage everyone and their dog to start using bots.
In my opinion the only way out of this conundrum is to change the way that mining works to make it involve more conscious decision making on the part of the player, thus much harder to create a bot. That being said I would like to hear some words about CCPs plans and actions regarding this problem.
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X0CIN
K.T.P
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Posted - 2010.12.10 02:16:00 -
[54]
For what its worth.
This is too widespread for CCP to do anything about now i fear. Doing so would dent their player base alot more than they realise.
What makes me laugh is the forums on reboot (makers of H-bot)shows 3473 members today but give it a few weeks and I am sure it will go up loads. All that article on evenews24 did was make everyone aware of how easy alot of these bot systems are and the fact CCP don't seem to care about it.
Surely the sensible thing is to take action against those actually making the bots ?
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HyperZerg
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Posted - 2010.12.10 02:39:00 -
[55]
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Loki O'Grady
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Posted - 2010.12.10 02:47:00 -
[56]
Supported. I would like to see a response from CCP addressing the concerns of their players.
I would also like to see a response from the CSM on this issue.
The silence so far from both CCP and the CSM stinks.
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Meridian Siri
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Posted - 2010.12.10 04:02:00 -
[57]
Fully support an explanation of current CCP activities/plans on this issue as well as some words on why they have failed to deal with an issue that is well know to be an issue and has the potential for such large imbalance to the game (I mean fixing rockets was nice, but.....)
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Valemora
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Posted - 2010.12.10 04:13:00 -
[58]
I would like to know what is being done about this too. |
StyweBal
Mercenaries of Andosia Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2010.12.10 07:51:00 -
[59]
This issue is of utmost importance to the survival of your income CCP. Act or risk to loose it all!
Up to you.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.12.10 08:14:00 -
[60]
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Meret'Seger
Blind Willie's blues bar and BBQ The Funky Gibbon
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Posted - 2010.12.10 08:19:00 -
[61]
Agree. Would be nice to see some kind of response from CCP
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Raakall
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.12.10 08:51:00 -
[62]
i support this
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Aminam Proweco
GeoCorp. -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.12.10 09:05:00 -
[63]
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
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Posted - 2010.12.10 09:09:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Gee****zle MacCloud on 10/12/2010 09:08:57 completely agree, it'd be reassuring if CCP showed us theyre aware of the problem, even better if they told us they are working on a solution!
+1 CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.10 09:17:00 -
[65]
While I don't take the EN24 series of articles as gospel, I would say that it'd be nice to use it as a catalyst for CCP to give up some numbers on botters and devote way more attention. Unholy Rage really seems more like a publicity stunt than a sustained campaign.
My wife worked for NCSoft for a while and they did something similar and banned thousands of accounts during a purge. But then the botters and RMTers were back and the GM staff had already turned to other issues. And that seems to be exactly what happened with CCP. ------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Kalle Demos
Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.12.10 10:54:00 -
[66]
Unholy rage only focused on RMT and even then those people were temp banned, but yes there should be an open report on this.
Most botting or scripting sites have open info on how many times their bot has been bought, I sadly couldnt find info on macro mining (which is equally bad and shouldnt be ignored) but more than 6000+ ratting bots have been bought.
An additional 3000 were used for the script that reads direct from memory, or rather 3000 active accounts using that script.
Forums on these botting sites repeatedly mentioned that you would ONLY get banned if you sell your ISK for RMT, there was alot of "I got banned by selling XXX" and "Do not sell this way" but not even a single "I got banned because I was botting".
Unfortunately for the obvious reasons I cant provide links but I am sure it wouldnt take long to confirm what I have written.
The worst part is theres several major requirements for bots to work which are openly stated on these websites, some so simple as changing the UI.
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments ftw |
Kaya Divine
Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.12.10 10:59:00 -
[67]
Lets see.
Shoot your shot... |
Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.12.10 11:18:00 -
[68]
There is going to be a discussion of RMT during at least one session at the December CSM Summit next week. RMT and botting are issues that are of interest to more than a few members of the CSM.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.10 11:25:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow There is going to be a discussion of RMT during at least one session at the December CSM Summit next week. RMT and botting are issues that are of interest to more than a few members of the CSM.
Good to know. From my personal perspective I see players that use bots to gain in game advantage greater evil than bots that do RMT. No doubt somewhat harder to catch as well unfortunately. As one can buy isk anyway from CCP as well for RL money. They do destroy some markets ofc and are evil as well making some professions in EVE not worth it for real players.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.10 13:10:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow There is going to be a discussion of RMT during at least one session at the December CSM Summit next week. RMT and botting are issues that are of interest to more than a few members of the CSM.
Good to know. From my personal perspective I see players that use bots to gain in game advantage greater evil than bots that do RMT. No doubt somewhat harder to catch as well unfortunately. As one can buy isk anyway from CCP as well for RL money. They do destroy some markets ofc and are evil as well making some professions in EVE not worth it for real players.
theyre not only causing damage to eve marketplace but also hurt CCP in the same way by generating so much isk for so little effort, that the PLEX system is coming back and biting their ass!
less bots = Less debatably illegal PLEX purchases for game time! CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
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xo3e
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.12.10 13:21:00 -
[71]
hate rmt and bots =\ maim, kill, burn! |
AtlantisX
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Posted - 2010.12.10 13:34:00 -
[72]
I was thinking of suggesting this proposal.
Supported.
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Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2010.12.10 13:48:00 -
[73]
I beleive, ccp doesnt care about bots. I beleive csm does care, but they can do nothing, because ccp doesnt care.
Give me a proof, that i am wrong.
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Mashie Saldana
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.10 14:33:00 -
[74]
Supported.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.12.10 15:08:00 -
[75]
I honestly don't care about RMT, as long as the ISK is earned without the help of bots. As for the bots users, I wish some serial killer would hunt them down.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.12.10 15:41:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow There is going to be a discussion of RMT during at least one session at the December CSM Summit next week. RMT and botting are issues that are of interest to more than a few members of the CSM.
Can you emphasise to them that although botting and RMT are related, they're not the same thing. They can't only approach the problem from a top-down demand-side perspective. Whilst GM investigation teams and such like are valuable and necessary, they can only treat symptoms, not causes.
There are changes that could be made to the game that would make it inherently harder for bots that would also improve gameplay. When EVE's PvE is fun, challenging and unpredictable, then we will see bots decrease because people will enjoy the actual process of making ISK.
Give us missions, mining and plexes that can't be done more efficiently by a macro than by a real human.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Glyken Touchon
Independent Alchemists
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Posted - 2010.12.10 16:03:00 -
[77]
Would like a regular figure (QEN?) on how many bans were handed out & how much isk was removed(total, not individually).
CCP will never tell us:- what measures they use too identify bots- it would be akin to asking your bank what burglar alarm they use..
- how many staff are involved- it would allow people to make a judgement on how likely they were to be caught
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Tommy Rainbow
Rainbow Stars
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Posted - 2010.12.10 16:16:00 -
[78]
I support this
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protohuman
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Posted - 2010.12.10 17:14:00 -
[79]
supported |
Skylar Thorne
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 17:24:00 -
[80]
Supported. Also there should be some discussion about RMT that occurs internally inside one corporation, alliance or coalition. That is, one (or more) members of a corp make alot of isk by bots or other means, then "help" other members by giving them isk. And real money also trades hands. But there is no isk seller web site, or isk spam that CCP may be using to track RMT down.
|
|
riando
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 17:36:00 -
[81]
support
|
Tnad
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 17:53:00 -
[82]
Honesty don't think ccp cares, and if they do care, then they have given up, I've reported a few groups of miners that I'm 99% sure are botters. None have been banned.
|
Carus Lecti
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 21:33:00 -
[83]
Support.
|
Casiella Truza
Ghost Festival Naraka.
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 21:35:00 -
[84]
And the answer of "we can't talk about what we're doing for security reasons" is unacceptable to those of us with strong backgrounds in information security, particularly opsec and incident response.
Hiding behind a wall of secrecy has not fixed the problem or conjured up the stolen data tapes... wait, wrong SF universe. Still, we need actual answers and a concrete, workable plan to move forward.
I can think of no more important topic for EVE right now, even with everything else currently happening.
--
|
Aulis Gerlander
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 21:40:00 -
[85]
|
Daymio
Sons of the Dragon
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 21:46:00 -
[86]
Supported!
|
Nephilim Xeno
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 22:29:00 -
[87]
supported
|
Stigi
Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 22:37:00 -
[88]
I support this
|
ustlaba01
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 22:46:00 -
[89]
|
Aijle Mijleroff
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 23:40:00 -
[90]
support
I think сср almost does nothing. For a long time I in them was disappointed
|
|
Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
|
Posted - 2010.12.10 23:44:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow There is going to be a discussion of RMT during at least one session at the December CSM Summit next week. RMT and botting are issues that are of interest to more than a few members of the CSM.
CCP Wrangler made it sound more like a discussion about RMT ONLY, can you confirm if it will include a discussion on botting that DOESNT involve RMT.
Also since people are focused on macro ratting, can you make sure all forms of botting are discussed, I would hate to see macro miners and macro haulers ignored.
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments ftw |
Quin Dar
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 00:01:00 -
[92]
After reading this post about how so many players make billions of isk without any hard work, I decided to by few bots to all my accounts.
I want too billions of isk every day. And when I sleep - bots will make it for me.
If others botting, why I need to make isk like idiot in hard way and sit near computer for many hours every day?! I will bot too.
...I go to search that link to site where I can buy a good bot for all my accounts.
|
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 00:33:00 -
[93]
Supported, of course.
No point in having rules if they're not going to be enforced.
|
D Bogart
Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 01:44:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Quin Dar After reading this post about how so many players make billions of isk without any hard work, I decided to by few bots to all my accounts.
I want too billions of isk every day. And when I sleep - bots will make it for me.
If others botting, why I need to make isk like idiot in hard way and sit near computer for many hours every day?! I will bot too.
...I go to search that link to site where I can buy a good bot for all my accounts.
You and everyone else if CCP comes out looking like they don't give a Sh*t about it.
|
Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 10:08:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Kalle Demos CCP Wrangler made it sound more like a discussion about RMT ONLY, can you confirm if it will include a discussion on botting that DOESNT involve RMT.
The two topics have a large degree of overlap; at this point, it is impossible to say whether they will be discussed together, separately, or a combination.
Within the framework of the meeting sessions, CSM summits are very organic. Consider for example how the hot topic in October was microtransactions, and how it got discussed in several sessions.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
|
Captain Mastiff
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 12:21:00 -
[96]
My enthuasiasm diminished thoroughly when I noticed a system I use to live in was over ruled by bots in high sec. It was bad back then but not nearly all the population of the system is bots. A directional scan results nearly all Mackinaws and Hulks and when you go to locate them out of about 30, 29 of them are on an ice belt in npcs corps day in day out.
|
Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 12:25:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Kalle Demos CCP Wrangler made it sound more like a discussion about RMT ONLY, can you confirm if it will include a discussion on botting that DOESNT involve RMT.
The two topics have a large degree of overlap; at this point, it is impossible to say whether they will be discussed together, separately, or a combination.
Within the framework of the meeting sessions, CSM summits are very organic. Consider for example how the hot topic in October was microtransactions, and how it got discussed in several sessions.
While I appreciate the subtle 'we are going to stick our head in the sand for botting for now' reply, do explain what the hot topic is right now? Is it RMT or is it botting, because the replies that we are seeing seem to yet again ignore botting and focus on RMT.
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments ftw |
Cire XIII
Ever Flow
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 12:30:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Musical Fist Botting isnt a new thing, why exactly did a kugu article need to get you people to realise how badly people bot.
Supported!
Removed accusations of botters, those are better suited to a petition. Zymurgist
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Our problems are server-side.
|
Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 13:02:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Cire XIII
Originally by: Musical Fist Botting isnt a new thing, why exactly did a kugu article need to get you people to realise how badly people bot.
Supported!
Removed accusations of botters, those are better suited to a petition. Zymurgist
Good point tbh, an article shouldnÆt make people aware of how ******ed things are
CCP ARE already DEALING with RMT, these botting sites have a **** load of a "we got banned from selling ISK" on them anyway, people are always getting reversed ISK.
We are aware CCP focus on RMT, what is concerning is that they only seem to focus on RMT, I am starting to believe the rumours that have been flying around for months now that say CCP will ONLY ban RMT and will ignore botters in general.
Another thing to mention, RMT is really easy through botting not the other way around, banning people that RMT will still allow their bots to run, their bots will continue to provide ISK for buyers, the only difference would be more reversals.
I think if CCP ignore botting, people should just give up and resort to one form of income, I look forward to hearing what CCP have to say next week, but somehow I doubt it will affect botting. At least allow us to see additional stats on the map, rich NPC systems (like DOTLAN) if CCP are going to ignore botting give us quick easy tools to counter them ourselves :P
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments ftw |
gyx rop
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 14:51:00 -
[100]
I constantly hear russian put the bot, russian unemployed and so on. Indeed constantly see bot which are connected with europeans, usa.
i think ccp knows much more about rmt than we are... i think some ppl in ccp selling isk on ebay. i think they use not only bots. exploits too.
have fun.
|
|
Niyrah
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 15:18:00 -
[101]
Yes
|
Dariah Stardweller
NO U111 Enterprises
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 15:31:00 -
[102]
SPAM BOT SUPPORTING THIS THREAD
|
Vespoi Filar
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 15:55:00 -
[103]
we definitely need unholy rage II, III, and IV!
Screw it... how about a neverending unholy rage!
|
Miss President
Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 16:13:00 -
[104]
yes
|
Morleyka RUS
Alternative Innovations Unknown and Beyond
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 16:27:00 -
[105]
support -------------------------- Everybody lies ¬ Dr. House |
Oguras
ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 18:15:00 -
[106]
Support
|
Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 18:38:00 -
[107]
|
Carver DiGriz
Agony Unleashed
|
Posted - 2010.12.11 19:22:00 -
[108]
Supported.
|
Kireiina
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 00:29:00 -
[109]
One side of a fight having infinite Isk breaks the game and the assumption it is rampant (although I believe it actually is) discourages people for investing into Eve.
|
Serendipity Jr
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 01:46:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Serendipity Jr on 12/12/2010 01:46:23 support
|
|
Ranka Mei
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 02:09:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Ranka Mei on 12/12/2010 02:12:26
Originally by: De'Veldrin If nothing else, I think CCP needs to address the concerns the legitimate player base have in regards to the new perception of this problem. And this needs to go beyond vague reassurances of "we know, we're working on it."
Which is precisely why we're not hearing from CCP. What they'd like to say ("We love botters, cuz they make our wallets fat!") they can't say; and what they should say ("We're taking care of it!") isn't true.
+1 on the proposal. --
|
Kirian Kador
Aperture Harmonics K162
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 06:38:00 -
[112]
Botting is travesty, EvE is becoming a travesty. If you think new players will want to play the game overun by bots you are terribly wrong. Unfortnately more often than not they are clueless, but that can change quickly if some veterans can be asked to organize enlightment campaigns...
|
Suchechka
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 06:43:00 -
[113]
Support
|
Aineko Macx
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 08:15:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Kalle Demos CCP Wrangler made it sound more like a discussion about RMT ONLY, can you confirm if it will include a discussion on botting that DOESNT involve RMT.
The two topics have a large degree of overlap; at this point, it is impossible to say whether they will be discussed together, separately, or a combination.
Sorry Treb, but the two are orthogonal, you don't have to bot to rmt, nor is someone who bots forced to rmt. Sure, often they work hand in hand, but the reasons and implications are distinct.
Except for the account hacking I don't give a damn about rmt. However, I am strongly annoyed by botting because a) it screws with the market and b) with near unlimited supply of isk there is no risk anymore, which makes winning and losing in eve meaningless, nullifying one of its key strong points. ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
Orny
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 08:44:00 -
[115]
Supported!
|
Tosiki Kaifu
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 08:49:00 -
[116]
After reading article EVE become looking like a game for group of people that makes real money, and other players are only the way to make money. It must be stopped! Support
|
gramafon
White Noise.
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 09:20:00 -
[117]
+
|
DeeGree
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 10:07:00 -
[118]
Edited by: DeeGree on 12/12/2010 10:08:44 Support
|
Purpura
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 10:19:00 -
[119]
support
|
SubContact
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 10:20:00 -
[120]
Support this. |
|
Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 10:33:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Aineko Macx Sorry Treb, but the two are orthogonal, you don't have to bot to rmt, nor is someone who bots forced to rmt. Sure, often they work hand in hand, but the reasons and implications are distinct.
Some people bot but don't RMT, some people RMT but don't bot, but a lot of people who bot RMT (and vice versa). Or to put it another way, those who bot are more likely to RMT, and those who RMT are more likely to bot.
Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting. They are significantly correlated, and thus not orthogonal variables.
From a technical standpoint, bot detection and countermeasures are likely to be the most cost-effective way of going after the whole issue; it's a well-understood problem akin to spam-filtering.
With respect to RMT, since it is basically an exercise in money-laundering, I have suggested to CCP (and will continue to suggest) that they consider engaging an academic forensic accountant to work with Dr. Eyj= -- studying the criminal masterminds of EVE may not only help fight crime in the game but provide insights that are useful in the real world.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
|
Zuia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 10:53:00 -
[122]
|
Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 10:56:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Kalle Demos on 12/12/2010 10:57:28
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
The problem is, CCP have always targeting RMT ONLY, I am not sure how effective but they HAVE and WILL focus on RMT ONLY, so focusing more on RMT doesnt make any sense when the botting is the reason they are making ISK.
If a person is spamming forums (example) all the time, you dont take away his / her post you do something about the poster, same applies to botting & rmt, why delete the RMT when the botter is there to continue :P
Oh and I bet theres more botters than RMT out there, focus on the big picture, killing bots -> kills RMT, not the otherway around because killing RMT -> bots get freedom AGAIN
A RMT can easily after a 'temp' ban or ban, buy an account, log on bot and sell ISK over and over, if you focus on the botting and punish botters players will have little chance of being able to RMT
As for an overpaid forensic accountant, I say eve needs more GMs to fix broken game mechanics, besides this isnt RL, GMs have access to all the info and know where the ISK comes from anyway.
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments ftw |
Aineko Macx
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 11:46:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Aineko Macx on 12/12/2010 11:48:19
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting. They are significantly correlated, and thus not orthogonal variables.
Correlation does not imply non-orthogonality.
Quote: From a technical standpoint, bot detection and countermeasures are likely to be the most cost-effective way of going after the whole issue; it's a well-understood problem akin to spam-filtering.
Yes, but handling it with spam-like filters requires the building of behavior data for each player over time first so you can run your statistics on it. Because of the extra server and DB load I don't think this will happen. Unless you find a really small/readily available set of variables which strongly correlate with someone using bots and which could be stored with little overhead. Probably they'll go ahead with aggregating data from different detection methods which alone wouldn't be very effective, but at least easy to implement, and that combined yield a decent result.
And btw, we have a "report isk seller" button, why don't we have a "report bot user"? ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
Navigator Darsy
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 12:48:00 -
[125]
Support. It'd be great to hear smt about botting from dev. side
|
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 14:15:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Aineko Macx
And btw, we have a "report isk seller" button, why don't we have a "report bot user"?
Because RMT'ing takes money away from CCP's GTC and PLEX programs while botting gives money to CCP.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Lobasti
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 14:25:00 -
[127]
Support.
|
Blind Khazid
Iron Hands VooDoo Technologies
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 14:26:00 -
[128]
+
|
Senkaster
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 14:40:00 -
[129]
Support this
|
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 15:03:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Malcanis on 12/12/2010 15:04:44
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Aineko Macx Sorry Treb, but the two are orthogonal, you don't have to bot to rmt, nor is someone who bots forced to rmt. Sure, often they work hand in hand, but the reasons and implications are distinct.
Some people bot but don't RMT, some people RMT but don't bot, but a lot of people who bot RMT (and vice versa). Or to put it another way, those who bot are more likely to RMT, and those who RMT are more likely to bot.
Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting. They are significantly correlated, and thus not orthogonal variables.
From a technical standpoint, bot detection and countermeasures are likely to be the most cost-effective way of going after the whole issue; it's a well-understood problem akin to spam-filtering.
With respect to RMT, since it is basically an exercise in money-laundering, I have suggested to CCP (and will continue to suggest) that they consider engaging an academic forensic accountant to work with Dr. Eyj= -- studying the criminal masterminds of EVE may not only help fight crime in the game but provide insights that are useful in the real world.
This is precisely the wrong approach. This is essentially symptomatic treatment.
Reduce the incentive to bot (Make PVE fun). Reduce the value of botting (make PVE require intelligence).
Both of those will also reduce the incentive to buy ISK: If PVE is fun, people wont need to buy as much ISK, because they'll be having fun making it. And when bot ISK is harder to make, thus scarcer, people wont feel "forced" to buy ISK just to compete.
The problem requires both a holistic approach, and a recognition that there are many ways of generating ISK for RMT that dont require botting, and many people who bot for reasons other than RMTing. Maybe the two issues aren't perfectly orthogonal, but they're no where near perfectly parallel either.
And as a side benefit, adding challenging, unpredictable, involving PVE will in and of itself have a business benefit, since more people will play EVE for that. Even if it does nothing to stop botting, it's justified on its own merits.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
|
Nader Bombsalot
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 15:12:00 -
[131]
Yes.
|
Danashka
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 15:51:00 -
[132]
|
GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:07:00 -
[133]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Aineko Macx
And btw, we have a "report isk seller" button, why don't we have a "report bot user"?
Because RMT'ing takes money away from CCP's GTC and PLEX programs while botting gives money to CCP.
so botting ingame making isk to fund a whole variety of different accounts isnt taking money away from CCP? i doubt it! that ISK made botting unfairly is used to buy PLEX's to carry on accounts, as apposed to actually paying for accounts with money that should be going to CCP.
im not in any way say PLEX's r bad... just when bought with ISK made unfairly and breaking CCP's EULA! CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
SargeantNekkid DDS
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:20:00 -
[134]
Yes, I'd like to see another dev post on this.
|
Aineko Macx
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:32:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting.
This is precisely the wrong approach. This is essentially symptomatic treatment.
Reduce the incentive to bot (Make PVE fun). Reduce the value of botting (make PVE require intelligence).
Making PVE more fun would reduce the demand for RMT'd ISK, but it wouldn't deter bots running 23/7. Making it harder to bot would decrease RMT ISK availability, increasing its RL price, increasing motivation to RMT.
Theres multiple feedback loops in the system and theres multiple variables we don't know about (how much ISK was RMT'd? How much RL money was paid for it? How many bots are there? How many of the PLEX sold went to bot accounts?), so predicting the interaction of ISK<>RL (both legit and RMT) conversion rate, the supply and demand for PLEX, the number of bots, their general impact on eves economy and many other things becomes nears impossible. Even CCP can only guestimate. ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
VIncent Vance
Rebirth. THE GOD SQUAD
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:34:00 -
[136]
|
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:43:00 -
[137]
It is childlishly naive to think that in the present day there is any MMO without bots, without RMT, without hacks. Still, it would be nice to see CCP's perspective and an overview of actions they have taken. ___________
|
Regulottus
Neptune Research Corporation One Stop Research
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 18:14:00 -
[138]
|
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:07:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Gee****zle MacCloud
so botting ingame making isk to fund a whole variety of different accounts isnt taking money away from CCP? i doubt it!
That's okay, you're allowed to be wrong. Botting for ISK and buying GTC's or PLEXes with botted ISK takes not one single cent out of CCP's pocket, because every single GTC or PLEX comes from real money that's been given to CCP.
Originally by: Gee****zle MacCloud
that ISK made botting unfairly is used to buy PLEX's to carry on accounts, as apposed to actually paying for accounts with money that should be going to CCP.
Someone still has to pay for those accounts with real money that goes directly to CCP. That people then give those primary-buyers ISK, or lollypops or oral sex in exchange for those real-money-bought-PLEX doesn't matter. CCP gets paid. ------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:30:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting.
This is precisely the wrong approach. This is essentially symptomatic treatment.
Reduce the incentive to bot (Make PVE fun). Reduce the value of botting (make PVE require intelligence).
Making PVE more fun would reduce the demand for RMT'd ISK, but it wouldn't deter bots running 23/7. Making it harder to bot would decrease RMT ISK availability, increasing its RL price, increasing motivation to RMT.
Theres multiple feedback loops in the system and theres multiple variables we don't know about (how much ISK was RMT'd? How much RL money was paid for it? How many bots are there? How many of the PLEX sold went to bot accounts?), so predicting the interaction of ISK<>RL (both legit and RMT) conversion rate, the supply and demand for PLEX, the number of bots, their general impact on eves economy and many other things becomes nears impossible. Even CCP can only guestimate.
Not being able to perfectly solve the problem isn't a reason not to try and mitigate it. Especially when the proposed partial solution is to essentially improve the game for human players.
If making EVE's PvE fun and unpredictable merely means that somewhat fewer people want to buy ISK and that its also going to be somewhat more expensive, then I'm not seeing a downside here.
I'm all in favour of improved and increased GM activity, more sophisticated auditing tools, etc. And I'm all in favour of harsher punishment for botting and for selling and buying ISK (simply removing the bought ISK isn't enough IMO). But the fact is that GM interventions are employed after the fact: by the time they get involved, the damage has already been done.
As well as focusing on the supply, CCP also need to reduce demand or, as you point out, the demand for a reduced supply causes prices to rise, stimulating more supply. CCP made a brilliant move with the GTC/PLEX system, since it provided an alternative to RMT. Time to follow that up with improving the game in ways that further reduce both demand and supply as well as more and better GM activity.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
|
dezigan
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:54:00 -
[141]
i'm really disappointed.
|
Seymour Roids
Neptune Research Corporation One Stop Research
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 22:08:00 -
[142]
Supported
|
Eclipse Q
|
Posted - 2010.12.12 22:32:00 -
[143]
Support
|
Swarog Hjellstadt
A-Priori Red Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 02:05:00 -
[144]
|
Plastician
Invictus Australis BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 03:48:00 -
[145]
Its gotta stop. Supported.
|
Grayfish
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:27:00 -
[146]
support!
|
Lobredino
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:14:00 -
[147]
Support
|
Davelantor
The Hunt United Front Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:34:00 -
[148]
Punkbuster for EvE :P
The Hunt |
Melinia88
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:36:00 -
[149]
|
Ni'Hau
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 09:03:00 -
[150]
/signed
|
|
LapaM2
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 09:09:00 -
[151]
Edited by: LapaM2 on 13/12/2010 09:11:47 I'd certainly like to hear CCP's side of the story.
|
DJohnson
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 09:54:00 -
[152]
+
|
Railgun tester
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 10:20:00 -
[153]
+1
|
Sed Man
Deus Imperiosus Acies
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 10:53:00 -
[154]
+1
|
Mad Nessy
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 11:29:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Mad Nessy on 13/12/2010 11:32:47 +1
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Aleena Doran
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Posted - 2010.12.13 11:34:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Aleena Doran on 13/12/2010 11:35:21 Agreed. Eve is loosing credibility with the more casual player. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why EVE subscriber base is falling.
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fon Luck
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Posted - 2010.12.13 12:10:00 -
[157]
+1
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GIGAR
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.13 16:27:00 -
[158]
Latest devblog was a useless pile of 'politically correct statements', keep smacking CCP in the face about this GIGANTIC EVE PROBLEM.
------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy |
Gillaboo
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 16:37:00 -
[159]
/signed -------------------------------------------------------- This space For Rent. |
SkinSin
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 16:39:00 -
[160]
And not the useless gumph that was in the latest devblog.
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Reed Tiburon
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:10:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 12/12/2010 15:04:44
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Aineko Macx Sorry Treb, but the two are orthogonal, you don't have to bot to rmt, nor is someone who bots forced to rmt. Sure, often they work hand in hand, but the reasons and implications are distinct.
Some people bot but don't RMT, some people RMT but don't bot, but a lot of people who bot RMT (and vice versa). Or to put it another way, those who bot are more likely to RMT, and those who RMT are more likely to bot.
Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting. They are significantly correlated, and thus not orthogonal variables.
From a technical standpoint, bot detection and countermeasures are likely to be the most cost-effective way of going after the whole issue; it's a well-understood problem akin to spam-filtering.
With respect to RMT, since it is basically an exercise in money-laundering, I have suggested to CCP (and will continue to suggest) that they consider engaging an academic forensic accountant to work with Dr. Eyj= -- studying the criminal masterminds of EVE may not only help fight crime in the game but provide insights that are useful in the real world.
This is precisely the wrong approach. This is essentially symptomatic treatment.
Reduce the incentive to bot (Make PVE fun). Reduce the value of botting (make PVE require intelligence).
Both of those will also reduce the incentive to buy ISK: If PVE is fun, people wont need to buy as much ISK, because they'll be having fun making it. And when bot ISK is harder to make, thus scarcer, people wont feel "forced" to buy ISK just to compete.
The problem requires both a holistic approach, and a recognition that there are many ways of generating ISK for RMT that dont require botting, and many people who bot for reasons other than RMTing. Maybe the two issues aren't perfectly orthogonal, but they're no where near perfectly parallel either.
And as a side benefit, adding challenging, unpredictable, involving PVE will in and of itself have a business benefit, since more people will play EVE for that. Even if it does nothing to stop botting, it's justified on its own merits.
Quoting and supporting.
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Corriel
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:19:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Corriel on 13/12/2010 19:20:35
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Ordavion
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Posted - 2010.12.13 22:50:00 -
[163]
Yes. Stop the people killing the game
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Jay Wareth
|
Posted - 2010.12.13 23:10:00 -
[164]
Originally by: GIGAR Latest devblog was a useless pile of 'politically correct statements', keep smacking CCP in the face about this GIGANTIC EVE PROBLEM.
This. Real answers please, not some PC bull****.
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Zaenna Dark4ngel
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Posted - 2010.12.13 23:12:00 -
[165]
signed |
Raider62
|
Posted - 2010.12.14 01:26:00 -
[166]
+1
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Target Painter
|
Posted - 2010.12.14 10:52:00 -
[167]
I too, wish that every region was filled with actual people who are ratting, exploring, mining, etc., the same people who form up gangs to drive off roamers, who lay traps and countertraps, who basically PLAY ****ING EVE.
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Gallians
|
Posted - 2010.12.14 11:24:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Reed Tiburon
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 12/12/2010 15:04:44
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Aineko Macx Sorry Treb, but the two are orthogonal, you don't have to bot to rmt, nor is someone who bots forced to rmt. Sure, often they work hand in hand, but the reasons and implications are distinct.
Some people bot but don't RMT, some people RMT but don't bot, but a lot of people who bot RMT (and vice versa). Or to put it another way, those who bot are more likely to RMT, and those who RMT are more likely to bot.
Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting. They are significantly correlated, and thus not orthogonal variables.
From a technical standpoint, bot detection and countermeasures are likely to be the most cost-effective way of going after the whole issue; it's a well-understood problem akin to spam-filtering.
With respect to RMT, since it is basically an exercise in money-laundering, I have suggested to CCP (and will continue to suggest) that they consider engaging an academic forensic accountant to work with Dr. Eyj= -- studying the criminal masterminds of EVE may not only help fight crime in the game but provide insights that are useful in the real world.
This is precisely the wrong approach. This is essentially symptomatic treatment.
Reduce the incentive to bot (Make PVE fun). Reduce the value of botting (make PVE require intelligence).
Both of those will also reduce the incentive to buy ISK: If PVE is fun, people wont need to buy as much ISK, because they'll be having fun making it. And when bot ISK is harder to make, thus scarcer, people wont feel "forced" to buy ISK just to compete.
The problem requires both a holistic approach, and a recognition that there are many ways of generating ISK for RMT that dont require botting, and many people who bot for reasons other than RMTing. Maybe the two issues aren't perfectly orthogonal, but they're no where near perfectly parallel either.
And as a side benefit, adding challenging, unpredictable, involving PVE will in and of itself have a business benefit, since more people will play EVE for that. Even if it does nothing to stop botting, it's justified on its own merits.
Quoting and supporting.
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Al'kanree
|
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:02:00 -
[169]
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Laice
B4D W0LF Systematic-Chaos
|
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:31:00 -
[170]
|
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Ravenator
|
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:07:00 -
[171]
Strongly, definitely, urgently supported.
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Da Trader
|
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:32:00 -
[172]
I support the investigation
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Mielono
SWARTA
|
Posted - 2010.12.14 18:20:00 -
[173]
Is there a way to track a single isk? if so, find someone who has recently been caught with a lot of illegal isk and then just watch where it has been.
Originally by: Culmen
A cat is like that carebear who sticks around only while there's food, and at best kills a few rats.A dog F*cking enforces NBSI, and deep down is slightly disappointed you aren't tak |
Root'er
NeoCorteX Industry Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.12.14 20:23:00 -
[174]
supported
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Ahhhhnold
|
Posted - 2010.12.14 23:58:00 -
[175]
Spank the botters.
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Xel Set
|
Posted - 2010.12.15 00:26:00 -
[176]
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Herping yourDerp
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Posted - 2010.12.15 01:13:00 -
[177]
supporting. it be nice to know your TRYING to kill bots.
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Justin Beaver
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Posted - 2010.12.15 01:14:00 -
[178]
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wr3cks
Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.12.15 04:31:00 -
[179]
Personally, I think they don't care. Occam's Razor, yknow.
But it'd be nice to be wrong.
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Taxesarebad
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:13:00 -
[180]
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Velios
M. Corp M. PIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.15 12:20:00 -
[181]
I would urgently like to see some solid evidence from CCP about their stance on bot's and what exactly (if anything) they intend to do to eliminate their widespread use throughout the game.
It feels to me as if the very image and reputation of the game is being tarnished by the widespread use of bots. It makes the game less special to play knowing there are many people out there making 200x what you ever could because they are using macros. |
Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.12.15 12:21:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Velios I would urgently like to see some solid evidence from CCP about their stance on bot's and what exactly (if anything) they intend to do to eliminate their widespread use throughout the game.
It feels to me as if the very image and reputation of the game is being tarnished by the widespread use of bots. It makes the game less special to play knowing there are many people out there making 200x what you ever could because they are using macros.
They already made a blog, they pretty much said, "detecting bots is hard so we will focus on RMT".
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments ftw |
FactorySlave01
|
Posted - 2010.12.15 19:58:00 -
[183]
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FactorySlave02
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Posted - 2010.12.16 00:02:00 -
[184]
Supported.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.16 01:39:00 -
[185]
You could sit around idly waiting and hoping for CCP to "fix" botting or you could fight back yourself. Your choice really.
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Cal Menahr
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Posted - 2010.12.18 02:10:00 -
[186]
Agreed. Bots destroy the balance of the universe.
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Blind Man
Point Blank Carebears
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Posted - 2010.12.18 05:47:00 -
[187]
Definitely supporting this, all the stories are disheartening to say the least.
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Cornerwood
|
Posted - 2010.12.20 05:19:00 -
[188]
-Thinks deeply- why it took so long get ccp wake up? Is there corruption inside CCP?
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Ariel Blaze
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Posted - 2010.12.20 06:05:00 -
[189]
Make it a bannable offense to have code that affects the client running(most of these bots run python injection scripts). Essentially, it would be an anticheat(they could still use bots that "read" pixels and respond but that is far less effective than the current level of evebot.
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samvital
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Posted - 2010.12.20 13:50:00 -
[190]
Agree
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Davader
|
Posted - 2010.12.20 13:51:00 -
[191]
+1
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The Darker
|
Posted - 2010.12.20 13:52:00 -
[192]
Supporting the idea.
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Bunyip
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.12.20 16:32:00 -
[193]
I have read the blog and am very disheartened. The original blog post gave me hope that Project Unholy Rage might bear fruit. It's good that CCP is blocking RMT, but it's time to take the next step.
CCP, give us tools to help you get rid of this threat that is destroying the market. Even constant macroers and RMTers have given ways to make this not be possible. However, there is none so blind as he who will not see.
I'm not talking about minigames or captchas, but just a real dedication to the players. Your own software is being reverse engineered, and you don't seem to care about your IP. Wake up and smell the corruption.
======== "The civilized man is rude, for he knows that laws protect him from recompense; whereas the savage is not, for his actions can meet a bloody end." - Robert E. Howard |
Red Raider
Evil Dead L.L.C. DEM0N HUNTERS
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Posted - 2010.12.20 17:26:00 -
[194]
Clear out the market bots while you are at it please.
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Thyme Wasted
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Posted - 2010.12.20 23:47:00 -
[195]
Perhaps a new approach is warranted.
After all, if you can't beat em... join em.
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GIGAR
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.23 00:05:00 -
[196]
Still no news from CCP. This is very disappointing.
------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy |
Doctor Verhovcev
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Posted - 2010.12.23 11:23:00 -
[197]
Supported.
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Ksammar
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Posted - 2010.12.23 15:47:00 -
[198]
Supported.
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Gledia
|
Posted - 2010.12.25 06:06:00 -
[199]
CCP plz kill all bots in game!
SUPPORTED
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ninjaholic
NME1
|
Posted - 2010.12.25 06:12:00 -
[200]
Agreed. End the botting.
+ Support EVE's own IN-GAME fight record tool! |
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Mulinex
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Posted - 2010.12.25 11:15:00 -
[201]
Supported. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.12.25 12:23:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Sokratesz So I finally got some free time before dinner now and the feeling that I have had enough time to think everything over so I can tell you the best parts without all the bull****. It won't be as elaborate as last time. In advance I can say however that I felt that it was very productive and, to quote dr. Eyjo, ' You really set things moving in the right direction with the june summit'. ....
Day 2
EVE Economy A very interesting talk about the EVE economy, RMT etc. What became clear is that there still is a ****ton of ISK flowing into the economy whilst not enough is exiting it and that they are looking at ways to change this. We discussed ways of dealing with botters and RMT's and the results of that and their existing efforts should become clear in the next year or so. I am still surprised how Eyjo can manage to talk about spaceship economy for 2 hrs with a straight face but he really knows his stuff.
We will see what this will bear. Remember that CCP is a company and will go first against what will damage its profits more, i.e. RMT and then what damage it less, i.e. singular players bots.
For the same reason they will do a cost/result analysis and when getting one more bot will cost too many man hours of work they will not hunt for it, so we will always have a minimum population of bots.
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Javajunky
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Posted - 2010.12.25 18:55:00 -
[203]
Here is your update,
CCP is in a business. They need to make to money, bots make money. It doesn't matter that PL is running around venal with 100 Titans and Supercaps made with bots ISK, it doesn't matter that the other alliances in the area have a no bot policy.
The devs don't care, cuz you guys are totally against a client based warden or bot detection app..
Soooo.... STFU and deal with the fact they are going to exist in the game even though most of us take the morale high road. Your idiots if you think there is any practical and cost effective way to solve the problem. Oh ya and not supported- don't waste a revs time
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Saerinea Kael
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Posted - 2010.12.27 19:06:00 -
[204]
I hate that bots have/are/will/could be ruining my favorite game and would support any measure to completely remove them.
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Gong Tou
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 10:33:00 -
[205]
Absolutely agree
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support4me
|
Posted - 2010.12.30 13:13:00 -
[206]
Short letter to people who "care", to people who are "affected by bots", to people, whom game was "ruined by bots":
Guys and gals. While you hunt, mine and pvp, bots work. While you sleep, they work. They generate minerals and isk.
Now think - EVERY time YOU lose a ship, you HAVE to buy a new one. Or produce with minerals. Will you dedicate few days of your life on process called "mine-produce-assemble me-self a new drake"? No you won't. You will buy it on the market for 30mil (or how much is it now), which equals 3 or 4 missions with the same drake in highsec. You will buy it. And you won't even think that 70% of everything is produced by bots, from bots' minerals and bpc's. You just don't want to believe in this. Some of you played EVE since 2003, some since yesterday. And most of you never thought of bots until you saw this post.
And now you moan on a really difficult problem (for CCP to track bots), thinking that you were affected. It's like moaning your car dealer that you have to fuel your car.
/me unsupports this |
Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
|
Posted - 2010.12.30 20:10:00 -
[207]
Originally by: support4me Short letter to people who "care", to people who are "affected by bots", to people, whom game was "ruined by bots":
Guys and gals. While you hunt, mine and pvp, bots work. While you sleep, they work. They generate minerals and isk.
Now think - EVERY time YOU lose a ship, you HAVE to buy a new one. Or produce with minerals. Will you dedicate few days of your life on process called "mine-produce-assemble me-self a new drake"? No you won't. You will buy it on the market for 30mil (or how much is it now), which equals 3 or 4 missions with the same drake in highsec. You will buy it. And you won't even think that 70% of everything is produced by bots, from bots' minerals and bpc's. You just don't want to believe in this. Some of you played EVE since 2003, some since yesterday. And most of you never thought of bots until you saw this post.
And now you moan on a really difficult problem (for CCP to track bots), thinking that you were affected. It's like moaning your car dealer that you have to fuel your car.
/me unsupports this
Then maybe you should play on sisi only where everything is 100ISK
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments <0> |
Stegas Tyrano
GREY COUNCIL
|
Posted - 2010.12.30 21:21:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Stegas Tyrano on 30/12/2010 21:21:22 Supported.
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Ekserevnitis
|
Posted - 2010.12.31 13:02:00 -
[209]
Edited by: Ekserevnitis on 31/12/2010 13:03:01 +1
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Optimus Night
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 10:46:00 -
[210]
Wow so baisically CCP is saying it can not do much against bots?
So everyone should get a bot! Or change the game mechanics in a way that eve is so easy that you dont need a bot!
How much time do they dedicate every day to find a solution? Dont they realize that this problem grows bigger and bigger and destroys the game? Does anyone from CCP reacted to this thread other then telling us nothing can be done? lol
Botters you do realize that you will play the game alone someday? May the best bot win!
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Larz Eldherjur
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Posted - 2011.02.01 13:58:00 -
[211]
Cheating is bad. Cheaters will ruin this game if they can continue without any action from CCP.
Supported!
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BOTA KILLA
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Posted - 2011.02.14 20:38:00 -
[212]
the **** we stay in is even deeper : new bot revelations
It seems all these assembly hall threads dont get any recognition from CCP
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George Holden
Out of Control Ltd. Out of Control A
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Posted - 2011.04.17 22:09:00 -
[213]
I support this topic!
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Galleintak
Procion technologies SUB ZERO Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.04 13:52:00 -
[214]
support
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Snaketzu
M. Corp M. PIRE
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Posted - 2011.05.04 18:21:00 -
[215]
Edited by: Snaketzu on 04/05/2011 18:21:17 You would think that from a PR standpoint, CCP would understand this already. Perhaps they should consider some PR help since they currently have a PR problem with a good portion of their customer base over some issue or another. Why are we having to take this effort to get CCP to do something that is so clearly in their best interest? |
Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.05 05:42:00 -
[216]
Cheaters, bots, hacks, etc.. all exist in a half a hundred or more other games. Hackers are the biggest problem on the internet, and it's common as coffee.
Why are you so ****ed at CCP for having the same problem as everyone else, and trying to deal with it. Yes, they exist. I'm quite sure bots are verywhere in EVE and it's a big problem, but there are limited means of getting rid of them, and 'detection' tools don't work nearly as well as you might think. Even PB is reliant primarily on Real People actively searching for hackers, with no more than ~50 people to check on limited capacity servers.
Punkbuster doesn't really detect hacks unless they are old and well known. It also causes a lot of lag, and is borderline invasion of privacy. Many people hate DRM, and generally without considering that half the admins run private servers, and are complete unknowns.
DRM isn't the answer, at least not for EVE. Detection in any case is limited, and that's why many people get away with it.
It ruins the economy. Other things do too, and I'd be hard-pressed to identify the single highest contributing factor to a bad economy in any MMO.
It's a problem, but we aren't going to be any better off knowing anything we don't already know. We can't do anything to fix it, so how can statistics really be all that helpful to know.
Evidence is that knowing isn't helpful, given what I've seen written here as a result of an article on EVE24 News.
Unless they tell you directly, you don't really know if someone is botting or not.
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n4d444
Solar Nexus. -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.05.06 07:07:00 -
[217]
CCP is too engaged in space barbies to give an answer to this thread.
Space barbies < internet spaceships
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Felix Emlen
The Scourge of Abudban
|
Posted - 2011.05.06 07:36:00 -
[218]
Edited by: Felix Emlen on 06/05/2011 07:36:05 For the sake of the miner who actually wants to feel like he is making a meaningful contribution to the market, for the player who wants to feel that his faction ship is not merely an easily acquired isk toy, and for the sake of all those kill mails I would've had flying through 0.0- I too support this.
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Overcharged
|
Posted - 2011.05.14 22:23:00 -
[219]
support
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Fuji 9000
|
Posted - 2011.05.15 11:19:00 -
[220]
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Kelly Kernite
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Posted - 2011.05.15 11:20:00 -
[221]
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Eperor
|
Posted - 2011.05.16 10:28:00 -
[222]
fully
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ironAlex
|
Posted - 2011.05.22 09:11:00 -
[223]
support
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Trebor Daehdoow
|
Posted - 2011.05.22 09:35:00 -
[224]
There will be significant information on this topic in the upcoming CSM summit minutes and/or devblog.
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