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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 26 post(s) |
Max Thunderbird
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Posted - 2010.12.14 01:31:00 -
[241]
The 8 year argument is bogus and does not apply to anyone.
Excluding training during downtime for simplification
Total SP before change = x Allocatable SP after change = y Total SP after change = z or x-y Allocate your SP and new total SP = x or z+y
with numbers
Total SP before change = 20,000,000 Allocatable SP after change = 5,000,000 Total SP after change = 15,000,000 Allocate your SP and new total SP = 20,000,000
Unless there is some type of error total SP after change will not be greater than total SP before change.
One year after change, both assume y has been allocated
Old maximum total SP possible x + 24,282,720 New maximum total SP possible x + 23,652,000
Clearly the old maximum total SP possible is higher (unless CCP Santa takes me back in time for re-training so I can understand that 23 mil is greater than 24 mil).
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Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
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Posted - 2010.12.14 01:48:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Max Thunderbird The 8 year argument is bogus and does not apply to anyone.
Excluding training during downtime for simplification
Total SP before change = x Allocatable SP after change = y Total SP after change = z or x-y Allocate your SP and new total SP = x or z+y
with numbers
Total SP before change = 20,000,000 Allocatable SP after change = 5,000,000 Total SP after change = 15,000,000 Allocate your SP and new total SP = 20,000,000
Unless there is some type of error total SP after change will not be greater than total SP before change.
One year after change, both assume y has been allocated
Old maximum total SP possible x + 24,282,720 New maximum total SP possible x + 23,652,000
Clearly the old maximum total SP possible is higher (unless CCP Santa takes me back in time for re-training so I can understand that 23 mil is greater than 24 mil).
Yea I like that also what he said
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Sabr Sheppard
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:58:00 -
[243]
Edited by: Sabr Sheppard on 14/12/2010 02:59:32 Edited by: Sabr Sheppard on 14/12/2010 02:58:45
Originally by: Max Thunderbird Clearly the old maximum total SP possible is higher (unless CCP Santa takes me back in time for re-training so I can understand that 23 mil is greater than 24 mil).
I Agree that you can not train as fast as you could before assuming you invested the time and isk for the skills / implants but as I pointed out in my post, over the course of an entire year you loose 242.75 hours out of 8766 hours in a year. That's 10 days; 44 minutes; 7 seconds of additional training time or 2.77% less efficient per year. It's not the end of the world and most people, including me, will see a net gain (I will actually take a hit on a few attributes but only by < 1 point).
Also can people please stop saying that you wont feel a nerf for 8 years. Not everyone has every learning skill trained to V and even if they did or you calculated for their SP, the SP being given out is a refund. Not a gift. You already earned them so technically you start to feel the 10 day training time / year nerf from day one.
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.12.14 03:37:00 -
[244]
Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 14/12/2010 03:38:15 To the waste of oxygen crowd of the "I'm getting screwed cause I was all 5s!" ...
You are losing 72 sp/hr you are being given 5m sp to spend where ever the frack you want. You say but I am losing my learning skills!! no you're not you damn cry babies... How the frack did you get so far in eve without the ability to read? You are having the learning skills removed, and replaced with nearly equivalent attributes + 5 m sp! You didn't train the learning skills for any reason other than gaining attributes.
When they nerfed your MWD, or your Webs or ... you name it, did you quit? no you're still here. Get over it, the change is happening, quit your *****ing, this change will give you more people to fight. CCP didn't have to reimburse you, to those who say buy I wanted long term, you get it, you get 5 m sp, for fu cks sake.
IF YOU REALLY CAN'T take it, then please unsubscribe.
I can't figure out how anyone with all 5s could fail so absolutely miserably at reading and logic. It's pathetic, really it is.
====================================== I used to be a nice guy, but the utter lack of common sense on these forums has turned me into a prick. NO YOU DON'T GET A FREE REMAP!!! Nothing changed for yo |
Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.12.14 03:39:00 -
[245]
Originally by: VeNc0tju Q: What about skill books in corp hanger? Q: Do we get a free new remap?
Asked and answered on the first page and devblog, if you can't be bothered to read, why should we be bothered to answer? ====================================== I used to be a nice guy, but the utter lack of common sense on these forums has turned me into a prick. NO YOU DON'T GET A FREE REMAP!!! Nothing changed for yo |
EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.12.14 04:22:00 -
[246]
Q: Is it true that before a change made long ago some learning skills used to be a higher rank? CCRES is recruiting pilots who want to live in WSpace/Wormholes. Fill out an application here! |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.14 04:44:00 -
[247]
Edited by: BiggestT on 14/12/2010 04:45:50
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Is there an undo button when you add/destroy implants? Is there an undo button if you set the wrong skill to train for a few weeks?
Ahh but you can see your mistake seconds after you apply the skill and then change it, if you see a mistake after applying the skillpool you can't.
And implants are different, you get fair warning and implant changes are much rarer so people are generally more careful, however when it comes to skills people are less attentive and may make mistakes..
This won't affect me, I'll be damn careful when applying them, but it may help CCP avoid three million petitions and whine threads on the forums
EVE Trivia EVE History
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Sabr Sheppard
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Posted - 2010.12.14 05:12:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
I can't figure out how anyone with all 5s could fail so absolutely miserably at reading and logic. It's pathetic, really it is.
Analytical Mind at 0? Remap for Perception / Willpower?
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I'thari
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.12.14 06:13:00 -
[249]
Edited by: I''thari on 14/12/2010 06:13:59
Originally by: Mike deVoid So *if* you have trained to 5/5 then your *maximum* possible rate drop by 72 sp/hr at most as this assumes you wear your +5 implants all the time. Because of the 5.376,000 SP reimbursement you won't feel any nerf for a minimum of just over 8.5 years. That figure drops by about 1 year for each Advanced Learning you only put to lvl 4.
I'ts not 8.5 years since all learning skills you have up to 5/4 are reimbursed with learning speed, and 5/5 are reimbursed only with SP, so if Originally by: Mike deVoid That figure drops by about 1 year for each Advanced Learning you only put to lvl 4
it only should be 5 years max (-1 year for each not trained to 5) which is about right, because that's what, as I remember, was point when those skills pay for themselves. |
flooper doodle
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Posted - 2010.12.14 11:22:00 -
[250]
90% of the questions here can be summed up with
L2Read. Or, umad?
It's 72SP an hour. Not that bad. Wasn't there some calculation that said you have to play for 4-5+ years after training a tier 2 skill to 5 to even break even?
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Yu Ruguru
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Posted - 2010.12.14 12:10:00 -
[251]
I debate strongly against anyone losing anything at all (unless you have just maxxed out your training skills and have not trained any other skills - but then again you probably have benefitted from the recent bonusses so that makes even that argument redundant)
In short to illustrate this further as follows: 1) X and Y both get the same cars and start a race to cross a continent 2) X maxxes out his car and starts later but travels faster so travels further over time 3) Y starts traveling straight away but goes slower covering less distance (possibly much less distance than X over a reasonably short period of time)
NOW at a particular point in time the race organisers introduces a new ruling making both equal in power. X loses slightly but gets a bonus equal to the time it took to modify his car. What X does not understand it that he already benefited from his initial upgrade (since learning skills do not take that long to train, face it, and you have probably trained a crapload of skills since) and has therefore already gained substantial distance over Y.
This should put X further ahead of Y by some margin. The only difference is that X will lose some advantage over Y in the long run but the whole argument about losing in totality is crap since X has already enjoyed some benefit from his initial choice to upgrade in the first place. The result however is a much more balanced race that in the long run will ensure more participation and therefore more ability for the race organisers to introduce better racing for all racers including X and Y as well as for the rest of the field.
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Hype
SD Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.14 13:38:00 -
[252]
The above poster sums it up perfectly. You will loose your advantage on future training but have the extra skillpoints that advantage have given you so far. The only thing you 5/5/5 guys loose out "instantly" is total SP numer and an advantage over +5 guys that isn't 5/5 (so for instance you still train faster than me 5/5 but +4 impants) - and if you can't deal with a change like this you shouldn't be playin an mmo. What your character can actually do will be the same untill you have spend your reimbursed points. So only spend those 630k once each year - in your "remapped catagory" or you will benefit from this ! ;)
Originally by: Yu Ruguru I debate strongly against anyone losing anything at all (unless you have just maxxed out your training skills and have not trained any other skills - but then again you probably have benefitted from the recent bonusses so that makes even that argument redundant)
In short to illustrate this further as follows: 1) X and Y both get the same cars and start a race to cross a continent 2) X maxxes out his car and starts later but travels faster so travels further over time 3) Y starts traveling straight away but goes slower covering less distance (possibly much less distance than X over a reasonably short period of time)
NOW at a particular point in time the race organisers introduces a new ruling making both equal in power. X loses slightly but gets a bonus equal to the time it took to modify his car. What X does not understand it that he already benefited from his initial upgrade (since learning skills do not take that long to train, face it, and you have probably trained a crapload of skills since) and has therefore already gained substantial distance over Y.
This should put X further ahead of Y by some margin. The only difference is that X will lose some advantage over Y in the long run but the whole argument about losing in totality is crap since X has already enjoyed some benefit from his initial choice to upgrade in the first place. The result however is a much more balanced race that in the long run will ensure more participation and therefore more ability for the race organisers to introduce better racing for all racers including X and Y as well as for the rest of the field.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.14 14:09:00 -
[253]
Originally by: oolk So if I have 30 intel,Ill get 25 max with +5s...
yay.
No.
Oh look, an easy to understand picture:
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Kromartie
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Posted - 2010.12.14 16:56:00 -
[254]
Sad to see that so many valid concerns have gone without response in both this thread and the dev blog thread
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DR Blues
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Posted - 2010.12.14 22:36:00 -
[255]
1 extra remap point wil solve the 72 debate
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electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.12.15 01:13:00 -
[256]
Q: What about the yokels that somehow have more than the maximum possible sp in learning? Will they be getting those excess sp as well? I.E. these top yokels ― Vexo M > He turned the drives up to 11 |
Yamada Shinichi
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Posted - 2010.12.15 03:09:00 -
[257]
I'm sorry to say it for all the 8 year argumenters, but we already spent the time on those skills. we are simply moving where we put them. we are not regaining the time spent. I personally feel sorry for the older players losing their optimal training speed on their uber trained characters. You can look at the math all you want but the facts still remain the time has been spent as well as a little isk. I'm sad to see both those get overlooked so much and thrown to the side like they never happened.
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Joba'Set
Drunken Profit
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:12:00 -
[258]
Originally by: DR Blues 1 extra remap point wil solve the 72 debate
No one thats going to lose the 72 sp needs a remap thats the point
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:22:00 -
[259]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 15/12/2010 06:24:07
Originally by: Joba'Set
Originally by: DR Blues 1 extra remap point wil solve the 72 debate
No one thats going to lose the 72 sp needs a remap thats the point
* raises hand*
Well I don't really need an extra remap (I have one ready) but if that means I'll have two (like a starter character) I can train some extra charisma skills at max speed before remapping to per/wil!
Like this:
Originally by: Sabr Sheppard I've been saving my remap after hearing the news about Learning Skills. Though I might be in favor of a plus 1 remap for everyone, in which case I'd have two remaps available on Tuesday.
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Pellit1
Caldari Vitai Lampada Rough Necks
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Posted - 2010.12.15 10:40:00 -
[260]
Edited by: Pellit1 on 15/12/2010 10:40:30 My understanding is that if you've invested the most time with CCP you're getting slightly shafted? Not heard of that before Can anyone tell me under what circumstances you're going to train 72sp/h slower? ------------- Rough Necks Alliance
BOOST FALCONS. Nerf whiners.
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RaTTuS
BIG Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:04:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Pellit1
Can anyone tell me under what circumstances you're going to train 72sp/h slower?
remaped to max Pri and secondary skill + +5 implants training a skill for one of those.... --
Join BIG
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Pellit1
Caldari Vitai Lampada Rough Necks
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:17:00 -
[262]
Ah ok then. I guess I won't be affected as I had basics trained to 5 and advanced to 4. Can't wait to distribute my Learning sp around. ------------- Rough Necks Alliance
BOOST FALCONS. Nerf whiners.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:32:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Joba'Set
Originally by: DR Blues 1 extra remap point wil solve the 72 debate
No one thats going to lose the 72 sp needs a remap thats the point
You missed the point.
He's saying 1 extra re-mappable point, would come close to solving the 72sp/h issue. This was in fact, the idea put forward by the CSM.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Joe450
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:33:00 -
[264]
Q: if i have remapped and not due to remap till march, can i still add the 12 points i will get to map as i see fit?
if that makes any sence, i know what i mean just hope you can understand the question
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Davelantor
Caldari The Hunt United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:33:00 -
[265]
Q:Why cant i transfer skill points between characters if they are under the same account.
reasoning: I have used my other chars to performs specific goals, and i no longer find the need to train them any further, but also invested my subscription time to train learning skills in those characters. In that way, the skill points that will be reimbursed will essentially going to be useless to me for those 2 characters.
The Hunt |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:34:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Joe450 Q: if i have remapped and not due to remap till march, can i still add the 12 points i will get to map as i see fit?
if that makes any sence, i know what i mean just hope you can understand the question
The 12 points to each attribute we get with this change, are fixed. They cannot be mapped.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Joe450
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:37:00 -
[267]
ty
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Tarartia
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:40:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Yu Ruguru I debate strongly against anyone losing anything at all (unless you have just maxxed out your training skills and have not trained any other skills - but then again you probably have benefitted from the recent bonusses so that makes even that argument redundant)
In short to illustrate this further as follows: 1) X and Y both get the same cars and start a race to cross a continent 2) X maxxes out his car and starts later but travels faster so travels further over time 3) Y starts traveling straight away but goes slower covering less distance (possibly much less distance than X over a reasonably short period of time)
NOW at a particular point in time the race organisers introduces a new ruling making both equal in power. X loses slightly but gets a bonus equal to the time it took to modify his car. What X does not understand it that he already benefited from his initial upgrade (since learning skills do not take that long to train, face it, and you have probably trained a crapload of skills since) and has therefore already gained substantial distance over Y.
This should put X further ahead of Y by some margin. The only difference is that X will lose some advantage over Y in the long run but the whole argument about losing in totality is crap since X has already enjoyed some benefit from his initial choice to upgrade in the first place. The result however is a much more balanced race that in the long run will ensure more participation and therefore more ability for the race organisers to introduce better racing for all racers including X and Y as well as for the rest of the field.
Except for the fact that in this analogy after the race organisers introduce the new rule, it is no longer a 'race' anymore, because all participants are travelling at the same rate from then on. Y can no longer draw ahead of X at a rate of 72SP/hr. Yeah, sure, you can remap, and chose different career paths, but that becomes comparing apples with oranges. Even assuming that Y is totally benevolent to all other 'racers' and is more than happy to have them catch up with him, his own personal race is now being run at -72SP/hr.
This point is yet to be addressed by anyone at CCP.
And -72SP/hr issue is symbolic of the extreme scenario due to the change. The same dynamic of a relative penalty holds true for player 'A' with 5/5 versus player 'B' with 4/5... Why does player 'B' get a proportionally better bonus relative to player 'A'? Sure, 'A' is not actually harmed (if you really want to get into here, que the tangent into the argument about 'opportunity cost'), but 'B' gains a proportionally better benefit for no apparent rationale.
Also, if anyone brings up the 8 year argument again, please go study formal logic, with an emphasis on spotting fallacies, you will grow as a person.
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Tsetra
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Posted - 2010.12.15 13:52:00 -
[269]
The 8-year argument is indeed extremely silly. What, do you expect EVE to only survive for that long?
Jesus christ, seriously. As if it makes up for anything. It's like saying "Sorry we stole your $5000 car but here's $2500 to make up for it".
What if you'll be playing EVE for the next 16 years, not 8? |
Joss56
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.12.15 13:55:00 -
[270]
Edited by: Joss56 on 15/12/2010 13:55:40
Originally by: Tsetra The 8-year argument is indeed extremely silly. What, do you expect EVE to only survive for that long?
Jesus christ, seriously. As if it makes up for anything. It's like saying "Sorry we stole your $5000 car but here's $2500 to make up for it".
What if you'll be playing EVE for the next 16 years, not 8?
The 72sp is worst than the 8years argument. WTF are your whinings about?
________________________________________________
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