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demonfurbie
Minmatar Drunken Wookies BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.12.17 16:51:00 -
[31]
the hel has many issues that i can see
there needs to be a imp set that works on cap shield hp much like the slaves work on cap hp
as for the bonus goes i would like to see something along the lines of fighter/fighter bombers get a tracking boost per level. that would make a difference on total applied dps.
i think the slot lay out is fine as long as there is an imp set for shield hp if not make it where slaves dont work on caps much like crystals dont
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Sua'Sponte
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Posted - 2010.12.17 18:01:00 -
[32]
A shield version of slaves is the easiest solution for CCP.
Changing the armor repair bonus will take years for them to code, if the naglfar is any benchmark.
Give us shield slaves please. |
Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2010.12.17 19:58:00 -
[33]
I`m sure some people would be annoyed but IMO, slave implants should not work with supercapitals. Those ships have more than enough EHP as it is.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.18 13:15:00 -
[34]
This thread has nothing to do with nurfing slaves or buffing/changing crystals - its about the RR bonus and to a less extent the suvivability of the Hel in rspect to the other moms.
lets keep it focused. -----------
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Angel HUN
Destructive Influence IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.18 13:32:00 -
[35]
Agreed. Implants discussion really has no place here.
However it does seem that the idea of added tank (in terms of raw hp) is fairly popular. Personally I dont find this to fit in with the majority of Minmatar ships. RR or an indirect damage buff seem to be the two options that fit the design of the race. Which oneis better really depends on the role in which the Hel is designated.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
We. Will. Never. Leave. EVE.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.18 19:40:00 -
[36]
I hope the folks at CCP at least took a gander at this thread.
Here is to hoping. -----------
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2010.12.18 20:36:00 -
[37]
I guess if it got down to tank or damage...I'd like a second SC to have some damage bonus. The Hel is a good looking ship and a big investment. It's a shame it is considered *worst in class*
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Tex Raynor
Caldari The High and Mighty
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Posted - 2010.12.18 21:53:00 -
[38]
Make the Hel follow the Minmatar combat approach, which focuses on superior speed and firepower. Minmatar sub-caps have the highest base speeds for their racial equivalents, but such a bonus would be silly on a SC.
Here is what I propose:
Give the Hel a bonus per level of 5% reduced required cap to initiate jump, as well as a bonus to jump range. Give it also the lock speed of battleships.
Given its current bonuses, it would make the Hel the ideal SC for hot-dropping in smaller gangs (RR) and Hels would also be the ideal capitals for fast-response - first ones in, first ones out, as the other slower but more defense-capable SCs get into position.
The above bonus would balance versus their inferior tank and gank compared to the 3 other SCs.
I also agree with Atius Tirawa's idea, as it would also shift them towards being the optimal fast-response SCs.
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ANON POASTY
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Posted - 2010.12.18 21:58:00 -
[39]
Most Hel pilots i know who fly them in fleets dual tank, The most common (abreaviating here)
Point, sebo, 2x CR, 2x CN invuln
DC, a-type enam, xtype therm+kine+exp
t2 trimarks
HG slave set
with the fit its comparable to the aeon for ehp (assuming no fleet bonuses), still less but less significant. Bonus is you get more efficent shield repping from whoever
Still that being said i think it needs a buff, at least a relevent bonus (if anyone thinks that an armour amount repping bonus is relevent on a SC you are ****ing bat ****) and another mid or low. Or at least some HP buff to help bring it in line with the others.
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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.12.18 23:25:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Atius Tirawa The reason the Niddy's RR capability is so gimped is not its tank per se - that is to say - no carrier tank today matters in the face of how capital warfare is conducted - especially considering the niddys role.
Rather the problem with the Niddy is the simplar to the Hel's in that it cannot generate enough cap to actually run RR mods effectivly and thus take advantage of its intended bonus 0 unlke fighter/fighter bomber bonus and the resist bonus' which are passive and do not require any active anything - the niddy and hel must be able to use RR to take advantage of its role.
...
Again to recap - the problem with the Niddy is the same as the Hel - it can't do its job because of its crap capacitor - minus slaves - its tank is comprable (in sheld form which has traditionally been considered gimped in capital warfare) to the Thanatos.
There is really no big reason to fit a shield tank on a Nidhoggur if you don't have to. There are even MORE low slots than there mid slots. I'd just go armor. And if you go armor, the capacitor is totally fine. Seriously, it's not a problem.
Also, saying that the Nidhoggur is the only carrier that cannot fulfill its bonused role when it is capped out seems silly to me. It's a carrier, and like all carriers, they are almost entirely logistics boats. Carriers do pretty lousy damage, often less than a single battleship, but their logistic capabilities (for which they are all bonused) are mad.
As for the Hel: I'm sure its logistical abilities are pretty impressive, but they are not to SCALE. Whether it maintain game balance to MAKE them scale is another question entirely, but the fact remains that supercapital ships are now SO HUGE that any remote rep they can bring to bear looks pretty sad in comparison to any deficiencies in tank they may suffer as a result. I wouldn't run remote reps from a Hel unless I was receiving capacitor to cover it; with your entire tank relying on the hardeners you have running, I wouldn't want to make myself any closer to neuted out than necessary.
You may dislike "separating the role of carriers (fleet logistics) from SC (fleet captial killers) entierly," but I'm afraid that already happened a long time ago. Right about the time that CCP announced that Supercars are no longer logistic havens, but anticapital monsters, tiny gods of PVP. Your suggestions along the line of bringing them back to their former glory would only make the Hel slightly better at something that nobody wants, and leave the others unchanged.
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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.12.18 23:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: ANON POASTY Most Hel pilots i know who fly them in fleets dual tank, The most common (abreaviating here)
Point, sebo, 2x CR, 2x CN invuln
DC, a-type enam, xtype therm+kine+exp
t2 trimarks
HG slave set
with the fit its comparable to the aeon for ehp (assuming no fleet bonuses), still less but less significant. Bonus is you get more efficent shield repping from whoever
I just looked up this fit. It has 18.4 million EHP with HG slaves and Akemon's modified ZET5000.
This is NOWHERE NEAR Aeon tank levels. Not even close. Not even a third. It's considerably worse in both capacitor and buffer than the Hel's proper shield tank:
DCU, 4x cal navy PDU 2 faction invulns Pith X hardeners: photon photon, heat, ballistic, explosion damp
Originally by: Atius Tirawa ...a FB bonus of any sort would be really bad. ... a buff to the RR capabilities 87.5% per level transfer and 5% per level cap use).
I get the gist of your argument, and it is well stated. For that, I do not hate you, unlike 90+ % of the people I see on the forums. However, it all keeps coming back to the fact that if you're going to give the Hel enough remote rep capability to make a repping Hel a significant asset on the capital battlefield (in place of what could be a different supercarrier) you're giving it such a huge bonus that it's going to be used in some silly and potentially game-breaking ways. Supercapital buffers are just so huge that the rep bonus has almost no bearing on them.
I mean, imagine when all the enemy has to do is have a couple Hels hovering 50m outside their POS shields ready to dive back in at a moment's notice, repping the shields AND the modules with the power of 2 triage carriers each.
I very much think that the sort of bonus most in line with the Minmatar fitting philosophy is to give it way to deal better damage. I don't think ROF is the way to do this -- you might as well just give it a damage bonus. Plus, a 5% ROF bonus to fighter bombers makes it do significantly better DPS compared to the Nyx, making it the most gank-ass supercarrier in the game.
Basically, it should be able to deal better damage, at least some of the time, than the Aeon and Wyvern. It just pains me to see a Minmatar ship that can't be used over another ship to appreciably turn any fight one way or another. Hence: a significant tracking bonus to Fighters and Fighter Bombers. This is what I'd like to see.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.19 02:56:00 -
[42]
real quick response to the quote there - I ment (7.5% per level) not 87.5% per level - that was my shift key messing up. . . I will get to the rest after I get some more sleep. -----------
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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.12.20 09:56:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Atius Tirawa real quick response to the quote there - I ment (7.5% per level) not 87.5% per level - that was my shift key messing up. . . I will get to the rest after I get some more sleep.
That's part of my point though. Asking for an 87.5% bonus per level isn't out of the way, because that's the size of bonus you'd need to actually make remote rep viable in a supercapital fight. A smaller bonus won't cut it, and a bigger bonus breaks the game. This is why I think that the RR route isn't the answer here.
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Seryius
WALLTREIPERS
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Posted - 2010.12.30 10:35:00 -
[44]
RR bonus in the niddy is cool and can triage, like the other carriers that are big logistic vessels. However, with the transition MS->SC, the Hel RR bonus is absolutely outdated. They are not more a triage MS that are settled in a pos repping a cynojammer. Now, the SC can't triage, and they are the behemonts of a battlefield. Their bonuses must be in line with their roles.
According to the Minmatar style, the Hel shouldn't tank much but the damage dealt to the enemies should be impressive.
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.30 10:42:00 -
[45]
Personally i think a tracking bonus for fighters and FBs would be better... increase it to the point where at L5, the Hels FBs can do the same damage to a BS as they could Vs a cap ship
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demonfurbie
Minmatar Drunken Wookies BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.12.30 15:53:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Headerman Personally i think a tracking bonus for fighters and FBs would be better... increase it to the point where at L5, the Hels FBs can do the same damage to a BS as they could Vs a cap ship
totally agree it would give a reason to train for the hel atm there is almost no reason to train for a hel over any of the others
if im spending that much isk on a ship i want to train for one that works well and lets face it the hel is very lack luster
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Izuru Hishido
Amarr Lethal Dosage. Violent Society
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Posted - 2010.12.31 07:17:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 31/12/2010 07:25:09 Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 31/12/2010 07:19:44
Originally by: Angel HUN Edited by: Angel HUN on 17/12/2010 12:18:44 Option for Hel:
1) Maintain RR Role - Make this role viable by adding a capacitor usage bonus to the RR modules, and adjusting rep amount; make the ship shine in a logistics role. This to me feels contrary to the nature of the class of ship, but it does have some unique features. I also feel that this adjustment without alteration to the Hel's survivability, will not be used.
Buying a Hel means you're buying a supercap to support the other supercaps. You're a triage carrier that can warp and jump out at will and use fighters, so why waste the tremendous rep bonus it gets naturally? The Hel is fantastic for keeping other supercapitals alive, and frankly, if I ran into a fleet of ten wyverns and five hel's with my arrayed fleet of motherships, (say ten Nyxs, three Aeons and two Wyverns) I really wouldn't want to mess with them.
Hels have a phenomenal ability to keep other supercapitals alive. Now, granted you can't rep as quickly as a triage carrier, but you have the bonus of being fairly sturdy if you have a good fit and high level meta invuls instead of the crap DG/CN invul fits I keep seeing flying around, (not saying you should Estamel's fit, but Thons or Vepas, hell even Kaikka's aren't that expensive to put on a mothership)
The entire role of the minmatar carriers is to keep other capitals alive. Thats their reason for being, and Hels outrep other supercaps like mad, plus when you add in the numbers you get from the carrier support fleet, you can pretty much be assured your reps won't be outmatched easily. Of course, there is always the option for the batphone that the other guys can use to bring in the cavalry, but still. Hels are remarkable logistics platforms, and they're unique in their ability to function as such compared to the other motherships.
It really wouldn't make sense to give the Hel a damage bonus to its drones/fighters/bombers because then it would have the same bonus as a Nyx and there'd be no general correlation with the rest of the minmatar capitals.
Adding a tracking bonus for subcapitals is just a way to get around the recent FB nerf. Thats all that would happen, then CCP would end up nerfing all motherships again instead of just changing the Hel back to what it was. So, the best thing for the Hel is just to get a slight EHP boost, maybe to put it inline more with the Wyvern's tanking abilities, because I agree that Hel's have horrid tanks. I'm not saying to give it an Aeon's bonuses, because, well that would be stupid and I already covered duplicating bonuses that make other ships unique, but give the Hel maybe a marginal amount more base shields and it'll naturally balance out.
Edit: So in the long run, I fit in with the side of the argument that says 'give it better repping ability and a little more HP.' Then it'd actually be able to have a true purpose on the field instead of just being there. "The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his." |
Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.31 09:14:00 -
[48]
If the Hels bonuses were changed to bring it more in line with a 'Super Support Carrier' mantra, should it have better bonuses for RR? Like 50% or 100% increase to shield/armour transfer amount per level?
IMO it should, as a) There are not many people flying a Hel b) Its bonuses are of little use (i have never seen a Hel used as triage before c) It has weak defenses
Consequently, they are usually the first to go, as everyone wants an easy kill.
If it's going to be used as a triage carrier, then it needs to be marketed as one.
On the other hand you have Minmatars philosophy of 'fast and powerful'; fast ships with serious DPS. Examples: Naglfar, Hurricane, Typhoon, Thrasher, Rifter.
Most of those ships are good at tanking by taking out enemy ships quickly. Why bother with defenses when powerful guns do the job instead? Hell even the Hels statement hints at nothing about RR:
Quote: Inspired by a vicious scissor-toothed shark indigenous to old-world Matar, the Hel is widely viewed as a sign of a Republic out for blood. Since the beginning of its development it has remained a project cloaked in secrecy, with precious few people aware of its progress and its capabilities, and its formal unveiling has come as a defiant slap in the face to many who formerly believed the Matari incapable of working at this scale of starship design. Whatever comprises the soil of its roots, though, one thing is clear: from no-frills living quarters to grim, unadorned aesthetic, this ferocious behemoth has been designed for one purpose and one purpose only.
One thing that sprang to my mind when i first looked at that years ago was 'ferocious'. The DPS bonus is taken with the Nyx 9and rightly so), so what else is left to make the Hel ferocious? Not alot
With the recent FB nerf though, i do think the Hel can step in to the roll of sub cap destroyer via a tracking bonus. ESPECIALLY if its defenses were left unchanged. Think about it, the Hel would be used as a gank ship sure. But overall its DPS would be less than the Nyxs before the nerf. And deploying it in fleet engagements would pose a risk as well, since the enemy would want to eliminate it as quickly as possible. The end result: tanking by DPS. Destroy the enemy as quickly as possible to reduce incoming damage.
If the Hel did get a tracking bonus, CCP could easily make FBs deal less damage than before the nerf anyway. Or trade 5% of damage to 5% tracking, or whatever else works.
just my 2c :)
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StrikeForcer
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Posted - 2010.12.31 20:09:00 -
[49]
Edited by: StrikeForcer on 31/12/2010 20:12:31
Originally by: Medidranda Livoga I`m sure some people would be annoyed but IMO, slave implants should not work with supercapitals. Those ships have more than enough EHP as it is.
IMO best thing to do. you do this and you bring the tank in line with the nyx (the other no resists supercap). should only be fair, the crystal set doesnt work on capital mods/ships why should the slave set?
Or make it simple and make the crystal set give bonus to shield hp instead of shield rep bonus.
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HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.31 22:57:00 -
[50]
Random thought: switch the slot layout of the Hel with that of the Wyvern?
This probably goes some way towards equalising those two EHP-wise, if not resolving the shields vs armour issue.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.31 23:59:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Atius Tirawa on 01/01/2011 00:09:04 Glad someone agrees with me that the Niddy/hel should kep their RR bonus'.
Originally by: Headerman If the Hels bonuses were changed to bring it more in line with a 'Super Support Carrier' mantra, should it have better bonuses for RR? Like 50% or 100% increase to shield/armour transfer amount per level?
10% RR bonus is too much (its currently 5%) - maby a 7.5% per levl to RR (the 50% option) but this may already be a bit overpowered. . .possibly. What both the niddy and hel need is a 5% per level cap use per level bonus to be combined with the amount bonus. If I am not mistaken, thats the bonus the Nidy origionally had - they should have just added the RR bonus to it rather then replace it.
Originally by: HELIC0N ONE Random thought: switch the slot layout of the Hel with that of the Wyvern?
This probably goes some way towards equalising those two EHP-wise, if not resolving the shields vs armour issue.
Wyvern is compaired to the Aeon, the Nyx to the hel - as far as tanking goes. So no thats a terribad idea.
Whats really important to ask, and this is where Iam Widdershins' comment is prudent, is what the scale of the RR buff should be. Currently a captial shield/armor rep does 1500 normal, 1800 for the niddy and hel - not a lot considering the mods cycle time. At 7.5% its 2062.5 per cycle (37.5% bonus to 1500) which suddenly makes the bonus quite significant. Thats the problem - it can be abused - but personally, I think all the supercaps can be abused\, and 2062.5 per cycle with a 5% or 7.5% bonus to cap use will actually help make both th ships very viable for flet use.
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.01 00:07:00 -
[52]
Originally by: HELIC0N ONE Random thought: switch the slot layout of the Hel with that of the Wyvern?
This probably goes some way towards equalising those two EHP-wise, if not resolving the shields vs armour issue.
IMO if the defences for the Hel are to be changed, then the Hel should recieve the same amount of shields as the amount of armour on the Nyx.
So Hel Shields = Nyx Armour
I was also thinking a cap usage bonus with an RR increase amount would be really good too.
What about a range bonus, and/or a cap transfer amount bonus?
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Barton Gilbert
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Posted - 2011.01.01 03:09:00 -
[53]
Hel needs more raw shield hp and some kind of damage bonus. give it like 1m raw shield hp and like 3% rof of FB per level or something.
2 tank SCarriers 2 gank SCarriers
Currently, a hel in fleet just means more ehp for the guys flying nyxes because the hel is getting shot first.
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.01 04:21:00 -
[54]
.... Craps.
Why didn't i think of a RoF increase bonus? :S
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.01.01 06:18:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Aamrr on 01/01/2011 06:18:58
Originally by: Headerman .... Craps.
Why didn't i think of a RoF increase bonus? :S
Mostly because a 5% bonus to fighter bomber RoF would correlate to a 6.7% greater DPS output than a Nyx, with no associated drawbacks in capacitor or ammo consumption? I suppose you could give it a 4% bonus and have it be equivalent, but that's just so...bland.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.01 09:35:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 01/01/2011 06:18:58
Originally by: Headerman .... Craps.
Why didn't i think of a RoF increase bonus? :S
Mostly because a 5% bonus to fighter bomber RoF would correlate to a 6.7% greater DPS output than a Nyx, with no associated drawbacks in capacitor or ammo consumption? I suppose you could give it a 4% bonus and have it be equivalent, but that's just so...bland.
excatly - any streight up damage bonus (ROF) or tracking bonus maks the Hel just an inferior Nyx (and remmeber, the Niddy changes too since the two ships remain consistant) and that just makes the Hel and Niddy truly redundant.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.01 10:03:00 -
[57]
why not just remove it from the game? who said matars should have their mothership anyway?
btw first you should care about frig and cruiser balance before you want balance in supercaps class so lets nerf matar first!!!
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Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
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Posted - 2011.01.01 11:19:00 -
[58]
It really should keep its RR bonus, and get either that boosted and/or an EHP boost. It should be a giant logistics platform.
Do not want another supercap with a fighter/FB bonus.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.01.01 20:24:00 -
[59]
Is it possible to buff INCOMING remote reps? What about a 100% bonus to incoming remote reps per level?
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Labceh
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Posted - 2011.01.02 05:38:00 -
[60]
I am a fairly new player to Eve. I am definitely not an expert when it comes to capital ships. However, having lived in null sec for awhile (learning the art of Eve painfully), I have learned a lot from the experienced players. I am interested in becoming a capital ship pilot and I have researched the Hel. From what I understand, Minmatar in general has a bad line of capital ships despite featuring great sub-capital ships. Can you ask for everything?
To make the Hel a more viable choice we (currently) have two choices:
1.Add a bigger RR bonus 2.Add a damage bonus
To be honest, I disagree with the first option. Even if we bring the tanking abilities of the Hel on par with the other super carriers, it will just make the Hel be the first ship to go down. Why not just put a sticker on it saying, ôDonÆt forget to primary!ö We could always make the tanking abilities superior to the other ships in its class but it would make this ship overpowered.
The second option would simply make the ship bland like someone has already mentioned.
Maybe a signature radius bonus would help it out. It could also be the most agile in its class. The problem with those suggestions is if a super carrier should even be able to that. I wouldnÆt want a SC kitting me :p
*Sorry for any spelling mistakes
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