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Soden Rah
Gallente Rapier Industry and Technology Second Sun Rising
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Posted - 2010.12.17 01:40:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Soden Rah on 17/12/2010 01:40:14 In this Blog: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=829 Which was very shiny. It has a diagram showing CPU time spent on different activities in Destiny. The amount spent actually doing the 'physics' was proportionally tiny. Circa 5%.
Now I like many others would like weapons to use LOS. In other words they don't magically shoot straight through big solid objects like ships roids and stations. Which is a bit immersion breaking for those who like the rpg in mmorpg. And reduces the tactical options and the value of having different environments in eve.
The main standard objection is the reasonable one that making weapons have to do LOS calculations will make destiny explode and lag go through the roof. And they might still be right. However as the above demonstrates the amount of time destiny is spending on actual physics calculations is tiny. So I bring this topic back up as it might in the light of this be possible to have without making eve lag game breakingly worse. I have some thoughts on how I might go about this but weather its actually possible is down to eve's actual code and the devs who run it. So ill assume for the purposes of this that it is possible till told definitively otherwise.
The other main objection is to do with exploits and concord in highsec. I think that these issues can be overcome.
Problem. Your legitimately shooting someone in highsec, someone unintentionally or otherwise comes between you and your target (or your flight paths cause something like a gate or station to get between you) and you shoot it. GCC WFT Concord PWNAge ensues.
Solution: Firstly I think this could be reduced by scaling eve up so distances (with balanced associated speeds and tracking) are larger so things are more spaced out. make space feel more roomy, something like a scale factor of 10, so 5km ranges become 50km and 100km go to 1000km.... makes accidentally getting something in the way much less likely, however doesn't solve the problem and is a whole other kettle of fish so...
Make turrets have safeties. (missiles fly around stuff, or self destruct if they can't avoid something concordable) either they don't fire if there is something in the way, or they fire but the ammo has a proximity sensor and self destructs if it gets too close to something that isn't its target. You can make the safety able to be turned on/off possibly with different behaviours in high/lowsec.
If the check is only made when turrets fire, and they deactivate if they can't fire. (The self destructing ammo is self limiting as the turrets still have to cycle) Then there very little added server load to having the safety's and just firing. It has to do the LOS calculations either way, it just changes the outcome as to whether the guns fire or not, if the dmg calculations are done after that then it might actually be less load when they don't fire.
Anyhow I think it is possible to implement this in a way that doesn't make it too dangerous to shoot anyone in highsec. And it might be possible to do it without breaking destiny, soo...
Thoughts comments flames....
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.12.17 01:47:00 -
[2]
reducing the likeliness of accidental fire in highsec is not solving the issue. there is still too much potential for griefing. (e.g. orbit a mission runner between the turrets and the mission rats)
and if you had just spent 5minutes checking eve-search. you would have found all the old threads with the explanation why LOS would kill any server out there in a fight 100vs100. not to mention 800vs800.
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Soden Rah
Gallente Rapier Industry and Technology Second Sun Rising
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Posted - 2010.12.17 02:21:00 -
[3]
Originally by: darius mclever reducing the likeliness of accidental fire in highsec is not solving the issue. there is still too much potential for griefing. (e.g. orbit a mission runner between the turrets and the mission rats)
and if you had just spent 5minutes checking eve-search. you would have found all the old threads with the explanation why LOS would kill any server out there in a fight 100vs100. not to mention 800vs800.
Well first point, the number of people prepared to spend their time trying to stay between a missioner and his rats to stop them shooting them is very small. The reason, it makes no isk, also bloody hard to do if there is more than one rat.
Second I didn't need to Google for old threads as I HAVE BEEN IN SOME OF THEM.... I know the arguments about LOS calculations. However they were based on the assumption that the server spent most of its time doing physics calculations. This is apparently not true.
Now I didn't want to get into the can destiny handle it arguments as I HAVE seen them before and its all fairly pointless as we don't have access to eves base code so even those who know how to program/do maths end up talking out of their arses. I don't know how destiny works, and unless you're a dev neither do you.
However from the standpoint of not being able to look under the hood I do know that destiny does have to keep track of large numbers of objects and check for collisions. As you can't fly through other ships/roids or stations. The same arguments about doing LOS calculations Might apply to any moving thing in eve that can bump. I.E. it scales exponentially with number of objects.
Now if destiny can cope with the calculations for every ship and colideable object in a big fleet fight while only using 5% of its tick, then it might be possible for LOS to be implemented.
However as the only people who can comment on that are the DEV's themselves (and I have little hope of that happening) Then talking about it is meaningless.
This doesn't mean that discussing LOS from a game play perspective is pointless as in the light of new information it Might be possible. This is why I wanted to start a thread to discuss how it might be implemented from a game play aspect. If you think it's all pointless as it would break destiny then fine don't participate. If however you would like/or otherwise to see this feature from a game play perspective then please comment.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.17 02:30:00 -
[4]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 17/12/2010 02:31:26
Originally by: Soden Rah
Well first point, the number of people prepared to spend their time trying to stay between a missioner and his rats to stop them shooting them is very small. The reason, it makes no isk, also bloody hard to do if there is more than one rat.
No ISK? Are you bleeding insane? Oh no, there's no ISK to be made at all at planting yourself between a mission rat and a ship with a billion ISK in fittings and letting him CONCORD himself into oblivion so you can scoop the loot.
The best part, you won't even take a sec hit for doing it.
If you don't think people will flock to this like flies on ****, you're not playing the same game we are. Edit for quote fail. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
Soden Rah
Gallente Rapier Industry and Technology Second Sun Rising
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Posted - 2010.12.17 02:34:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Soden Rah on 17/12/2010 02:35:45
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 17/12/2010 02:30:51
Originally by: Soden Rah
Well first point, the number of people prepared to spend their time trying to stay between a missioner and his rats to stop them shooting them is very small. The reason, it makes no isk, also bloody hard to do if there is more than one rat.
No ISK? Are you bleeding insane? Oh no, there's no ISK to be made at all at planting yourself between a mission rat in a ship with a billion ISK in fittings and letting him CONCORD himself into oblivion so you can scoop the loot.
The best part, you won't even take a sec hit for doing it.
If you don't think people will flock to this like flies on ****, you're not playing the same game we are. Edit for quote fail.
ahem you didn't read the bit where I proposed safeteys that stoped the turrets accidentally shooting greifers thus no concord. I went into it in some detail actually. This being as I do play eve, I have done for some time, I know all about greifers and I have been in these threads before and have seen these arguments before.
Remove head from Arse, reread OP and try again.
And it wasn't the quote that failed.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.17 02:39:00 -
[6]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 17/12/2010 02:46:23
Originally by: Soden Rah
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 17/12/2010 02:30:51
Originally by: Soden Rah
Well first point, the number of people prepared to spend their time trying to stay between a missioner and his rats to stop them shooting them is very small. The reason, it makes no isk, also bloody hard to do if there is more than one rat.
No ISK? Are you bleeding insane? Oh no, there's no ISK to be made at all at planting yourself between a mission rat in a ship with a billion ISK in fittings and letting him CONCORD himself into oblivion so you can scoop the loot.
The best part, you won't even take a sec hit for doing it.
If you don't think people will flock to this like flies on ****, you're not playing the same game we are. Edit for quote fail.
ahem you didn't read the bit where I proposed safeteys that stoped the turrets accidentally shooting greifers thus no concord. I went into it in some detail actually. This being as I do play eve, I have done for some time, I know all about greifers and I have been in these threads before and have seen these arguments before.
Remove head from Arse, reread OP and try again.
I was referring to your response to the previous poster and your asinine assertion that there was no isk involved.
In the case of your "safties", I simply swarm orbit the sod with eight or nine over tanked ships, while a warp scrambling rat holds him in place and wait for the mission ships he can no longer shoot through me to kill him.
Then I scoop the loot.
The end result is the same. I win the lottery.
Originally by: Soden Rah Edited by: Soden Rah on 17/12/2010 02:35:45
And it wasn't the quote that failed.
And fwiw snarky comments are far more effective when you don't have to edit them in. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
Soden Rah
Gallente Rapier Industry and Technology Second Sun Rising
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Posted - 2010.12.17 02:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
I was referring to your response to the previous poster and your asinine assertion that there was no isk involved.
In the case of your "safties", I simply swarm orbit the sod with eight or nine over tanked ships, while a warp scrambling rat holds him in place and wait for the mission ships he can no longer shoot through me to kill him.
Then I scoop the loot.
The end result is the same. I win the lottery.
This is assuming that the bill isk mission boat doesn't have a perma tank, In which case your sitting there all day, making no isk. but ok...
Your forgetting the missioners drones which melt the rat scrambling him then he warps off, your forgetting his corp mates which come and melt the frig, and most missioners kill the scramblers first so you have to get into the mission pocket before that happens. You can certainly make yourselves a pain in the arse but you can't actually use this to kill the player in any reliable fashion. Thus my non asinine assertion that there is no isk, or atleast not enough that its worth bothering with,It's just not profitable. Unless the player in question turns the saftys off... but then thats there own damn fault and all part of eve.
It's far more hassle, for far less effect than the standard, steal his loot and if he shoots you come back with pvp boat. as that pays all the way, and is much easyer to do. You can also do it solo, you need a small fleet to do yours.
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Soden Rah
Gallente Rapier Industry and Technology Second Sun Rising
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Posted - 2010.12.17 02:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
And fwiw snarky comments are far more effective when you don't have to edit them in.
yeah but I started my post before you did your edit. Of course I wouldn't be making any snarky comments if you had started out with a fair and reasoned critisisum rather than calling me insane :-)
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cpu939
Gallente Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.12.17 03:24:00 -
[9]
I'll start with saying I do like the idea los firing, it makes the game more realistic.
I would love this as I can stop a war target shooting my friend by moving in front of him thus the ammo self destructs this creates two enjoyments for me I'm safe not in the war targets corp and the other guy waste a little extra isk and gives me his emo tears.
I also enjoy ****ing with missioners ninja looting scooping loot have guys near by ready to warp in once the missioner gets ****ed off and firers on me.
now we can stop him making isk and enjoy his tears by sitting just off his gun ports he can't make isk only sit there and tank as we bump him so he can't warp we kill the rats if we want and make isk. even better is if he can't tank due to not killing the rats and with us bumping him he can't warp might get some nice faction mods for free
wait wait almost forgot the missioner get so ****ed at us he fire on us getting concorded and a sec rate hit
the above is all the **** I can see happing with los firing. I do think it would be nice if players that want it could turn on there own option for it.
Signature not EVE Related. - Adida |
World Director
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Posted - 2010.12.17 05:22:00 -
[10]
That will kill the blob. It's a bad thing bro. |
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Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar Rebirth.
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Posted - 2010.12.17 06:21:00 -
[11]
Not being able to rep or shoot through stations would be great. ------------------------------------------------- "Vae Victis" -Brennus |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.12.17 06:50:00 -
[12]
If the griefer is sitting between your target and you, isn't he also sitting between you and your target? So the griefer is helpfully tanking a room full of rats for you.
This will not kill blobs, it will make fleet warfare more interesting since smaller ships will be able to use larger ships for cover. You will have to use tactics other than calling primary in alphabetical order.
How to handle this in hisec? That's where it gets hairy. We want to allow suicide ganking but not accidentally. We want to allow mission running, but have punishment for shooting the wrong people.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
ollobrains
5th Front enterprises Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2010.12.17 11:53:00 -
[13]
interesting idea
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari Technomage Trilogy Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.12.17 13:13:00 -
[14]
It's not exactly hard to fix.
Option A - Weapons won't fire with a target that would give you a GCC between you and the intended target. Suboption 1 - Weapon makes last minute adjustment and fires off into nothing, wasting the shot to avoid the GCC. Suboption 2 - Weapon delays firing (if on autorepeat) until valid firing solution is available.
Option B - Non AoE attacks don't trigger GCC on unintentional hits. Suboption 1 - 'Accidental' ship kills still trigger GCC, drones not included.
Of course, there will be ways to use and abuse it in high sec no matter what you do, but taking out the easier options is good enough in my book.
-More Pewpew, Less QQ- |
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