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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Heimer
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2011.01.11 20:30:00 -
[121]
Still no dev reply. Excellence in the making.
( ) <- planet (not to scale) لللللل --EhonVonnre |
mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
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Posted - 2011.01.11 22:06:00 -
[122]
Some of the concerns are warranted, but I think the expectation that extraction rates and setups would perfectly match the old system is unreasonable.
It's a new system, you're going to have to adapt. As for "leaving it alone", players basically demanded a PI revision and we should be happy CCP is following through.
As for PI prices, lower extraction rates should be a good thing to you PI players, it means more demand and more profit ;) Also, only POS fuel has risen due to certain bottlenecks, all POSs and POS parts are 50% lower than the NPC days. Maybe POS fuels should be made an easier to produce commodity, but talking P4s even more is not the way to go.
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Rupicolous
Higher Ground
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Posted - 2011.01.11 22:47:00 -
[123]
 Originally by: mechtech
Some of the concerns are warranted, but I think the expectation that extraction rates and setups would perfectly match the old system is unreasonable.
It's a new system, you're going to have to adapt. As for "leaving it alone", players basically demanded a PI revision and we should be happy CCP is following through.
As for PI prices, lower extraction rates should be a good thing to you PI players, it means more demand and more profit ;) Also, only POS fuel has risen due to certain bottlenecks, all POSs and POS parts are 50% lower than the NPC days. Maybe POS fuels should be made an easier to produce commodity, but talking
P4s even more is not the way to go.
- Considering the old system has been in place for several months now, extraction rates and setups should come close to what we are accustomed to.
- I never heard anyone say "throw the original PI out". What I did hear is "make improvements"
- more demand is more profit until the time invested becomes longer than time invested in other ISK generating ventures.
At this point, i'm very dissapointed to have taken the time to train all the PI skills to lvl 5.
As it looks, the new PI system will either become too much a burden or simply not worth the time invested.
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Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.01.12 01:56:00 -
[124]
if changes go live, i see most people completely dropping it. even on tranq currently it's hardly worth the time, but easy enough for noobs to get into. decreasing profit and adding more mundane tasks does not improvement make.
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Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
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Posted - 2011.01.12 07:46:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Lain Umi
if changes go live, i see most people completely dropping it. even on tranq currently it's hardly worth the time, but easy enough for noobs to get into. decreasing profit and adding more mundane tasks does not improvement make.
This, most people just wanted a one click button to restart all extractors.
-Darod- |
Tergiminius
Binary Star
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Posted - 2011.01.12 10:09:00 -
[126]
I have to agree with Darod, the current system but with a one-button set for all would have worked for me. The aim should be to make it as simple as possible, after all when DUST hits we want 1000s of PI planets for them to attack, with a more complicated system and less people interested in it then the DUSTIES will have less to play with.
I wonder if the DEVS have considered how the ECU head free movement interacts with DUST...someone attacking your planet ? Simply move the head a few hundred miles and let the DUSTIES have to run it again, you could keep it up all day, make em run round the entire planet  |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.01.12 10:48:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Tergiminius
I have to agree with Darod, the current system but with a one-button set for all would have worked for me. The aim should be to make it as simple as possible, after all when DUST hits we want 1000s of PI planets for them to attack, with a more complicated system and less people interested in it then the DUSTIES will have less to play with.
If less people make PI products the prices will rise.. now guess what happens to the value of a planet.
support
Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
Slide Quetor
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Posted - 2011.01.12 11:40:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Slide Quetor on 12/01/2011 11:46:13
Put some new buildings in already that introduces some daily strategy. Something akin to a daily game of chess (or RISK) played out on the planet when we can fight over the ever depleting resources with other players and npcs on the planet. A finite amount of moves per day (based on what buildings u have).
Attack the other players units, order the DUST crew into attack their other buildings and cripple their turns.
Setup defencesive perimeters; flank, intel units etc.
Population management and importing of food and water to the workers, supply lines that can be distruped on the planet.
You've played SIMCITY, chess, C&C, even those turn based hexagonal board games. I do not understand why the product does not have this depth or some of it; the better the product is the more subscribers there are. PI could be so good, players login mainly just to play that portion of it.
Please ccp, make it a game and not a chore.
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Minamel
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.01.12 12:12:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Minamel on 12/01/2011 12:12:52
Quote:
if changes go live, i see most people completely dropping it
I dont mind the more money for me :)
And to be honest Pi gives damn much (too much?) money for the time invested compared to ratting or mining.
After all i like the changes, adapt or die like every time. The only thing for me is the high base ecu cost forcing people to use a lot of heads making planet setups inflexible.
Lower base costs for ecu and higher costs for the head and everything is fine..
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Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
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Posted - 2011.01.12 14:23:00 -
[130]
At least we helped CCP on testing the new PI, invested time in setting up PI on the test server, posted about it one these forums only to get no feedback what so ever for a long time now :)
-Darod- |
Sherksilver
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Posted - 2011.01.12 15:26:00 -
[131]
For my part:
1. As stated, I definitely do not like some of the changes - it is going to make PI even more tedious than it can currently be.
But, this last couple of weeks the most frustrating this is:
We take alot of time to test it, give our opinions, and yet get zero response or explanation. It does not really take that long for a Dev to pop in, at least say thank you for the comments, and we are looking into them.
As a tester and a Software Dev, the worst thing you can do for customers, and testers, is not respond in any way to their comments or concerns.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.01.12 16:02:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Darod Zyree
At least we helped CCP on testing the new PI, invested time in setting up PI on the test server, posted about it one these forums only to get no feedback what so ever for a long time now :)
Hey, welcome to the club.
Is nice to get no feedback on your feedback, no? 
Please drop me a line as soon as you run a proposal that covers this topic and I'll support it. 
support
Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
Kal XL
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Posted - 2011.01.12 23:25:00 -
[133]
Bump.
Would appreciate a dev response, considering the proposed release date is less than a week away.
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mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
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Posted - 2011.01.12 23:58:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Sherksilver
For my part:
1. As stated, I definitely do not like some of the changes - it is going to make PI even more tedious than it can currently be.
But, this last couple of weeks the most frustrating this is:
We take alot of time to test it, give our opinions, and yet get zero response or explanation. It does not really take that long for a Dev to pop in, at least say thank you for the comments, and we are looking into them.
As a tester and a Software Dev, the worst thing you can do for customers, and testers, is not respond in any way to their comments or concerns.
They did lower powergrid use so that you can do start to finish P3 production (at least on some P3) in response to feedback.
They probably don't want to lower PG use any more in order to create some interdependence. The other feedback I'm seeing is a general dislike for the new design of the system, and it's obviously too late to do anything about that. They probably don't want to rile anyone up, that's why I think we don't have a response.
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.01.13 00:43:00 -
[135]
Originally by: mechtech
The other feedback I'm seeing is a general dislike for the new design of the system
Say what you want about the new design, but at least it involves some amount of thought. The complaints about the new system are comming from people that just want to press a re-do button every cycle rather than actually having something to do. If that's all they want it to be, they should be asking CCP to just get rid of the cycles and make the extractors set-it & forget it.
If there's going to be a mechanic that involves zero though once it's set up, it has little or no gameplay value and should be 100% automated to keep the bots from out doing humans by running 30 minute cycles 23/7.
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Ma'kal
The Imperial Commonwealth
E.Y
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Posted - 2011.01.13 01:07:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 13/01/2011 00:54:50
Originally by: mechtech
The other feedback I'm seeing is a general dislike for the new design of the system
People can say what they want about the new design, but at least it involves some amount of thought. The complaints about the new system are comming from people that just want to press a re-do button every cycle rather than actually having something to do. If that's all they want it to be, they should be asking CCP to just get rid of the cycles and make the extractors set-it & forget it.
If there's going to be a mechanic that involves zero though once it's set up, it has little or no gameplay value and should be 100% automated to keep the bots from out doing humans by running 30 minute cycles 23/7.
Truer words were never typed.
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Transfer point
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Posted - 2011.01.13 03:11:00 -
[137]
As far as those people who did all the complaining how they weren't going to do PI because of the clickfest, I'd bet $50 they won't do it now because of the drag/drop/program fest. And I'd really like to know why makers of MMO's are dumbing down their games, I wonder if there is some running bet between MMO's to see who can be the first to get their game down to where monkey's can start subscribing. As far as the idea to make it so bots can't do it, one more area with bots in isn't going to break the game anymore than it is now.
/rant
And on a serious note:
So what is happening with existing CC's ? Are they going to be changed to the new style or are they all getting wiped and everyone starts over ?
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Transfer point
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Posted - 2011.01.13 03:23:00 -
[138]
Originally by: mechtech
As for PI prices, lower extraction rates should be a good thing to you PI players, it means more demand and more profit
It's only more profit if the price increases substantially enough to cover the fact you're making significantly less product. I'm not sure how many are in the same boat but I'm making POS fuels and a bit extra which I sell off. After the change I'll still be making POS fuel but the question becomes "can I even make enogh to cover the POS requirements, let alone make some extra as personal income.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.13 05:46:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 13/01/2011 05:49:56
(scratches head about the lack of feedback that some people are wondering about)
ok first off the have almost always been a bit "eratic" at best on feedback at the best of times, this is not realy anything unusual from them. Some of the developers have always been more willing to engage in back and forth with us than others, others sit back and read the player coments because they dont want there input "fowling the waters" so to speak. the problem is that when one group is not working on something that they can show us live on sisi, they feel that them "Butting in" is more counterproductive than helpfull. Especialy when the topic is not something that they are working on.
Second the Impression I got way back was that they realy did not expect us to do what we did with layouts,(minimal lenght routes for one thing, extractors stacked on top of eachother and turning them all on at the same time and so on) and they also ran into problems with the original design that made what they wanted to do (Semi dynamic heatmaps that respond in real time to how were extracting resources for one thing) literaly imposible, what they gave us was more or less a "made to work" alfa build that oversimplified things while they went back and fixed the problems on the backend.
What we have now is actualy closer to what they originaly intended back then.
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.01.13 06:16:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 13/01/2011 06:19:26
Originally by: Steve Thomas
The Impression I got way back was that they realy did not expect us to do what we did with layouts.
What we have now is actualy closer to what they originaly intended back then.
Having spent several days playing with the new PI, there's no doubt what we've been doing is gaming a system that too... limited? to keep us from doing it, or to even suggest that were not doing it right.
The new PI is a much better system, but there's gonna be a load of players that choke when they realize that business as usuall isn't going to work. I havn't been able to nail down what my my output is going to be on Sisi vs TQ, but trying to keep things running smoothly has been an interesting dance.
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Kaori Mushuri
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Posted - 2011.01.13 09:58:00 -
[141]
From what i saw for now they actually removed every parts where thinking could bring you something in PI.
1/ Using your brain to find good spots without to have character with planetology and advanced planetology at V was possible. With the actual changes, it's over you can park you brain, even tough you find a good spot, your output is driven by your skill level, so go and skill up 3 weeks.
2/ The design of your Pi was really important and i really enjoyed optimizing my planets one by one until to reach the best compromise between having x extractors in the middle of the white zone and a crazy long link or having y extractor in the border but with a shorter link. It's actually the same now except that you can park you brain too, the new ecu system gives you the oportunity to put everything at the same place without nearly any chance of optimising anything.
The click fest was just changed to a drag and drop fest. I'm happy to learn it will help you have some thinking in the game, for me it will not.
I can understand that there was some flaw in the previous PI design, but honestly what was
changed here has nothing to see with a better gameplay, it has just become a "PI for the dumb".
Note : actually, with the storage they left us a possibility to think, i you do, you don't use it. Thanks for that.
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Zebs Clone
Minmatar
Zebra Corp
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.13 10:24:00 -
[142]
was doing pi until the click fest got to me. and i was going to take it back up after the changes, but tbh its even worse now.
like the new chart and i liek the longer cycle times
dont like taht i set it to extract say 56k /hour and then i get 53k/h so i have to go back reset and reset it to a shorter time just to get teh 56k i need and then im not even getting taht some times so back to rescan and reset.
a scan is a scan, the skills have no effect on the ecu's in either lowering cpu or grid requirment so why make it so they effect output amount.
all i see is my pos fuel costs rising and pi sucking more. knock on effects are that anything t2 is gonna cost way more to offset this.
ccp want peopel and alliances to pay dusties to fight over pi sites, you are very much mistaken if you think anyone will bother fighting over them in there current state. im hoping in 6 months you redesign this system again.
Sig removed for ranting. Zymurgist |
Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.01.13 12:29:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Kaori Mushuri
The design of your Pi was really important and i really enjoyed optimizing my planets one by one until to reach the best compromise between having x extractors in the middle of the white zone and a crazy long link or having y extractor in the border but with a shorter link. It's actually the same now except that you can park you brain too, the new ecu system gives you the oportunity to put everything at the same place...
I'm going to give WH's a crack tonight to see how that works out, but after running low-sec planets for several days, I won't be leaving my ECU pins from day to day.
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Mike deVoid
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2011.01.14 00:17:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Mike deVoid on 14/01/2011 00:17:55
Quote:
Single Planet Robotics Production Example:
4x Extractor Control Unit (Noble, Heavy, Base + Non-CS)
= 4x 2800 MW = 11.200 MW
+ at least 4x Extractor Head Units Total (Noble, Heavy, Base + Non-CS)
= 4x 552 MW = 2.208 MW
4x Basic Industry Facility (Precious, Toxic, Reactive + Chiral)
= 4x 800 MW = 3.200 MW
3x Advanced Industry Facility (Consumer Electronics, Mechanical Parts, Robotics)
= 3x 700 MW = 2.100 MW
-----------------------
18.708 MW
+ Launchpad 700 MW
=======================
19.408 MW Sad
Command Center Maximum Upgrade Level
19.000 MW
just updated Sisi client, they've changed the PG usage, may well have fixed this problem?
Extractor Control Unit PG usage changed from 2800 > 2600
Extractor Head Unit PG usage changed from 552 > 550
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Kaori Mushuri
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Posted - 2011.01.14 01:25:00 -
[145]
How could it fix anything to the actual problem ?
In the actual PI, running 4 extractors cost you 4x 800 Mw = 3200. To this you can add a nice link in the middle and you get a potential P2 planet.
Now with the new system, i want to run the same P2 production, i dont have to pay a central link because the ecu gives me the opportunity to "centralise" somehow the extractors. The cost is the following : 2x ecu = 5200 + 4 heads = 2200 for a grand total of 7400 mw ....the cost in powergrid doubled for the exact same setup.
This is a big flaw for players that were extracting more than 1 ressource perplanet, but it's still a raise for player that were extracting a single ressource too.
If you have a setup of let's say 8 extractors in 0.0, it cost you 8 x 800 mw = 6400 mw.
With the new setup, you end up at 2600 + 8 x 550 = 7000 mw.
You just lost 600 mw with the new planetary interface gameplay for just no advantage !
(note that you were extracting only 1 ressource, so you didn't have any issue of big link between extractors, so the advantage of having mobile heads is just irrelevant in this case)
What i wonder, i just why the game design team can't state clearly that there was some kind of overproduction with the planetary interraction and that they want to change the rates / balance of it ?
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Sherksilver
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Posted - 2011.01.14 03:13:00 -
[146]
That would be nice (some sort of DEV response) - heaven forbid if you are someone actually trying to do P3 on a single planet... 4 ECU's will break the bank.
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TriadSte
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.14 10:42:00 -
[147]
Id like to know why my extraction has been pretty much cut in half from 1 million p0 every 5 hours down to 450k per planet on Sisi every 5 hours.
I have very high PI skills on all chars/alts.
This means my product amount will be halved, will the price increase x2? I cannot see it as they're high already and cannot see people paying 120,000 ISK for 1 robotic.
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Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
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Posted - 2011.01.14 13:03:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Darod Zyree
Originally by: Darod Zyree
Originally by: Darod Zyree
Originally by: Darod Zyree
TUX, any word(s) from the team working on PI, on the issues/concerns people have mentioned here?
Don't leave us in the dark man :(
Originally by: Venix
Also, no Dev Replies since Dec 23rd.... are we just stuck with this mistake now?
-Darod- |
TriadSte
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.14 13:52:00 -
[149]
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Originally by: Naradak
Are the current output rates pretty much what they will be when this is implemented?
I belief they are unless we ****ed up copying some static data. It's should be more than last iteration of the new ECUs but should be almost equivalent to current TQ iirc.
Then you have indeed ****ed up, my output rates are 50% LESS of that on TQ right now and It cannot be due to skills as I have near perfect extraction skills MINIMUM of lvl4 skills :
Planetology
Adv Planetology
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Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2011.01.14 14:41:00 -
[150]
Originally by: TriadSte
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Originally by: Naradak
Are the current output rates pretty much what they will be when this is implemented?
I belief they are unless we ****ed up copying some static data. It's should be more than last iteration of the new ECUs but should be almost equivalent to current TQ iirc.
Then you have indeed ****ed up, my output rates are 50% LESS of that on TQ right now and It cannot be due to skills as I have near perfect extraction skills MINIMUM of lvl4 skills :
Planetology
Adv Planetology
Are you extracting at the same planet with the same product? Could you provide us with the setup details on Tranquility and Sisi? I didn't have that much of a loss of products.
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