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Liu Bu
Gallente Abyssal Heavy Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2010.12.20 03:09:00 -
[1]
As i was writing my other post about Loyalty's within EvE alliances i realized another point. The need for alliances and coalitions to grow bigger and bigger.
You read it everywhere complaints about blobs alliances "BATphoning" for help and general complains about the big attacking the small. The need to go bigger. But why is this?
So what is good about being BIG?? Well for most its that big alliances have more member and thus theoretically more power. This depends in major facto about the active player to member ratio, but lets not get into that. So Big = power and thus also safety in the hostile world of 0.0. But is this really true?? None of the resent war's fought by BIG alliances/ coalitions has been successful.
NC invasion of DRF = Failed IT+SC invasion of NC = Failed IT+Co invasion of Goons = Failed (delve and querious were impenetrable before Goons forgot to pay the bills)
The two coalitions have so many members to swamp a system and lag it to hell in all timezones. Resulting in the defender being ahead as SOV mechanics in EvE are simply balanced that way.
The above comparison only holds up when two seemingly equally ENORMOUS coalitions battle each other. So then it is becomes all about safety! As you need to be as big as the other otherwise you will get invaded.
So is there nothing to gain from being big?? Is its only purpose just so you can protect your space? So you can carebare happily? Mine moons and build caps ?? It seems that the smaller alliances are much more active and fun. They might get kicked out of their space once in a while. But is that bad ?? They seem o have more kills are more flexible, roam the universe and fight whoever they want to fight.
Really would like to discuss this. Get some opinions from some Big time alliances. Why their members are happy being BIG. And why they prefer safety over action.
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EI Digin
Caldari Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.20 03:46:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Liu Bu As i was writing my other post about Loyalty's within EvE alliances i realized another point. The need for alliances and coalitions to grow bigger and bigger.
You read it everywhere complaints about blobs alliances "BATphoning" for help and general complains about the big attacking the small. The need to go bigger. But why is this?
So what is good about being BIG?? Well for most its that big alliances have more member and thus theoretically more power. This depends in major facto about the active player to member ratio, but lets not get into that. So Big = power and thus also safety in the hostile world of 0.0. But is this really true?? None of the resent war's fought by BIG alliances/ coalitions has been successful.
NC invasion of DRF = Failed IT+SC invasion of NC = Failed IT+Co invasion of Goons = Failed (delve and querious were impenetrable before Goons forgot to pay the bills)
The two coalitions have so many members to swamp a system and lag it to hell in all timezones. Resulting in the defender being ahead as SOV mechanics in EvE are simply balanced that way.
The above comparison only holds up when two seemingly equally ENORMOUS coalitions battle each other. So then it is becomes all about safety! As you need to be as big as the other otherwise you will get invaded.
So is there nothing to gain from being big?? Is its only purpose just so you can protect your space? So you can carebare happily? Mine moons and build caps ?? It seems that the smaller alliances are much more active and fun. They might get kicked out of their space once in a while. But is that bad ?? They seem o have more kills are more flexible, roam the universe and fight whoever they want to fight.
Really would like to discuss this. Get some opinions from some Big time alliances. Why their members are happy being BIG. And why they prefer safety over action.
First post
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Villa Wolfsbane
Amarr Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.20 03:47:00 -
[3]
Actually, I'd have to characterise the "delve campaign" differently.
IT had just taken Fountain in a matter of days, Sons of Tangra and Event Horizon essentially folded after the battle of PNQY. Yes there were more fights, notably the Y-2 battle with goons and PL where PL lost 4 titans, but the resistance did not last long. SoT Disintegrated, Event Horizon joined NC, and PL went off to do what PL do best - and have been very successful.
Fountain was not truely secured, with Panda Team still in the area, and residual reds needing clearing out, but the campaign had wound up to it's first pause. And this was the moment that Goons dropped sov. What followed was something of a scramble, getting pilots online as rapidly as possible, with IRC pings, IM's, phone calls, anything to get people online to take advantage of Goon's mess up. The move into delve had been expected to be a 6 month campaign and a real grind, rather thana lightning strike to capitalise on a blunder like that.
So I would not characterise the invasion as a failure - the invasion of delve never actually took place and the invasion of Fountain was a stunning success.
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Wu Jiaqiu
Minmatar Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.20 04:50:00 -
[4]
Because then we can become space rich and we need more to get space richer. Its an endless cycle really until we've blued all of null sec and we begin our master plan : The invasion of high sec. Yes, thats right. Imagine an EVE where every single corp is wardecced. Nobody allowed to undock without paying weekly fees to keep them blue. Thats when you win the game.
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Soldarius
Caldari Independent Coalition
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Posted - 2010.12.20 05:19:00 -
[5]
What then? Server reset? New worlds/galaxies/universes? Meh. Never happen.
/sarcasm understood
Originally by: CCP Masterplan "I'm cruel because I love you."
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Eanae
Gallente Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.20 05:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Villa Wolfsbane Yes there were more fights, notably the Y-2 turkey shoot where no one actually shot us back with goons and PL where PL lost 4 titans, but the resistance did not last long.
Fixed that for you, the rest while filled with :smug: is pretty accurate. Delve invasion never happened and we shall never know the outcome.
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Liu Bu
Gallente Abyssal Heavy Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2010.12.20 05:57:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Liu Bu on 20/12/2010 05:59:25 Is there no one that can/wants to answer about this? Villa Wolfsbane made a valid point, but not so much on the real topic.
But lets keep in line with your statement. Lets say IT kills SW and Goons in fountain. What then ?? You are then a coalition of about 20k people and own about 8 regions. So wats next?? You going to try to invade NC? or DRF in RED alliance and White noise space?? Whats the purpose in becoming big??
Is it making RL cash from RMT?? Is that why you need save 0.0 space to rat/macro? Is it to say your the biggest??
I think loads of people playing eve are interested into the vision of Big alliances. What drives their leadership and members. Why would you spend every night attacking SBUs and stations. Is it all so in the end you can safely kill NPC rats ?? I can only see that as the real reason. Why else would you want to conquer so large areas and grow that big. Large alliance 0.0 space is the saves space around. 10 jumps in all directions nothing but blues. SO it cant be for the PvP because being Big is the exact opposite of what you should do then.
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Dzil
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2010.12.20 06:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Liu Bu Edited by: Liu Bu on 20/12/2010 05:59:25 Is there no one that can/wants to answer about this? Villa Wolfsbane made a valid point, but not so much on the real topic.
But lets keep in line with your statement. Lets say IT kills SW and Goons in fountain. What then ?? You are then a coalition of about 20k people and own about 8 regions. So wats next?? You going to try to invade NC? or DRF in RED alliance and White noise space?? Whats the purpose in becoming big??
Is it making RL cash from RMT?? Is that why you need save 0.0 space to rat/macro? Is it to say your the biggest??
I think loads of people playing eve are interested into the vision of Big alliances. What drives their leadership and members. Why would you spend every night attacking SBUs and stations. Is it all so in the end you can safely kill NPC rats ?? I can only see that as the real reason. Why else would you want to conquer so large areas and grow that big. Large alliance 0.0 space is the saves space around. 10 jumps in all directions nothing but blues. SO it cant be for the PvP because being Big is the exact opposite of what you should do then.
PVP means different things to different players. Some play freelancer online. Others play space Risk. I think it's pretty clear the vision of the Big Alliances (and coalitions/NAP packs) is to win at space Risk. Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :) |
Villa Wolfsbane
Amarr Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.20 06:15:00 -
[9]
I'm not really certain there is a problem being highlighted here - but, lets assume that 2 coalitions go up against each other - as happened in the IT/Atlas/AAA/ROL/Friends invasion of NC space.
The problem that the Southern Coalition as we bacame known ran into was with the north's ability to put sufficient pilots in a target system that for us to bring enough to counter the fleet, made the system near unplayable through node overload. This gives defenders of a critical size and up an advantage that cannot be overturned by an assailant, no matter how determined.
CCP has made massive strides in this field over the past several months, and the number of ships a system can support has been rising quite rapidly (albeit with some downward hitches as well). But we're still no way near reaching the kind of numbers in a system that a major coalition can bring when it really counts.
We've had encounters with over 3000 accounts logged into the system. I have little doubt that if CCP gets us to the stage of that being smoothly playable, that the coalitions - NC, us, goons/friends, the russians, will simply bring more fleets, to bulk the numbers up to the new ceiling.
My husband made an interesting comment when I was trying to explain the phenonema to him. He said that Eve 0.0 players really didn't want to play without lag. We want to use the creation of lag to our advantage, and will bulk out fleets up to a size where that is the case. In a sense he's right - major powerblocks clashing will never agree to limit their numbers in the field, there can be no limits placed by the game itself that will not be exploitable by the first to arrive. And we all love to win, so we bring more and more ships, to try and outblob our opponents.
The other problem is that the major powerblocks tend to have differing peak activity times, and so while initial assaults take place in the attacker's strong period, the reinforcement timers will typically expiore during the defenders strong zone - further biassing the battle to the defenders.
The numbers game is all important in high end 0.0 warfare - while player skill, especially FC skill is a factor that cannot be discounted, the individual skill of a pilot in the flet, not in a command position matters less and less as fleet size increases.
a 5 against 5 skirmish, will depend heavily on the skill of the individual pilots to determine the outcome. A 250 vs 250 will depend heavily on the FC's skill, and much less on the individual skills of the pilots, providing they meet certain minimums.
As the fleet sizes increase, the bias towards FC skill and numbers over individual skill increases. Fleet sizes are getting very big these days
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DrDooma
Minmatar 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.12.20 06:17:00 -
[10]
Numbers help but its the quality of FCs, leadership and individual players in both supporting and PVP roles that make successful alliance. Having 400 players logged in spinning their ships in stations and killing noobs in jita is just as effective as having 40 or 4000.
Every successful organisation has the core group of individuals that can rise above mediocrity. If enough of this individuals undocks at the same time enough times the rest will follow.
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Myz Toyou
Minmatar APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2010.12.20 08:06:00 -
[11]
Originally by: DrDooma Numbers help but its the quality of FCs, leadership and individual players in both supporting and PVP roles that make successful alliance. Having 400 players logged in spinning their ships in stations and killing noobs in jita is just as effective as having 40 or 4000.
Every successful organisation has the core group of individuals that can rise above mediocrity. If enough of this individuals undocks at the same time enough times the rest will follow.
Hows that getting back your tech moons from PL worked out for your quality of FCs, leadership and individual players so far ?
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Wombat942
Minmatar The Hatchery
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Posted - 2010.12.20 08:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Villa Wolfsbane Actually, I'd have to characterise the "delve campaign" differently.
IT had just taken Fountain in a matter of days, Sons of Tangra and Event Horizon essentially folded after the battle of PNQY. Yes there were more fights, notably the Y-2 battle with goons and PL where PL lost 4 titans, but the resistance did not last long. SoT Disintegrated, Event Horizon joined NC, and PL went off to do what PL do best - and have been very successful.
Fountain was not truely secured, with Panda Team still in the area, and residual reds needing clearing out, but the campaign had wound up to it's first pause. And this was the moment that Goons dropped sov. What followed was something of a scramble, getting pilots online as rapidly as possible, with IRC pings, IM's, phone calls, anything to get people online to take advantage of Goon's mess up. The move into delve had been expected to be a 6 month campaign and a real grind, rather thana lightning strike to capitalise on a blunder like that.
So I would not characterise the invasion as a failure - the invasion of delve never actually took place and the invasion of Fountain was a stunning success.
the only reason IT actually took fountain was because PL gave up totally after they lost the titans. they really never did want space like that and they only held it because of the R64s. whereas IT wanted space so badly they invited every garbage corp that ever rented a single system from them in the first place.
IT never had a chance of taking 49- and were actually getting pushed back until niart epar ****ed up and didn't pay the bills...
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Adeptus mecanicus
Caldari The Flaming Sideburn's Waterboard
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Posted - 2010.12.20 08:33:00 -
[13]
well the need to go big as OP says is a dubble edged sword coz over the years ive seen alliances grow but turn out to be a hollow shell and implode when prodded by alliance a tenh of their size, theese days having vast areas of sov and developed systems encurages this even more so due to them having to rely on gaining as mutch players as possible to maintain and make it profitable at all to keep said space either as a main alliance member or as "pet" entities.
many players leave theese alliances after a while due to being worn out by internal drama/CTAs/shere boredom of the "grinding"/and ofcorse the blob fights that eliminate personal skill of pvp to a numbers vs who the god of lag favors game.
but hey ppl play they way they prefer and if they want to be a part of a big sov 0.0 with the drawbacks it tends to pick up then its their choice
Recruitment
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DrDooma
Minmatar 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.12.20 12:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Myz Toyou
Hows that getting back your tech moons from PL worked out for your quality of FCs, leadership and individual players so far ?
Take a look for your self.
tbh, it is above my 'care to know' grade. 'They'almost never have tower wars during my TZ but when they do i join.
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Cyaron wars
Gallente Cosmic Fusion Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.12.20 13:46:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Cyaron wars on 20/12/2010 13:46:41 I'll add 1 more thing to above written.
you might have 200 members online in alliance but when moment comes you can get 50% of those members in fleet just bacause they are human and have some stuff to do in RL, some might be alts etc. This applies ot all timezones. IT alliance for example has aprox 6000 members, but nobody saw them all in fleet in 1 TZ. And if they will I think that'll be nice to watch :D
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Saxon
Gallente Pardon Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.20 14:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Wombat942
Originally by: Villa Wolfsbane Actually, I'd have to characterise the "delve campaign" differently.
IT had just taken Fountain in a matter of days, Sons of Tangra and Event Horizon essentially folded after the battle of PNQY. Yes there were more fights, notably the Y-2 battle with goons and PL where PL lost 4 titans, but the resistance did not last long. SoT Disintegrated, Event Horizon joined NC, and PL went off to do what PL do best - and have been very successful.
Fountain was not truely secured, with Panda Team still in the area, and residual reds needing clearing out, but the campaign had wound up to it's first pause. And this was the moment that Goons dropped sov. What followed was something of a scramble, getting pilots online as rapidly as possible, with IRC pings, IM's, phone calls, anything to get people online to take advantage of Goon's mess up. The move into delve had been expected to be a 6 month campaign and a real grind, rather thana lightning strike to capitalise on a blunder like that.
So I would not characterise the invasion as a failure - the invasion of delve never actually took place and the invasion of Fountain was a stunning success.
the only reason IT actually took fountain was because PL gave up totally after they lost the titans. they really never did want space like that and they only held it because of the R64s. whereas IT wanted space so badly they invited every garbage corp that ever rented a single system from them in the first place.
IT never had a chance of taking 49- and were actually getting pushed back until niart epar ****ed up and didn't pay the bills...
You mean, until IT got theyr space back in same way as they lost it.
Do not forget how goons and 65% of eve got delve in theyr hands in 1st place, if it would not have gone like that then we can see delve invasion 1 as good example of how bad IT is at holding space, or are they ? U Got pod ? |
Commanders Heaven
Gallente Pastry Productions Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.20 17:00:00 -
[17]
Like we said after the fountain compaign, it was a matter of house cleaning since goons were allready fleeing with theyr assets for theyr life.
Originally by: Villa Wolfsbane Actually, I'd have to characterise the "delve campaign" differently.
IT had just taken Fountain in a matter of days, Sons of Tangra and Event Horizon essentially folded after the battle of PNQY. Yes there were more fights, notably the Y-2 battle with goons and PL where PL lost 4 titans, but the resistance did not last long. SoT Disintegrated, Event Horizon joined NC, and PL went off to do what PL do best - and have been very successful.
Fountain was not truely secured, with Panda Team still in the area, and residual reds needing clearing out, but the campaign had wound up to it's first pause. And this was the moment that Goons dropped sov. What followed was something of a scramble, getting pilots online as rapidly as possible, with IRC pings, IM's, phone calls, anything to get people online to take advantage of Goon's mess up. The move into delve had been expected to be a 6 month campaign and a real grind, rather thana lightning strike to capitalise on a blunder like that.
So I would not characterise the invasion as a failure - the invasion of delve never actually took place and the invasion of Fountain was a stunning success.
It's the members who make the corp, and not the other way around... |
Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.12.20 17:04:00 -
[18]
Lag invasion of 0.0 = FLAWLESS VICTORY!!
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments ftw |
Oneiros IV
Minmatar Dudu Micha Stella Polaris.
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Posted - 2010.12.20 20:10:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Oneiros IV on 20/12/2010 20:14:09 Being part of major alliance does not restrict one from having "fun" and active small scale pvp. Being big brings strategical success yes but big alliances are not deprived from any activity "small and active" one may have. Amirite?
TL;DR There's no "safety vs action" like OP thinks. I see it as "Safety and action" |
KWyz
Caldari Heaven's Army Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.12.20 21:50:00 -
[20]
It's been FOREVER since i've seen such instructive posts on CAOD, I applaud both the decent people who broke away from their lurking and the veteran trolls of this section for writing such interesting stuff.
Being a mere carebear and grunt myself, I'm always at a loss regarding the motives of the EVE godfathers :).
Keep them coming please, this time i'm going for the expensive kind of popcorn.
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.12.20 23:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Wombat942
Originally by: Villa Wolfsbane Actually, I'd have to characterise the "delve campaign" differently.
IT had just taken Fountain in a matter of days, Sons of Tangra and Event Horizon essentially folded after the battle of PNQY. Yes there were more fights, notably the Y-2 battle with goons and PL where PL lost 4 titans, but the resistance did not last long. SoT Disintegrated, Event Horizon joined NC, and PL went off to do what PL do best - and have been very successful.
Fountain was not truely secured, with Panda Team still in the area, and residual reds needing clearing out, but the campaign had wound up to it's first pause. And this was the moment that Goons dropped sov. What followed was something of a scramble, getting pilots online as rapidly as possible, with IRC pings, IM's, phone calls, anything to get people online to take advantage of Goon's mess up. The move into delve had been expected to be a 6 month campaign and a real grind, rather thana lightning strike to capitalise on a blunder like that.
So I would not characterise the invasion as a failure - the invasion of delve never actually took place and the invasion of Fountain was a stunning success.
the only reason IT actually took fountain was because PL gave up totally after they lost the titans. they really never did want space like that and they only held it because of the R64s. whereas IT wanted space so badly they invited every garbage corp that ever rented a single system from them in the first place.
IT never had a chance of taking 49- and were actually getting pushed back until niart epar ****ed up and didn't pay the bills...
The strings are tied really hard on this one
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments ftw |
Imigo Montoya
Gallente Hysterically Unforgiving Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.12.21 00:17:00 -
[22]
Nice to see (mostly) constructive responses.
Success doesn't come from size. It also doesn't come from skill points. It comes from active participation and coordination.
The thing is that success is fluid because in EvE you can define your own goals. For some they may be to make a profit building ships, for some it is to shoot as many ships as possible, for others it is to take control of another constellation.
For a nullsec alliance there is a huge number of different goals and associated activities that need to be undertaken to achieve them. Without enough people to cover the full range of activities, success will likely not be achieved. And so alliances (and coalitions) grow to ensure that they have enough people working towards all the things that they need done. It's either that, stagnation, or a serious review of the group's goals.
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Garreth Vlox
Minmatar Hysterically Unforgiving Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.12.21 20:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Villa Wolfsbane Actually, I'd have to characterise the "delve campaign" differently.
IT had just taken Fountain in a matter of days, Sons of Tangra and Event Horizon essentially folded after the battle of PNQY. Yes there were more fights, notably the Y-2 battle with goons and PL where PL lost 4 titans, but the resistance did not last long. SoT Disintegrated, Event Horizon joined NC, and PL went off to do what PL do best - and have been very successful.
Fountain was not truely secured, with Panda Team still in the area, and residual reds needing clearing out, but the campaign had wound up to it's first pause. And this was the moment that Goons dropped sov. What followed was something of a scramble, getting pilots online as rapidly as possible, with IRC pings, IM's, phone calls, anything to get people online to take advantage of Goon's mess up. The move into delve had been expected to be a 6 month campaign and a real grind, rather thana lightning strike to capitalise on a blunder like that.
So I would not characterise the invasion as a failure - the invasion of delve never actually took place and the invasion of Fountain was a stunning success.
you have damage control AND bull****ting trained to lvl 5? im impressed
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Tomcat
Gallente Bad Kitty Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.12.21 21:31:00 -
[24]
The last time I wanted to "go big" I just called your mom.
This is now a WIdot thread. Carry on.
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SpotlessBlade
Gallente Night Wolves Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.12.22 05:58:00 -
[25]
TomCat has just won EVE
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Pudgy McFudge
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.22 06:05:00 -
[26]
i didn't read any of this thread how can you people type this much god damn.
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Somal Thunder
Minmatar Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.23 01:46:00 -
[27]
This thread is pointless and highlights a moot point. If large coalitions that are all blue to each other take over all of 0.0 they will declare war on each other out of sheer boredom. If one alliance, such as Goonswarm, take over all of 0.0, they will probably come up with some sort of rental agreement where the pets don't get blue standings but do get peace from any strategic operations.
It's not complicated. Organizations yearn to be the biggest and best and to own everything. This kind of **** happens all the time.
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Minx Smasher
Caldari Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2010.12.31 00:31:00 -
[28]
Truth of the matter is if we as pilots want to experience full endgame content then you NEED to join one of the big powerhouses imo. I would cite the following as some of the reasons why:
1. Numbers = eyes everywhere and generally good intel on hostile gangs. 2. Big Alliances who've been around a while less likely to die/lose much space therefore less having to move your **** out due to imminent failcascades. 3. Big Alliances and their upgrades helps you to get the isks you want for your endgame supercaps. 4. Many hands make light work and eve is more of a team game.
Whilst the above are not all of the reasons I would say those are the main ones.
Unfortunately though a side effect is you have very competent small corps elsewhere who will NEVER get a bite at the cherry because they are unable to attract players easily due to the fact they have not much to offer in terms of perks in joining, they are also hampered by their small size and thus cannot take space easily, which is a shame, most of your smaller corps end up being told to merge into an existing corp of a large alliance which is a bit ****ty but it's not gonna change anytime soon.
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Pirokobo
Caldari Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.31 06:21:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Liu Bu Really would like to discuss this. Get some opinions from some Big time alliances. Why their members are happy being BIG. And why they prefer safety over action.
Why so SRS.?
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