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Doctero
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.12.20 22:03:00 -
[1]
So it seems pretty common for miners to want new mining ships for better yields, which most of us recognize as being silly because it would just inflate the mineral market, and obsolesce the hulk.
But what about a ship that actually 1) mines SIGNIFICANTLY faster, 2) only offers a slight increased (or significantly lower) yields compared to the hulk, and 3) effectively eats roids at a terrifying speed. The main idea being that rather than creating wealth for the pilot, it is actively depleting the resource, creating a SHORTAGE of minerals and being an industrial weapon to deny mineral access to the competition / enemy.
There are many options for implementation: 1) planting bombs on the roids, which destroy them completely and leave super-concentrated ore, or some other goody, in their wake. 2) new mining laser module which acts as a REAL strip miner, depleting the roid very quickly and giving a slightly increased yield than a normal mining laser / strip miner. E.g., the laser version depletes 1000 m3 of roid, gives 100m3 of ore, the strip miner version would deplete 15k m3 of ore and give 1000m3 of ore. (purely hypothetical numbers here. I'm not a miner) 3) new ship class specifically designed for offensive mining. 4) new mining foreman link that increases mining yield but adds a depletion multiplier. 5) new module which allows existing weapon systems to destroy roids and leave behind goodies ala #1.
One huge benefit to this new pvp tool is that macro miners would have to face real threats of income denial.
TL;DR: Make it possible to destroy roids, deny mining income and create mineral shortages.
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Elana Dyson
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Posted - 2010.12.21 03:33:00 -
[2]
Sounds good to me.
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Shurikane
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Posted - 2010.12.21 04:00:00 -
[3]
There'll be polishing to be done along the way, but I think we're on to something here.
Right now I'm not sure if it can be done effectively, seeing as asteroid belts are very widespread - hence completely cutting off supply lines is bound to be a futile effort...
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Stig Sterling
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Posted - 2010.12.21 05:30:00 -
[4]
Only slightly on topic;
I remember a while back, I decided to give mining a try, I mean it cant be that bad right? And overall, I was pleased with my new carreer choice. I would actually get mining missions, which were interspersed with kill missions (to break the monotony I assume). On one such mission, I started laying into a roid (regular veldspar type mind you), and BOOM! I was obliterated by the... asteroid?
I was talking to some fellow about it, and he told me that many missions actually have booby trapped asteroids, one of which I apperently tripped.
Also, there have been a few missions where I saw proximity mines, and a few where I felt said mines.
My point I guess- if I indeed have one- is this;
We dont need new game mechanics, it looks like the ability to be "offensive" in this feild already exsists in-game. CCP just needs to open the door...
.
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Jay Wareth
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Posted - 2010.12.21 06:39:00 -
[5]
Sound good to me.
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The Paperwork
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Posted - 2010.12.21 18:47:00 -
[6]
Seems like this could be used to push more bears into low/null also, as it wouldn't take too many people using something like this in hisec before it'd be just scraps of belts and the occasional grav site to hunt down. I like it.
What about ice though? Same kind of mods for them? Getting into real numbers, seems like a single hulk can chew through about 1.5k of roid per minute, so would a comparable offensive version would be going through about 20k of roid and yield about 2k in ore?
Also, maybe this technique of mining should add some kind of depletion effect to the belt, such that it WON'T respawn for one iteration after it's consumed, or just add an extra day or two.
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Jason Travers
Space 1999
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Posted - 2010.12.21 20:08:00 -
[7]
Well what I can see happening is people setting up belts in high-sec as booby trapped. So when someone goes to mine they get blown up. I don't see that as a good idea just another way to grief. Also when you start blowing up everyone's hulks and mining ships they are not making minerals to put on the market, they are not able to make replacements and the market for both goes threw the roof due to supply and demand. Mommy that mean ole bear just dukied in my sandbox. :( |
Jay Wareth
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Posted - 2010.12.21 20:11:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Jay Wareth on 21/12/2010 20:11:38
Originally by: The Paperwork Seems like this could be used to push more bears into low/null also, as it wouldn't take too many people using something like this in hisec before it'd be just scraps of belts and the occasional grav site to hunt down. I like it.
What about ice though? Same kind of mods for them? Getting into real numbers, seems like a single hulk can chew through about 1.5k of roid per minute, so would a comparable offensive version would be going through about 20k of roid and yield about 2k in ore?
Also, maybe this technique of mining should add some kind of depletion effect to the belt, such that it WON'T respawn for one iteration after it's consumed, or just add an extra day or two.
I quit mining about a year ago, so my numbers may not quite add up. I found that I could chew through an entire .5 sec belt in about 4-6 hours in a solo, unboosted Hulk. so honestly I think 5-1 or less would probably be more balanced that 10-1. Even at 5-1 a small gang should be able to clear out a system in a few hours.
I think messing with re-spawn rates on top of the relative ease of clearing out a whole system could quickly push this into OP land.
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Jay Wareth
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Posted - 2010.12.21 20:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jason Travers Well what I can see happening is people setting up belts in high-sec as booby trapped. So when someone goes to mine they get blown up. I don't see that as a good idea just another way to grief. Also when you start blowing up everyone's hulks and mining ships they are not making minerals to put on the market, they are not able to make replacements and the market for both goes threw the roof due to supply and demand.
Well, to some extent that's the idea. Particularly as it has the potential to impact macro miners more than real players. Also, the mineral market is pretty much at rock bottom due to macros, so after you get off your hyperbolic high horse, a few dozen hulks blowing up every day and a slight upward trend in low end mineral prices might not be so bad.
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Doctero
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.12.21 20:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jason Travers Well what I can see happening is people setting up belts in high-sec as booby trapped. So when someone goes to mine they get blown up. I don't see that as a good idea just another way to grief. Also when you start blowing up everyone's hulks and mining ships they are not making minerals to put on the market, they are not able to make replacements and the market for both goes threw the roof due to supply and demand.
Yeah I am definitely not proposing the booby trap idea, Hulkageddon works just fine for that. Please stay on topic.
Strategically reducing the available roid pool, on the other hand, is what we're talking about, and the market going "threw the roof" lol is exactly what the mining profession needs to be more viable.
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Jason Travers
Space 1999
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Posted - 2010.12.21 20:28:00 -
[11]
Quote: Well, to some extent that's the idea. Particularly as it has the potential to impact macro miners more than real players. Also, the mineral market is pretty much at rock bottom due to macros, so after you get off your hyperbolic high horse, a few dozen hulks blowing up every day and a slight upward trend in low end mineral prices might not be so bad.
Well the point is that most PVPers donĘt seem to relies about a sandbox game is there are different styles of play. The carebear community is a large portion of CCPs income and they are also people with a different play style than the PVPer. We all play to have fun in different ways. When it stops being fun (this is where most PVPers get lost) people like me and the larger majority of the carebear community will quit and move on to another MMO. This will hurt the revenue of CCP and then they will no longer be able to carry the support staff they have. Eventually shutting down the game itself.
There has been no fully online PVP MMO other than Xbox style games (Call of Duty, Ect) that ever survived very long. Bottom line is when the game stops being fun for people they leave. If the company cannot make profit off an project they will shut down the money sink. That is just simple business.
Mommy that mean ole bear just dukied in my sandbox. :( |
Doctero
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.12.21 20:44:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jason Travers Well the point is that most PVPers donĘt seem to relies about a sandbox game is there are different styles of play. The carebear community is a large portion of CCPs income and they are also people with a different play style than the PVPer. We all play to have fun in different ways.
The point of this proposal is to open up a new style of play, one specifically directed towards carebears, to take different pvp actions with their mining lasers. It also makes them more useful in the context of a war effort.
What YOU don't seem to realize is that mining already IS a sort of competitive / pvp activity, and EVE IS a robust "fully PVP MMO", the largest example of which is the MARKET. Whether you're doing it indirectly (devaluing other's worth by producing a competing product), or directly (blowing up their capital) it's all pvp. And it's awesome.
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Jason Travers
Space 1999
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Posted - 2010.12.21 21:13:00 -
[13]
Most carebears do not like nor want to even take part in PVP actions because it is not fun to them. As for the fighting for roids, we just move on to another belt or system. When you FORCE people into another form of play that they do not want or like they will leave.
If it it made up where they cannot mine anymore without having to go to low-sec they will leave. When I go mining and there isn't much left in the systems that I make my rounds in and I don't feel like missioning I log off. I do not go into low-sec and will not go into low-sec. If it got to where There was nothing to mine for an extended time and I see that I'm not playing because of it. I would quit and move on to another MMO as I have done in the past, because it is no longer fun.
If you think for one second that people wouldn't use this as an opportunity to grief minors you are crazy because they would. Mommy that mean ole bear just dukied in my sandbox. :( |
Doctero
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.12.21 21:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jason Travers If it got to where There was nothing to mine for an extended time and I see that I'm not playing because of it. I would quit and move on to another MMO as I have done in the past, because it is no longer fun.
Good riddance. If that's really all you do, then you're effectively a bot anyways.
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Jason Travers
Space 1999
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Posted - 2010.12.21 21:45:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jason Travers on 21/12/2010 21:46:11 That is what I do for fun as does most of the carebear community. You might think I'm effectively a bot just because I don't play like you. To be honest that is a very narrow minded view. Every one is different and likes different things out of life. If that is too complicated for you to grasp then I'm sorry you 'll have to get over it.
I personally think that PVPers only want things their way without thinking about anyone else, and you reinforce that thought. Mommy that mean ole bear just dukied in my sandbox. :( |
Doctero
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.12.21 23:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jason Travers You might think I'm effectively a bot just because I don't play like you. To be honest that is a very narrow minded view.
No, I think you're effectively a bot if all you do in-game could be replaced (and done more efficiently) by a bot. I've trained alts to fly hulks, and alts to fly orcas, (and sold them for a profit) and I've tried a pretty wide swath of what eve has to offer far beyond that; it is not narrow-minded to suggest you do more than check a few belts for roids, and log off if you don't find any. That "play style" certainly isn't going to attract more players to eve or keep most existing ones for long.
What does any of that have to do with this proposition anyways? This is about miners mining, not blowing up ships. It's about playing the game the way you already do, but with more choices about the tools you'll use. It's about fighting bots in-game, by shooting rocks instead of ships.
If you can't stay on topic, I appreciate the bump but consider yourself ignored.
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Jason Travers
Space 1999
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Posted - 2010.12.21 23:20:00 -
[17]
Believe it or not the largest portion of CCP's clients are carebears that do not go into low-sec. If you force them they will leave, obviously you cannot grasp that. Why do you think there is such a low percentage of people that go to low sec. If you want to attract people to low-sec without losing your customer base, you need to make it more attractive to the customer. Right now the majority of customers (carebears) do not want to go someplace to get blown up when you have to fly a ship that is not a combat ship by any stretch of the imagination. And if you force your customer base to do what they do not want to do you will lose your customer base and your financial support. My god man crawl out of the basement and you'll find the world really works different than you think. Mommy that mean ole bear just dukied in my sandbox. :( |
Envious Position
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Posted - 2010.12.22 08:53:00 -
[18]
I like the idea of an ORE demolitions ship; goes in, plants demolitions, nukes the ENTIRE belt, and leaves super-concentrated ore in it's wake, or perhaps the result of ultra-compression and heat is something entirely different and more valuable. Maybe even a gas cloud?
Make the det charges cost an arm and a leg, and the demo ship itself a cov ops designation so it can get black ops portaled and fit cov ops cloaks, so it can get behind enemy lines.
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Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
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Posted - 2010.12.22 09:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Stig Sterling Only slightly on topic;
I remember a while back, I decided to give mining a try, I mean it cant be that bad right? And overall, I was pleased with my new carreer choice. I would actually get mining missions, which were interspersed with kill missions (to break the monotony I assume). On one such mission, I started laying into a roid (regular veldspar type mind you), and BOOM! I was obliterated by the... asteroid?
I was talking to some fellow about it, and he told me that many missions actually have booby trapped asteroids, one of which I apperently tripped.
Also, there have been a few missions where I saw proximity mines, and a few where I felt said mines.
My point I guess- if I indeed have one- is this;
We dont need new game mechanics, it looks like the ability to be "offensive" in this feild already exsists in-game. CCP just needs to open the door...
.
That could be funny - some kind of inexpensive boobytraps which can be used (launched?) onto Astroids...
If you use a strip miner on said astroids - BAM, AOE damage.
If you use a booby trap on a booby trapped astroid - BAMBAM, 2x AOE damage.
If you start your strip miners on 3 booby trapped astroids - BAMBAMBAM, 3x AOE damage.
Also +1 on the OP - Mining 'PvP' sounds very interesting (Even though I wouldn't take the career choice) ---
Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ And the Eve Character Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/assembler/
Also a spy. |
Doctero
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.12.23 01:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Gemberslaafje
That could be funny - some kind of inexpensive boobytraps which can be used (launched?) onto Astroids...
If you use a strip miner on said astroids - BAM, AOE damage.
If you use a booby trap on a booby trapped astroid - BAMBAM, 2x AOE damage.
If you start your strip miners on 3 booby trapped astroids - BAMBAMBAM, 3x AOE damage.
Also +1 on the OP - Mining 'PvP' sounds very interesting (Even though I wouldn't take the career choice)
Thanks for your support!
I kind of like the idea of the boobytrapping idea, it could create interesting mine-field tactics, and really mess with macro miners. But it would have to be a 0.0 thing only, as I could see AOE damage being a pretty big problem in hisec... purposely double trapping to use AOE damage on nearby targets for instance, tanking the damage and ganking the miners sounds like a EULA-breaching evasion of CONCORD.
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Ronald Raygunn
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Posted - 2010.12.23 03:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Doctero The point of this proposal is to open up a new style of play, one specifically directed towards carebears, to take different pvp actions with their mining lasers.quote]
And if you direct something only towards one group of players, you unbalance the game.
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Doctero
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.12.26 21:44:00 -
[22]
Bump.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2010.12.26 21:53:00 -
[23]
Wouldn't mission salvaging fill some of the shortage? There are a lot of untapped wrecks left over by blitzers.
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Doctero
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.12.26 21:56:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Goose99 Wouldn't mission salvaging fill some of the shortage? There are a lot of untapped wrecks left over by blitzers.
That's fine. So this proposal perhaps has the side effect of boosting mission income, for those that choose to pick up all the loot scraps. Not sure if it's worth it though.
Didn't they nerf the mineral yield from missions anyways, by reducing tech1meta0 drop rates?
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Goose99
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Posted - 2010.12.26 22:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Doctero
Originally by: Goose99 Wouldn't mission salvaging fill some of the shortage? There are a lot of untapped wrecks left over by blitzers.
That's fine. So this proposal perhaps has the side effect of boosting mission income, for those that choose to pick up all the loot scraps. Not sure if it's worth it though.
Didn't they nerf the mineral yield from missions anyways, by reducing tech1meta0 drop rates?
Yeah, and minerial prices dropped as result, due to insurance changes and mining bots responding to make up the gap. You've got a point. At least mission wrecks can't be easily botted.
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Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.26 23:59:00 -
[26]
I like it as an idea. It needs a lot of work, but I'm thinking mining charges. Drop the charges, they blow up the roids, you near-instantly get about 1/5th the minerals of the roids, roids are gone for an extended period of time.
That doesn't really achieve what I'm after, but I would like to see "mining wars" with miners going against each other, and corp V corp, for mining space etc.
There definitely needs to be some kind of penalty though. I'm actually thinking sec status. Destroying belts can't be good for the community, so doing so lowers your sec status fast enough to make anyone who goes on a bombing spree across an entire region -10 before they finish it. That way, although on a distributed level, it will boost the minerals market and make mining a bit more interesting, as well as provide a weapon against bots (concerted effort among 10 or so people destroys entire system with little effect on overall sec status, but bot is now confused), but if individuals try to abuse it, they will find themselves taking fire without concord assistance quite rapidly.
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.27 04:42:00 -
[27]
You do realize all this will do is screw over the legitimate human miners right? They will stop mining, not bother going to low sec because low sec is full of pirates who only know how to gank bears and in the end, it will be less competition for the botters.
Thus, you have boosted their income.
I understand what you would like to do, but until a way is found to get rid of botters, anything you do just hurts real players while boosting them.
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Doctero
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.01.03 10:57:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Doctero on 03/01/2011 11:00:08
Originally by: Marlona Sky You do realize all this will do is screw over the legitimate human miners right? They will stop mining, not bother going to low sec because low sec is full of pirates who only know how to gank bears and in the end, it will be less competition for the botters.
Thus, you have boosted their income.
I understand what you would like to do, but until a way is found to get rid of botters, anything you do just hurts real players while boosting them.
Don't know if I buy that. I think it would be exceptionally difficult to eradicate ALL the hisec belts, so it would probably just result in it being more challenging to find good belts. You could tweak it to do as Kara Sharalien mentioned, and destructive mining negatively affect sec status, (makes a lot of sense really!) or just yield substantially less ore in hisec. The idea being to lower the odds that indy noobs can't find a veld rock to cut their teeth on; I'd think any kind of serious miner would be out in 0.0 or w-space with the ABC roids.
Also note this scheme wouldn't affect grav sites at all, so people that scan for roids would be just peachy, and nerfing the low-hanging fruit and boosting the slightly more elusive goodies sounds good to me.
Side note: Is there ever reason to mine in lowsec? I don't know. Probably not. I'd think most bears would prefer 0.0 alliances / renters or w-space far more than lowsec.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.03 11:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Doctero
TL;DR: Make it possible to destroy roids, deny mining income and create mineral shortages.
I too appreciate that you're trying to do here, but what it would really accomplish, in the end, is just more unbalance. Serveral big corps will gain control over most mining activity, creating near monopolies, driving up the mineral prices like crazy.
I do like the side-effect of severely hampering bots, though.
--
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Raba 1
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Posted - 2011.01.03 12:46:00 -
[30]
It is not bad idea. But I prefer not effective miner but destructive weapon. One shot and there is not an asteroid. LOL
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