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DK Reborn
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Posted - 2010.12.29 02:28:00 -
[1]
I've been playing eve since 2006, and I've usually flown ammo dependent ships. The 10 second reload time gets annoying to say the least. Basically I've always wondered why no reloading skill? We have a skill for almost everything in the game as it is now. Why not add a skill to reduce reload times on turrets and bays?
For example it could be something like the following:
Reloading Optimization Skill at reloading weapon systems more efficiently. 5% Bonus to reloading of ammo based weapon systems.
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Spydrr
EOS Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.29 02:30:00 -
[2]
I like the idea!
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Janos Saal
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Posted - 2010.12.29 03:45:00 -
[3]
Reload time (and ammo cost) is the price you pay for having weapons which can deal any damage type at will.
Fit lasers.
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DK Reborn
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Posted - 2010.12.29 03:52:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Janos Saal Reload time (and ammo cost) is the price you pay for having weapons which can deal any damage type at will.
Fit lasers.
Apparently you have never used hybrid weapons, you cannot choose damage type with them. Currently most of my ships do in fact use lasers. Think before you post please.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.29 05:33:00 -
[5]
I thought Missiles were the only ammo that had the ability to select 100% of any damage type. I am sure hybrid/projectile/rail ammo all contain split damage types.
A better argument to as why there are reload timers would be, that 2/3 of the remaining types do not use cap, and the last one uses cap at a reduced rate. At least that the reasoning I see behind the ammo reloading requirement.
As for the Idea I like it. a 3% per level thing would be more reasonable though IMO because of the above reason I listed.
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Guy LeDuche
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Posted - 2010.12.29 05:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider I thought Missiles were the only ammo that had the ability to select 100% of any damage type. I am sure hybrid/projectile/rail ammo all contain split damage types.
A better argument to as why there are reload timers would be, that 2/3 of the remaining types do not use cap, and the last one uses cap at a reduced rate. At least that the reasoning I see behind the ammo reloading requirement.
As for the Idea I like it. a 3% per level thing would be more reasonable though IMO because of the above reason I listed.
That would be only 15% less time even at lvl5. How would that make any difference at all?
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.29 05:50:00 -
[7]
um 1.5 seconds is pretty decent. Considering it is basically a 15% increase to overall DoT. 25% is kind of nuts. The ships that use ammo fire with no cap or reduced cap. Essentially this 10 second reload is a balance factor in the sense that most Laser Ships can not fulltime weapons/tackle/tank, and run an MWD all at once.
If you took a Harb and a Cane out the Harb would be capless in just over 14 minutes, while the cane lasts forever just firing guns. Fit an MWD and fulltime it and the Harb drops to just over 2 minutes and the cane runs at 18 minutes and 68% stable with a nos. Add other mods like tackle or webs and times for both drop even further. Put a active tank on the harb and you can't shoot. Put one on the cane and you can.
Furthermore Nueting laser boats/hybrid boats means they have 0 outgoing DPS, while nueting projectiles/missiles can fire away.
This is why there is reload timers, and taking too much off, heavily favors projectiles, missiles, and to a lesser extent Hybrid ships.
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DK Reborn
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Posted - 2010.12.29 06:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider I thought Missiles were the only ammo that had the ability to select 100% of any damage type. I am sure hybrid/projectile/rail ammo all contain split damage types.
A better argument to as why there are reload timers would be, that 2/3 of the remaining types do not use cap, and the last one uses cap at a reduced rate. At least that the reasoning I see behind the ammo reloading requirement.
As for the Idea I like it. a 3% per level thing would be more reasonable though IMO because of the above reason I listed.
Thanks for the constructive post, 5% may be too much and 3% may be more fitting as you said for all the reasons you listed. 5% was just an estimate,I would just love to see this skill added.
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Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2010.12.29 06:54:00 -
[9]
those 10 seconds reload time make 10dps of a 800dps astarte having a skill that gives 2.5 or even 1.5 dps at level 5 is just useless imo
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.29 07:10:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 29/12/2010 07:10:52 um what? 800DPS*10 = 8K DMG lost 800*8.5 = 6800 DMG lost
6800/8000 = 15% increase to overall damage. That is pretty decent boost in my opinion.
I do not think DPS works the way you think it does.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.29 15:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 29/12/2010 07:10:52 um what? 800DPS*10 = 8K DMG lost 800*8.5 = 6800 DMG lost
6800/8000 = 15% increase to overall damage. That is pretty decent boost in my opinion.
I do not think DPS works the way you think it does.
CN heavy launchers can hold 45 heavy missiles and have a refire rate of 10.5 seconds. That means a base of 472.5 seconds of launching missiles, or about 360 seconds with max skills.
10 seconds / 370 seconds (total cycle time) = 2.7%. That means completely eliminating reload times would increase overall sustained DPS from CN HMLs by a MAXIMUM of 2.7%.
I think either DPS or reloading does not work the way you think.
*** [ SIG] ***
Wish list for PI:
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.29 15:18:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Black Dranzer on 29/12/2010 15:18:35 I can't really support this because it'd be a stealth nerf to Lasers, and reload time is a pretty key balancer. What I might be in favor of is perhaps reducing the reload time on Hybrids or something as an attempt to buff them.
|Bounty Fix|Mining Makeover| |
Karn Velora
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Posted - 2010.12.29 15:27:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Karn Velora on 29/12/2010 15:27:15
Something that might make more sense: Preparation is everything: If an auto-reload is coming up - you bet your ass the crew is on top of it, and the ammo is all ready to be shoved straight into the turrets or launchers. I don't mind seeing this delay reduced, or done away with. On-demand reloads though, are not predictable. Suddenly receiving an order to go fetch some EMP ammo - that's not a fast operation. The turret needs to be emptied, queued ammo needs to be moved out of the way, new ammo needs to be brought up from storage, prepared and loaded. This delay makes sense. It also makes sense that a captain with some logistic training would be able to make such an operation more effective: faster.
In other words... I'd like to see lower auto-reload times, without affecting manual ammo-changes. I'd also like to see a skill to reduce on-demand reload times.
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DK Reborn
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Posted - 2010.12.29 16:48:00 -
[14]
Edited by: DK Reborn on 29/12/2010 16:50:39 Edited by: DK Reborn on 29/12/2010 16:49:51 I think I should clarify I don't mean this to change the load time of different ammos. What I mean by that is switching to a different ammo is unaffected, however, what is affected is the actual act of reloading when you shoot through all your weapon has and you need to reload the SAME ammo type as before (Added to op). As for a stealth nerf to lasers good joke. Lasers can already switch to any range applicable by the 8 different crystals instantly (and they never have to reload).
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Karn Velora
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Posted - 2010.12.29 16:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: DK Reborn Edited by: DK Reborn on 29/12/2010 16:50:39 Edited by: DK Reborn on 29/12/2010 16:49:51 I think I should clarify I don't mean this to change the load time of different ammos. What I mean by that is switching to a different ammo is unaffected, however, what is affected is the actual act of reloading when you shoot through all your weapon has and you need to reload the SAME ammo type as before (Added to op). As for a stealth nerf to lasers good joke. Lasers can already switch to any range applicable by the 8 different crystals instantly (and they never have to reload).
Ah, it's just the auto-reload? In that case - I'm all for it. Auto reloads would be prepared ahead of time. It's like slamming a new clip into a submachine gun. It's a much faster operation than ordering a complete switch of ammo.
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DK Reborn
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Posted - 2010.12.29 16:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Karn Velora
Originally by: DK Reborn Edited by: DK Reborn on 29/12/2010 16:50:39 Edited by: DK Reborn on 29/12/2010 16:49:51 I think I should clarify I don't mean this to change the load time of different ammos. What I mean by that is switching to a different ammo is unaffected, however, what is affected is the actual act of reloading when you shoot through all your weapon has and you need to reload the SAME ammo type as before (Added to op). As for a stealth nerf to lasers good joke. Lasers can already switch to any range applicable by the 8 different crystals instantly (and they never have to reload).
Ah, it's just the auto-reload? In that case - I'm all for it. Auto reloads would be prepared ahead of time. It's like slamming a new clip into a submachine gun. It's a much faster operation than ordering a complete switch of ammo.
My thoughts exactly.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.29 17:20:00 -
[17]
Quote: CN heavy launchers can hold 45 heavy missiles and have a refire rate of 10.5 seconds. That means a base of 472.5 seconds of launching missiles, or about 360 seconds with max skills.
10 seconds / 370 seconds (total cycle time) = 2.7%. That means completely eliminating reload times would increase overall sustained DPS from CN HMLs by a MAXIMUM of 2.7%.
I think either DPS or reloading does not work the way you think.
You are not DPSing over that period of time, you have 0 DPS for 10 seconds. Which using the earlier example of Astarte DPS is a loss of 8000 Damage. Dropping the reload time bu just one second results in a loss of only 7200 DMG. Which is a 10% increase to your overall damage. DPS is not applicable because YOU ARE DOING 0 for 10 seconds.
Doing 0 damage for 8.5s > doing 0 for 10 seconds. It is 15% increase to your time spent inflicting damage. You can not apply it to DPS since DPS is not applied when not shooting.
It is a 15% increase you your overall damage in order to match that 15% gained damage in DPS terms you would need
8000*1.15 = 9200/10 = 920.
It is essentially an applied bonus of 120 DPS but the DPS value does not technically change you still only do 800DPS, but you apply that DPS 15% faster every reload cycle. Does that make sense? If not I don't know how else to explain it.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.29 17:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Black Dranzer Edited by: Black Dranzer on 29/12/2010 15:18:35 I can't really support this because it'd be a stealth nerf to Lasers, and reload time is a pretty key balancer. What I might be in favor of is perhaps reducing the reload time on Hybrids or something as an attempt to buff them.
o.0 Really? The 10 seconds of reloading after something like 3-6 minutes of straight shooting is big for balancing?
I mean, sure, it does make a difference in sustained DPS, but especially in PVP the goal is probably either to kill your target before having to reload OR be able to tank them well enough that the extra 10 seconds really doesn't matter.
*** [ SIG] ***
Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! [ /sig ] |
Dkamanus
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Posted - 2010.12.29 19:22:00 -
[19]
The Idea is good, and will increase damage over time (different from DPS, but might also increase the Damage per second):
Say you stay 10 min (600 seconds) shooting, and your launcher holds 20 charges, each being fired every 6 seconds (120 seconds to spend all charges). We shall disconsider the amount of ammo spent (imagine an infinite cargo hold with infinite bullets/missiles =P).
every two minutes, you'll have to reload, spending 10s reloading. We can safely say you'll have to reload 4 times:
(480 seconds = 8 minutes) + (40 seconds of reloading) + (80 seconds shooting = 13 charges go away) = (600 seconds total) = 93 charges +2 seconds of another charge after being the last one launched
You will have shot 93 charges from your launcher in 10 minutes, withouth a reloading skill:
Say we decide to decrease it 4% per skill level, totalizing 20%, henceforth 8 second reloads
(480 seconds = 8 minutes) + (32 seconds of reloading) + (88 seconds shooting = 14 charges go away) = (600 seconds total) = 94 charges go + 6 seconds after the last one launched
Since you will be firing more charges in the same amount of time, the damage over time will increase, and so will the DPS, that also count the time your not shooting (DPS also takes the time between the shots to calc its value, and in this case, DPS would increase if the reload rate came to effect). I understand what damage per second in general means, but in this case, if we count the reload rate, the DPS, thanks to a faster reload time would increase.
The increase in damage would only make a huge difference in LONG engagements (1h or more), but little effect on fast attacks and PvE.
I think this is it. Maybe 25% isn't that stupid, mostly because the difference would only be felt in VERY long engagements, and wouldn't be a huge buff for projectile/missiles. Could be a little nerf for Hybrids, due to capacitor usage, but I don't see a huge problem.
Math could use some refining, I guess =P
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.29 22:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Berikath
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider
You are not DPSing over that period of time, you have 0 DPS for 10 seconds. Which using the earlier example of Astarte DPS is a loss of 8000 Damage. Dropping the reload time bu just one second results in a loss of only 7200 DMG. Which is a 10% increase to your overall damage. DPS is not applicable because YOU ARE DOING 0 for 10 seconds.
Doing 0 damage for 8.5s > doing 0 for 10 seconds. It is 15% increase to your time spent inflicting damage. You can not apply it to DPS since DPS is not applied when not shooting.
It is a 15% increase you your overall damage in order to match that 15% gained damage in DPS terms you would need
8000*1.15 = 9200/10 = 920.
It is essentially an applied bonus of 120 DPS but the DPS value does not technically change you still only do 800DPS, but you apply that DPS 15% faster every reload cycle. Does that make sense? If not I don't know how else to explain it.
That's not how DPS works. DPS = damage per second. As in, the average damage done each second. Any half-useful value talking about reload times would talk about difference in DPS over a cycle- going from full to empty through the reload.
Let's take those CN launchers I had before (unskilled, 'cuz I'm lazy).
Standard heavy missiles do 150 damage. 150*45 = 6750 damage per cycle. 10.5 second refire rate * 45 refire cycles + 10 sec reload = 482.5 seconds. 6750 damage / 482.5 seconds = 13.9896 DPS per launcher.
10.5 second refire * 45 cycles + 0 second reloading time = 472.5 seconds. 6750 damage / 472.5 seconds = 14.2857 DPS per launcher
14.2857 DPS / 13.9896 DPS = 1.0212, or a 2.12% DPS increase from COMPLETELY eliminating reload time.
THAT is how DPS works.
You can not calculate the DPS value with inclusion of the reload timer. You are doing 0 DPS. Changing reload timer does nothing for your DPS value. It only affects the maximum damage amount. If you are not shooting you are doing 0 DPS. Hence why I mentioned earlier it increases your total damage value by 15% not DPS value.
Quote: um 1.5 seconds is pretty decent. Considering it is basically a 15% increase to overall DoT
I only mentioned DPS when this was written.
Quote: those 10 seconds reload time make 10dps of a 800dps astarte having a skill that gives 2.5 or even 1.5 dps at level 5 is just useless imo
It has nothing to do with DPS. It is not a direct damage increase, all it allows you to do is apply DPS sooner. 15% more often than a full 10 second recharge. This means that @800DPS a ship with a reload timer of 8.5 seconds will put out the same overall damage as a ship with 920DPS and a 10 second reload time. It does not change the DPS because there is no DPS there to begin with, nothing being shot = 0 DPS. A ship with a faster reload is going to out damage the same ship with a longer reload, even though their DPS will remain identical.
Do you not get it yet?
Using your numbers.
13.9896*10 = 139.896 Damage lost during reload per launcher. (no bonus) 13.9896*8.5 = 118.91 Damage lost during reload per launcher. (with bonus) 139.896/118.91 = .849 An increase of 15% of overall damage.
It is not a DPS variable. It is not a boost to your DPS, it is a boost to your overall damage. Your DPS remains the same it is constant, it will not change, the only thing that changes is your final number, it will be 15% more damage dealt over the total time. I don't know how else I can explain it.
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DrDooma
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Posted - 2010.12.30 03:10:00 -
[21]
+1 actually a good skill idea. i came here to flame and left satisfied.
"As suggested by Karn Velora this would only be applicable to actual RELOADING not the action of switching between ammo types."
I think it should target both.
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DK Reborn
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Posted - 2010.12.30 17:52:00 -
[22]
Originally by: DrDooma +1 actually a good skill idea. i came here to flame and left satisfied.
"As suggested by Karn Velora this would only be applicable to actual RELOADING not the action of switching between ammo types."
I think it should target both.
Hehe glad I was able to not let ya down. Thanks all for all the constructive feedback would love to hear more opinions maybe some dev chatter too.
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Nosferatu Zodd
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Posted - 2010.12.30 18:22:00 -
[23]
Don't forget about cap boosters and the different cap charges. Does your reloading skill apply here or only on weapon systems? Reloading plays a bigger role here than with most weapon systems.
Also weapons with less capacity and faster ROF would get more bonus than others. All weapons would have to be re-balanced.
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[Detection of ships ... a different concept] |
Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.30 19:42:00 -
[24]
How would giving a 15% speed increase to relaoding to both say AC and Blasters benefit one over the other. It is a 15% increase to both. Meaning they both sit exactly where they are now. 10 seconds is 10 seconds, 8.5 seconds is 8.5 seconds. If there is an advantage it currently exists as is.
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Nosferatu Zodd
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Posted - 2010.12.30 23:36:00 -
[25]
Shooting for 200 sec / reloading for 10 sec -> factor 20 Shooting for 30 sec /reloading for 10 sec -> factor 3 You learn this stuff at very early age. ______________________________________________
[Detection of ships ... a different concept] |
Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.31 01:03:00 -
[26]
You can not count damage that is not there as damage. You ARE DOING 0 DPS during reload times. All this does is allows you to Start DPSing earlier. 15% Earlier. In both cases you are applying damage 15% earlier. You go from losing 1000 DMG (based on 100DPS) to losing 850 DMG (based on 100DPS).
It is not a DPS value because it has nothing to do with the application of your DPS. 0 is 0. When I am not shooting you how much DPS am I doing. Relod timers are a tertiary variable that are not applicable to DPS calculations. Unlike RoF and Damage mods they do nothing to affect your applied DPS. All they effect is the duration of DPS meaning you apply more end result damage.
The only time DPS factors in this case is comparing to current mechanics. As I pointed out earlier using the 800 DPS of an astarte.
800*10 = 8000 DMG lost during reload 800*8.5 = 6800 DMG lost during reload
A 15% increase to your OVERALL damage. To get the same 15% increase you need.
8000*1.15 = 9200/10 = 920DPS. A 15% increase to DPS.
Since damage is not applied during reload you are technically not engaging your target. Which means the DPS variable is not functioning it is moot, it means Jack ****.
I give up I really do.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.31 03:05:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider You can not count damage that is not there as damage. You ARE DOING 0 DPS during reload times.
You're also doing 0 DPS between each shot. If you parse it finely enough, you're actually doing 0 DPS almost all the time and infinite DPS (yes, infinite) at regular intervals. However, looking at it this way COMPLETELY and TOTALLY negates the usefulness of the entire concept of DPS. DPS provides a uniform way to compare damage done at different frequencies. It's (Total Damage Done) / (Total Time). Downtime is included in this, because that's the ENTIRE POINT of the calculation- compare damage of things with different downtimes. Quote: All this does is allows you to Start DPSing earlier. 15% Earlier. In both cases you are applying damage 15% earlier. You go from losing 1000 DMG (based on 100DPS) to losing 850 DMG (based on 100DPS).
No it doesn't. No matter whether your weapon reloads, you go into a fight with a full clip (unless you're a complete idiot)... meaning regardless of weapon, you have several minutes of shooting time available. Reload time becomes a factor when the fight goes on long enough to REQUIRE you to reload- meaning you're talking about several minutes of data.
Quote: It is not a DPS value because it has nothing to do with the application of your DPS.
You don't "apply" DPS. You "apply" damage. DPS is not a verb. Saying you're "doing DPS" is like saying you're "doing inches".
Quote: 0 is 0. When I am not shooting you how much DPS am I doing. Relod timers are a tertiary variable that are not applicable to DPS calculations. Unlike RoF and Damage mods they do nothing to affect your applied DPS. All they effect is the duration of DPS meaning you apply more end result damage.
See above.
Quote: The only time DPS factors in this case is comparing to current mechanics. As I pointed out earlier using the 800 DPS of an astarte.
800*10 = 8000 DMG lost during reload 800*8.5 = 6800 DMG lost during reload
A 15% increase to your OVERALL damage. To get the same 15% increase you need.
No. Lets say you shoot for 2 minutes then need to reload. You'll do (120 * 800 + 0 * 10 = ) 96,000 damage. If you reduce reload time to 8.5 seconds, you'll do (121.5 * 100 + 0 * 8.5 = ) 97,200 damage. 1200 more damage. That's 1.25%.
Now, I admit, this is probably all a moot point, because I'm fairly sure you're trolling. If you aren't trolling, I'm virtually certain you're a blithering idiot.
*** [ SIG] ***
Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! [ /sig ] |
Niklas
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Posted - 2010.12.31 04:50:00 -
[28]
Yeah, reload optimization would be a nifty skill to have.
I would also approve of small turrets having a 4s reload, mediums a 7s reload, and larges the current 10s reload, to reflect the increased pace of combat for smaller ships.
But then I suggested that 5 years ago too, and still nothing. :)
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DK Reborn
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Posted - 2011.01.01 07:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Niklas Yeah, reload optimization would be a nifty skill to have.
I would also approve of small turrets having a 4s reload, mediums a 7s reload, and larges the current 10s reload, to reflect the increased pace of combat for smaller ships.
But then I suggested that 5 years ago too, and still nothing. :)
Indeed it would be! Let's add it. Lol.
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