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GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.29 16:45:00 -
[1]
I've played on Sisi and it is a nice environment to test fits and learn...basic PVP skills and mine uninterrupted if this is what you wish to do on SiSi.
It has spawned an idea for me that at the moment no one else seems to have suggested.
Much like on Sisi there should be dedicated zones around EVEdom that caters for what people want without the fear of being penalized or have your ship blown up while you're afk making coffee.
Combat free zones - Like Switzerland, neutral, and not even targeting other ships is tolerated. Good for trading and for setting up POSes but restricted to bounty free and high sec status players only.
Consensual Combat Zones - set up the same way as on SiSi with unimpeded access to and from it but with the undestanding that you are going in there to fight and die. Open to all and free for all but following the same rules as on SiSi...without the benefit of everything costing 100 isk.
Miner Friendly Zones - ore rich areas that cater for young EVE players but possibly restricted to haulers and mining barges so that it won't be over exploited.
Large NPC Spawn Zones - good for upping your sec status but not as good as ratting in 0.0. Place would be ideal for helping repenting capsuleers to regain some credibility in Empire.
Just a thought - I would welcome feedback from players and CCP alike!
GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but ships of peace are more expensive, harder to train for, and are constant targets. Make |
Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
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Posted - 2010.12.29 16:53:00 -
[2]
No. Go back to WoW. ---
Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser/Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ http://gemblog.nl/assembler/
Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to the ****ing sandbox
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GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.29 16:55:00 -
[3]
LMAO - never played WoW never intend to either just thought it would be nice to have some places dedicated to a particular event. GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but ships of peace are more expensive, harder to train for, and are constant targets. Make |
shady trader
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Posted - 2010.12.29 16:56:00 -
[4]
All idea's been suggested before. Eve is a PVP game at its core, the whole point of the high sec is that its safer not safe.
The reason that Combat is only consensual on SISI is simple, if you have just spent an hour getting set up for a test and some punk comes along and blows your ship away. You time setting up the test of the game functionally is wasted. Most of all Sisi is about testing the game functionality, if you cannot do that then you cannot report bugs to CCP.
As for Consensual Combat Zones, I have seen several thread about arena's etc and in some that CCP tried to implement something like that and the server rejected the code.
All you idea's seem to be about destroying the golden ratio by removing risk. Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.29 17:05:00 -
[5]
Well that is my point in case - each player has a career path and many choose to be miners and therefore very little combat skill or defensive tank ability - so should that player be constantly subjected to the threat posed by players who have trained up for years on EVE to be the perfect miner killing pilot?
Surely we can cater for individuals without depriving (how many EVE subscribers are there currently?) PVPers of their normally PVP fun?
I have 7 chars I chose this path because unlike others I recognise the need to specialise my toons, hauling, mining, PVP, PVE, covert ops and trading. Not everyone can afford this luxury so I'm merely suggesting that parts of the vastness of EVE can have quiet spots that up and coming players and pure miners or businessmen can travel to and be safe.
I don't think this is a compromise or a dumb down of the game. GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but ships of peace are more expensive, harder to train for, and are constant targets. Make |
Dasubervixen
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Posted - 2010.12.29 17:21:00 -
[6]
As Shady Trader said, "All idea's that have been suggested before." and rejected. There are no, nor should there ever be, any completely safe zones in EvE. Its not that kind of a game.
So live with it or do what Gemberslaafje says.
Anything done within the rules of the game is NOT griefing. Get over it. |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.29 17:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: GoldD1gger Well that is my point in case - each player has a career path and many choose to be miners and therefore very little combat skill or defensive tank ability - so should that player be constantly subjected to the threat posed by players who have trained up for years on EVE to be the perfect miner killing pilot?
In short: Yes. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.29 17:27:00 -
[8]
In long: You bet your ass they should be.
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Jokerface666
Amarr The Warp Squad
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Posted - 2010.12.29 20:23:00 -
[9]
Sorry but IF EVE and CCP goe that way, of making carabear places, where about 80 % of the miners will be and so all my targets will be and i can't get there, i will be one of the first to put my WOW-alike stamp on it and quit....
Eve is not the oh doesn't matters it's boring, and you can be an idio* to play it, but we make money game! That's what i liek on it, with killing carabears we are keeping all the kiddies away from it.
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Janos Saal
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Posted - 2010.12.29 20:41:00 -
[10]
Ultima Online did this. It started out with one huge world, open pvp anywhere outside towns, and you could PVP inside towns with kill rights. Then they introduced some mirror-world **** where nobody could gank anybody else. Guess what happened? Original world died overnight as everybody scurried over to carebear land.
No thanks.
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.29 21:48:00 -
[11]
Short answer No
Long Answer Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Correct answer, Miners can take time to train up tanking skills.
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Achima Foxx
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.29 22:04:00 -
[12]
Originally by: GoldD1gger Well that is my point in case - each player has a career path and many choose to be miners and therefore very little combat skill or defensive tank ability - so should that player be constantly subjected to the threat posed by players who have trained up for years on EVE to be the perfect miner killing pilot?
Yes, actually, they should.
nothign stops a miner from training up tank skills (actually, any miner who doesnt DESERVES to be shot down) and nothing's stopping them from training gunz/mizzilez either, and if they CHOOSE to train mining instead of combat, then of COURSE they should be subjected to the threat of players who chose the latter.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.30 01:46:00 -
[13]
Originally by: shady trader All idea's been suggested before. Eve is a PVP game at its core, the whole point of the high sec is that its safer not safe.
Actually that's not true.
Oveur clearly stated "high sec space is supposed to be safe space". Since he was the lead developer at the time one can only conclude that your statement is flawed.
Still I do not support this idea. Use Sisi instead.
--------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.30 01:58:00 -
[14]
Thank you all for your feedback and sorry I'm only replying now - so basically all is fair in love and war and carebear miners are there to supply canon fodder for PVPers otherwise a parallel is drawn to WoW. I think this a narrow minded view point - I wonder how EVE would function, then, if all miners dropped the ore hunt and took up arms instead? GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but ships of peace are more expensive, harder to train for, and are constant targets. |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Money Liberation Services Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.30 02:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: GoldD1gger I wonder how EVE would function, then, if all miners dropped the ore hunt and took up arms instead?
Bots are terrible at pvp.
Also, I find it amusing that you think mining was needed to keep the economy going. That hasn't been the case since the introduction of the drone regions.
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Portmanteau
Fumar Puede Matar
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Posted - 2010.12.30 02:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: GoldD1gger I've played on Sisi and it is a nice environment to test fits and learn...basic PVP skills and mine uninterrupted if this is what you wish to do on SiSi.
It has spawned an idea for me that at the moment no one else seems to have suggested.
Much like on Sisi there should be dedicated zones around EVEdom that caters for what people want without the fear of being penalized or have your ship blown up while you're afk making coffee.
Combat free zones - Like Switzerland, neutral, and not even targeting other ships is tolerated. Good for trading and for setting up POSes but restricted to bounty free and high sec status players only.
Consensual Combat Zones - set up the same way as on SiSi with unimpeded access to and from it but with the undestanding that you are going in there to fight and die. Open to all and free for all but following the same rules as on SiSi...without the benefit of everything costing 100 isk.
Miner Friendly Zones - ore rich areas that cater for young EVE players but possibly restricted to haulers and mining barges so that it won't be over exploited.
Large NPC Spawn Zones - good for upping your sec status but not as good as ratting in 0.0. Place would be ideal for helping repenting capsuleers to regain some credibility in Empire.
Just a thought - I would welcome feedback from players and CCP alike!
u must be new here
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GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.30 02:26:00 -
[17]
i am! and at a disadvantage lol :) GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but ships of peace are more expensive, harder to train for, and are constant targets. |
GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.30 02:33:00 -
[18]
actually yes i am relatively new to the game comared to some but I am aware and can appreciate the game dynamics - there is all of nullsec for those who want to run around killing and empire for those to afraid to get suicide ganked. The problem as I see it is that maybe empire isn't enforced enough to prevent ganking? But I still don't see why there can't be community settlements free from agro. GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but ships of peace are more expensive, harder to train for, and are constant targets. |
DrDooma
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Posted - 2010.12.30 03:04:00 -
[19]
you do realise that almost every 0.0 system in eve without a station is unoccupied most (lets say 95%) of the time right?
Find a dead end system and you will probably find that you can stay there for weeks without anyone entering local.
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GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.30 03:14:00 -
[20]
Edited by: GoldD1gger on 30/12/2010 03:16:38 I quote a very reasonable response someone sent me that tackles this quite smartly: " I don't think the game should be changed in principle. I do think think that Hi-Sec should be a more dangerous place .......... for pirates, gankers, ninja-salvagers, etc..."
OK I can live with that.
GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but ships of peace are more expensive, harder to train for, and are constant targets. |
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GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.30 03:16:00 -
[21]
Edited by: GoldD1gger on 30/12/2010 03:16:17 DrDooma when you find one evemail me the location!
GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but ships of peace are more expensive, harder to train for, and are constant targets. |
M'pact
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.30 03:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: GoldD1gger actually yes i am relatively new to the game comared to some but I am aware and can appreciate the game dynamics - there is all of nullsec for those who want to run around killing and empire for those to afraid to get suicide ganked. The problem as I see it is that maybe empire isn't enforced enough to prevent ganking? But I still don't see why there can't be community settlements free from agro.
EVE is kind of like real life in this regard. The police don't actually stop much crime before it happens, but they're around to punish the law-breakers and maybe keep them from doing it again.
You're advocating splitting the game into shards, and EVE is touted as the world's largest game universe -- it's right up at the top of the page. Your proposal will not happen.
In EVE, there are no ships of peace. ----- Marcel "M'pact" Paquet Greater impact than a planet-killing asteroid strike. |
GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.30 03:36:00 -
[23]
Edited by: GoldD1gger on 30/12/2010 03:37:03 Well said M'pact but I'm not advocating radical change to gameplay I'm merely walking the same line CCP went down when they removed learning skills suggesting that it was daunting and time wasting for new players who could otherwise benefit from training up more useful skills. I was advocating that there maybe ought to have designations that more sensitive to new players and to a point players seeking some quiet refuge.
Look guys don't get me wrong I've trawled through the steep EVE learning curve, been ganked, been scammed & scrammed, and I've broken a few rules myself. I'm content to carry on mining in systems where there a but a handful of people and then trek 28 jumps to Jita. I'm happy to take pot shots at pirates regardless of the outcome.
I honestly don't care one way or the other we choose to take it or leave it but I, likewise, don't see the harm in having (for example) an arena in high sec/empire, or a communal POS building area, or a quiet system put aside for newbie miners. Where's the harm in that?
GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but mining ships are more expensive - PVP fit your exhumer today! |
GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.30 03:40:00 -
[24]
Signature duly changed.
GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but mining ships are more expensive - PVP fit your exhumer today! |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.30 04:11:00 -
[25]
You can't really go to 0.0 and mine in a dead end system. You can't really even rat in a dead end 0.0 system. You can't really PvP in 0.0 either.
A single scout who see's you in 'their' system they never use, will alert the alliance and you will either have to leave (and probably die with your loot), log (and probably die when you log back on) or fight (and die to their blob).
You could do it for fun but profit wise it would be massively uneconomical factoring in travel, getting killed and logging off, cloaking, hiding time. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.12.30 04:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: GoldD1gger I honestly don't care one way or the other we choose to take it or leave it but I, likewise, don't see the harm in having (for example) an arena in high sec/empire, or a communal POS building area, or a quiet system put aside for newbie miners. Where's the harm in that?
The problem with this is that it is considered "instancing" (a bit no-no in terms of EvE's "single universe" principle) and once people learn that they can be "safer" doing something in a specific area/instance they will automatically go for the "safer" option... never mind that it may not be as profitable as the "riskier" option.
This is one of the big reasons why [around] 50% of the playerbase resides in high-sec and [quote a few vocal carebears] outright refuse to go into low-sec/null-sec. The idea of risk is abhorrent to them.
Rather than cater to this mentality CCP created a "compromise" of sorts. They created hi-sec (that's right, high-sec never used to exist, empire space used to be more like low-sec), which offers some degree of security but is still not totally secure (ex. you can still be suicide ganked). Likewise, they have newbie corps which cannot be war decced, but for this "privilege" you pay an 11% tax on your activities.
The general idea (and one that CCP has always been promoting) is to "encourage" players to forge their own corporations and develop their own means/tactics to ensure the safety of its members. Granted, it doesn't always work out this way, but that's the idea... collective security.
To specifically address your ideas:
- "Arenas": The idea of an arena has been tossed about for some time. It finds some support but usually ends up dying because it 1) can already be done utilizing the current mechanics, 2) making an area "non-interfereable" violates the anti-instancing ethos of EvE, 3) making the arena such that you can't lose a ship (combat stops at hull) violates the "risk" aspect of PvP (which would damage current PvP in various unknown ways)
- "Mining only areas": is another idea that comes up from time to time. The only support you will find for this idea are: 1) people who vehemently HATE PvP and/or unpredictability, 2) Macro-miners. Macros will never leave the "newbie areas" and, if there is an SP or time limit, will stop training beyond a certain point and/or recycle their characters to continue doing "risk free" farming.
My advice (and I really do mean this) is to go out, find yourself a group of people who know what they are doing, and occasionally put yourself at risk... just to see what will happen. If you survive, then you will learn that there is no greater triumph than to profit and survive doing it. For THAT is EvE. _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
GoldD1gger
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.30 04:47:00 -
[27]
ShahFluffers thank you for an elaborate and indepth response as it goes a long way to bring light to what is otherwise alomist dark art knowledge of EVE background.
The problem with this is that it is considered "instancing" (a bit no-no in terms of EvE's "single universe" principle)
Being relatively new and this being my first real cotribution to these forums I am really glad I voiced my thoughts because now I feel better in this knowledge even though my post wasn't really for my benefit. Hat off to you sir.
and once people learn that they can be "safer" doing something in a specific area/instance they will automatically go for the "safer" option... never mind that it may not be as profitable as the "riskier" option.
Very true but like you said the mechanics of EVE does kinda lend to that already as whereas finding an unused 0.0 spot is rare, finding an unused or barely used spot in empire is very possible. So I suppose I should really tout that newbies make the effort to find their niche/quiet spot.
This is one of the big reasons why [around] 50% of the playerbase resides in high-sec and [quite a few vocal carebears] outright refuse to go into low-sec/null-sec. The idea of risk is abhorrent/too much effort for them.
Yes and no really, the ethos of PVP is don't fly what you can't afford to lose. The ethos of mining...generally is avoid armed conflict at all costs because the insurance doesn't cover the cost of the ship or the fit. The loss to the pirate pales in comparison.
Rather than cater to this mentality CCP created a "compromise" of sorts. They created hi-sec (that's right, high-sec never used to exist, empire space used to be more like low-sec), which offers some degree of security but is still not totally secure (ex. you can still be suicide ganked or War Decced). Likewise, they have newbie corps which cannot be war decced, but for this "privilege" an 11% tax is levied on your activities.
Old school player are you? I never knew any of this - thanks again :)
The general idea (and one that CCP has always been promoting) is to "encourage" players to forge their own corporations and develop their own means/tactics to ensure the safety of its members. Granted, it doesn't always work out this way, but that's the idea... collective security.
Very true but again doesn't really cater for the one man band.
To specifically address your ideas:
3) making the arena such that you can't lose a ship (ex. combat is automatically stopped at hull) violates the "risk" aspect of PvP (which would damage current PvP in various ways)
No - full risk otherwise I wouldn't have suggested it that is what sisi is for.
- "Mining only areas": is another idea that comes up from time to time. The only support you will find for this idea are: 1) people who vehemently HATE PvP and/or unpredictability, 2) Macro-miners. Macros will never leave the "newbie areas" and, if there is an SP or time limit, will stop training beyond a certain point and/or recycle their characters to continue doing "risk free" farming.
Understood (pesky macro miners!)
My advice (and I really do mean this) is to go out, find yourself a group of people who know what they are doing, and occasionally put yourself at risk... just to see what will happen. If you survive, then you will learn that there is no greater triumph than to profit and survive doing it. For THAT is EvE.
I corp and alliance mine every week believe me I am well aware of the risks and have survived many suicide attacks but I re-iterate, this post wasn't for my benefit per say but I still take it all in good will and consider myself enlightened!
GoldD1gger * The art of Mining* Ships of warfare come in all shapes and sizes but mining ships are more expensive - PVP fit your exhumer today! |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.12.30 05:15:00 -
[28]
*tips hat back*
I'm not really an "old school" player (unless you count less than 2 years here "old school") but I do lurk around the forums a lot and have befriended some people who have been playing MUCH longer than myself. A lot of my knowledge comes through their experience(s) and advice. _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Money Liberation Services Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.30 07:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona You can't really go to 0.0 and mine in a dead end system. You can't really even rat in a dead end 0.0 system. You can't really PvP in 0.0 either.
A single scout who see's you in 'their' system they never use, will alert the alliance and you will either have to leave (and probably die with your loot), log (and probably die when you log back on) or fight (and die to their blob).
You could do it for fun but profit wise it would be massively uneconomical factoring in travel, getting killed and logging off, cloaking, hiding time.
You have no clue how 0.0 works. Stop posting your drivel. Learn how the game works. Then come back.
The only thing once has to do is fly to a system in npc 0.0 or relatively low truesec in normal 0.0, stay in local until the macro in the system logs off (or just ignore the macro), then start ratting. Done it before, people still do it to recover sec status. It's not rocket science.
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Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
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Posted - 2010.12.30 07:36:00 -
[30]
Quote: I wonder how EVE would function, then, if all miners dropped the ore hunt and took up arms instead?
Prices would go up. Meaning mining would be more profitable, meaning PvPers can mine to pay for their PvP ships, resulting in another status quo.
Quote: Bots are terrible at pvp.
You just won the thread.
Quote: The problem as I see it is that maybe empire isn't enforced enough to prevent ganking?
It's not supposed to be. CONCORD is there to punish anyone not abiding by the rules by destroying their ship. There have been a few discussions about pirates, ninja salvagers, gankers etc.
Pirates work fine. They can't enter highsec, so as long as you don't go into lowsec, you won't be bothered by them. Ninja salvagers work fine. If you can't protect your salvage, go play WoW. The only thing I'd be for is to remove insurance from suicide gankers (and maybe self destructors and pirates, but that's another story) to make it so that you'd actually need a real good target to make it your moneys worth.
---
Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser/Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ http://gemblog.nl/assembler/
Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to the ****ing sandbox
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