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LiBraga
NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.31 12:16:00 -
[61]
Once again... use the right ship for the task.
Caldari are the kings of PvE with a few exceptions... Domi is great for afk missioning. Missiles or drones have always been best for missioning. Rails / Blasters have always been poor for missioning. This isn't a failure of the Gal but the weapon types versitility (limited to damage type, multiple targets at multiple ranges and speeds). PvE is nothing like PvP so do not, I repeat, DO NOT use PvE observations in a thread about Gals combat effectiveness.
I fly Cal, Gal and Amar.... guess what bs I fly in fleets... a Mega... do I appear under all the Amar / Minmi ships on the killmails... no. OK, I'm not at the top but I got a bigger buffer and thus survive more often than the other races (mucho luv to ya logis) due to logis having extra time to rep me.
I'll repeat it just one more time... USE THE APPROPRIATE SHIP WITH APPROPRIATE FITTING FOR THE TASK --------------- What! Caldari have dps now... noooo Aye, T2 HAMs FTW!!!!! |
Pan Dora
Caldari Organization for Nuclear Research
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Posted - 2010.12.31 18:22:00 -
[62]
Originally by: LiBraga the old some ship must sux argment
There is something very wrong when you are forced to crosstrain to be minimaly competitive in common not specialized activie. As a caldari pilot I know that we are labeled 'kings of PvE' and 'non PvP' race but still there is several descent choices to evey kind of pvp out there where I will have a significant contribution, not the best tool for the job at hand but not screwed because I only fly caldari. Unfortunately the limitation of hybrids and drones make the situations where IF race == gallente THEN screwed END pretty common, leading to some pilots to 'think outside the box' but the great majority to abandon the race as whole. This is a major problem to a sandbox game, the loss of diversity realy hurts the game. Its hardly a case of the changes that put gallente in that situation being bad changes, actualy it added value to the game as a wholle. However the game needs something to make gallente a bit more viable as a whole race.
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I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game. |
fukier
The Unpodable Supermen
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Posted - 2010.12.31 18:35:00 -
[63]
Originally by: LiBraga Once again... use the right ship for the task.
Caldari are the kings of PvE with a few exceptions... Domi is great for afk missioning. Missiles or drones have always been best for missioning. Rails / Blasters have always been poor for missioning. This isn't a failure of the Gal but the weapon types versitility (limited to damage type, multiple targets at multiple ranges and speeds). PvE is nothing like PvP so do not, I repeat, DO NOT use PvE observations in a thread about Gals combat effectiveness.
I fly Cal, Gal and Amar.... guess what bs I fly in fleets... a Mega... do I appear under all the Amar / Minmi ships on the killmails... no. OK, I'm not at the top but I got a bigger buffer and thus survive more often than the other races (mucho luv to ya logis) due to logis having extra time to rep me.
I'll repeat it just one more time... USE THE APPROPRIATE SHIP WITH APPROPRIATE FITTING FOR THE TASK
is that a rail mega? or blaster mega?
as for the railthron yeah its ok... rails have goodish rof but lowest alpha lowest tracking lowest dps... why not fly an abbadon or apox? those have more alpha/dps and ehp then the mega... so what gives?
and great the domi is great if you have to take a poop and still want to finish the mission?
personally imo rails need an alpha boost (not to make them as high as beams... lets say 15% less alpha then tachions for 425's) which calculates to increasing the base damage by about 30%...
now blasters are a whole nother story all together... to fix those you need to add lots of tracking and personally i think a falloff boost would be nice addition to let blasters shoot further then webber range... i would love to see a 35% increase to base falloff...
as for you apearing above minni ships on the km... thats either the minnie pilots have way way less sp then you or they must have started shooting the ship before them... attero benevolentia! caveo cavi cautum censura! Remember Your Hell Is Someone Else's Heaven
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zcar300
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.31 20:11:00 -
[64]
Originally by: LiBraga I thought the main bonus for tanking that Gal received was an active boost to armour reps. Now call me crazy but doesn't this imply that typically fitting plates instead of reps is "out-of-the-box" thinking for them. What you have here is where pilots think that because they can fit a big buffer (which slows them down dramatically) then it's intended. What's happening is that a tactic that has a major flaw is being used and pilots are complaining about it. If your going to use buffers as tanks then you need smaller tackle ships to hold the target until you get in range (ideally a ceptor with a scram to kill mwd) at which point you use your tackle (which you still have as your tank isn't in the mid slots).
So let me reiterate this for you...
BUFFER = Fleet Warfare (with pilots performing dedicated tasks in ships for the job) ACTIVE TANK = Smaller fleets (where speed is needed due to ships performing multiple roles)
You can hit a screw in with a hammer but its the wrong tool for the job.
Any race can be good in a gang.
Active tanks use way to much cap along with hybrids. I think that is why a lot of people try to use a buffer tank.
Take a look at the projectile vs hybrid guns. If you look at small t2, the tracking speeds are about the same but the long range damage modifier on the artillery is more then the short range blasters. So they can do more damage from outside web range then we can do with our best guns inside web range.
With an active tank we spend half or more of our tank just getting in range.
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:40:00 -
[65]
People use buffer tanks in PVP because active tanks just aren't sustainable. A couple neuts and your day is ruined. Plus Hybrid ships need cap to run their guns and MWD which conflicts with active tanking.
Add to that the fact that active armor boosting rigs have the same speed penalty as buffer rigs and you end up screwed to the power of 10.
What's wrong with Gal is that they have the wrong weapon system. There ships just can't take advantage of them due to their other limitations.
Honestly if you just gave Minmatar Hybrids and Galente Projectiles most of the balance problems in the game would evaporate.
As it stands today pretty much anything other than another Gal ship can either keep range or tear us up while closing.
I think when the majority of effective fits for a ship ignore some or all of it's bonus's that this is a major indication of a problem. When this applies to an entire race it's a huge problem.
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InColdBlood
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Posted - 2011.01.04 17:14:00 -
[66]
How about this for a solution:
Take a look at the word hybrid. It means a melt between two systems.
Lets go from there...
Why not let ammo deside how the weapon works. If a player loads rail ammo the gun will fire as a rail. If the player loads blaster ammo it will work as a blaster.
2 guns in one. A hybrid.
Both rail and blasters suck so much that combined they just about make a decent weapon.
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Papa FireDance
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.04 18:15:00 -
[67]
Originally by: InColdBlood How about this for a solution:
Take a look at the word hybrid. It means a melt between two systems.
Lets go from there...
Why not let ammo deside how the weapon works. If a player loads rail ammo the gun will fire as a rail. If the player loads blaster ammo it will work as a blaster.
2 guns in one. A hybrid.
Both rail and blasters suck so much that combined they just about make a decent weapon.
It's not a hybrid between weapon designs, it's a hybrid energy/projectile weapon system. Besides the fact that your idea would just make a non-specialized monstrosity that can't do anything well and does everything poorly, it just doesn't fit with the lore or design of the turrets. If you want two rolled into one, grab some Pulse Lasers. Even smalls can hit optimally out to 25km with good skills and a ship build for optimal. No other weapon system compares to Laser ranges.
The fact of the matter is that there is a dichotomy in EVE; if a ship is "veratile", that means it doesn't do anything well and does everything mediocre. Gallente ships are, imo, more "versatile" then infamous Matari ships. Gallente have Drones, Rails, and Hybrids. Often, their ships are designed to use two of these systems. Some ships can work with all three.
This leads to a design problem; how to balance a ship that can, effectively, do everything?
Take, for instance, the Vexor. In my opinion, the most powerful basic cruiser, along with the Arbitrator. What do these ships offer? Versatility that works! Versatility that does not relegate them to being useless. For instance, they pack drones as primary DPS, which allows them a multitude of fittings, both defensive and offensive, that work very well. They are relatively speedy. The Vexor is how to make a flexible ship right!
That's my take on the problem; Gallente ships are too flexible, and they suffer for it when trying to make use of a weapon system that is not balanced for flexibility. Blasters/Rails need a ship designed to use and, imo, most gallente "gun boats" are not designed properly.
TD;DR - Gallente ships are not designed properly to use Hybrids(particularly Blasters) and need a fundamental redesign.
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Every time your ships burns, it takes a thousand souls with it...but not you! |
Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.04 18:56:00 -
[68]
Actually the Vexor is a good case in point to show ship design flaws.
Here is another ship who's best fits ignore a bonus. The best way to fit a PVP Vexor is to flat out ignore it's hybrid bonus and fit a 1600mm plate and a rack of small auto's and maybe a neut.
The Vexor ends up working because people use some out of the box thinking to make it work. It also works for the same reason that Domi's work. It can forgo one of it's bonus's (Hybrid damage) while maintaining most of it's DPS (drones).
The problem that Galente have is multi-faceted.
Active tanking armor tanking has several problems that are hard to fix when it comes to PVP. for one it's too damned fitting intensive when combined with Hybrids, I mean come on a LAR2 takes 2300PG !!!. and it takes 2 to put anything resembling a credible tank. and while reppers and resist mods don't slow them down the rigs that boost active tanking do which generally makes them slower than their their shield conterparts and all the signature penalty in the world isn't going to let a medium blaster hit something orbiting at 20km.
Add to that the fact that it takes cap which is also required to run the weapons and the webs and scrams and prop mod needed to get into range in the first place requiring the use of a PG hungry cap booster oh and the only real hope you have of closing range in the first place is using the PG and cap hungry MWD.
So you're trying to shoehorn an insanely PG hungry repper with a PG hungry MWD and a PG hungry cap booster to run PG hungry guns.
All this to get a ship that is about as agile as a wallowing barge and has the range of a nerf bat and pretty much no DPS advantage vs the alternatives because you can't FIT NEUTRONs with all the rest.
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InColdBlood
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Posted - 2011.01.04 20:30:00 -
[69]
papa firedance: "It's not a hybrid between weapon designs, it's a hybrid energy/projectile weapon system."
One might argue it can be whatever you want it to be, after all, we are talking about redesigning!
If you want to boost both systems too much I think many will object. Combining the systems is actually a big change, not just a "non-specialized monstrosity" as you call it, making it sound as if not even combining them is enough to add strength.
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betoli
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Posted - 2011.01.04 20:35:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Honestly if you just gave Minmatar Hybrids and Galente Projectiles most of the balance problems in the game would evaporate.
Sorted.
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Papa FireDance
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.04 21:00:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Skex Relbore Actually the Vexor is a good case in point to show ship design flaws.
Here is another ship who's best fits ignore a bonus. The best way to fit a PVP Vexor is to flat out ignore it's hybrid bonus and fit a 1600mm plate and a rack of small auto's and maybe a neut.
The Vexor ends up working because people use some out of the box thinking to make it work. It also works for the same reason that Domi's work. It can forgo one of it's bonus's (Hybrid damage) while maintaining most of it's DPS (drones).
You are correct, in fact my personal Vexor uses Autos instead of Hybrids. However, my point was that, because it is not designed to use Hybrids exclusively, it is well designed. The Thorax, on the flip side, is designed to use Blasters, and it really does fail in most scenarios because it is fundamentally flawed in design; it's bonuses are pointed towards longevity, not speed or agility.
Quote: The problem that Galente have is multi-faceted.
I absolutely agree, there is no one cause, it is a multitude of problems.
Quote: papa firedance: "It's not a hybrid between weapon designs, it's a hybrid energy/projectile weapon system."
One might argue it can be whatever you want it to be, after all, we are talking about redesigning!
If you want to boost both systems too much I think many will object. Combining the systems is actually a big change, not just a "non-specialized monstrosity" as you call it, making it sound as if not even combining them is enough to add strength.
Granted, you could do it if they wanted to in a complete redesign. But honestly, if they combined both systems so it was a good turret, it would be too good. Fact is, EVE is a series of counters; no one ship/turret/ammunition type should be good at everything.
If they managed to make a Blasterailgun that worked as well as each do now, in game, why would anyone use Projectiles or Lasers? Sure, Blasters aren't great right now, but Rails aren't that bad. Being able to be deadly at 150km and 500m in one turret? Sounds like missiles without the downsides =P
Conversely, if the turrets were balanced and just "ok" at doing either one, players would rather select the right tool for the job and use one of the close or long ranged variants to better specialize themselves rather than gimping themselves at their main role for marginal use in another.
But that's my thought; In EVE, everyone and every ship has a role. It should be encouraged to specialize and master your role, so that the whole can be a better working machine. As much as I'd LOVE to havea Blasterailgun
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Every time your ships burns, it takes a thousand souls with it...but not you! |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.04 22:42:00 -
[72]
1. Balance fitting requirements of hybrids so that they can be mounted on Gallente hulls without needing to use large numbers of fitting mods. (or increase PG of Gallente hulls). Blasters and Rails are not OP, why do we need fitting mods to put them on our ships?
2. Introduce rigs geared to Gallente hulls. Webifier rigs, hull rigs (increase hull buffer). A great idea brought up here is that active armor tanking rigs should not affect speed (perhaps affect agility instead?).
3. Add drones that help Gallente hulls - small and medium webifier drones. 2-4% speed penalty for small webifier drones, 4-8% speed modifier for medium webifier drones. Give those Gallente hulls a chance to catch fast ships.
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Bronya Boga
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.05 01:46:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Conor Todaki Why do so many people say gallente suck when i see people getting owned by them every day?
cuz they require player skills instead of character skills
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