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Obsession Paranoia
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Posted - 2010.12.30 00:47:00 -
[1]
I'm not seeing why the Golem would be a better mission runner? yeah, it has the tractor beam bonus, but for pure speed at killing lvl 4 missions, the Rattlesnake seems to take the prize. The bonuses on it are absolutely fantastic, drone bonuses for those pesky frigates and torp bonuses for the bigger things.
Worth going for, or am I overlooking something?
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Zombie Jeebus
Amarr Alt Holdings llc
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Posted - 2010.12.30 02:01:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Zombie Jeebus on 30/12/2010 02:02:39
With perfect skills and equivalent fits a Rattlesnake and a Golem put out similar dps, with the golem having around 50 more dps on the fits I had. The main difference is play style.
A Golem is active tanked, relying on it's 4 boosted* torps for dps and drones for assistance.
A Rattlesnake is, pretty much always, passive tanked and relying on its drones for dps and it's 4 non boosted** torps to assist the drones and draw aggro.
Pick the one that matches your skills and styles and profit :)
*The Golem gets a 100% bonus to torp damage, effectively making 4 launchers 8, and get a bonus to explosion velocity to help damage smaller ships and a 50% velocity bonus to help range. **The Rattlesnake gets the same velocity bonus to torps, so it has the same range as a Golem, but doesn't get the damage or explosion velocity bonus.
This is not the alt you are looking for. |
Trina Selena
Gallente Equitas Mortalitas
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Posted - 2010.12.30 02:02:00 -
[3]
"100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage,"
That is effectively 8 launchers for the golem.
Drones for the Rattlesnake may be effective, but others prefer the raw dps that the golem can provide in the form of its launchers.
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Birdman Ravo
Legion of The Birds
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Posted - 2010.12.30 02:50:00 -
[4]
The Rattlesnake's damage output is mainly drones. Using heavy drones for damage in L4s will offer you the same experience as a Dominix: Pull aggro, launch drones, sleep while dippy drinking bird pecks F1, mission done. Only the Domi does it for about 1/10 the price.
The Golem by EFT has similar damage output. In reality target painting and torp bonuses let the Golem put more damage more effectively on the target more quickly. It's high alpha will save volleys, which is a (the) time saver.
So I vote Golem.
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Gilbert Drillerson
Varorra
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Posted - 2010.12.30 03:17:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Gilbert Drillerson on 30/12/2010 03:19:21 Rattlesnake no doubt (to me). Train sentries 5 and use t2 sentries and you will do good damage up to almost 90km. There is NO lvl 4 mission (that I know of) that will be able to kill a passively tanked rattler with t1 rigs, t2 drones, t2 cruise missiles and t2 mods.
Golem on the other hand, does better DPS but do rely on expensive faction/officer mods to be able to do all missions (have I heard)... so start training gallente BS 5, caldari BS 5, sentries 5 and go get those rats :-) http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0902/gs.gif Dont get mad - Get even |
Jayme Meladi
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Posted - 2010.12.30 04:14:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gilbert Drillerson Edited by: Gilbert Drillerson on 30/12/2010 03:19:21 Rattlesnake no doubt (to me). Train sentries 5 and use t2 sentries and you will do good damage up to almost 90km. There is NO lvl 4 mission (that I know of) that will be able to kill a passively tanked rattler with t1 rigs, t2 drones, t2 cruise missiles and t2 mods.
Golem on the other hand, does better DPS but do rely on expensive faction/officer mods to be able to do all missions (have I heard)... so start training gallente BS 5, caldari BS 5, sentries 5 and go get those rats :-)
Golem can do all missions with a tech 2 fit, it just benefits so greatly from faction/deadspace tank/DPS mods that it's actually worth it to put them on a Golem. Triple TP golem rips through missions so fast it's hard to comprehend.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.30 04:22:00 -
[7]
golem! golem! golem!
rattler is good for afking missions, but might as well get an ishtar or domi for that for way cheaper.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.30 05:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Obsession Paranoia The bonuses on it are absolutely fantastic, drone bonuses for those pesky frigates and torp bonuses for the bigger things.
Worth going for, or am I overlooking something?
The Golem can actually hit for 100% damage with the torpedoes. The Rattlesnake cannot. A rattlesnake will do more damage with cruise missiles than with torpedoes.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Aichi Awara
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Posted - 2010.12.30 06:16:00 -
[9]
Umm... Forget t2 heavies.
The proper way to go is to have t2 sentries and then you're talking business. Delayed damage versus instant damage.
As mentioned earlier, you can use drones -even sentry ones- to kill pesky frigates while using torpedoes against bigger targets. You can one shot frigs at distance and and when they're dead you have nice added torpedo damage against larger ships combined with instant damage from sentries.
I have been spamming missiles from Tengu, Nighthawk and drones from ishtar so I would presume there might be some sort of base to my statement.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.12.30 11:37:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Aichi Awara The proper way to go is to have t2 sentries and then you're talking business. Delayed damage versus instant damage.
+1
The only time I would use heavy drones is in missions versus Angel Cartel where the battleships end up orbiting at 8km due to there being so many of them that I can't blow them up on approach. My Bouncer IIs seem to have trouble hitting anything closer than about 15km.
Serpentis love orbiting at exactly the right distance for Garde IIs to wreak merry havoc upon them.
My own money is invested in a CNR/Dominix duo. Remember that the Dominix can also mount weapons in the high slots, so it's not just drones you're relying on for damage.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
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Dark Piper
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Posted - 2010.12.30 13:48:00 -
[11]
They basically cost the same (no gear) but Rattlesnake is usable in level five missions. I havent heard of any Golem being used as such.
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Yob tvay'matar
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Posted - 2010.12.30 20:19:00 -
[12]
Lol@ Rattle being used in lvl5's. Last time it was used was in highsec lvl5's long time ago. Well maybe can still be used today if you're the only one in local, but gl with being alone in system with l5 agent. I believe OP asks about lvl4's and in those Golem is much faster in practice than Rattle. Proof that EFT doesn't show the whole picture.
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coolzero
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.30 21:44:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gilbert Drillerson Edited by: Gilbert Drillerson on 30/12/2010 03:19:21 Rattlesnake no doubt (to me). Train sentries 5 and use t2 sentries and you will do good damage up to almost 90km. There is NO lvl 4 mission (that I know of) that will be able to kill a passively tanked rattler with t1 rigs, t2 drones, t2 cruise missiles and t2 mods.
Golem on the other hand, does better DPS but do rely on expensive faction/officer mods to be able to do all missions (have I heard)... so start training gallente BS 5, caldari BS 5, sentries 5 and go get those rats :-)
on paper the rattlesnake looks nice in practice its not all that great
on lvl 5 its the ship to have due to its tank on lvl 4 it just doesnt do to well on damage..again in practice(ive flown the rattlesnake) you damage will reduce a lot when you have to retract your drone, some missions auto attck drones when you pop them out..there be trigger and spawn will target your drones(no such thing as real afk missioning other then using a bot)
retractng you drone will take time and will be killed($$$ will be lost :P) even if you have max sentry drone skills(i have) and it only takes a second to pull them in everytime you do the damage you do will go down the drain.
thats mostly the reson i sold mine and gone back to CNR( and now golem) Jack of all trades, master of none...
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Trebor Whettam
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Posted - 2010.12.31 12:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Yob tvay'matar Lol@ Rattle being used in lvl5's. Last time it was used was in highsec lvl5's long time ago. Well maybe can still be used today if you're the only one in local, but gl with being alone in system with l5 agent. I believe OP asks about lvl4's and in those Golem is much faster in practice than Rattle. Proof that EFT doesn't show the whole picture.
The changes to level five missions definitely killed the demand for Rattlesnakes. They excelled in that role and only that role.
I'm not sure how anyone could look at the EFT numbers for the Rattlesnake and Golem and conclude that the Rattlesnake would be better for level four missions. First of all, the Golem does more raw dps with just missiles than the Rattlesnake can manage from both its missiles and drones. Then there's the range (rattler can't do both the sentry augmentor and the bay thruster rigs), missile explosion velocity, and TP strength factors. EFT shows all of these things. All fault lies with the user if they don't see them.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.31 17:35:00 -
[15]
There is no point in using Torps on any ship that doesnt have expl velocity/radius bonuses. Unless of course you want to lose 2 tank slots for painters (minimum) and lose 3 rig slots for rigors/flares. Or fly around with a gang that mass paints and webs your targets.
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Actrom
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Posted - 2010.12.31 19:22:00 -
[16]
Going to tak on to this as aposed to starting my own thread.
I have flown the golem for a long time now, its a tripple republic painter fit with faction torps.
My issue comes in the fact that i absolulty destroy battleships no contest its the smaller faster stuff that actually slowls me down (cruisers, and frigs, bc's die supper easy).
That being said i am now fitting out my rattlesnake to attempt it and compare, to take advantage of the range of sentries and the fact i have no cpu i am planning on running fury or faction cruise missiles. What shines on this (from eft damage graphs vs angle ships) are againts cruisers and smaller i get more damage applied to the target then my golem by a large amount and this makes me happy. The additon of the new salvaging ship also helps out alot as befor it exsisted i salvaged as i went with the golem, often having to come back wih an industrial to pick up crap so the extra trip for the salvager is allready being made.
Here was my golem fit.
[Golem, New tank setup] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Domination 100MN Afterburner
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager II
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Here is my new preposed Rattlesnake fit.
[Rattlesnake, Mission Cruise fit] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Domination 100MN Afterburner Republic Fleet Target Painter Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor II Large Core Defence Capacitor safeguard I [empty rig slot]
Anyone who passive tanks this ship is a moron, its tank is very very good as an active tank with the right mods, infact between the 2 fits well over 100 more dps is sustainably tanked from the rattlesnake (with ab's and salvaging stuff off).
The rig slots were kinda silly as the sentry damage aug II uses 300cal leaving me with 50cal left so i just tossed in a sheild rig the one that did the ebst for my tank.
The golem is sitting at 1120dps (1188dps with warriors i fight angles) The rattlesnake is sitting at 797dps with bouncers
So i am lossing nearly 300dps, however i beleive (have not tested) i should be able to make up for that with my ability to kill small stuff extreamly fast cruisres and frigs with either bouncers, warriors, or berserkers. as well as not having to worry about range. (need to test this). Also my golem soffers from alot of overkilling (applying way to much damage to a target then is required to kill it).
This all has to be tested for feel and speed but i am hopeing for the best.
I Would very much like some input into my fits, for reference i have perfect missile skills, gal and caldari bs 5 and my drone skills are starting to get up there.
Also no idiots with passive fits i am in no mood to wast slots for no reason. |
Doom Viper
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Posted - 2010.12.31 21:41:00 -
[17]
hrmm, i think you are all wrong...
nighthawk, with command ships 5, medium missile specialization 5
NH kills BS fast, small stuff fast, medium stuff fast... and the ship moves fast by default compared to battleships. Can be fit to passive tank or active tank any L4 mission, and the ship is cheaper than a golem or rattlesnake.
I fit gisti-x type large shield booster, 1x gist a type small, boost amplifier, and two hards, usually CN invuln and 1 racial specific, with 3 x CN ballistic, and 2 power diag II's.
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4 LOM
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.31 22:16:00 -
[18]
Edited by: 4 LOM on 31/12/2010 22:18:43 Tengu > nighthawk.
Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.01 08:32:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Actrom
My issue comes in the fact that i absolulty destroy battleships no contest its the smaller faster stuff that actually slowls me down (cruisers, and frigs, bc's die supper easy).
In a Golem with 3 TPs, you should be one to two shotting T1 cruisers.
IME, by the I'm done killing cruisers and up, my drones have finished off the frigates.
Quote: What shines on this (from eft damage graphs vs angle ships) are againts cruisers and smaller i get more damage applied to the target then my golem by a large amount and this makes me happy.
Yes but... battleships have ~25k hp whereas cruisers have ~5k hp. So you're now killing bigger stuff more slowly.
And you may get more damage applied to the target, but are you going to kill the target faster with Fury missiles? Torpedoes have big raw damage numbers and have a faster firing rate than cruise missiles. The Rattlesnake doesn't have a RoF bonus, giving you a 9 second RoF versus a 7 second RoF on the Golem.
And npc defenders are going to be a tad detrimental to your cruise missile DPS.
And sentry drones can't always be matched to the NPC's weakest resist unlike a pure missile boat.
You might be a tad overly optimistic in your Rattlesnake v. Golem comparison.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Actrom
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Posted - 2011.01.01 09:31:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Actrom on 01/01/2011 09:32:30
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Actrom
My issue comes in the fact that i absolulty destroy battleships no contest its the smaller faster stuff that actually slowls me down (cruisers, and frigs, bc's die supper easy).
In a Golem with 3 TPs, you should be one to two shotting T1 cruisers.
IME, by the I'm done killing cruisers and up, my drones have finished off the frigates.
Quote: What shines on this (from eft damage graphs vs angle ships) are againts cruisers and smaller i get more damage applied to the target then my golem by a large amount and this makes me happy.
Yes but... battleships have ~25k hp whereas cruisers have ~5k hp. So you're now killing bigger stuff more slowly.
And you may get more damage applied to the target, but are you going to kill the target faster with Fury missiles? Torpedoes have big raw damage numbers and have a faster firing rate than cruise missiles. The Rattlesnake doesn't have a RoF bonus, giving you a 9 second RoF versus a 7 second RoF on the Golem.
And npc defenders are going to be a tad detrimental to your cruise missile DPS.
And sentry drones can't always be matched to the NPC's weakest resist unlike a pure missile boat.
You might be a tad overly optimistic in your Rattlesnake v. Golem comparison.
thanks for the constructive feedback, my logic was simple currently i spend most of my time killing frigs and cruisers, the rattlesnake should hadle frigs a hell of alot better then my 5 warrior II's from my golem, thus hopefully speeding things along.
I have reviesed my logic and decided it might be best to go with a torp Rattlesnake the dps numbers are much closer, at 957 dps from the torp rattler while still providng me with the increased flexibility of a drone boat, however its only a dual paint fitting (1x omni and 2x fed painters). droped out the sentry damage rig for missile range rigs, but that might not be needed really as most ships do come very close and i have the sentry's to hit at the big ranges anyways incase something does not want to come play (i fight angles).
So i could apply the torpedo damage to the battleships and pick off the small stuff fast with senty's until they got close. I just really like the idea of having sentries and bonused warriors to help speed things along. But i need to make up my mind on a fit because of the rig cost. If i decide that the golem was more effective then i simply get back in the golem.
If i take that same setup and drop one of the range rigs and go down to tech 1 rigs i can get to 996dps, however my eft range value is sitting at 36.7km quite a bit lower then a dual tech 2 range rig setup (45.9km effective to about 40km). However i need to find 1% more cpu somewhere... and looking at my fit it would probably have to be a black eagle drone link and those are around 200m if not more if i remmeber corectly. hate being 3 cpu over out of 878 lol. (maybe i have that plant in the cryastal clone... dont remember dont think so).
So many tradeoffs so many decisions between these 2 ships, gona have to try em and find out i think. with the torp fit being only 130dps lower then the golem does not feel so bad... but loosing the range, a painter and the bonus may make it alot higher then 130dps... but gainging the drones for small stuff might make it less.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.01.01 10:39:00 -
[21]
You're overthinking and overworrying about frigates. It's a non-issue for a Golem.
Any left-overs frigates/elite frigates (not killed) by the T2 lights can be killed easily with torps and 3 TPs (or even 2 TPs). In addition, you'd be surprised at what T2 mediums can do to frigates with 2-3 TPs on it .. though I almost never do this as there is simply no need to go through the hassles of exchanging drones.
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Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
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Posted - 2011.01.01 14:15:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Florio on 01/01/2011 14:15:16 A sentry rattlesnake can stomp on rats out to 93km. How does a torp Golem pilot take out those at-range rats? (I have genuine ignorance on this point.)
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.01.01 19:19:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Florio A sentry rattlesnake can stomp on rats out to 93km. How does a torp Golem pilot take out those at-range rats? (I have genuine ignorance on this point.)
Cruise Rattlesnake yes? Why bother. Use the CNR (or any other good Minmatar gunboats). Quoting EFT ranges with disregard to damage types & falloff really looks good on paper. The Golem will always be a short-medium range boat (< 60km), that will never change.
The Rattlesnake will never beat any of the above boats in their primary roles in terms of missioning efficiency. The few reasons (non-exhaustive) why you'd use one is :
a) you love drones. b) you love taking your sweet time for the missions. c) you love how it looks. d) you love to passive tank because you miss the Drake's passive tank. e) you like to be different for the sake of being different. f) you hate how the Domi looks.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.01.01 22:15:00 -
[24]
g) you like to watch movies/do the laundry/eat dinner/ect. and make some isk at the same time
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Actrom
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Posted - 2011.01.01 22:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Originally by: Florio A sentry rattlesnake can stomp on rats out to 93km. How does a torp Golem pilot take out those at-range rats? (I have genuine ignorance on this point.)
Cruise Rattlesnake yes? Why bother. Use the CNR (or any other good Minmatar gunboats). Quoting EFT ranges with disregard to damage types & falloff really looks good on paper. The Golem will always be a short-medium range boat (< 60km), that will never change.
The Rattlesnake will never beat any of the above boats in their primary roles in terms of missioning efficiency. The few reasons (non-exhaustive) why you'd use one is :
a) you love drones. b) you love taking your sweet time for the missions. c) you love how it looks. d) you love to passive tank because you miss the Drake's passive tank. e) you like to be different for the sake of being different. f) you hate how the Domi looks.
Thanks again for your input, I do have extensive experiance witht he golem and know that frigs are my issue. I will give the torp rattlesnake a try, worst comes to worse i simply go back to my golem.
Alot of why i am doing this is wanting a change in how i rate, or at least an option.
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De BuG2
Gallente Rise on Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.02 02:38:00 -
[26]
well... a mach beats all these, so there ya go
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Mazer Jujube
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Posted - 2011.01.06 19:42:00 -
[27]
And what exactly is so wrong with a passive fit rattler? Perhaps I don't feel like dropping billions for a faction fit that barely yields 10-15% bonus towards EHP, DPS, speed, whatever. With T2 passive I can afk any L4 mission for cheap as all hell.
Also, just cause you don't like the rattler doesn't mean we have to hate it too. ("Stop liking what I don't like fffffuuuuu")
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.01.06 20:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mazer Jujube And what exactly is so wrong with a passive fit rattler? Perhaps I don't feel like dropping billions for a faction fit that barely yields 10-15% bonus towards EHP, DPS, speed, whatever. With T2 passive I can afk any L4 mission for cheap as all hell.
Also, just cause you don't like the rattler doesn't mean we have to hate it too. ("Stop liking what I don't like fffffuuuuu")
it is slow and inefficient at actively running missions, wouldn't say people are hating on it, they just see other ships as better options.
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Mazer Jujube
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Posted - 2011.01.07 02:35:00 -
[29]
Right then, for pure unadulterated speed at doing missions, triple TP golem. However I still feel the rattler is a perfectly valid option. Consider since it has drones, less isk to spend on ammo, for example.
Also, if you've already skilled up on drones and have good sentry skills, the rattlesnake is a good choice for that damage bonus. Take out targets quickly and efficiently with warriors for frigs/intys.
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KWyz
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Posted - 2011.01.07 02:54:00 -
[30]
Isn't a rattlesnake a much safer option for lazy/busy people? Wouldn't a ship designed for passive tanking,thus having massive amounts of shield and EHP, be very difficult to take down in a highsec gank, making it a viable alternative for known ganking systems?
A golem easily falls prey to just a few alpha BS, that's a given.
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