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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire
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Posted - 2010.12.31 23:32:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Jenny Cameron
Now I'm not a PvP veteran but:
1) Unlike most other games, losing ships cost money, which will inhibit people's wish to fight against the odds ("just for fun") anyway; 2) Unlike most other games, losing implants cost money, which will inhibit people's wish to fight against the odds ("just for fun") anyway; 3) Unlike most other games, EVE fully supports neutral reppers; 4) Unlike most other games, "warp to fleet member" means that it's very very easy to get reinforcements in from lightyears away; 5) Huge buffer tanks means it takes quite a while to take people out, which means you have plenty of time to get reinforcements in from lightyears away; 6) Unlike most other games, EVE has killboards where not only your wins are mentioned but also your losses, which will inhibit people's wish to fight against the odds ("just for fun") anyway;
All these factors make it that people think twice before they engage in PvP.
agreed. Why would I pvp, when I know that eve-warriors suck and bring 3 to 1 to ensure the win. Also why would I expect anyone to put up an equal force for the fight. Eve warriors suck on the whole and have no skill, they avoid fair combat at all costs.
A warrior is the one who challenges his combat skills with the opponents. Sucky warriors, are wannabes who struggle to be strong and prefer to take the cheap wins. I've seen good players in RTS, RPG and FPS. Bad players just want to win, they don't get 'why good players play'. The answer is - they enjoy combat. Bad players enjoy wins and fame.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire
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Posted - 2010.12.31 23:38:00 -
[92]
Originally by: TaluxA I don't think Sun Tzu has anything to do with Eve at all.
Actually I always thought people being unwilling to engage in relatively even fights ends up becoming a disadvantage for them. So many fights just don't happen because people have to wait until they're sure they will win with no losses. So it ends up with everyone just warping out or logging off and being bored instead. Maybe a solo roamer will get ganked but to be honest I don't even bother participating on those killmails a lot of the time.
As far as nullsec goes that kind of no risk attitude is moronic. I can't count the number of times there's been two even gangs ready to engage but one runs off, and loses a few stragglers in the process. So instead of say getting seven kills each the gang that runs loses a few ships for no kills. This happens over, and over, and over. Not to mention situations where whole alliances just abandoned their space and lost loads of isk in the process because it looked like a hard campaign.
No risk players are also kinda useless as far as 0.0 goes. Any successful alliance knows it's more about simply getting people in ships, in fleets and motivated to keep fighting than to be winning every fight. The people who always warp in at 50 or fly vagabonds in big gangs and do rubbish bin dps at 30km are just useless, really.
EVE is crappy, killing people is mostly fun and costs ships. But killing ships gives mostly no reward! The wreck doesn't compensate for the effort, and several t2 mods don't pay for the expenses. If only PvP gave more rewards, imho, alliances should always pay out for the enemy kills, at least 20 mill per ship killed, then fragging things for fun makes sense.
PvP should have more rewards to it. Cash, capture enemy ship, etc. Without it pvp is mostly excuse for boredom.
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Call187
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Posted - 2011.01.01 02:54:00 -
[93]
i think all of you still dont understand the difference of wow and eve online.
this game is not DESIGNED for "pvp for fun and lulz" . Every fight matters.
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2011.01.01 03:35:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Call187 Every fight matters.
Killmails are like sperm. Every one is sacred.
And it's embarassing if you have a bunch of bad ones. ______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Sigma Special Tactics Group Fleet Coordination Coalition
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Posted - 2011.01.01 03:39:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Luminos
Originally by: Call187 Every fight matters.
Killmails are like sperm. Every one is sacred.
And it's embarassing if you have a bunch of bad ones.
Great. Guess what tune is going to stick in my head now.
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.01 03:47:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Originally by: Luminos
Originally by: Call187 Every fight matters.
Killmails are like sperm. Every one is sacred.
And it's embarassing if you have a bunch of bad ones.
Great. Guess what tune is going to stick in my head now.
"Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is great, If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate..."
Love that movie.
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.01.01 04:11:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Damien Khan I've gone out looking for fights in smallish 3-5 man gangs every night for the past week and the only engagements we got were when we were blobbed by groups of 30 or more, or covert ops ganked. EVERYTHING else docked up/cloaked up the second we appeared in local or tried to play station games with us.
It's pretty obvious you wanna influence the rules because you fail at PvP.
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente United Mining And Distribution
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Posted - 2011.01.01 04:16:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Lederstrumpf It's pretty obvious you wanna influence the rules because you fail at PvP.
Ah yes, nobody wants to fight except in a massive one-sided blob. That means the guy willing to fight against (reasonable) odds is the one who fails at PvP. Well spotted
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Selinate
Amarr Wardens of the Void
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Posted - 2011.01.01 05:21:00 -
[99]
Back when I still had my caldari character, I remember I was in a corp where the CEO randomly hooked up with some pirates and flew around, ganked some folk, got into some fleet fights, then came back to high sec and had a good story to tell.
Moral of my shortened story: Grow some balls and go fight some pirate folk in low sec.
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Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2011.01.01 05:54:00 -
[100]
One thing I've learned is that everything is one-sided, and nothing is fair, ever.
Ensure you've got the upper hand.
Fair is some bull**** made up in a fairy tale.
The best fights are the ones you win where you should have lost.
And being epic is better than having a high KD ratio.
The PvP is right there! Don't be afraid to go after that rupture in that belt in your frigate.
Pop that crusader before his gang kills you!
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire
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Posted - 2011.01.01 06:23:00 -
[101]
Chokepoint camping, neutral remote repairs, lagg tactics, container spam - all this is terribly wrong, should go away to give eve decent pvp ground.
Dishonest opponents don't deserve a game, this is why they don't get PvP much. Try to be weaker, compensate the numbers with skill and tactics, do not stack the odds. At least don't do unbalanced one way fights and the enemy might grow to respect you.
Gank - the only stupid thing that has no point to it. Griefing is another example of unjust PvP.
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Lion Around
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Posted - 2011.01.01 06:37:00 -
[102]
I've never gotten a pvp kill, and the pvp I've experienced were all gate camps or wormhole jumps. And always, always, always, I got plastered within 10 seconds or less by a blob of 10 or more. There is no such thing as a fair fight in Eve. You either have the numbers to crush your enemy or you run like hell. Nothing in between, at least not if you're smart. I have never been on the winning side of a pvp fight. Even when my old high sec alliance had a war dec on it, the ENTIRE alliance hid from the war targets instead of fighting. My corp tried fighting them and lost horrendously. That alliance fell apart within a week after the war ended. PvP in this game can have devastating consequences to high-sec indy corps/alliances that aren't skilled or prepared for combat. Therefore, if the win isn't guaranteed, you bet your ASS everyone's gonna run like hell.
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PeHD0M
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Posted - 2011.01.01 07:42:00 -
[103]
People play MMO games to have fun. If they avoid pvp in eve, that means it isn't fun for them. Possible reasons: 1. server/client/isp lag 2. they lose a lot of their time to not fun activities to replace their loss (travel time, slow UI, not fun pve etc.) 3. don't like to play unbalanced fights, where you don't have a chances to win (outnumbered or outclassed fights) 4. simply don't like when their ship is getting blown up 5. prefer other activities
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Space Pinata
Amarr Discount Napkin Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.01 09:07:00 -
[104]
Protip:
Just because you try to only engage in fights you're sure to win doesn't mean you will succeed. Your enemy is trying to do the same.
This is called strategy and tactics.
If you want fair fights forever go play an FPS or something.
I don't mean to be rude about it, but that's how EVE is. Losing doesn't mean you respawn in 10 seconds, it means you have to go through the trouble of buying/fitting/transporting a new ship, possibly a new clone and implants, making the isk to pay for that ship, etc.
Basically, if you're rich you've given yourself an hour of chores, and if you're not you've given yourself several hours of chores.
That is why no one wants to lose. Because it's not fun to replace ships. It's not that they can't, it's not that they're omg scared, they just don't want to deal with it.
This is the same way you're not scared of having a long wait at a doctors office, but you're not going to show up late to your appointment to get off on the 'risk' of possibly having to do so. |
Merdaneth
Amarr Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2011.01.01 10:10:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Ghoest Using game mechanics to avoid getting ganked IS PVP in an economic game like EVE.
So quit whining and learn how to play.
Most PVPers who come in whining like this really mean - "I want easy mode where I can gank people coming through gates and always win."
Only EVE isn't an economic game. EVE is the game where people are willing to spend hours on roams, translating in a huge economic loss. EVE is the game where people are willing to spend an hour to avoid getting ganked in their 20 million ship while their hourly income is 40million isk.
EVE is the game where people are willing to pay a huge sum to avoid incurring a (humiliating) lossmail.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Clytamnestra
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.01.01 10:30:00 -
[106]
I think it's important to realize that when CCP talks about a PvP game, they don't mean only activating your modules in such a fashion that the other guy goes pop. They also mean things like market shenanigans where you undercut the competition, or buy out all of their sell-orders and resell at a marked up margin price. Or when you do high-sec salvaging, that's pvp without even a shot fired. Then there's industry PvP, like T2 blueprint hoarding cartels. And let's not forget the politics of large corps and alliance. And let's not forget getting spies into other corps, and perhaps cleaning out their hangars.
There are a myriad of ways that you can play the antagonist to other players in this game. That's all pvp too ain't it?
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Yazus Kor
Kotharat Logistics
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Posted - 2011.01.01 11:23:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Damien Khan Post
TLDR, OP is terrible and can't catch anyone.
"Beware, you who seek first and final principles, for you are trampling the garden of an angry God and he awaits you just beyond the last theorem." |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.01 11:55:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 01/01/2011 11:57:38
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: Damien Khan people will always avoid fights unless they're guaranteed to win
Well, duh. Would you willingly go into a fight you know you going to lose?
Yep, done that often enough. As long as the ship i flew wasnt too expensive and i had a reasonable idea it would be a good fight.
You know, not everyone plays this game for their k/d ratio, some actually want fun.
Tbh i know most eve players get a fit when mentioned, but some kind of arena system (where your losses do really matter) would be awesome imo. Stupidest thing is that the most heard counter argument is that then people would pvp there all the time: In other words the problem would be that people would have fun
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Musashi IV
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Posted - 2011.01.01 12:21:00 -
[109]
Why dont I take my hulk and flip it on its back. This way you can get an easy kill!
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Voren Drait
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Posted - 2011.01.01 12:23:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Voren Drait on 01/01/2011 12:24:07 People playing exactly the way they want to play in a game whose main attraction is being free to play exactly the way, any way, you want to?
PROPOSTEROUS!
I demand action!
This post may or may not be sarcastic.
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Sagacious Z
Minmatar Megaton m3 Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.02 21:50:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Damien Khan One of the biggest problems with eve's PVP sytem right now is that there are just too many tools players have at their disposal to dictate engagements. Everything from local as an intel tool . . .
Agree re local. There is always the "fog of war" in both real life war and in war games. Local should not be perfect. The neat thing is nonperfect local would encourage more player interaction trying to get better intelligence, along with misinformation, etc.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.01.02 22:06:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Sagacious Z
Originally by: Damien Khan One of the biggest problems with eve's PVP sytem right now is that there are just too many tools players have at their disposal to dictate engagements. Everything from local as an intel tool . . .
Agree re local. There is always the "fog of war" in both real life war and in war games. Local should not be perfect. The neat thing is nonperfect local would encourage more player interaction trying to get better intelligence, along with misinformation, etc.
This is one of the key issues, along with the d-scanner overhaul. CCP need to grow some and implement this, carebear/macro-user mob angst notwithstanding. ...
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Damien Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.02 22:25:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Space Pinata Protip:
Just because you try to only engage in fights you're sure to win doesn't mean you will succeed. Your enemy is trying to do the same.
This is called strategy and tactics.
If you want fair fights forever go play an FPS or something.
I don't mean to be rude about it, but that's how EVE is. Losing doesn't mean you respawn in 10 seconds, it means you have to go through the trouble of buying/fitting/transporting a new ship, possibly a new clone and implants, making the isk to pay for that ship, etc.
Basically, if you're rich you've given yourself an hour of chores, and if you're not you've given yourself several hours of chores.
That is why no one wants to lose. Because it's not fun to replace ships. It's not that they can't, it's not that they're omg scared, they just don't want to deal with it.
This is the same way you're not scared of having a long wait at a doctors office, but you're not going to show up late to your appointment to get off on the 'risk' of possibly having to do so.
What's fun is having fights, win or lose. Replacing ships that have been lost impacts me in no way whatsoever. CCP could penalizes losses all they wanted, even making podkills mean permadeath of your character. It wouldn't change the way I play at all because, frankly, I don't feel in any way inconvenienced by the downfalls of losing. I just want fights. It works like this:
Everything leading up to the fight = boring The fight = fun Everything after the fight = boring
And really, i don't care one little bit whether I won or lost as long as the fight itself was fun. Problem is, I don't find fights. Only people who run when they aren't 100% certain they can win without expending any effort whatsoever. And really, when all I'm looking for is combat, what's the deal here?
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gpfwestie
Gallente Westie Engineering
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Posted - 2011.01.02 22:36:00 -
[114]
Too lazy to read thread,
Probably covered allready,
Join RvB for lulz and killz.
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Rvlxnx
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.03 04:42:00 -
[115]
Originally by: gpfwestie Join RvB for lulz and killz.
^ this or have you tried joining a faction for faction warfare? also try expanding your ranges out into 0.0. sometimes the news when you are at char selection can give you an idea of where to go. HAVE FUN, GOOD LUCK, FLY WELL, FLY SAFE! |
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2011.01.03 05:07:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 03/01/2011 05:08:31
Originally by: Luminos it's embarassing if you have a bunch of bad ones.
The only people who care about KMs are those who work so hard to have good ones. No one else thinks it defines who they are.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Space Pinata
Amarr Discount Napkin Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.03 05:27:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Space Pinata on 03/01/2011 05:28:00
Quote: What's fun is having fights, win or lose. Replacing ships that have been lost impacts me in no way whatsoever.
Quote: Everything leading up to the fight = boring
Quoting for self-contradictory BS.
Unless you have someone to pay for AND fit AND transport all your ships so all you do is jump into them, losing the ship means more 'leading up to the fight', which means less fun.
Do you not understand that? Even if you're a fail ISK buyer, you still have to spend time buying, fitting, and moving ships to wherever the action is.
Quote: Everything leading up to the fight = boring The fight = fun Everything after the fight = boring
EVE is full of dumb grunts who hate strategy, and think "BLOB SHOOSTS BLOB" is like, the greatest hard-on thrill ever.
By the time 'the fight' happens, the outcome is already set in stone. You're just f1-ing along for the ride to an inevitable outcome.
@ Anyone who feels this way: EVE is honestly not the game for you. Go play something where you can fight 24/7. Those games exist.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2011.01.03 05:40:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Space Pinata By the time 'the fight' happens, the outcome is already set in stone.
By who has the most supercaps and/or sub cap fodder.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Agent Known
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Posted - 2011.01.03 05:40:00 -
[119]
Don't forget the SURPRISE! factor of PvP...that is ~3 caps dropping on your 4-5 man game because they can.
It's how people like to play. I don't see the point in fighting it because people will either 1) play the game that they spend $15 a month to pay for, or 2) find a different game that they want to play their way. I wonder which one most people will choose... On another note, I also have an annoying sig. |
Louis Vitton
Kickass inc Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.03 11:14:00 -
[120]
PVP is a players choice and local is a very good tool for pvp also. If you want fights travel to 0.0 and you will get some.
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