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xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.04 21:50:00 -
[1]
Recently, I have noticed that Logistics ships are insanely overpowered.
I personally can fly them all, and I own two guardians, two basilisks, and a scimitar at this moment.
That said, I have fought small and mid-sized gangs with 2-3 logistics ships, and they are simply too powerful.
Under realistic battle scenarios (e.g. some confusion, moving ships, etc), two or three logistics ships can easily rep the DPS from a gang of 10-15 HACs/BCs. Two or three logistics ships also can withstand an unacceptable amount of ECM. Even with two or three dedicated ECM ships, it is difficult to break the spider chain of three logistics ships.
I know that my alliance uses LARGE gangs of Logistics ships in major fleet fights (15-20+ logi ships). Under those conditions, ECM rarely matters, and in fact, in major fights (200 vs 200 +) ECM is rarely fielded. Under these conditions, Logisitcs may still be overpowered, but can sometimes be defeated by sheer alpha strike DPS from massed BCs/BS. In large gangs, ECM ships are popped first anyways.
It is in small gangs that logistics provide an unfair advantage, and are not sufficiently countered by their natural enemy, ECM ships.
My proposed solution: reduce Logistics sensor strength substantially. This will not matter much in large fleet battles, because again, ECM is not heavily used in such battles. But lowering sensor strength (maybe 2-35%) will make ECM a more ôreasonableö counter to almost unjammable logistics ships in small gangs.
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William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.01.04 21:52:00 -
[2]
Nerfing logistics? They don't need it. Just ECM the f*ckers! -
I troll stupid people. |
xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.04 21:53:00 -
[3]
Originally by: William Cooly Nerfing logistics? They don't need it. Just ECM the f*ckers!
See above. Requires unfair amounts of dedicated ECM to stop logi chains.
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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2011.01.04 21:55:00 -
[4]
+1, logis need to be looked at.
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Daneel Trevize
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2011.01.04 22:21:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 04/01/2011 22:21:38 You're saying 1 logi ship can't be jammed by 1 jammer ship? I mean, if he's fitted depending on his mates to stay alive and help the rest of the gang, I think it's only right it takes more than 1 jammer to knock him/1 of his support out. But I'd expect a whole rack of ECM from a ewar bird can overcome 1 logistic's eccm, or make him overheat the eccm mod til it's burnt. |
xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.04 22:29:00 -
[6]
In my experience, a well skilled alt in a blackbird with a full rack of amarr ECM could not really "break" a single guardian. My main with max skills in a rook with a split rack also failed.
So yes I would say a logi with eccm takes at least one ECM ship, which is OP because ECM ships don't last long on field when they dedicate their full rack vs one logi in a 15 man gang fight.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.04 22:32:00 -
[7]
Feck nerfing them. After running some of the higher level incursions and getting our entire fleets ass handed to us on a sansha platter they need a boost.(and yes everyone was working together and such.)
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R3d L6dy
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Posted - 2011.01.04 22:35:00 -
[8]
Ever thought about using medium and large energy neutralizers? The other day I saw a 3 guardian chain go to hell because of it and stuff started dying.
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xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.04 22:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: R3d L6dy Ever thought about using medium and large energy neutralizers? The other day I saw a 3 guardian chain go to hell because of it and stuff started dying.
I an man enough to admit that I havent tried this. I'll get back to you.
Meds don't do sh*t though, need large I'm sure. (so no love for HAC gangs)
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.04 22:56:00 -
[10]
3 Racial ECMs from a blackbird will keep a guardian with one ECCM in jammed about half the time (~45% if he overloads)
If there's 2 guardians you jam one and shoot the other (BTW if you fit the BB to counter a guardian-supported gang, he can put 6 jammers on one guardian and keep him jammed 75% of the time)
If they have 3 RR ships then you really shouldn't be complaining that one 10million isk cruiser isn't enough to counter them. Bring 2. Problem solved. |
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xxxak
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.04 23:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cambarus 3 Racial ECMs from a blackbird will keep a guardian with one ECCM in jammed about half the time (~45% if he overloads)
If there's 2 guardians you jam one and shoot the other (BTW if you fit the BB to counter a guardian-supported gang, he can put 6 jammers on one guardian and keep him jammed 75% of the time)
If they have 3 RR ships then you really shouldn't be complaining that one 10million isk cruiser isn't enough to counter them. Bring 2. Problem solved.
That was not my experience. I think I got one jam off in ~3 min on the field.
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Tammarr
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Posted - 2011.01.04 23:54:00 -
[12]
Someone who flies logis alot is likely to have either halo or eccm implants in addition to 1 or 2 eccm modules fitted.
If logis warpin at range, two unbonidamps will make their lockrange <30km.
If logis are close, trippelweb the primary and ecm drones+neut the other twos. The web is the realy important thing to enable turrets to hit awesome. Its only ~4k dps two guards can tank a third for, if they dont get staggereneuted etc. The primary guardian dosent matter, all ewar(except painters & webs)/capwar on the other two.
Web them, paint them and flip them over. Dont just fit point, cap booster, ...a web maybe... and an mwd to all ships in a gang, be creative in what you bring to enhance your groups ability to deal with threats.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.05 00:04:00 -
[13]
Originally by: xxxak
Originally by: Cambarus
That was not my experience. I think I got one jam off in ~3 min on the field.
Get better skills with ECM then, as one jam in 3 minutes means a roughly 15% success rate. Base rate with no skills for ONE jammer is 9.something%. Assuming he has one ECCM, with perfect skills one jammer will jam him more than 20% of the time. If you're going up against people who field a lot of guardians, one blackbird with 4-5 amarr jammers should be enough, bringing more in if they field more RR.
You either were very unlucky, didn't match your jammers up or found some other way to screw up. |
Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.05 01:46:00 -
[14]
The problem is using ECM as the counter.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
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Posted - 2011.01.05 08:14:00 -
[15]
I, too, would like to nerf teamwork in my multiplayer games.
Will these terrible threads ever stop?
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2011.01.05 08:54:00 -
[16]
Yes nerf them to hell, not because I believe they are OP or anything I merely find the concept of healers in a spaceship game offensive.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.01.05 09:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: xxxak ...It is in small gangs that logistics provide an unfair advantage, and are not sufficiently countered by their natural enemy, ECM ships...
"Natural enemy" my ass, I thought you said you flew the things. You are doing it wrong .. quite literally. If ECM is not working for you then they probably knew you were bringing it and stacked all available midslots with ECCM + some remotes.
Since you have apparently developed a reputation of using ECM (or you have a spy, take your pick) perhaps a change in tactics is needed. Bring tons of neuts next time, bring down cap of all but one logistics while you vaporize the remaining .. even with a cap chain the repairers will stutter at best.
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Jason Marshall
Gallente Mad Bombers HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.01.05 09:57:00 -
[18]
Ive noticed when my corp uses logis, our regular enemies dont really seem to know how to fight them. A curse can shut down a dual gaurdian gang. Or DPS spplied to them can push them out of the fight temporarily or permanatly depending on how good tackle is.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.05 09:57:00 -
[19]
As logistics pilot: Boni is not a word (really stop using it to whoever used it in this topic)
I dont use halo implants or similar, pretty much no logi pilot in 0.0 will use them.
If you cant really **** someones day up with one dedicated ECM ship per enemy logistics you are doing something horribly wrong.
If you cant kill a guardian supported by one other guardian with 10-15 BCs/HACs you are doing something horribly wrong.
In large fleet fights dampening guardians is very effective.
In small gang fights just neut the **** out of them. If you got HACs, bring a curse. Targeting time dampening might also help.
In the end to counter guardians it is just a matter of applying sufficient tackle to actually hit them and a fleet that knows how to shoot the primary target. Neuting/ECM'ing his guardian friends (or other logistics) works fine.
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LordInvisible
Gallente Nova Ardour
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Posted - 2011.01.05 11:21:00 -
[20]
there is more ways of shutting down 2 guardians in small fleet then shutting down 2 falcons..
nerf ECM IMO.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "For me EvE wasn't that much fun, many ppl refer to it as a nicely designed database front-end and that |
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2011.01.05 11:43:00 -
[21]
Inb4 "nerf everything that isn't active BS playing station games".
Nerf dynamics!
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Daniel L'Siata
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.05 13:25:00 -
[22]
Neuts. There, problem solved.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2011.01.05 13:36:00 -
[23]
Any ships in the right combination especially if its common knowledge to pvp'ers of their tactical advantages will be powerful. They may even appear overpowered. Its up to CCP to determine if they are through either listening to the deluge of whines and/or hard data. Its up to the players to break the "overpowered" feel till the decision can be made.
I.e. You put one of the many counters to logistics in your title ffs.
1. Ecm 2. Logistics 3. Superior heavy dps 4. Superior fc'ing 5. Hot dropping supercaps 6. Drake fleets 7. 300 man battle badger lulz fleets for shame factor
Shall i go on. Kk |
Diesel47
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Posted - 2011.01.05 13:44:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Diesel47 on 05/01/2011 13:44:51
Originally by: Jovialmadness Edited by: Jovialmadness on 05/01/2011 13:38:20 Any ships in the right combination especially if its common knowledge to pvp'ers of their tactical advantages will be powerful. They may even appear overpowered. Its up to CCP to determine if they are through either listening to the deluge of whines and/or hard data. Its up to the players to break the "overpowered" feel till the decision can be made.
I.e. You put one of the many counters to logistics in your title ffs.
1. Ecm 2. Logistics 3. Superior heavy dps 4. Superior fc'ing 5. Hot dropping supercaps 6. Drake fleets 7. 300 man battle badger lulz fleets for shame factor
Edit yea neuts too.
Shall i go on. Kk
He is talking about logistics being a problem for small gang pvp and half the counters you give involve blobbing. This post is useless.
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raukosen
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Posted - 2011.01.05 14:20:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Diesel47 Edited by: Diesel47 on 05/01/2011 13:44:51
Originally by: Jovialmadness Edited by: Jovialmadness on 05/01/2011 13:38:20 Any ships in the right combination especially if its common knowledge to pvp'ers of their tactical advantages will be powerful. They may even appear overpowered. Its up to CCP to determine if they are through either listening to the deluge of whines and/or hard data. Its up to the players to break the "overpowered" feel till the decision can be made.
I.e. You put one of the many counters to logistics in your title ffs.
1. Ecm 2. Logistics 3. Superior heavy dps 4. Superior fc'ing 5. Hot dropping supercaps 6. Drake fleets 7. 300 man battle badger lulz fleets for shame factor
Edit yea neuts too.
Shall i go on. Kk
He is talking about logistics being a problem for small gang pvp and half the counters you give involve blobbing. This post is useless.
Smile, you got trolled!
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2011.01.05 14:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: raukosen
Originally by: Diesel47 Edited by: Diesel47 on 05/01/2011 13:44:51
Originally by: Jovialmadness Edited by: Jovialmadness on 05/01/2011 13:38:20 Any ships in the right combination especially if its common knowledge to pvp'ers of their tactical advantages will be powerful. They may even appear overpowered. Its up to CCP to determine if they are through either listening to the deluge of whines and/or hard data. Its up to the players to break the "overpowered" feel till the decision can be made.
I.e. You put one of the many counters to logistics in your title ffs.
1. Ecm 2. Logistics 3. Superior heavy dps 4. Superior fc'ing 5. Hot dropping supercaps 6. Drake fleets 7. 300 man battle badger lulz fleets for shame factor
Edit yea neuts too.
Shall i go on. Kk
He is talking about logistics being a problem for small gang pvp and half the counters you give involve blobbing. This post is useless.
Smile, you got trolled!
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Needa3
Minmatar BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2011.01.05 21:45:00 -
[27]
bring back Area of effect doomsday, a script will do and solve a lot of issues
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.05 22:08:00 -
[28]
If your goal is to make supercaps even stronger, certainly.
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Needa3
Minmatar BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2011.01.05 23:25:00 -
[29]
tell me how that would make em stronger?
like the 300 man blobs with 50+ logistics are a fun fight.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.05 23:34:00 -
[30]
only now you notice the unbalance of logis? Its been obvious for a long time... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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Cor Aidan
Shore Leave
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Posted - 2011.01.05 23:37:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Cor Aidan on 05/01/2011 23:38:38 Actually, an interesting possible change to the New Eden universe related to remote repping I've been pondering might be as follows:
Unreppable damage.
Specifics: Some portion of damage cannot be repaired using active (ship based) repair modules, either local or remote. This would eliminate "unbreakable" tanks. Say, something like 0.1 or 0.2% of taken damage is "permanent" and can only be repaired in station. Station repairs are also changed to require both isk and minerals (T2 might require T2 materials to replace parts, etc.).
This would have numerous other effects, and I'll be honest and say I don't know if it would be Good or Bad. Some notable effects: mission runners now have a "cost of doing business" that's higher than mere ammo costs (which are small mineral and isk at the moment (LP store fees)) or the occasional lost drone. It would also vastly increase the isk sinks in the game, because who right now actually pays to have their ship repaired in a station (there are some cases where this makes sense, but for mission running folks it becomes a toss-up for heavy hull damage between time lost to hull rep vs direct isk cost of station repairs)? This also adds a mineral sink - something that currently exists only in the form of ship losses and ammo construction. So we'd have an increased counter to both isk and mineral inflation. Depending on the ratios, mineral prices might go up (due to higher mineral demand) or down (because there is less isk floating around).
It would also adversely effect bots, because now they have higher operating costs; macros using drones and T1 lasers currently have exactly zero recurring costs, so adding a recurring cost will help counter that behavior.
Probably the only group that would really scream about this change is mission runners. Hardcore PvP may not care too much because they are used to losing ships; while it will make them possibly lose ships faster, they won't lose them faster than their opponents because the change would affect all ships equally.
I haven't really been able to think of any debilitating detrimental side effects to this concept (that's what the forums are for!). Yes, it will change combat tactics, but there are very obvious benefits across multiple facets of the pod piloting experience.
Regarding module swaps such as shield extenders or plating: I'd make the permanent damage a percentage of the total hitpoints, not an absolute number, so that adding or removing modules doesn't result in being able to play games by changing modules (or get the strange effect of negative hitpoints like if you offline plating with extreme armor damage).
A slight alternative to this strategy would be to have damage pass through to shield and armor mods (similar to heat damage) so they will fail after a sustained attack; that seems much more difficult to tune properly than a bulk ship effect though; it's also not clear how to apply damage to remote rep modules in this situation.
Edit: Corrected ammo use to be an isk sink for LP purchases
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.06 08:39:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Needa3 tell me how that would make em stronger?
like the 300 man blobs with 50+ logistics are a fun fight.
Yes they are, of course assuming both sides have about equal stuff and lag isnt ruining everything. But due to the logistics fights take longer, being primaried is not insta death, etc. Sure you might think you should be able to solo a 300 men blob, but that isnt fun either (well not fun for everyone who dies when you press a single button, if you only play for your stats you might think it is fun).
Now how could adding a iwin button that removes all non-caps from grid, and with the ammount of supers produced also without much issue remove all caps from grid, be possibly a boost to supercaps? Let me think about that... Really isnt it obvious that subcaps will just be removed from the playing field by everyone who has one of those iwin buttons? And also isnt it obvious that by now every powerblock can easily get enough titans to kill also all normal caps? Not to mention if you go boosting titans further (like supercaps need one) that everyone and their macro alt will be switching from supercarrier production to titan production?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:51:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Needa3 tell me how that would make em stronger?
like the 300 man blobs with 50+ logistics are a fun fight.
The logistics heavy fights I have seen were closer to a 1:5 ratio than a 1:10 with loads of ECM on top (ie. bog standard blob).
A very easily implemented and I think quite effective way of reducing logistics power in the large blobs: Restrict ability to call for shield/armour/cap to wing.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.06 11:37:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Needa3 tell me how that would make em stronger?
Ability to instapop every subcapital on the grid... are you seriously arguing this wouldn't be an upgrade to the power of supercapitals?
Quote: like the 300 man blobs with 50+ logistics are a fun fight.
From what I gather talking to some of my friends still in sov 0.0, they actually are at times.
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Crimsons Storm
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Posted - 2011.01.09 04:51:00 -
[35]
What a load of crap Logi ships need to give up slots to make them resistant to ecm.
obvious troll thread ...gtfo
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