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Miss Krunk	Posted - 2011.01.07 12:26:00 - [1] With missles, at the small, large and X-large tiers you have a choice between two types of missles. Long range with lower damage or short range with higher damage. The one exception is at the cruiser level, where the Heavy missles not only have the longest range but also the highest damage. IMO there is no good reason for this. All of the talk about Drakes and Tengu's being OP are not quite on the mark. It is not the ship that is at fault, it is their prefered weapon. Fix heavy missles and you fix drakes and Tengu's.
Cyrus Mierre The Forsaken Legion	Posted - 2011.01.07 12:27:00 - [2] HAMs have more damage than HMLs. The system works.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.01.07 12:29:00 - [3] Quote: also the highest damage. All credibility lost. There is a significant DPS gap between heavies and HAMs. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
NoNah	Posted - 2011.01.07 12:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Miss Krunk With missles, at the small, large and X-large tiers you have a choice between two types of missles. Long range with lower damage or short range with higher damage. The one exception is at the cruiser level, where the Heavy missles not only have the longest range but also the highest damage. IMO there is no good reason for this. All of the talk about Drakes and Tengu's being OP are not quite on the mark. It is not the ship that is at fault, it is their prefered weapon. Fix heavy missles and you fix drakes and Tengu's. I never really fly drakes with HML's. If I fly a drake it's to be disposable in a solo or small gang variant and hence I will be using HAMs. As for the tengu, I mainly go with HML's, but that is entirely the ships fault. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 821541
Miss Krunk	Posted - 2011.01.07 12:54:00 - [5] Edited by: Miss Krunk on 07/01/2011 12:54:24 Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Miss Krunk With missles, at the small, large and X-large tiers you have a choice between two types of missles. Long range with lower damage or short range with higher damage. The one exception is at the cruiser level, where the Heavy missles not only have the longest range but also the highest damage. IMO there is no good reason for this. All of the talk about Drakes and Tengu's being OP are not quite on the mark. It is not the ship that is at fault, it is their prefered weapon. Fix heavy missles and you fix drakes and Tengu's. I never really fly drakes with HML's. If I fly a drake it's to be disposable in a solo or small gang variant and hence I will be using HAMs. As for the tengu, I mainly go with HML's, but that is entirely the ships fault. Oops, I was using EFT with kinetic missiles for the heavies and EM's for the HML's. Guess I shouldn't be using EFT this early Yeah, it just seems crazy that a heavy missile boat can put out near BS damage and range.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.01.07 12:58:00 - [6] Originally by: Miss Krunk Yeah, it just seems crazy that a heavy missile boat can put out near BS damage and range. If by 'near BS damage' you mean 800+ dps then please post your fit.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.01.07 13:22:00 - [7] Its well known that drake, hmls, falcon etc. are OP. Tbh its true abouth whole caldari lineup /dont forget griffin of doom/. But that was intended! So can noobs and poor guys without skills choose eve easymode = caldari and real men with balls of steel and 1337 skillz can choose hard mode with minmatar.
Miss Krunk	Posted - 2011.01.07 13:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Wacktopia Originally by: Miss Krunk Yeah, it just seems crazy that a heavy missile boat can put out near BS damage and range. If by 'near BS damage' you mean 800+ dps then please post your fit. Not my fit, but this is Liang Nuren's that I copy pasted from another thread. Quote: [Tengu, PVE HML Fury] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System 10MN Afterburner II Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers 784 DPS (Include reload time for the Tengu - you will reload basically every room). That's 784 DPs out to 80 or so km. No drones so all of that DPS will reach out there.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.07 13:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Miss Krunk Originally by: Wacktopia Originally by: Miss Krunk Yeah, it just seems crazy that a heavy missile boat can put out near BS damage and range. If by 'near BS damage' you mean 800+ dps then please post your fit. Not my fit, but this is Liang Nuren's that I copy pasted from another thread. Quote: [Tengu, PVE HML Fury] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System 10MN Afterburner II Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers 784 DPS (Include reload time for the Tengu - you will reload basically every room). That's 784 DPs out to 80 or so km. No drones so all of that DPS will reach out there. Using a 4 Faction dmg mod T2 high Damage ammo on a PVE Max gank T3 cruiser is hardly a good base for weapon balancing questions. :D
Miss Krunk	Posted - 2011.01.07 13:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Pod Amarr Using a 4 Faction dmg mod T2 high Damage ammo on a PVE Max gank T3 cruiser is hardly a good base for weapon balancing questions. :D You may be right there, but at the same time.....can you fit any other another ship using medium weapons to put out that much DPS at the much range without using heavy missles?
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:21:00 - [11] Heavy missiles are fine. IMO, they need to reduce cpu requirement of HM's (or upgrade drake CPU by 10%) Heavy missiles are also too slow. maybe quadruple the flight time, then i might accept removing missile lag. Their drone bay is also small. They need 75m3. They are also too high in sig radius. Shield sig bloom should be offset by being the 140m sigrad BC (making it 235 after LSE and rigs). I also think the alpha isnt enough. I think it needs to have more alpha then artillery at least. I also think a +25% damage to all is better then +25% kinetic damage.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Miss Krunk You may be right there, but at the same time.....can you fit any other another ship using medium weapons to put out that much DPS at the much range without using heavy missles? You only realize that firepower if the target is (1) has a sig radius bigger than 137m and (2) flying slower than 145 m/s and (3) if you do not consider missile flight time or reloading in your calculation. EFT is a helpful tool, but has its limitations that should be held in context while making these types of comparisons.
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:28:00 - [13] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Its well known that drake, hmls, falcon etc. are OP. Tbh its true abouth whole caldari lineup /dont forget griffin of doom/. But that was intended! So can noobs and poor guys without skills choose eve easymode = caldari and real men with balls of steel and 1337 skillz can choose hard mode with minmatar. Hard mode minmatar? You know we are talking about Winmatar right?
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:30:00 - [14] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 07/01/2011 14:31:11 Quote: You may be right there, but at the same time.....can you fit any other another ship using medium weapons to put out that much DPS at the much range without using heavy missles? Said DPS takes a significant amount of time to actually reach the target, and their point is still valid that a 4x CN BCU with t2 missiles is hardly a fair benchmark. A Drake with navy scourge and 2x BCU II does 368 dps, 411 with furies. This drops to 329 using non-kinetic fury missiles and around 290 using navy non-kinetic. Hardly cause for nerf cries, tbh. Quote: hard mode with minmatar. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ahh funny stuff. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Miss Krunk	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Von Kroll Originally by: Miss Krunk You may be right there, but at the same time.....can you fit any other another ship using medium weapons to put out that much DPS at the much range without using heavy missles? You only realize that firepower if the target is (1) has a sig radius bigger than 137m and (2) flying slower than 145 m/s and (3) if you do not consider missile flight time or reloading in your calculation. EFT is a helpful tool, but has its limitations that should be held in context while making these types of comparisons. I do, but I am looking at this from a PvE point of view where those factors are managable. I only posted that one fit because it was suitable as an extreme example and it was easily copy/pasted. That fit can clean missions out faster than most Faction BS/Marauders.
LordOfDespair	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Miss Krunk Originally by: Von Kroll Originally by: Miss Krunk You may be right there, but at the same time.....can you fit any other another ship using medium weapons to put out that much DPS at the much range without using heavy missles? You only realize that firepower if the target is (1) has a sig radius bigger than 137m and (2) flying slower than 145 m/s and (3) if you do not consider missile flight time or reloading in your calculation. EFT is a helpful tool, but has its limitations that should be held in context while making these types of comparisons. I do, but I am looking at this from a PvE point of view where those factors are managable. I only posted that one fit because it was suitable as an extreme example and it was easily copy/pasted. That fit can clean missions out faster than most Faction BS/Marauders. Well it is a T3 after all...
Vardec Crom	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Miss Krunk Originally by: Von Kroll Originally by: Miss Krunk You may be right there, but at the same time.....can you fit any other another ship using medium weapons to put out that much DPS at the much range without using heavy missles? You only realize that firepower if the target is (1) has a sig radius bigger than 137m and (2) flying slower than 145 m/s and (3) if you do not consider missile flight time or reloading in your calculation. EFT is a helpful tool, but has its limitations that should be held in context while making these types of comparisons. I do, but I am looking at this from a PvE point of view where those factors are managable. I only posted that one fit because it was suitable as an extreme example and it was easily copy/pasted. That fit can clean missions out faster than most Faction BS/Marauders. A tengu outdpsing Marauders? What are you smoking? Golem's do like 1300 dps. Vargurs and paladins do 1000 or more. Not sure about the Kronos. Also, faction BS, ever heard of the 800mm mach or tachyon nightmare. Yea those will outdps a max gank Tengu easy. Point is you're asking CCP to balance heavy missiles based on a ship that has 800 million isk dedicated to heavy missiles. Also, a ship using medium guns that can outdps an HML tengu? Astarte, Proteus, Sliepneir, etc, etc.
LordGavy	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:07:00 - [18] Actually you can get 1052 or 1053 can't remember which if you really want to set out for dps using a Tengu lol. Thats with Heavy assualts and something like 840 dps with Heavy's. I will let the smart people work it out. But that is being very focused on a Tengu and with faction mods. (not officer or anything too silly)
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Miss Krunk I do, but I am looking at this from a PvE point of view where those factors are managable. I only posted that one fit because it was suitable as an extreme example and it was easily copy/pasted. That fit can clean missions out faster than most Faction BS/Marauders. You're not comparing apples to apples. You want to compare the effectiveness of heavy missiles versus their gun counterparts, try creating normal fits, using normal ships (like Battlecruisers), then factor in missile flight time to come up with a credible comparison. For a normal PvE fit Drake, it takes the missiles over 13 seconds to hit something at 75km, not including the damage reduction incurred by the NPC defender missiles (we'll just leave them out of this discussion to make it easy). Then, rate of fire for a HML II is 6.7 seconds. So, in the first 20 seconds of the engagement, you hit with two volleys of theoretically 5400 points of damage. That's 270 DPS, without considering resistances or defender loss. Now, over time, the DPS numbers will get closer to the EFT idealized damage, but you will never get to the actual number--never. Because of flight time. You'll also never reach those numbers if the target is moving faster than your explosion velocity (which they certainly do in a mission) or if it is smaller than your explosion radius (which they are in missions, otherwise no one would use rigor rigs). So, take every single variable into consideration, then come back with a comparison of how OP heavy missiles are...
Drakarin Gallente Absentia Libertas Solus	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:24:00 - [20] Originally by: Miss Krunk Edited by: Miss Krunk on 07/01/2011 12:54:24 Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Miss Krunk With missles, at the small, large and X-large tiers you have a choice between two types of missles. Long range with lower damage or short range with higher damage. The one exception is at the cruiser level, where the Heavy missles not only have the longest range but also the highest damage. IMO there is no good reason for this. All of the talk about Drakes and Tengu's being OP are not quite on the mark. It is not the ship that is at fault, it is their prefered weapon. Fix heavy missles and you fix drakes and Tengu's. I never really fly drakes with HML's. If I fly a drake it's to be disposable in a solo or small gang variant and hence I will be using HAMs. As for the tengu, I mainly go with HML's, but that is entirely the ships fault. Oops, I was using EFT with kinetic missiles for the heavies and EM's for the HML's. Guess I shouldn't be using EFT this early Yeah, it just seems crazy that a heavy missile boat can put out near BS damage and range. Anything can put out an effective dps equivalent to a bs because a bs can't hit anything. As for the Tengu, it's a T3 cruiser that costs as much as a Carrier. It should pack a punch.
Indeterminacy THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:26:00 - [21] Heavy missiles OP? And a terrible troll at that. I have a simple one-word answer to this question, :alpha:
Miss Krunk	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:41:00 - [22] Originally by: Vardec Crom Originally by: Miss Krunk Originally by: Von Kroll Originally by: Miss Krunk You may be right there, but at the same time.....can you fit any other another ship using medium weapons to put out that much DPS at the much range without using heavy missles? You only realize that firepower if the target is (1) has a sig radius bigger than 137m and (2) flying slower than 145 m/s and (3) if you do not consider missile flight time or reloading in your calculation. EFT is a helpful tool, but has its limitations that should be held in context while making these types of comparisons. I do, but I am looking at this from a PvE point of view where those factors are managable. I only posted that one fit because it was suitable as an extreme example and it was easily copy/pasted. That fit can clean missions out faster than most Faction BS/Marauders. A tengu outdpsing Marauders? What are you smoking? Golem's do like 1300 dps. Vargurs and paladins do 1000 or more. Not sure about the Kronos. Also, faction BS, ever heard of the 800mm mach or tachyon nightmare. Yea those will outdps a max gank Tengu easy. Point is you're asking CCP to balance heavy missiles based on a ship that has 800 million isk dedicated to heavy missiles. Also, a ship using medium guns that can outdps an HML tengu? Astarte, Proteus, Sliepneir, etc, etc. You ignored a very important part of my sentence. I know you can make a blaster or AC boat that can put out stupid DPS. But can it do it at 80km? As far as explosion radius and velocity go, Battleships will take full damage. You can always switch to non-rage missles for cruisers and still do comparable damage to a turret.
Corporal Punishment08 NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2011.01.07 17:07:00 - [23] op needs to do their homework. Heavy missiles are fine. We should not be comparing T3s to Battlecruisers to Cruisers to Marauders to Battleships. Each hull does appropriate DPS with appropriate tank. Leave Caldari alone.
NoNah	Posted - 2011.01.07 17:28:00 - [24] alot of issues at once here. The hign damage at long range is something specific to missiles and of all sizes. You won't find a frigate that outdamages the sml kestrel at it's max range either. A raven can under very specific conditions hit targets for quite a few hundred dps at over 400km, no other weaponsystem can even hit that far. Still you don't consider them overpowered. The second issue is that your focusing on specific ships in specific roles. If you want tackle on your tengu it's range is suddenly much less And finding a bc dealing 500dps at tackle ramge sn't that hard. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 310687
Ranka Mei Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.07 17:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Miss Krunk Originally by: Pod Amarr Using a 4 Faction dmg mod T2 high Damage ammo on a PVE Max gank T3 cruiser is hardly a good base for weapon balancing questions. :D You may be right there, but at the same time.....can you fit any other another ship using medium weapons to put out that much DPS at the much range without using heavy missles? All of this thread is pretty useless, to be honest. For starters, no offence, you didn't even know HAMs do more damage than HML's. Besides, a Megathron Navy Issue can do 1500 DPS (and still have a 161k EHP tank). And half a decent Apoc can hit you instantly for 7,000 dmg, while us missile folks have to wait for the missiles to reach their targets. The point being: all weapon systems have their pro- and cons. HML's are not OP. --
Loraine Gess	Posted - 2011.01.07 18:25:00 - [26] Originally by: NoNah alot of issues at once here. The hign damage at long range is something specific to missiles and of all sizes. You won't find a frigate that outdamages the sml kestrel at it's max range either. A raven can under very specific conditions hit targets for quite a few hundred dps at over 400km, no other weaponsystem can even hit that far. Still you don't consider them overpowered. The second issue is that your focusing on specific ships in specific roles. If you want tackle on your tengu it's range is suddenly much less And finding a bc dealing 500dps at tackle ramge sn't that hard. AFAIK you can only lock out to 250km.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.01.07 19:21:00 - [27] Originally by: Miss Krunk As far as explosion radius and velocity go, Battleships will take full damage. You can always switch to non-rage missles for cruisers and still do comparable damage to a turret. Not if the target is moving faster that your explosion velocity, but at zero transversal. At zero transversal, regardless of target speed, guns hit for their full damage potential. Like I said, apples to apples...
NoNah	Posted - 2011.01.07 19:45:00 - [28] Originally by: Loraine Gess AFAIK you can only lock out to 250km. Hence the very specific conditions. The missiles can travel 400km but the target will need to move for them to actually travel the full distance. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 264921
Miss Krunk	Posted - 2011.01.07 19:51:00 - [29] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Loraine Gess AFAIK you can only lock out to 250km. Hence the very specific conditions. The missiles can travel 400km but the target will need to move for them to actually travel the full distance. If you fire at 250km but the targets speed carries them to 400km by the time the missile hits. FYI, I am not trolling here. It's just that I saw these numbers for boats like the Tengu, Drake and Nighthawk and it does seem like anything else comes close. I am trained Minnie and Gallente, and it just doesn't seem like we have anything close to the all around abilities of those boats. I am just trying to wrap my head around this stuff
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.01.07 20:03:00 - [30] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 07/01/2011 20:03:18 Quote: FYI, I am not trolling here. It's just that I saw these numbers for boats like the Tengu, Drake and Nighthawk and it does seem like anything else comes close. I am trained Minnie and Gallente, and it just doesn't seem like we have anything close to the all around abilities of those boats. I am just trying to wrap my head around this stuff I fly Caldari, and it doesn't seem like any gunships we have comes anything close to the all-round abilities of Minmatar gunships. See what I did there? _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...

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