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Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.01.10 11:37:00 - [91] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Pohbis We are talking about fracking missiles. Nothing has changed in regards to them over the last 4 years. The nano nerf and missile formula change actually made them worse for PvP. Seriously, how did this misconception get so widespread? I was actually around when my missiles were doing single digit damage to nanoships, and I for one am pretty happy that doesn't tend to happen any more... _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:07:00 - [92] I still think heavy missile needs a buff. The fact that myrmidon can field 900 dps and 160K EHP tank is mind boggling, while HM Drakes can only field 570 dps and a 100K EHP tank i think Heavy missiles needs a +50% alpha boost and a ROF instead of kinetic damage bonus to make it 900 dps, thus balancing out the ships. a +10% shield resistance per level is good too, to equalise the EHp
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:13:00 - [93] HAMs should be easier to fit than HMLs.
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:15:00 - [94] Well thats why i said. I think missiles really need a buff. We can see caracal only has 200 dps and 30K ehp compared to the thorax . Thats why i think,HM needs at least a +50% boost, and maybe a nice boost to 5% ehp. This way the game is more balanced
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:18:00 - [95] Originally by: Miss Krunk Originally by: Pohbis Edited by: Pohbis on 10/01/2011 03:59:30 Originally by: NoNah And I'm not trolling. You lost alot of credibility. And you're digging your hole deeper. Sorry. Sorry, but when you're not answering the questions of the people you are having a discussion with, you are trolling. Plain and simple. And the problem with the Ferox is not missiles being overpowered, but rails being **, and it not having a dmg bonus. Rails are arguably the only weapon platform just as bad as missiles for PvP. Well, not really, cause they can still help with alpha. Are you trying to tell me that if there was a hull similar to the Drake out there, that used lasers or projectiles instead of missiles, that it wouldn't replace the Drake in a heartbeat? And I'm not digging any hole here. We are talking about fracking missiles. Nothing has changed in regards to them over the last 4 years. The nano nerf and missile formula change actually made them worse for PvP. The HML Drake is also still the lolDrake that would get you laughed at not so long ago. Anyone claiming that they are somehow overpowered needs to have his head examined, or just doesn't know how they work. Oh, there's the 3rd type as well, the hordes of Minmatar and Amarr PvP alts who are emoing because sub-capital 0.0 gangs field Drakes. They can chear up a bit now since Meals and Abaddons are ending the fluke that was the Draketrain. I don't seem to recall all this ***ing about the sniper Zealots which kinda prompted the rise of the cheap buffer Drake. The fact that nobody in this thread even seems to care about sig radius, explosion velocity, and travel speed/time, tells me all I have to know about the OP of missiles. It's all in EFT. Well, since the Drake is probably the most common ship found in PvP...missiles can't be that bad. That is more of result as drake and Tengu being the only missile ships that do not suck in PVP as they being so good. Everyone who put theirs sp in missiles and shields is flying only those 2 ships. With Tengu being t3 and cost quite a bit more then you end up with you have guessed it every missile user on a cruiser sized platform flying drakes. This is further magnified by the fact that Caracal as T1 missile cruiser is quite underwhelming [although not horrible just squishy] Navy Caracal is more expensive then Drake and Cerberus while haveing some advantages most of the time those are not used. So because of great balancing you see ALL Missile guys in one and only one ship If they gave a Cerb adjustmet to agility and moved the utility high to a mid slot then sure you would see more of those Same for Caracal with that one needing a low slot. Navy Caracal is great nano boat with decent firepower but it is faction so not used that much . Rook EW bird with ok DPS when fitted that way but most people who have recons just use falcon and devote them self to jamming full time.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:19:00 - [96] No, you are wrong, its not missiles - its drake! It needs 1 more lowslot so ppl could fit 1 more bcu and more mids for shield amplifiers and sensor boosters.
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:23:00 - [97] correct there. One more low slot is OK for the drake, but more importantly is the boost in resistance and damage. To me, drake is still lackluster currently compared to the tengu and the myrmidon. I think it needs something....special. Like an additional flight speed bonus, or a explosion velocity bonus.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:34:00 - [98] Originally by: Nanferr correct there. One more low slot is OK for the drake, but more importantly is the boost in resistance and damage. To me, drake is still lackluster currently compared to the tengu and the myrmidon. I think it needs something....special. Like an additional flight speed bonus, or a explosion velocity bonus. Do not be shy do it like this. 5% per level All damage not only kinetic Same shield bonus replace the role bonus by 5 % ROF Bonus booyeah now talk balace :D
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:35:00 - [99] Edited by: Rastigan on 10/01/2011 13:35:59 Edited by: Rastigan on 10/01/2011 13:35:21 Originally by: Miss Krunk Well, since the Drake is probably the most common ship found in PvP...missiles can't be that bad. Its probably the Hurricane, http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf page 30. And for Top 20 Final blows there are 4 dedicated missile boats compared to 10 projectile boats, 4 laser boats, and 1 LOLOL hybrid boat. So which weapon system is OP ?
NoNah	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:38:00 - [100] Originally by: Pohbis Edited by: Pohbis on 10/01/2011 03:59:30 Originally by: NoNah And I'm not trolling. You lost alot of credibility. And you're digging your hole deeper. Sorry. Sorry, but when you're not answering the questions of the people you are having a discussion with, you are trolling. Plain and simple. What question? Why I don't troll elsewhere(Which I answered, and you know, was stated after implying I was trolling) or what's my point(Which I can only assumes referrs back to pointing out how A) Drones are quite used and have a noticable added bonus to all BC's and B) The drake is the bc with least use of drones and hence any inclusion thereof just helps prove the cause that drakes are not overpowered. Quote: And the problem with the Ferox is not missiles being overpowered, but rails being **, and it not having a dmg bonus. Rails are arguably the only weapon platform just as bad as missiles for PvP. Well, not really, cause they can still help with alpha. Are you trying to tell me that if there was a hull similar to the Drake out there, that used lasers or projectiles instead of missiles, that it wouldn't replace the Drake in a heartbeat? I am. I am also suggesting that if you could achieve the same performance as a drake, at the same cost and same skillpoint requirements, but with a turretbased ship it'd be nerfed in a heartbeat. I'm not saying drakes are unbeatable. I'm not saying drakes are terribly overpowered. I'm saying it's pretty much hands down the best BC there is, all things considered. That does not mean all other BC's are useless and pointless, it means that while all other BC's have niches, the drake got overall superiority for everything else AND it's own niches. Quote: And I'm not digging any hole here. We are talking about fracking missiles. Nothing has changed in regards to them over the last 4 years. The nano nerf and missile formula change actually made them worse for PvP. The HML Drake is also still the lolDrake that would get you laughed at not so long ago. Quote: Anyone claiming that they are somehow overpowered needs to have his head examined, or just doesn't know how they work. Oh, there's the 3rd type as well, the hordes of Minmatar and Amarr PvP alts who are emoing because sub-capital 0.0 gangs field Drakes. They can chear up a bit now since Meals and Abaddons are ending the fluke that was the Draketrain. I don't seem to recall all this *ing about the sniper Zealots whi ch kinda prompted the rise of the cheap buffer Drake. Technically, all of this isn't even about the drake. The drake is just the most obvious presence of the HMLs. 100MN Tengus would be just as applicable, but they're not as common, for non HML-related reasons and abaddons, maelstroms etc are useless against them. Quote:** The fact that nobody in this thread even seems to care about sig radius, explosion velocity, and travel speed/time, tells me all I have to know about the OP of missiles. It's all in EFT. Sig radius,Explosion velocity and travel speed/time is no different from Sig radius, tracking speed and optimal range/falloff. It's the same attributes calculated and distributed in different ways. Both have advantages and drawbacks. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 873594
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:46:00 - [101] Well thats why i said. I think missiles really need a buff. We can see covert HM tengu only has 400 dps and 90K ehp compared to the proteus's 800dps 120K ehp . Thats why i think, needs at least a +100% alpha boost, and maybe a nice boost to ehp, maybe a default tengu 5% resistance This way the game is more balanced
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:50:00 - [102] Quote: That is more of result as drake and Tengu being the only missile ships that do not suck in PVP as they being so good. Everyone who put theirs sp in missiles and shields is flying only those 2 ships. Hey I fly a rook to! :) (The boss version though, 400 dps+)
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.10 14:01:00 - [103] i use missiles on my rifters too. And merlins. And Canes. And ruptures. And vagabonds. And muninns. And typhoons. And Cerberus's. And Ravens. And Hookbills. And dramiels. And hurricanes. And blackbirds. And falcons. And rooks. And So like. uh. Which 2 unique ships uses missiles again?
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.01.10 14:15:00 - [104] Edited by: Lugalzagezi666 on 10/01/2011 14:18:30 Originally by: Rastigan And for Top 20 Final blows there are 4 dedicated missile boats compared to 10 projectile boats, 4 laser boats, and 1 LOLOL hybrid boat. So which weapon system is OP ? Obviously everything caldari, especially drake. Caldari = eve easymode. Minmatar = eve on hard difficulty, only for men with big balls /of steel/. E: Also : "Table 9: ...Minmatar ships dominate the list, which is interesting considering the criticisms often leveled at them."
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.01.10 14:26:00 - [105] Originally by: Nanferr Well thats why i said. I think missiles really need a buff. We can see caracal only has 200 dps and 30K ehp compared to the thorax . Thats why i think,HM needs at least a +50% boost, and maybe a nice boost to 5% ehp. This way the game is more balanced Erm, ever heard of "range"?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.01.10 14:37:00 - [106] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Pohbis We are talking about fracking missiles. Nothing has changed in regards to them over the last 4 years. The nano nerf and missile formula change actually made them worse for PvP. Seriously, how did this misconception get so widespread? I was actually around when my missiles were doing single digit damage to nanoships, and I for one am pretty happy that doesn't tend to happen any more... Remember this thread right after the QR changes? Okay, it was mostly mission runners whinging that they couldn't instapop an NPC interceptor with torps, but there's a lot of people in that thread referring specifically to PVP.
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.10 15:04:00 - [107] Quote: ever heard of range ever heard of "no flight time" and "instant damage"?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.01.10 15:14:00 - [108] Edited by: Gypsio III on 10/01/2011 15:15:12 Sure. But outside fleet work, the delayed damage from missiles isn't much of a problem. For a Caracal, it's rare to have to deal with more than 10 s of flight time. And put it this way, if the Caracal's damage is being delayed significantly, then the Thorax is hopelessly out of range.
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.10 15:21:00 - [109] Then range is not a problem too All you have to do is warp to 0km.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2011.01.10 15:24:00 - [110] Originally by: Liang Nuren Furthermore, the missile damage formula change essentially guaranteed you would be doing damage with missiles and added the option to stock up on explosion radius almost to the exclusion of explosion velocity. You're correct. It made it so you would almost always hit for at least some damage. Problem is, it's still not a lot of damage on most of those targets that were previously immune. Allthough better than none... but on a lot of other it decreased and forced you to fit TPs and rigs to get the projected DPS back up.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.01.10 15:33:00 - [111] Originally by: Nanferr Then range is not a problem too All you have to do is warp to 0km. Easier said than done, tbh.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2011.01.10 15:36:00 - [112] Originally by: NoNah Sig radius,Explosion velocity and travel speed/time is no different from Sig radius, tracking speed and optimal range/falloff. It's the same attributes calculated and distributed in different ways. Both have advantages and drawbacks. Yes, they both have advantages and drawbacks. The advantage of the HMLs is that it hits for the same damage at any range, the drawback, that no amount of maneuvering can do anything about the sig radius of the target. A turret boat can do this. On a stationery or 0 transversal target you can get your guns up to max DPS and score wrecking hits. A missile does not have this option. And that it the problem with this thread. It's complaining about one of the advantages of missiles compared to turrets, an advantage it has exactly because of its inherit shortcomings in other areas. As far as the Drake being the best BC, I'll just say that if you lose to a HML drake, in say a Hurricane. You're doing it wrong. Very wrong.
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.10 15:37:00 - [113] yes. thats why i said. Drake needs a buff to at least be able to be on par of hurricane's 800 dps Thats why i think drake needs at least a +50% alpha damage, and maybe damage to all type instead of only kinetic a +10% resistence bonus isntead of 5 is good to, so that the bc class will be more balanced. Thats what i think
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2011.01.10 16:00:00 - [114] Originally by: Nanferr Drake needs a buff to at least be able to be on par of hurricane's 800 dps Its called the 80k ehp buffer tank in comparison to the 45k ehp buffer that that particular hurricane gets.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.01.10 16:32:00 - [115] Originally by: Korg Leaf Its called the 80k ehp buffer tank in comparison to the 45k ehp buffer that that particular hurricane gets. This particular cane has 70k ehp and almost 800 dps. [Hurricane, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4 Btw even shield cane has 50k ehp /without heating invul/.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.01.10 16:44:00 - [116] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/01/2011 16:44:53 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 This particular cane has 70k ehp and almost 800 dps. [Hurricane, New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Its also slow as a brick, has much less range than a Drake, and costs much more than a Drake. And if you want to, you can get damn near 100k EHP out of a Drake while still having good DPS. ;-) -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2011.01.10 16:44:00 - [117] Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 10/01/2011 16:51:26 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Korg Leaf Its called the 80k ehp buffer tank in comparison to the 45k ehp buffer that that particular hurricane gets. This particular cane has 70k ehp and almost 800 dps. [Hurricane, dumb fit snipped] It's also utterly trivial to kill with a HML Drake, and has lol HAMs - the utility slot mods for people who prefer whoring their way up killmails and looking pretty on EFT rather than being useful. edit: oh, and of course, hail versus T1 shield tanks. Good job there, champ. Signature removed.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.01.10 17:00:00 - [118] Edited by: Lugalzagezi666 on 10/01/2011 17:05:42 Originally by: Liang Nuren Its also slow as a brick, has much less range than a Drake, and costs much more than a Drake. And if you want to, you can get damn near 100k EHP out of a Drake while still having good DPS. This slow brick is whole 13m/s slower than drake. And you will for sure greatly enjoy your 80k range when you actually have to TACKLE something. Also yes, fly more 100k+ ehp drakes without full tackle and full of pds, i heard its good for pvp. Originally by: Ophelia Ursus It's also utterly trivial to kill with a HML Drake Your utterly trivial kill will eat your hml drake few seconds later after landing overheated webs. Originally by: Ophelia Ursus and has lol HAMs - the utility slot mods for people who prefer whoring their way up killmails and looking pretty on EFT rather than being useful. You are showing here how stupid you are. Not that you havent showed it enough on your previous post where you compared tier 1 bc to tier 2 bc as a proof of OMGZ DREAK IS BEING ZE OP. E: Originally by: Ophelia Ursus edit: oh, and of course, hail versus T1 shield tanks. Good job there, champ. Sadly, its hard for you to understand, that i was quoting someone else to show him, that cane is in fact able to put out 800dps while having 70k tank without implants and overheating. Ofc im perfectly aware of that if i loaded emp, youd magically say that "every competent pvper plugs its em hole" and if i used pp, youd instantly overheated "both invuls."
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.01.10 17:06:00 - [119] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 This slow brick is whole 13m/s slower than drake. And significantly less agile. I remind you that in the art of evasion, align time is about as important as raw speed. Sometimes more-so. ;-) Quote: And you will for sure greatly enjoy your 80k range when you actually have to TACKLE something. Also yes, fly more 100k+ ehp drakes without full tackle and full of pds, i heard its good for pvp. Its totally possible to get 560 DPS and almost 90K EHP before overheating out of a Drake. With tackle. Overheating gives you near 100K EHP... with tackle. \o/ ZOMG ZOMG -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.01.10 17:18:00 - [120] Only thing that bigger mass of cane mean is, that you will get deeper into scram range after landing webs. You just cant kite anything with 13m/s speed difference, you will get tackled or lose tackle. Also 2x invul, lse, cdfe fit has 83k ehp. Every point of ehp over it will cost you tackle or dps. Can you post me your hml fit with 560 dps, 100k+ ehp and full tackle pls? Preferably long point since you want to enjoy your range. Btw fit i posted is without any implants, gang boosts, drugs, overheating.

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