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Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:28:00 -
[1]
Playing around a bit with a CNR fit in EFT (yes EFT warrior blablah :P ) I see that with T2 Cruise launchers and T1 missiles I only get 478 DPS from the thing. And that's with 4 BCUII's and 2 rigor rigs.
Wasn't the CNR supposed to be some epic superfast mission runner?
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Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:33:00 -
[2]
It ends up higher effective damage since you can exploit the resist hole of npcs. Also can project the dps out to ~140km irrc with a single signal amp with no worries of tracking or traversal. There are other ship that work better against certain rats but CNR (and missile ship in general) is best bang for buck sp wise.
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raukosen
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:34:00 -
[3]
Did you use your own skills or all lvl V skills? Also, try with T2 / faction missiles plus faction damage mods. You can get over 900 DPS.
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Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:41:00 -
[4]
Originally by: raukosen Did you use your own skills or all lvl V skills? Also, try with T2 / faction missiles plus faction damage mods. You can get over 900 DPS.
My own, and I my missile skills are pretty decent. Not lvl 5 but to my knowledge all the support missile skills are at least lvl 4.
Wouldn't T2/faction ammo ruin your isk/hr rate btw?
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:45:00 -
[5]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 08/01/2011 17:46:00
Originally by: Dirk Decibel I see that with T2 Cruise launchers and T1 missiles I only get 478 DPS from the thing. And that's with 4 BCUII's and 2 rigor rigs.
Now run the numbers with T2 Fury missiles, four CN BCUs, three rigor rigs, three sentry drones and five light drones.
For bonus points, throw in 5% damage and 5% rate of fire implants.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:46:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dirk Decibel Wouldn't T2/faction ammo ruin your isk/hr rate btw?
You make money so much faster that it more than covers the additional cost of more expensive (but fewer used) rounds of ammo. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:46:00 -
[7]
Fury ammo is definitely worth using. Faction ammo not so much but it is still good. You look at how many volley you use with cruise missile to kill a ship then the npc bounty...your losing nothing really.
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Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:49:00 -
[8]
Originally by: stoicfaux Edited by: stoicfaux on 08/01/2011 17:46:00
Originally by: Dirk Decibel I see that with T2 Cruise launchers and T1 missiles I only get 478 DPS from the thing. And that's with 4 BCUII's and 2 rigor rigs.
Now run the numbers with T2 Fury missiles, four CN BCUs, three rigor rigs, three sentry drones and five light drones.
The rigor rigs don't affect the DPS at all I just noticed in EFT So how exactly do they help?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dirk Decibel The rigor rigs don't affect the DPS at all I just noticed in EFT So how exactly do they help?
They ensure that the theoretical DPS you get from EFT can be efficiently applied to the target. Without them your damage on target will start to drop as a function of the target size.
More importantly, they counteract the penalty to T2 Fury missiles that make them particularly bad at shooting smaller targets. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:55:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dirk Decibel
Originally by: stoicfaux Edited by: stoicfaux on 08/01/2011 17:46:00
Originally by: Dirk Decibel I see that with T2 Cruise launchers and T1 missiles I only get 478 DPS from the thing. And that's with 4 BCUII's and 2 rigor rigs.
Now run the numbers with T2 Fury missiles, four CN BCUs, three rigor rigs, three sentry drones and five light drones.
The rigor rigs don't affect the DPS at all I just noticed in EFT So how exactly do they help?
You do that there is more to actually doing DPS than EFT numbers, right?
The rigor rigs will increase the amount of DPS you apply in real situations because they reduce your explosion radius. Sometimes that is far more important than more DPS in EFT.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.01.08 18:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dirk Decibel
Originally by: stoicfaux Edited by: stoicfaux on 08/01/2011 17:46:00
Originally by: Dirk Decibel I see that with T2 Cruise launchers and T1 missiles I only get 478 DPS from the thing. And that's with 4 BCUII's and 2 rigor rigs.
Now run the numbers with T2 Fury missiles, four CN BCUs, three rigor rigs, three sentry drones and five light drones.
The rigor rigs don't affect the DPS at all I just noticed in EFT So how exactly do they help?
Tracking computers/enhancers won't make turret based ships have more DPS in EFT and Webs and painters don't increase the DPS of missile/turret/drone boats either in EFT.
I suggest you don't bother with any of them either under any circumstances.
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.01.08 18:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
Originally by: Dirk Decibel
Originally by: stoicfaux Edited by: stoicfaux on 08/01/2011 17:46:00
Originally by: Dirk Decibel I see that with T2 Cruise launchers and T1 missiles I only get 478 DPS from the thing. And that's with 4 BCUII's and 2 rigor rigs.
Now run the numbers with T2 Fury missiles, four CN BCUs, three rigor rigs, three sentry drones and five light drones.
The rigor rigs don't affect the DPS at all I just noticed in EFT So how exactly do they help?
Tracking computers/enhancers won't make turret based ships have more DPS in EFT and Webs and painters don't increase the DPS of missile/turret/drone boats either in EFT.
I suggest you don't bother with any of them either under any circumstances.
Oh great, sarcasm, the internet doesn't have enough of that already....
I noticed they did not affect the numbers in EFT and then asked how they helped. Crap like your post is not helping me with that. Guess I should not ask questions and re-invent the wheel myself ey?
Nao b nais end flai safe.
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Salpad
Caldari Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2011.01.08 19:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dirk Decibel Oh great, sarcasm, the internet doesn't have enough of that already....
I noticed they did not affect the numbers in EFT and then asked how they helped. Crap like your post is not helping me with that. Guess I should not ask questions and re-invent the wheel myself ey?
Tippia answered your question.
Personally, I think furry missiles are absolutely silly. Not only do they work ****tily against smaller targets, they also make my sig radius swell up.
Of course, I'm in a passive-tanked NightHawk, so my sig radious is bloated already, but I've been meaning to move to an active tank, and stick with my trusted Caldari Navy Heavy Missiles (I'd use Caldari Navy Cruise Missiles if I were flying a Raven, CNR or Golem, but my Raven and my CNR are are basically retird, and my Golem is fitted with tractor beams and cargo rigs, and will be sold once I get my hands on a sweet, sweet Noctis).
Look a the stats. Furries basically don't work against smaller-than-you targets, and rigs such as Rigors don't really help all that much. And on top of that, furries increse your signature radious so that the rats can pawn you better.
I simply do not get it.
-- Salpad |
Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.01.08 19:43:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Salpad
Tippia answered your question.
Yus I know, there are still plenty of polite helpfull ppl :) .
Quote:
Personally, I think furry missiles are absolutely silly. Not only do they work ****tily against smaller targets, they also make my sig radius swell up.
Of course, I'm in a passive-tanked NightHawk, so my sig radious is bloated already, but I've been meaning to move to an active tank, and stick with my trusted Caldari Navy Heavy Missiles (I'd use Caldari Navy Cruise Missiles if I were flying a Raven, CNR or Golem, but my Raven and my CNR are are basically retird, and my Golem is fitted with tractor beams and cargo rigs, and will be sold once I get my hands on a sweet, sweet Noctis).
Look a the stats. Furries basically don't work against smaller-than-you targets, and rigs such as Rigors don't really help all that much. And on top of that, furries increse your signature radious so that the rats can pawn you better.
I simply do not get it.
Well, as for tank, I understand the CNR can fit quite a massive tank so I'm not too worried about rat pwnage. Furthermore, I will prolly be running missions with this thing together with a Domi on one of my alts. A massive stack of drones will make short work of small targets.
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Izuru Hishido
Amarr Lethal Dosage. Violent Society
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Posted - 2011.01.08 20:15:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 08/01/2011 20:16:08
Originally by: stoicfaux Edited by: stoicfaux on 08/01/2011 17:46:00
Originally by: Dirk Decibel I see that with T2 Cruise launchers and T1 missiles I only get 478 DPS from the thing. And that's with 4 BCUII's and 2 rigor rigs.
Now run the numbers with T2 Fury missiles, four CN BCUs, three rigor rigs, three sentry drones and five light drones.
For bonus points, throw in 5% damage and 5% rate of fire implants.
You realize that after three damage mods are the limit prior to a stacking nerf, don't you? In fact, the third ballistic control begins to stacking nerf, and every one after that adds so little extra benefit that you're just urinating isk all over your ship to make it seem more effective. Use three Caldari Navy Ballistic controls and either two Power Diags or two cap rechargers.
Edit: Implants are nice, but 5%'s are too damn pricey for their benefit. Every other type do just as well, and they aren't that expensive comparatively.
When you're using a CNR for missions, your best bet is to use cruises, not torps. Torps gimp your fitting enough on a regular raven, and frankly the CNR with cruises is far more effective. Of course torps hit harder, but Cruises hit so fast that if you use a target painter on an Angel mission, your cruises will literally hit before the defenders have time to launch.
Ultimately in almost every case its more effective to use long range weaponry against NPC's. I've run DED 5-10/10's, every type of anom I could find and most of the ones ingame, and I've learned overall one thing. Longer range is better, because then you don't have to deal with a large amount of DPS up close. "The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his." |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.08 20:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Izuru Hishido You realize that after three damage mods are the limit prior to a stacking nerf, don't you? In fact, the third ballistic control begins to stacking nerf, and every one after that adds so little extra benefit that you're just urinating isk all over your ship to make it seem more effective. Use three Caldari Navy Ballistic controls and either two Power Diags or two cap rechargers.
The stacking penalty sets after the first one, not after three. It's just that three is usually considered the limit after which the stacking penalty is so large that it doesn't make much sense to add more modules. Running with four BCUs is not uncommon (although it's arguable whether it's worth the money to fit a CN BCU as the fourth one since the difference between that one and a normal T2 is so small at that point). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Loraine Gess
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Posted - 2011.01.08 20:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: stoicfaux Edited by: stoicfaux on 08/01/2011 17:46:00
Originally by: Dirk Decibel I see that with T2 Cruise launchers and T1 missiles I only get 478 DPS from the thing. And that's with 4 BCUII's and 2 rigor rigs.
Now run the numbers with T2 Fury missiles, four CN BCUs, three rigor rigs, three sentry drones and five light drones.
For bonus points, throw in 5% damage and 5% rate of fire implants.
Boy I sure wish I had the skills to use eight drones in a CNR.
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Izuru Hishido
Amarr Lethal Dosage. Violent Society
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Posted - 2011.01.08 21:20:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Izuru Hishido You realize that after three damage mods are the limit prior to a stacking nerf, don't you? In fact, the third ballistic control begins to stacking nerf, and every one after that adds so little extra benefit that you're just urinating isk all over your ship to make it seem more effective. Use three Caldari Navy Ballistic controls and either two Power Diags or two cap rechargers.
The stacking penalty sets after the first one, not after three. It's just that three is usually considered the limit after which the stacking penalty is so large that it doesn't make much sense to add more modules. Running with four BCUs is not uncommon (although it's arguable whether it's worth the money to fit a CN BCU as the fourth one since the difference between that one and a normal T2 is so small at that point).
Thats actually true. Thank you for pointing that out. I meant to imply that the stacking nerf becomes much more prevalent after a third of one type of module. "The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his." |
stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.08 22:44:00 -
[19]
Stacking explained and numbers: eve dev wiki
Useful Eve Formulae: Cat's Accumulated Formulas
Why are rigors important: There are two formulas that determine missile damage (thread here). The first formula (MF1) simply compares the target's sig size to the missile's explosion radius. If target's sig size is 75m and your explosion radius is 100m, then you will do at *most* 75% of your damage. Rigor rigs reduce explosion radius.
The second missile formula (MF2) is based on target speed. It primarily compares the target's speed versus the missiles explosion velocity (i.e. can the target outrun the missile explosion.) Target sig size does influence MF2 (rigor rigs affect both MF1 and MF2.)
End result, rigor rigs help to make your missile hit for more of their potential damage. They also make Fury missiles very effective against NPC BCs, battleships and big slow cruisers.
I've written a (not-overly-user-friendly) spreadsheet that allows you to compute the effects of your setup against NPC ships: stoicfaux's missile damage spreadsheet
This is commonly considered the "optimal" CNR setup: liang's CNR setup
And for the person who made the eight drones comment. Your brilliant observation is predicated on the assumption that we're all stupid. You need to stop making that assumption.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
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Posted - 2011.01.09 01:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Salpad Look a the stats. Furries basically don't work against smaller-than-you targets, and rigs such as Rigors don't really help all that much. And on top of that, furries increse your signature radious so that the rats can pawn you better.
I simply do not get it.
Oy. You're so, so wrong. Doubly wrong since you're talking about a Nighthawk -- which is practically made for Fury missiles. See that explosion velocity bonus? Yeah.
On a Raven, for the sake of argument, a set of Rigor rigs and a painter means you can use Furies with impunity against all but the smallest, fastest targets. This can easily reduce the number of volleys (which is really the only important thing; if you're not getting a full volley faster it's not worth switching ammo) needed to take down a cruiser or BS (BCs and destroyers go down fast in any case). Oh, and they cost quite a bit less can CN missiles.
As for the sig radius increase: meh. It only really makes a difference in unprobable fits but since you're never going to get that in a NH or Raven (or Drake, or anything but a Tengu) it's not really a concern. In a Drake or NH just keeping your AB running mitigates much of the incoming damage anyhow and in a Raven a sig increase only affects capital weapons.
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Nanferr
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Posted - 2011.01.09 03:26:00 -
[21]
Stacking nerf or not is irrelevant. Any PVE ship needs at least 8 GANK related mods
Machariel = 4 gyro , T2 aetor rigs , 3 TE Nightmare = 4 heat sink , 1 TE 2 TC , T2 aetor rigs Golem = 4 painter, 4 Ballistics CNR = 4 Ballistics, 1 Painters, 3 Rigors Tengu = 1 Painter, 4 Ballistics, 2 Rigor 1 Flare.
Thank you. Please dont question me, just do it.
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Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.01.09 15:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: stoicfaux Stacking explained and numbers: eve dev wiki
Useful Eve Formulae: Cat's Accumulated Formulas
Why are rigors important: There are two formulas that determine missile damage (thread here). The first formula (MF1) simply compares the target's sig size to the missile's explosion radius. If target's sig size is 75m and your explosion radius is 100m, then you will do at *most* 75% of your damage. Rigor rigs reduce explosion radius.
The second missile formula (MF2) is based on target speed. It primarily compares the target's speed versus the missiles explosion velocity (i.e. can the target outrun the missile explosion.) Target sig size does influence MF2 (rigor rigs affect both MF1 and MF2.)
End result, rigor rigs help to make your missile hit for more of their potential damage. They also make Fury missiles very effective against NPC BCs, battleships and big slow cruisers.
I've written a (not-overly-user-friendly) spreadsheet that allows you to compute the effects of your setup against NPC ships: stoicfaux's missile damage spreadsheet
This is commonly considered the "optimal" CNR setup: liang's CNR setup
Very interesting, thanks.
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Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.01.09 18:33:00 -
[23]
Right, as off now I have this fit:
Low: Ballistic Control Sys II X4 Damage Control II X1
Med: Shield Boost amplifier II X1 Invul Field II X2 Large Shield Booster II X1 Cap Recharger II X1 Target Painter II X1
Highs: Cruise Missile Launcher II X7 Small Tractor Beam X1
Rigs: Rigor I X2 CCC I X1.
Just took it on its first mission but I found it tanks for crap compared to my Dominix. I could not even permatank Cargo Delivery lvl 4.
Any suggestions on upping the tank?
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.09 19:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: stoicfaux
This is commonly considered the "optimal" CNR setup: liang's CNR setup
That fit is probably best bang for the buck. If you're willing to splurge, you can squeeze 2 painters on it.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2011.01.09 19:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nanferr Stacking nerf or not is irrelevant. Any PVE ship needs at least 8 GANK related mods
Machariel = 4 gyro , T2 aetor rigs , 3 TE Nightmare = 4 heat sink , 1 TE 2 TC , T2 aetor rigs Golem = 4 painter, 4 Ballistics CNR = 4 Ballistics, 1 Painters, 3 Rigors Tengu = 1 Painter, 4 Ballistics, 2 Rigor 1 Flare.
Thank you. Please dont question me, just do it.
wtf 4 painters...
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Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.09 20:37:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: stoicfaux
This is commonly considered the "optimal" CNR setup: liang's CNR setup
That fit is probably best bang for the buck. If you're willing to splurge, you can squeeze 2 painters on it.
-Liang
Why is is it called your fit ? It is not like that cap booster fits were popular but I have seen them around loooooong time ago even before rigs were in the game. There might have been slight variation of it as early as 2006 If I remember correctly.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.09 20:59:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/01/2011 21:00:15
Originally by: Pod Amarr
Why is is it called your fit ? It is not like that cap booster fits were popular but I have seen them around loooooong time ago even before rigs were in the game. There might have been slight variation of it as early as 2006 If I remember correctly.
Cap booster fits weren't just "not popular" - they were extremely unpopular. Before I championed that fit (including the rigor rigs+cap booster), the "standard fit" still had 3 CCCs - and anything else was massively ridiculed.
-Liang
Ed: Not that I'm attached to the name on that fit. It wasn't my idea... -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.09 21:15:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/01/2011 21:00:15
Originally by: Pod Amarr
Why is is it called your fit ? It is not like that cap booster fits were popular but I have seen them around loooooong time ago even before rigs were in the game. There might have been slight variation of it as early as 2006 If I remember correctly.
Cap booster fits weren't just "not popular" - they were extremely unpopular. Before I championed that fit (including the rigor rigs+cap booster), the "standard fit" still had 3 CCCs - and anything else was massively ridiculed.
-Liang
Ed: Not that I'm attached to the name on that fit. It wasn't my idea...
tips hat
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Geralden
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Posted - 2011.01.09 21:22:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Geralden on 09/01/2011 21:22:05
Originally by: Dirk Decibel Right, as off now I have this fit:
Low: Ballistic Control Sys II X4 Damage Control II X1
Med: Shield Boost amplifier II X1 Invul Field II X2 Large Shield Booster II X1 Cap Recharger II X1 Target Painter II X1
Highs: Cruise Missile Launcher II X7 Small Tractor Beam X1
Rigs: Rigor I X2 CCC I X1.
Just took it on its first mission but I found it tanks for crap compared to my Dominix. I could not even permatank Cargo Delivery lvl 4.
Any suggestions on upping the tank?
Using 2 invounr and a shield extender doesnt really work Use 3 mission specific hardners, and stay away from invounr. fields. The shield booster is ok, but not good... you could find a better in jita that uses alot less cap.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.01.10 01:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/01/2011 21:00:15
Originally by: Pod Amarr
Why is is it called your fit ? It is not like that cap booster fits were popular but I have seen them around loooooong time ago even before rigs were in the game. There might have been slight variation of it as early as 2006 If I remember correctly.
Cap booster fits weren't just "not popular" - they were extremely unpopular. Before I championed that fit (including the rigor rigs+cap booster), the "standard fit" still had 3 CCCs - and anything else was massively ridiculed.
-Liang
Ed: Not that I'm attached to the name on that fit. It wasn't my idea...
yea well, back in the day you could pretty much hit npc cruisers for full damage with anything, damn I really miss my torp cnr
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