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HolyNerfBatman
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Posted - 2011.01.09 01:45:00 -
[1]
Currently the skill Marginal Trading allows people to put up buy orders on the market without having the full amount of ISK to cover it. This is a very useful skill when say the minimum amount to buy is in increments of one or two items at a time. Allowing the trader to invest money elsewhere at the same time to develop a good income.
In no way do I want this aspect changed except for one thing. If the buyer does not have the ISK to cover the minimum buy amount, their buy order should not appear on the market until they have the money to cover a minimum buy amount. So if a buyer puts up a buy amount for five hundred items and then turns around and empties their wallet, the buy order will immediately disappear until enough money to cover a minimum buy amount is back in the wallet.
Currently people are abusing this skill in what is still being investigated as an exploit. They put up for sale about a thousand items of something at a high price. Then turn around and somewhere about ten jumps away with an alt, put up a buy order for the same item but they have a minimum buy amount at almost the amount of what is being sold elsewhere in the region. They immediately zero out their wallet on the account that has the buy order. So when the seller goes to sell to the buy order, it glitches out and the buy order vanishes.
Now any heavy market trader can see the same item being sold for a high price and then being bought up for an even higher price and have reservations, but it is impossible to know if the buy order is for a scam or a legitimate one. On contract scams you can carefully look and see what you are getting. With this, it is impossible. Now I fully expect those who use and endorse abusing this glitch/scam/exploit to come running in here and rallying their friends to derail it, but I am hoping the realistic market traders will give support to this change.
Some arguments will be that the person putting up the buy order is losing ISK in the brokers fees and such. In all actuality it is negligible at best. Another argument will be that the person will simply wait for what they are selling to sell, and then immediately cancel their buy order. That means they have to actually be logged in and paying attention, whereas the current glitch is a 'fire and forget' scam. Risking virtually nothing and abusing a mechanic that the seller has no way of knowing it is real or fake buy order.
I look forward to the comments and rage from the exploiters.
TL;DR - If you don't have enough ISK in your wallet to cover the minimum amount in a buy order, the buy order immediately disappears.
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2011.01.09 01:54:00 -
[2]
I concur.
Originally by: CCP StevieSG It's your female forum mod Stevie-G. I'm here to tell you kids from around the block. Rapping's not allowed in here. Welcome to my lock.
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Bunyip
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.01.09 04:33:00 -
[3]
I support this, but I'd rather have them do something else. I'd rather them send the wallet of the individual into negatives. This, coupled with a suggested change to make people with negative account balances impossible to reprocess/send to the biomass facility, will make RMT dealers, scam artists, and others right where they deserve to be.
However, for now, supported. ======== "The civilized man is rude, for he knows that laws protect him from recompense; whereas the savage is not, for his actions can meet a bloody end." - Robert E. Howard |
Goose99
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Posted - 2011.01.09 04:42:00 -
[4]
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Trygonus
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Posted - 2011.01.09 06:40:00 -
[5]
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WEELLLPS RIGHTSIDE
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Posted - 2011.01.09 07:21:00 -
[6]
Edited by: WEELLLPS RIGHTSIDE on 09/01/2011 07:21:01 Agree, negative balance and do not allow termination of character.
Also any of these would help too:
- do not allow a character on the same account to buy from or sell to a character on the same account.
- change display of buy order to show maximum that can be completed by trader (database issues? Probably.)
- change market adding a "query order" button to check if the buy order can be completed by the order holder? Duh.
- Remove the broker skill. (As a true trader you would never buy more than you could afford. It would put you in the red! Plus to trade more you would need more money, similar to risk/reward or skills needed for PvP. Grind your a-- up to be a true trader b----.)
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.01.09 07:38:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 09/01/2011 07:42:38 @OP.. supported as it makes this scam to work harder, but won't really help if the scammer does put some work into it (*)
do not allow a character on the same account to buy from or sell to a character on the same account. Useless.. can be circumvented with 2nd Account.
change display of buy order to show maximum that can be completed by trader (database issues? Probably.) change market adding a "query order" button to check if the buy order can be completed by the order holder? (*)The scammer in question sets up the primed sell and buy orders in different stations/systems and keeps enough isk in the buy-order-connected wallet. As soon as the sell order is filled (someone bite) he cancels the buy order or removes the isk from the wallet to render it obsolete (can be automated even by bots).
Remove the broker skill. (As a true trader you would never buy more than you could afford. It would put you in the red! Plus to trade more you would need more money, similar to risk/reward or skills needed for PvP. Grind your a-- up to be a true trader b----.) No. This skill enables more complex trading. You're addressing the marketing skill btw.
The problem with being in the red in Eve is the single wallet we have. If we could go into the red on a trading wallet (how deep depending on xyz) and wouldn't be allowed to run with it forever (assets and all wallets on the char would be sized after x days) we could have a deal here that the marketing order is filled and your trading wallet is put into the red. support Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.01.09 07:41:00 -
[8]
I don't support this change for three reasons, although I'm not adamantly opposed to it either, on the condition that the checks don't cause much stress to the servers. No reason to make the gameplay experience worse for all because of the ignorance and greed of few. Now on to my reasoning for objecting to this change.
Firstly, I don't care for the fact that the server has to continually monitor peoples wallet and compare it to their market orders to achieve this. And they will have to do this for every person who has trained the margin traiding skill and every trader and many other characters will have it. Seems like a lot of unnecessary work for the servers, for almost non-existant benefit. Bad way to use limited resources in my oppinion.
Secondly, your money isn't being stolen with this. The fact remains, that if they can't cover the trade, you get to keep your items you bought for a price you deemed acceptable. You can't lose anything in the actual trade. What it does is exploit the greed(and bots) of people, to make them blind to the actual value of an item by dangling the possiblity of easy money in front of their faces. You still have the items though, so you can still sell them on to others.
Thirdly, there is a user based solution to this issue. This is because the scam is partly based on abusing your ignorance about the value of the item. This is basicly just saying to the initial buyer, that there is another customer willing to pay even more for it, so it is totally worth the nonsensical price. The solution becomes obvious. If you don't know the actual value of an item, don't do trades with it. If the item is commonly traded or you know it's value, you can't be fooled by such simple tactics.
Not supported, and strongly against it, if the extra server load caused by this is anything but miniscule.
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Trygonus
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Posted - 2011.01.09 09:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue No reason to make the gameplay experience worse for all because of the ignorance and greed of few.
I would like to comment on this statement.
Ignorance? What ignorance? Please enlighten the rest of us on how you are able to look at a buy order and know for a fact if the person who has the buy order up has enough money to cover it?
Greed? Someone puts up a buy order that says, "Hi. I need 50 T2 cap recharge and I want to pay 600,000 ISK for them." So a person comes along, taking time to move said cap rechargers to the location, to fill the order. And you are saying that guy is being greedy? On what grounds?
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Firstly, I don't care for the fact that the server has to continually monitor peoples wallet and compare it to their market orders to achieve this. And they will have to do this for every person who has trained the margin traiding skill and every trader and many other characters will have it. Seems like a lot of unnecessary work for the servers, for almost non-existant benefit. Bad way to use limited resources in my oppinion.
News flash. The server already monitors everyone's wallet so your "Doomsday Day" theory for the servers are irrelevant.
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Secondly, your money isn't being stolen with this. The fact remains, that if they can't cover the trade, you get to keep your items you bought for a price you deemed acceptable. You can't lose anything in the actual trade. What it does is exploit the greed(and bots) of people, to make them blind to the actual value of an item by dangling the possiblity of easy money in front of their faces. You still have the items though, so you can still sell them on to others.
Just like people who lose a ship and claim because they mined the minerals for it, it was free so they are not upset. Your statement is incorrect. You lose time. Any business person will tell you time is money. So moving goods to a station with a bogus buy order cost you the time which means it cost you money.
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Thirdly, there is a user based solution to this issue. This is because the scam is partly based on abusing your ignorance about the value of the item. This is basicly just saying to the initial buyer, that there is another customer willing to pay even more for it, so it is totally worth the nonsensical price. The solution becomes obvious. If you don't know the actual value of an item, don't do trades with it. If the item is commonly traded or you know it's value, you can't be fooled by such simple tactics.
Where to begin with this one. If someone is willing to pay a lot more there is several legitimate reasons they might have. One is they might need the items immediately for something. Another is maybe they are predicting it will become extremely valuable soon. You are making the assumption that if they are willing to pay top ISK for something, it is always a scam which is nonsense.
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue How exactly do you see the negative wallet thing working in practice? I think you end up either shooting a fly with a cannon or creating a super, man eating mutant fly. If you just put them in to negative, you will heavily punish the scammer for something that is allowed by the rules of the game. If this scam is the problem and deemed as unwanted exploitation, then surely the solution should just be to fix the exploit part of the mechanism. On the other hand, if the intent is to pay the seller from non-existing money supply, as in create the isk from nothing, you create a much bigger problem. You just made it possible to create ISK out of nothing. Either way you cut it, if you still allow the 'exploitation' mechanic to happen, it's not really a fix to the 'exploitation' problem is it.
Negative wallet was not part of what the OP is proposing.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.01.09 09:09:00 -
[10]
I agree, even with margin trading, a buy order should not appear unless there are enough funds to cover the minimum buy quantity.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.01.09 09:39:00 -
[11]
In case this was for me..
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue *snip* EDIT: How exactly do you see the negative wallet thing working in practice? I think you end up either shooting a fly with a cannon or creating a super, man eating mutant fly. If you just put them in to negative, you will heavily punish the scammer for something that is allowed by the rules of the game. If this scam is the problem and deemed as unwanted exploitation, then surely the solution should just be to fix the exploit part of the mechanism. On the other hand, if the intent is to pay the seller from non-existing money supply, as in create the isk from nothing, you create a much bigger problem. You just made it possible to create ISK out of nothing. Either way you cut it, if you still allow the 'exploitation' mechanic to happen, it's not really a fix to the 'exploitation' problem is it.
meh.. you're right.. I just scrapped two tries to argue against that and it always ends in exploitable mechanics or no use at all.
support Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
WEELLLPS RIGHTSIDE
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Posted - 2011.01.09 12:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tres Farmer
change market adding a "query order" button to check if the buy order can be completed by the order holder? (*)The scammer in question sets up the primed sell and buy orders in different stations/systems and keeps enough isk in the buy-order-connected wallet. As soon as the sell order is filled (someone bite) he cancels the buy order or removes the isk from the wallet to render it obsolete (can be automated even by bots).
FYI "query order" button would use almost no DB resources because you are targeting a single orderID. When requesting something from a DB by a single address look up it takes almost no resources. The wallet lookup is also a minimal single address lookup. (Evemon uses it in massive massive amounts) Bottom line, <query order> from the market browser window while in the same region as the order would take almost no resources and would solve the blind trader exploit/glitch/scam that this original post addresses while adding a fun human interactive aspect to the game.
Regarding the remove order trading (fishing as I like to call it) this is ALMOST okay, but that brings up a whole-nother bag of bones. Think of how a player is removed from a corp, they have to wait. A market order should be the same way. An order can be canceled immediately within the first hour of creating it, BUT Cancel the order after that and a 1 hour countdown timer starts for the order to cancel. I think 1 hour is sufficient for scammers to get their jollies off given the right circumstances, but also makes the game a little more even in the whole yin/yang thing. Placing buy orders would then be more like placing a contract in the sense that you really have to PAY ATTENTION when typing prices. I digress from that until a later date.
Originally by: Tres Farmer
The problem with being in the red in Eve is the single wallet we have. If we could go into the red on a trading wallet (how deep depending on xyz) and wouldn't be allowed to run with it forever (assets and all wallets on the char would be sized after x days) we could have a deal here that the marketing order is filled
No multiple wallets or trading wallets with the red. That would just be a nightmare and confusing to players that were legit. I can already see the helpdesk light up with "HEY WHERE DID MY ASSETS GO! I DIDNT MEAN TO ARGGHHH AHHH" lol
I think we are pretty much on the same page, but I liked to post all the options so we can see the bad ones with the really good ones that make EVE a better game for all.
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Sellina Lewerprice
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Posted - 2011.01.09 12:56:00 -
[13]
Agree.
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WEELLLPS RIGHTSIDE
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Posted - 2011.01.09 13:24:00 -
[14]
Well i like the way this is formatted and that it is so concise so I am going to post it here:
Simple fix for all: Add "query order" button
PROCESS
1. Query order by button <query order>
2. progam checks the order vs the players wallet
3. returns: "Can Complete!" Or "Can't Complete!"
Simple, elegant. Scammers get to keep scamming and cautious players get to check the order before getting played. Everyone wins.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.01.09 13:33:00 -
[15]
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.09 13:51:00 -
[16]
I don't think it makes sense to go through these convolutions, since the only way to get the result the OP desires is to remove the margin trading skill altogether.
The whole idea of margin trading is to leverage large trades using minimal isk. There are high volume traders that use this mechanic to play the game. Negating all 10 of my orders while liquid isk is moving in another system will cripple this tool.
CCP implemented margin trading for a reason. The OP assumes that the only purpose of margin trading is to scam, which is not the case. In the first para of his post he tries to explain how it works, and in the second he says he wouldn't change anything, except make it not work.
Creating all kinds of cheetah-flip mechanics in a pointless attempt to de-scam a game mechanic is a waste of time and energy. Until CCP comes up on the net and says "margin trading was a mistake and we're removing it" (a la learning skills) then this mechanic is working as intended.
As stated above...there is no scam involved in the "problem." Nobody loses anything...the person attempting to move items gets to keep the hardware to sell somewhere else, and the person posting the trade is out only the broker fees. If the person attempting to move the items knows their value, he won't purchase over-priced or under traded items. It's all about doing homework before jumping into a "LIMITED TIME OFFER!! CALL NOW!!" trade.
KB
Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. --Herodotus, Histories
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HolyNerfBatman
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Posted - 2011.01.09 16:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: KaarBaak I don't think it makes sense to go through these convolutions, since the only way to get the result the OP desires is to remove the margin trading skill altogether.
Wrong. The result I desire was if the person placing the buy order does not have enough ISK to cover the minimum amount he wants to buy, the buy order is automatically cancelled. Stop changing/spinning my words.
Originally by: KaarBaak The whole idea of margin trading is to leverage large trades using minimal isk. There are high volume traders that use this mechanic to play the game. Negating all 10 of my orders while liquid isk is moving in another system will cripple this tool.
A simple solution to this is to cancel your highest bid order on an item to lower the total minimum buy order amount. If you zero out your entire wallet (Why? I honestly can't think of a reason anyone would do this unless they are hoping for the bug/scam/exploit to happen) all your orders would cancel because your broke and can not pay for anything you said you would.
Also by cancelling the largest ISK wise on your buy orders is easier to keep track of instead of starting with the smallest ones. If you are a legitimate trader than there really is no issue here, unless of course your hoping to have your order cancelled, in which case a 'right click + delete' works fine too.
Originally by: KaarBaak The OP assumes that the only purpose of margin trading is to scam, which is not the case. In the first para of his post he tries to explain how it works, and in the second he says he wouldn't change anything, except make it not work.
Again, your putting words in my mouth. I never said anything of the sort that the skill is only to scam. The chance would only affect those who willingly decided to go broke all of the sudden. So please, stop trying to derail my proposal by lying.
Originally by: KaarBaak Creating all kinds of cheetah-flip mechanics in a pointless attempt to de-scam a game mechanic is a waste of time and energy. Until CCP comes up on the net and says "margin trading was a mistake and we're removing it" (a la learning skills) then this mechanic is working as intended.
I think you are trying too hard here. There are many things in this game that do not work properly and to state, "Unless CCP says otherwise, it is working as intended!" like it is the law is being very obtuse.
Originally by: KaarBaak Nobody loses anything
The person that attempted to do the sale loses time, like I said earlier, time equals money. Do you deny this?
Originally by: KaarBaak If the person attempting to move the items knows their value, he won't purchase over-priced or under traded items. It's all about doing homework before jumping into a "LIMITED TIME OFFER!! CALL NOW!!" trade.
I'm sorry if this proposal goes against the "Good Thing!" you have going, but raising all kinds of fake red flags and shouting the end of the world for trading because of this change is very transparent. Thanks for playing.
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Cassina Lemour
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.10 00:48:00 -
[18]
Opposed, this is market PvP.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.10 01:02:00 -
[19]
bad......
This is what you're asking.
"Everytime I view a market window I'd like Eve to extend that database query into other tables, pulling more information for each and every line item on the market thus lagging the whole system to death all so that an escrow can be confirmed before any item is purchased."
Unneeded lag for a case that isn't the most common.
No thanx.
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WitchKingOfAgamar
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Posted - 2011.01.10 04:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith bad......
This is what you're asking.
"Everytime I view a market window I'd like Eve to extend that database query into other tables, pulling more information for each and every line item on the market thus lagging the whole system to death all so that an escrow can be confirmed before any item is purchased."
Unneeded lag for a case that isn't the most common.
No thanx.
Thats not at all what he is asking. What he is asking is that when the scammer empties his wallet, the system looks at his orders, and cancels any order that he cant cover a single minimum-unit-value's worth of. It has nothing to do with when you open the market, but when the scammer empties his wallet. |
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WEELLLPS RIGHTSIDE
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Posted - 2011.01.10 08:39:00 -
[21]
Edited by: WEELLLPS RIGHTSIDE on 10/01/2011 08:43:27
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith bad......
This is what you're asking.
"Everytime I view a market window I'd like Eve to extend that database query into other tables, pulling more information for each and every line item on the market thus lagging the whole system to death all so that an escrow can be confirmed before any item is purchased."
Unneeded lag for a case that isn't the most common.
No thanx.
You both missed it.
- The requested feature would not make the query unless a user specifically requests it on an individual order.
Nothing would change in the way broad queries are run on the market currently, this is a button or "right click selection" that only works on a single order at a time and only when requested by a user in the same region or buy range of the order. Which ever is easier to code into the game.
And as for the previous poster previous to this quote, if this is Market PvP then I want a gun to fire back with buddy.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.10 12:47:00 -
[22]
Against. These orders stand out a mile for a diligent trader who knows the market. This is market PvP and there are several ways to profit from countering these orders. Adapt.
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Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.01.10 13:13:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 10/01/2011 13:13:26 Going to give this a thumbs up. If nothing but for the tears of those who currently exploit this bug.
I also find it rather hilarious those screaming how there are several ways to know if the owner of the buy order has the money in their wallet to cover the minimum buy order or not. Yet they never list any at all...
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DarkAegix
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Posted - 2011.01.10 13:30:00 -
[24]
Agreed. I saw this scam in Jita local and felt powerless to warn others. This scam is completely passive and undetectable.
Whiners who use this exploit should lose all of their ISK. Work for your ISK. Adapt.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2011.01.10 14:05:00 -
[25]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 10/01/2011 14:07:27
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Going to give this a thumbs up. If nothing but for the tears of those who currently exploit this bug.
It's not a bug...
Originally by: DarkAegix
Whiners who use this exploit should lose all of their ISK. Work for your ISK. Adapt.
Nor is it an exploit.
Guess what? Margin trading is used daily in the real world. The only difference between Eve and the real world is that in the real world, if you don't have enough cash to cover the margin and the deal goes south, they come and take your house.
In Eve they just cancel the buy order, and you get to keep the stuff you were trying to sell to sell to another buyer.
So let me see if I understand this:
1) You have 200 units of Widget A to sell. 2) You try to sell to XxD@rthV@d3rUberLeetTradeBotxX - cause it seems like a really good idea since he's paying about ten times more than his next nearest competitor. 3) Guy with stupid name can't cover the cost, so the order gets cancelled and you lose...nothing, except whatever time you spent mentally spending all the ISK you failed to make, since you still have the 200 units of Widget A. 4) You go sell Widget A to someone else for less of a profit (you DID do enough research to insure you could still make a profit right?)
I fail to see how someone with even a minute amount of sense can actually lose money on this - except by being suckered in by greed over a "sure thing".
Edit: For those of you uncertain about why "sure things" should be handled with the utmost care and even more diligence than normal, please go watch the first half hour or so of Lucky Number Slevin. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.10 14:08:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 10/01/2011 14:10:33
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith bad......
This is what you're asking.
"Everytime I view a market window I'd like Eve to extend that database query into other tables, pulling more information for each and every line item on the market thus lagging the whole system to death all so that an escrow can be confirmed before any item is purchased."
Unneeded lag for a case that isn't the most common.
No thanx.
OP's proposal will not cause any appreciable lag, because the market orders only need to be checked for that character when money is transfered away from that character. Alternatively, the orders can be checked every our. Te problem you are describing is not an issue.
I fully support Op's proposal, if the buyer is incapable of paying for the good, he should not be on the list.
Half of the players are not even aware of this mechanics.
Quote: they come and take your house.
Well, until i can do that, this should be removed.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2011.01.10 15:17:00 -
[27]
There is no bug and there is no exploit.
If you try to sell to someone who doesnt have the money to complete there buy order then the order gets cancelled and you keep your items.
The fact that you just brought the items off a sell order for vastly inflated prices is entirelly unrelatted to the buy order and is due to your own gullability.
Its your brain thats bugged not the game.
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HolyNerfBatman
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Posted - 2011.01.10 16:20:00 -
[28]
Originally by: De'Veldrin 2) You try to sell to XxD@rthV@d3rUberLeetTradeBotxX - cause it seems like a really good idea since he's paying about ten times more than his next nearest competitor.
Where on the buy order does it list their name?
The bottom line is there is no balance between the risk and reward aspect of the scam/bug/exploit. It is just straight up profit. No risk at all. And before you start waving your broker fee flag around, that is peanuts, a drop in the bucket compared to the insane amount of ISK you make exploiting the bug.
People in here like to throw the word greed at the person trying to complete the order like they are some evil bastard for selling to the highest buy order. What about the person exploiting by zeroing out their wallet and not honoring their buy order? You act like he is a saint.
I am not proposing that the person putting up the sell order lose his house if he can't complete it, just simply that it is automatically canceled when he can no longer cover the cost of the minimum buy amount.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:10:00 -
[29]
Originally by: WEELLLPS RIGHTSIDE
- The requested feature would not make the query unless a user specifically requests it on an individual order.
.
How would you explain the very esoteric function of this button placed in an overly prominent area to the noobs and other 99% of eve players who are never effected by this issue?
Adding a button for this tiny case is all well and good, now come up with a UI for it that isn't dumb.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: De'Veldrin The only difference between Eve and the real world is that in the real world, if you don't have enough cash to cover the margin and the deal goes south, they come and take your house.
In Eve they just cancel the buy order, and you get to keep the stuff you were trying to sell to sell to another buyer.
There are no consequences for the action. If you want to scam using margin trading, at least make sure you have the funds to cover the purchase your specified minimum quantity of X.
Alternately, having a margin trade fall through should have some consequence - such as a sec status hit, standings penalty with the Corp whose station you used for your business, etc.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
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