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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.10 19:59:00 -
[1]
3rd Party Loan Market A 3rd party loan market could provide the following points of value that in-game contracts and the forum does not:
- A more easily searchable history
- The introduction of a peer rating system
- Better facilitation of connecting people seeking credit with people providing credit
IÆd like to touch on the last pointàMD has historically harbored demand that has consistently outstripped desirable investments. Removing barriers between the two WHILE instituting controls over who can request money could improve the ôliquidityö of credit market.
So, with the mention of potential features comes the mention of potential controls.
- Limit how ôyoungö a character is before being allowed to request ISK
- Requests are linked to UserIDÆs (limited API key)
- Limits on the amount of a loan by set criteria
Projects Blog |
Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2011.01.10 20:06:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Corcyrus Endymion on 10/01/2011 20:06:07
Originally by: Hexxx 3rd Party Loan Market A 3rd party loan market could provide the following points of value that in-game contracts and the forum does not:
- A more easily searchable history
- The introduction of a peer rating system
- Better facilitation of connecting people seeking credit with people providing credit
IÆd like to touch on the last pointàMD has historically harbored demand that has consistently outstripped desirable investments. Removing barriers between the two WHILE instituting controls over who can request money could improve the ôliquidityö of credit market.
So, with the mention of potential features comes the mention of potential controls.
- Limit how ôyoungö a character is before being allowed to request ISK
- Requests are linked to UserIDÆs (limited API key)
- Limits on the amount of a loan by set criteria
What makes this different from what's already being done?
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.10 20:20:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
What makes this different from what's already being done? And not just technically, what does this option have that others do not provide? Will this suddenly increase the amount of trustworthy people needing isk? If not, why will this increase the flow of isk?
The things I've described as both improvements and controls are being done sometimes, somewhat, by some people, and in various capacities. What this lacks is a way to ensure the improvements/controls I've cited are realized by individuals. The result? An inconsistent and ambigious market which remains somewhat mysterious to the casual investor sans 15 or 20 minutes of EVE-Search-sleuthing.
It's the difference between informal and unstructured versus formal and structured.
Have I answered your question? Projects Blog |
Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2011.01.10 20:34:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
What makes this different from what's already being done? And not just technically, what does this option have that others do not provide? Will this suddenly increase the amount of trustworthy people needing isk? If not, why will this increase the flow of isk?
The things I've described as both improvements and controls are being done sometimes, somewhat, by some people, and in various capacities. What this lacks is a way to ensure the improvements/controls I've cited are realized by individuals. The result? An inconsistent and ambigious market which remains somewhat mysterious to the casual investor sans 15 or 20 minutes of EVE-Search-sleuthing.
It's the difference between informal and unstructured versus formal and structured.
Have I answered your question?
I feel that you might be overestimating the amount of people that are willing to invest casually. Do you have any strong reason to believe there are many of those?
Even if there would be many of those people, the lacking part is as you said the people starting things they need isk for. Then again if people starting up new businesses are not even willing to go through the slight hassle of using the MD forum and writing up a proper business case, are they people one should be willing to invest in?
Why lower the barrier?
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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.01.10 20:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Hexxx Better facilitation of connecting people seeking credit with people providing credit
This is an excellent idea, and something that has been missing in EVE. It is one of those projects that have been sitting in a shelf for a while.
Do you have an estimated ETA?
Do you have a set of rules regarding collateral?
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.10 20:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
I feel that you might be overestimating the amount of people that are willing to invest casually. Do you have any strong reason to believe there are many of those?
This is really a matter of opinion...and I think our opinions differ on this.
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Even if there would be many of those people, the lacking part is as you said the people starting things they need isk for. Then again if people starting up new businesses are not even willing to go through the slight hassle of using the MD forum and writing up a proper business case, are they people one should be willing to invest in?
Why lower the barrier?
Lowering the barrier may improve credit liquidity, that is to say...the availability of credit. The more liquidity a market has, the more healthy a market is in my opinion. Projects Blog |
Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2011.01.10 20:48:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
I feel that you might be overestimating the amount of people that are willing to invest casually. Do you have any strong reason to believe there are many of those?
This is really a matter of opinion...and I think our opinions differ on this.
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Even if there would be many of those people, the lacking part is as you said the people starting things they need isk for. Then again if people starting up new businesses are not even willing to go through the slight hassle of using the MD forum and writing up a proper business case, are they people one should be willing to invest in?
Why lower the barrier?
Lowering the barrier may improve credit liquidity, that is to say...the availability of credit. The more liquidity a market has, the more healthy a market is in my opinion.
The meat of my question was how to increase the number people that offer bonds. That's where there is a shortage, definitely not on the side of those that are willing to invest. Could you shed a light on this question?
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Manipulation Attempt
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Posted - 2011.01.10 20:48:00 -
[8]
So will this be a website that tracks all of this? Or are you going to be a loan middle-man? Or are you looking to create a sticky thread like the MD questions one that manages to attract 1% of question askers?
The idea that more loans will happen if loans are easier makes sense, but what are the nuts-and-bolts of this operation?
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.10 20:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Hexxx Better facilitation of connecting people seeking credit with people providing credit
This is an excellent idea, and something that has been missing in EVE. It is one of those projects that have been sitting in a shelf for a while.
Do you have an estimated ETA?
Do you have a set of rules regarding collateral?
This is just one of those things that I always considered to have too many technical barriers for me to consider implementing. Recently this changed. The platform (code-named "Solar") I'm building for my insurance project and the ability to use it as a platform for other projects has me taking a new look at some old ideas.
As to the ETA, it's probably a year before I get this this if I choose to persue it. I have a number of things I'd like to do before then.
As for rules about collateral, the idea is to act as a market (similiar to Ebay), connecting buyers and sellers of credit (loans). Ultimately the rules for collateral are up to the people engaged in defining certain aspects of the loan...though that doesn't rule out some requirements. I'm trying to keep it a bit abstract, avoiding specific examples for now.
Projects Blog |
Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.01.10 21:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hexxx This is just one of those things that I always considered to have too many technical barriers for me to consider implementing. Recently this changed. The platform (code-named "Solar") I'm building for my insurance project and the ability to use it as a platform for other projects has me taking a new look at some old ideas.
As to the ETA, it's probably a year before I get this this if I choose to persue it. I have a number of things I'd like to do before then.
As for rules about collateral, the idea is to act as a market (similiar to Ebay), connecting buyers and sellers of credit (loans). Ultimately the rules for collateral are up to the people engaged in defining certain aspects of the loan...though that doesn't rule out some requirements. I'm trying to keep it a bit abstract, avoiding specific examples for now.
I want to remind you that any research work that was started while you were under contract with EBANK remains the intellectual property of EBANK as well as any profits made from this research!
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.01.10 22:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 I want to remind you that any research work that was started while you were under contract with EBANK remains the intellectual property of EBANK as well as any profits made from this research!
The EBANK creditors (aka customers) will - without any doubt - be very pleased to hear this.
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Ave Volta
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
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Posted - 2011.01.10 22:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
I feel that you might be overestimating the amount of people that are willing to invest casually. Do you have any strong reason to believe there are many of those?
This is really a matter of opinion...and I think our opinions differ on this.
I would agree that there are a lot of potential investors sitting on the sidelines due to a general lack trust in investment opportunities. Any structure that would alleviate that problem would be a welcome addition and, like Hexxx said, improve liquidity.
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chown -R us:us /yourbase |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.10 22:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cyaxares II
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 I want to remind you that any research work that was started while you were under contract with EBANK remains the intellectual property of EBANK as well as any profits made from this research!
The EBANK creditors (aka customers) will - without any doubt - be very pleased to hear this.
If my project is successful, if EBANK is still being managed, and if the Board of EBANK agrees at that time...I will attempt to resolve whatever debt remains to the best of my ability as I am able to.
That's quite a side tangent however.
Projects Blog |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2011.01.11 01:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hexxx
Requests are linked to UserIDÆs (limited API key)
That took you some time, Hexxx. Yes, I could link you to the thread where I was asking the community to adopt the same thing years ago as the single most potent means of avoiding (progressive) scams.
A small consideration though, if the API key is not generally available to individuals with investor status (minimal rating), there's no way of keeping credit farming via own alts investing in check.
At the beginning I imagine the system will be used mostly by new players asking for investment, once people get passed their initial reluctance of releasing sensitive information about their current activities, the investment market will become highly liquid and reliable, competition in certain areas will actually subside as passive revenue generating portfolios will gain momentum.
Black Sun Empire |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2011.01.11 01:44:00 -
[15]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 11/01/2011 01:44:53
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
I want to remind you that any research work that was started while you were under contract with EBANK remains the intellectual property of EBANK as well as any profits made from this research!
You're expendable. Please don't clutter my screen with such bs in the future.
Black Sun Empire |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:05:00 -
[16]
Edited by: cosmoray on 11/01/2011 02:09:08 The only thing that is needed is something brings two parties together. A notice board?
I don't need any silly things such as API details. I am an equal opportunity lender.
I will happily lend any amount of money (if I have it), to ANY player that wants it, and more importantly provides me with collateral equalling 110% of the loan.
note: Anyone who loans any ISK in Eve without collateral is someone who will lose their money. Been proven countless times, including EBANK.
Hexx tbh I wouldn't waste my time with anything complicated, as no one would invest without full collateral so no API checks or other details such as posting history, age, etc are not neccesary.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: cosmoray Edited by: cosmoray on 11/01/2011 02:09:08 The only thing that is needed is something brings two parties together. A notice board?
I don't need any silly things such as API details. I am an equal opportunity lender.
I will happily lend any amount of money (if I have it), to ANY player that wants it, and more importantly provides me with collateral equalling 110% of the loan.
note: Anyone who loans any ISK in Eve without collateral is someone who will lose their money. Been proven countless times, including EBANK.
Hexx tbh I wouldn't waste my time with anything complicated, as no one would invest without full collateral so no API checks or other details such as posting history, age, etc are not neccesary.
Best MD post. Ever!
Black Sun Empire |
Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.01.11 06:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: cosmoray note: Anyone who loans any ISK in Eve without collateral is someone who will lose their money.
that blanket statement is just embarrassingly stupid.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.11 12:22:00 -
[19]
Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 11/01/2011 02:43:43
Originally by: Hexxx
Requests are linked to UserIDÆs (limited API key)
That took you some time, Hexxx. Yes, I could link you to the thread where I was asking the community to adopt the same thing years ago as the single most potent means of avoiding (progressive) scams.
A small consideration though, if the API key is not generally available to individuals with investor status (minimal rating), there's no way of keeping credit rating farming via own alts investing in check.
At the beginning I imagine the system will be used mostly by new players asking for investment, once people get passed their initial reluctance of releasing sensitive information about their current activities, the investment market will become highly liquid and reliable, competition in certain areas will actually subside as passive revenue generating portfolios will gain momentum.
First, yes, no single point I wrote about was a new idea. These things have been discussed before, in some cases quite alot, however I haven't seen them all tied together into a proposal similar to the one I've written. I am borrowing on existing ideas (good ideas at that) and suggesting a way they can all work together for a greater benefit.
As for rep farming...a very real and legitimate concern. I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate it...but hopefully by introducing human moderation and other controls it could be limited and reduced.
I'm currently exploring the notion of "marketplaces". A notion of creating markets for certain kinds of services which don't exist today. Some of my thoughts on this include:
- Player-run Insurance marketplace (as products) - Loan marketplace (as a service) - Reporting marketplace (as a service) - A stock/bond exchange (as a service)
Projects Blog |
Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2011.01.11 17:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
The meat of my question was how to increase the number people that offer bonds. That's where there is a shortage, definitely not on the side of those that are willing to invest. Could you shed a light on this question?
Quoting myself for some actual chance of getting an answer.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.11 18:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
The meat of my question was how to increase the number people that offer bonds. That's where there is a shortage, definitely not on the side of those that are willing to invest. Could you shed a light on this question?
Quoting myself for some actual chance of getting an answer.
My apologies, I missed your reply.
I want to make a distinction between bonds and loans here...in my opinion these are entirely different animals. A loan is a contract of sorts between two individuals; one person providing another person credit. Bonds on the other hand are a contract between a group of individuals and a single person; the group providing the person credit.
I think the reason why people don't like to release bonds is because it requires a bit more effort and it's much harder to re-negotiate the terms of the credit offered with an individual.
I also do have an idea on how to improve bond offerings, but it'd be partly replicating what's already being done...providing a real-time exchange like what Block has done. Projects Blog |
Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2011.01.11 19:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
The meat of my question was how to increase the number people that offer bonds. That's where there is a shortage, definitely not on the side of those that are willing to invest. Could you shed a light on this question?
Quoting myself for some actual chance of getting an answer.
My apologies, I missed your reply.
I want to make a distinction between bonds and loans here...in my opinion these are entirely different animals. A loan is a contract of sorts between two individuals; one person providing another person credit. Bonds on the other hand are a contract between a group of individuals and a single person; the group providing the person credit.
I think the reason why people don't like to release bonds is because it requires a bit more effort and it's much harder to re-negotiate the terms of the credit offered with an individual.
I also do have an idea on how to improve bond offerings, but it'd be partly replicating what's already being done...providing a real-time exchange like what Block has done.
I see. No offense was taken, no need to apologize.
I might have come over a bit negative and aggressive, however I would welcome any mechanic that would improve the MD.
The only "problem" I see is that it's already very easy to get a collateralized loan (just ask Cosmo for instance) and not very business savy to give out uncollaterized loans. I doubt the influx of your idea would be worth the effort and time you would need to spend, though I'm prepared to be proven wrong
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.11 19:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
The only "problem" I see is that it's already very easy to get a collateralized loan (just ask Cosmo for instance) and not very business savy to give out uncollaterized loans. I doubt the influx of your idea would be worth the effort and time you would need to spend, though I'm prepared to be proven wrong
To be fair, getting a loan is possible today and happens all the time relatively speaking. I'm not trying to fix an obvious problem...but addressing what I view as a opportunity to significantly improve what already takes place. When I released my IPO template, it was not because IPO's weren't being done (they were). It was to make creating an IPO easier. I'm pretty happy with how that turned out.
Again, to qualify what I'm saying, this is my opinion and while I will certainly admit I can be wrong, I do not think this is one of those times.
Along the same line, if someone made auditing easier...perhaps audits would occur more frequently? (disclosure: I'm already designing an automated accounting/auditing program based on FICO) Projects Blog |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2011.01.11 21:03:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hexxx
As for rep farming...a very real and legitimate concern. I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate it...but hopefully by introducing human moderation and other controls it could be limited and reduced.
Precisely what I was thinking, a set of carefully designed controls that would render systematic scamming less profitable / more time consuming to set up.
Originally by: Hexxx
I'm currently exploring the notion of "marketplaces". A notion of creating markets for certain kinds of services which don't exist today. Some of my thoughts on this include:
- Player-run Insurance marketplace (as products) - Loan marketplace (as a service) - Reporting marketplace (as a service) - A stock/bond exchange (as a service)
Definitely something worth adding to the current market environment, furthermore, if your manage to minimize the human interaction and include some degree of automatization / general availability in those services we wouldn't have to devise intricate security controls that would later be usurped and exploited.
Originally by: Hexxx
(disclosure: I'm already designing an automated accounting/auditing program based on FICO)
That's what I wanted to hear.
Black Sun Empire |
RAW23
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Posted - 2011.01.12 09:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: cosmoray
note: Anyone who loans any ISK in Eve without collateral is someone who will lose their money. Been proven countless times, including EBANK.
Should those people who have bought your unsecured bonds and shares take this as a prediction of what is going to happen to their isk?
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