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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
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CCP Yokai
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Posted - 2011.01.12 13:07:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Kalle Demos So what if there was a PCU explosion after an expansion and suddenly everyone from wow decided to play eve, what would CCP do?
Actually if what I read was correct based on our current setup if everyone with currently active accounts decided to log in, not everyone would manage to get in.
I'm assuming they would probably have to limit subscriptions while they bought more hardware? This is even before taking into account your question.
Get to 100K PCU and you'll have CCP devs running around all day making it work... don't you worry :)
the only hard limit I see is the Sol max numbers. the Numbers I gave for PCU max on Proxies are just what I said... alll we have tested/calculated so far.
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2011.01.12 13:17:00 -
[32]
Since we're on the topic of what the server can handle <grins> what can a reinforced node handle and how many reinforced nodes can we have at any given time?
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments <0> |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.01.12 13:48:00 -
[33]
The actual limits of Eve are design issues more than hardware limitations anyways.
Eve encourages the accumulation of players in one system and often even on the same grid through game design flaws left to linger around. The sov system and moon goo sources are good examples of such limits, as is the obsolence of dreads due to dps and ehp inflation (read: power creep).
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.12 14:04:00 -
[34]
Originally by: CCP Yokai There are 7929 sol's (including Polaris, Jove, wormholes, and other spaces not accessable today to normal players)
Colour me intrigued...
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Forum Guy
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Posted - 2011.01.12 14:09:00 -
[35]
So what if everyone went to Rens for the day, assuming Rens does not have limits imposed on it like Jita.
Would it crash?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.12 14:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Shintai As technology progresses. So does EvEs capabilities.
Sadly it doesnt really all that much.
Well processors get faster, but lately they do that for a good part by increasing the amount of cores increasing, as long as CCPs nodes are not multithreaded, that does not really help.
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Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.01.12 14:40:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Rainus Max on 12/01/2011 14:40:17
Originally by: CCP Yokai Edited by: CCP Yokai on 12/01/2011 12:27:38 TL;R
Love CCP Yokai
Please for the love of god add a couple of new solar systems if we ever get anywhere near those numbers (when we pass a PCU of 60k would be nice *hint hint wink wink*).
and imagine the fleet battles.... 10K, well just pop over here and instapop that faction large resist POS!
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CCP Yokai
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Posted - 2011.01.12 14:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Shintai As technology progresses. So does EvEs capabilities.
Sadly it doesnt really all that much.
Well processors get faster, but lately they do that for a good part by increasing the amount of cores increasing, as long as CCPs nodes are not multithreaded, that does not really help.
Not 100% true. We were able to determine in the Jita 2000+ test that the latency to RAM impacted performance more than the CPU changes. So while the clock rate on CPU's will not get much better... other barriers being broken on latency and access to memory controllers help lessen the burden on CPU thus netting us better performance on similar clock rates.
Software and hardware both make an impact and will continue to.
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Liorah
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Posted - 2011.01.12 14:45:00 -
[39]
Quote: This seems correct. Unlike WoW or any other MMO that has muliple servers, when you cross zones "systems" there is no loading, it happens in an instant.
There are several "world clusters" within a single WoW "realm". You can see this most notably right after a patch when the game is unstable. The world clusters will crash independently. You could still be playing in the older content while Northrend crashed, and attempts to log into characters in Northrend would temporarily fail.
You have a world for Eastern Kingdoms (Stormwind, Ironforge, etc), Kalimdor (Darnassus, the Barrens), Burning Crusade (Outland, and the Draenei/Blood Elf starting areas), and Northrend. There are also one or more world clusters to handle instances. There is probably another world cluster for the new Cataclysm areas not already covered by Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor, but I have no experience with the game as it is now.
You actually do have loading screens, they're just infrequent. When you step on a boat or zeppelin or use a portal to travel somewhere else, you get the loading screen. Entering the Blood Elf lands from the Plaguelands sends you to a loading screen. Your connection is being moved to a different world cluster.
What it sounds like they do is spread the load across a cluster, instead of having one large beefy machine or core to handle the whole shebang. For Eve to grow, it will need to be redesigned to distribute the load from a single system across multiple hosts, which could require a completely different thought process than exists at CCP right now (distributed computing requires a different approach to traditional programming). Then the bottlenecks will become host-host communication within a cluster, and cluster-database communication.
If Eve does threaten to grow to that extent, CCP will change what needs to be changed to allow it to grow. Unexpectedly fast growth would likely result in a queue at login while CCP adjusts.
It would be a good idea for them to work on this now, while it's still low priority, rather than wait for it to become an emergency.
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ivar R'dhak
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Posted - 2011.01.12 15:06:00 -
[40]
Edited by: ivar R''dhak on 12/01/2011 15:06:09
Originally by: CCP Yokai So while the clock rate on CPU's will not get much better... other barriers being broken on latency and access to memory controllers help lessen the burden on CPU thus netting us better performance on similar clock rates.
Software and hardware both make an impact and will continue to.
VERY interesting! Thank you very much for the info. Do you think the massive parallelism of new next gen. graphic cards will eventually be harnessed on the EVE servers?
Hope there¦ll be a panel on this on the fanfest. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦ |
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.01.12 15:25:00 -
[41]
Originally by: ivar R'dhak
Originally by: CCP Yokai So while the clock rate on CPU's will not get much better... other barriers being broken on latency and access to memory controllers help lessen the burden on CPU thus netting us better performance on similar clock rates.
Software and hardware both make an impact and will continue to.
VERY interesting! Thank you very much for the info. Do you think the massive parallelism of new next gen. graphic cards will eventually be harnessed on the EVE servers?
Hope there¦ll be a panel on this on the fanfest.
Last time Team Gridlock talked about this it was denied. They won't rewrite the server-code to run on CUDA/etc. support Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
yani dumyat
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.01.12 15:32:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sader Rykane What is the limit of a single shard universe?
You know you've overdone it when the hamster rebellion starts, though in truth it's the true sanshas hamsters you should worry about. _______
Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel. |
ivar R'dhak
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Posted - 2011.01.12 17:20:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: ivar R'dhak
Originally by: CCP Yokai So while the clock rate on CPU's will not get much better... other barriers being broken on latency and access to memory controllers help lessen the burden on CPU thus netting us better performance on similar clock rates.
Software and hardware both make an impact and will continue to.
VERY interesting! Thank you very much for the info. Do you think the massive parallelism of new next gen. graphic cards will eventually be harnessed on the EVE servers?
Hope there¦ll be a panel on this on the fanfest.
Last time Team Gridlock talked about this it was denied. They won't rewrite the server-code to run on CUDA/etc.
Yes, I know. Was hoping for a general idea where CCP stands or even if Team Gridlock is thinking ahead of just optimizing old code stuck in the single threaded/one processor past. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦ |
Mavnas
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Posted - 2011.01.12 18:42:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Liorah
Quote: This seems correct. Unlike WoW or any other MMO that has muliple servers, when you cross zones "systems" there is no loading, it happens in an instant.
There are several "world clusters" within a single WoW "realm". You can see this most notably right after a patch when the game is unstable. The world clusters will crash independently. You could still be playing in the older content while Northrend crashed, and attempts to log into characters in Northrend would temporarily fail.
You have a world for Eastern Kingdoms (Stormwind, Ironforge, etc), Kalimdor (Darnassus, the Barrens), Burning Crusade (Outland, and the Draenei/Blood Elf starting areas), and Northrend. There are also one or more world clusters to handle instances. There is probably another world cluster for the new Cataclysm areas not already covered by Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor, but I have no experience with the game as it is now.
You actually do have loading screens, they're just infrequent. When you step on a boat or zeppelin or use a portal to travel somewhere else, you get the loading screen. Entering the Blood Elf lands from the Plaguelands sends you to a loading screen. Your connection is being moved to a different world cluster.
You don't need loading screens to have multiple clusters. In games like Vanguard and DAoC, when you crossed zone lines you could get brief game freezes/lag. I'm pretty sure those were caused by moving from one cluster to another. I could be wrong.
Quote: What it sounds like they do is spread the load across a cluster, instead of having one large beefy machine or core to handle the whole shebang. For Eve to grow, it will need to be redesigned to distribute the load from a single system across multiple hosts, which could require a completely different thought process than exists at CCP right now (distributed computing requires a different approach to traditional programming). Then the bottlenecks will become host-host communication within a cluster, and cluster-database communication.
If EVE ever grew that far, what they should do IMO is provide a few islands of high sec space far from Jita in otherwise low/null sec space with a large number of exits to local systems, which would make natural trade hubs. That or just increasing the number of systems and lengthing the max number of jumps between systems enough to encourage more local trade/mission hubs.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.01.12 19:59:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: CCP Yokai There are 7929 sol's (including Polaris, Jove, wormholes, and other spaces not accessable today to normal players)
Colour me intrigued...
me too! I wanna go there!
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.12 20:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: CCP Yokai Edited by: CCP Yokai on 12/01/2011 12:27:38 TL;DR
Current Proxy limits: 81,000 to 99,000 PCU Current Sol limits: 323,600 PCU
Ideal Proxy limits: 192,000 PCU Ideal Sol limits: 1,585,800 PCU
----- NO NEW HARDWARE -----
Proxy Limits:
27 proxies give us about 81,000 PCU on today's startup 6 spare proxies could be enabled on any startup taking us to 99,000 PCU
Solarsystem Limitations (assuming no proxy cap)
1600 players in a Jita type playstyle (docked and spinning ships) 200 (normal) sol nodes running (minus any service nodes) so that would put us at a max of 320,000 + 2 super nodes that can handle an additional 2000 each in Jita or more...
making the max on current hardware 324,000
---- NEW HARDWARE ----
Assuming we take proxies to 64 nodes (max math we have done to date... not to say it's impossible to do more... just what I think we can do.) We could easily get to 192,000 PCU
If you just want to look at max solarsystem numbers...
Each sol could handle 2000+ players There are 7929 sol's (including Polaris, Jove, wormholes, and other spaces not accessable today to normal players)
1,585,800 max players... (before Incarna, it changes things a bit more)
Love CCP Yokai
These numbers explain much about why ccp marketing has always seemed anemic at best. So with those types of low maximum limits there is no way in hell the game could survive going 'mainstream' like wow.
Well I always like eve as a niche game anyways.
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2011.01.12 20:16:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: Akita T Google seems to handle it quite well, but then again, they have entire buildings full of servers
eh, good point...although i dunno if running a giant singlesharded universe carries the same hurdles as indexing the entire internets
I shudder to imagine how big a building the EVE server would need at ~10,000 nodes (7500 systems at one node/system plus proxies and various service nodes and databases), not to mention power and heat dissipation requirements...
I think they must first determine whether Iceland has the capabilities to handle all this.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2011.01.12 20:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: Akita T Google seems to handle it quite well, but then again, they have entire buildings full of servers
eh, good point...although i dunno if running a giant singlesharded universe carries the same hurdles as indexing the entire internets
I shudder to imagine how big a building the EVE server would need at ~10,000 nodes (7500 systems at one node/system plus proxies and various service nodes and databases), not to mention power and heat dissipation requirements...
I think they must first determine whether Iceland has the capabilities to handle all this.
Servers are in London. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2011.01.12 20:34:00 -
[49]
I think ccp should host a break the server day, if we can breat 86000 PCU and crash the server, we all get free dramiels, or silver mangates.
Or anything really cool! maybe jove ships!
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.12 20:40:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: Akita T Google seems to handle it quite well, but then again, they have entire buildings full of servers
eh, good point...although i dunno if running a giant singlesharded universe carries the same hurdles as indexing the entire internets
I shudder to imagine how big a building the EVE server would need at ~10,000 nodes (7500 systems at one node/system plus proxies and various service nodes and databases), not to mention power and heat dissipation requirements...
I think they must first determine whether Iceland has the capabilities to handle all this.
Servers are in London.
Yeah. CCP can always grab some chavs off the street and put them in supersize hamster wheels. Put a bottle of vodka and a sack of kak in front of them with a bobbie behind them yelling to stop and tooting his whistle.
They will run forever.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.01.12 20:59:00 -
[51]
*tinfoil on*
Originally by: CCP Yokai (including Polaris, Jove, wormholes, and other spaces not accessable today to normal players)
What do you mean by "other spaces"?
No, actually, don't answer that. Consult with the storyline department and NDA first. *tinfoil off*
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Kylira Ulfrinn
Blackstaff Logistics
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Posted - 2011.01.12 21:35:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik *tinfoil on*
Originally by: CCP Yokai (including Polaris, Jove, wormholes, and other spaces not accessable today to normal players)
What do you mean by "other spaces"?
No, actually, don't answer that. Consult with the storyline department and NDA first. *tinfoil off*
That would be a reference to Infinite Fun Space, of course. |
Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.01.12 21:45:00 -
[53]
He probably means the new incarna servers for all the new out of pod players walking around in stations. Apparently when you dock up you drop off the local node to a special incarna node.
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.01.12 22:11:00 -
[54]
I have no idea why everybody assumes an uniform distribution of people across the universe. There is nothing indicating that as you add more players, the current distribution will change significantly.
In other words, if you double the number of subscribers, you will see a 6,500 man battle. I don't see that happening anytime soon with the state of server hardware and software. ___________
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Michwich
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Posted - 2011.01.12 23:00:00 -
[55]
Who cares. Only thing that matters is how many players I can see and interact with before my computer starts to lag and the games unplayable. Seems to be around 100 max players. *yawn*
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
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Posted - 2011.01.12 23:49:00 -
[56]
I digged this video up about past PCU records in eve and an outlook on the near future.
Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cEL48LkVDk&feature=related
Jill.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.13 00:46:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: CCP Yokai There are 7929 sol's (including Polaris, Jove, wormholes, and other spaces not accessable today to normal players)
Colour me intrigued...
me too! I wanna go there!
my understanding is that a lot of thoes systems that are on the main server are more or less just database entries to make the RNG work properly when it needs to randomly do things like place Exploration sights. Others are leftover bits from various development projects, some only exist on the dev servers and/or Sisi and some only exist as part of the games "lore"
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Sue Cheng
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Posted - 2011.01.13 15:38:00 -
[58]
You say that the RAM and RAM controllers are an identified bottleneck and that higher clock rates does not better the performance too much. The conclusion that multithreading and parallel exceution would not enhance performance that much, compared to say -> faster RAM is not entirely true.
Actually your need for RAM and faster RAM could even decrease with parallel instructions on an per execution level as of course the total amount of RAM transfer might multiply as you would be able to have more transactions/s. Even if your code was able to multipath, it may even slow down the whole thing if your critical path is bad. So not having reviewed your code obviously I cannot make that assumptions and this is a lot of theorycrafting. Making code faster is not easy to understand and the obvious and easy calculations are often proven wrong, when taking into account that in some cases (see MathLab) refactoring single methods to an embarrassingly parallel (yes that is the name) function can speed up things multiple times, while real world tests have even proven Flynn's taxonomy is nice but useless...
For some game calculation renderings it is even possible that vector processing would be more important than typical multiprocessing. Pair that up with the problems Eve seems to have passing datablobs to nodes (or where does jumplag really come from?), where I do not necessarily mean physical hw nodes, but instruction or service nodes within a hw node... the problem becomes even more complex.
Hence I think a lot of work is done by the Eve devs and I sure hope they have the HPC and Grid experts needed for such a task, as I saw many companies fail on the complexity of parallel computing. And even though technology moves further, there is only so much you can do in terms of CPU speed, RAM speed, RAM SAN, Infiniband or even Myriard etc. in the end it is factoring in all bits and tuning the little knobs that can have large effects, that I have seen on numerous accounts.
I wish the Eve team good luck on this journey that can open so many wonders every SC project I am on is a new excitement and I learn new stuff... I love this fact and yes I may be a nerd (but I get payed real good for it).
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2011.01.13 16:11:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Sue Cheng You say that the RAM and RAM controllers are an identified bottleneck and that higher clock rates does not better the performance too much. The conclusion that multithreading and parallel exceution would not enhance performance that much, compared to say -> faster RAM is not entirely true.
On modern x86 server hardware, single CPUs cores cannot saturate the total memory bandwidth of the system, so pretty much any memory-bound task benefits from multithreading.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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