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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 19 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1004
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Posted - 2012.08.16 10:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello again Features & Ideas. Today we're going to be showing you the current designs for the last three revamped Combat Frigates, set for release this winter.
Many of you will have guessed that the Amarr weren't going to remain the only race with two Combat Frigates. Having the Punisher and Tormentor representing different combat styles within the same general use case is a pattern we want to repeat with the other races, so we're revamping the Kestrel, Tristan and Breacher.
You will also see that the direction we're going with these frigs means that our plans have changed somewhat since the dev blog a few months ago.
Without further ado, here's the ships we have to show you today!
Kestrel: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M (+1), 2 L, 4 launchers Fittings: 45 PWG (+15), 180 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+109) / 350(+37) / 350 (+84) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 165s (-22.5s)/ 2 (+0.667) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (+24) / 3.27(-0.6) / 1163000 / 3.56s (-0.65) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km (+10) / 620 (+155) / 5 (+2) Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric Signature radius: 38 (-9) Cargo capacity: 160 (-145)
Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 (+80)/ 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+14) / 3.44 (-0.41) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
Breacher: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 3 launchers, 0 Turrets (-1) Fittings: 35 PWG (+4), 180 CPU (+45) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+149) / 350(+37) / 300 (+50) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 (+112.5)/ 150s (+9.37s)/ 2 (+0.667) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+16) / 3.16 (-0.62) / 1087000 (-100000) / 3.21s (-0.99) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 (+10) / 10 (+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km (+2.5) / 650 (+75) / 4 (+1) Sensor strength: 8 Ladar Signature radius: 36 (-5) Cargo capacity: 175 |
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Inepsa1987
Caldari Deep Space Ventures
6
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tristan looks nice. Spaceship Pilot. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
158
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Should the Tristan not be named Navitus?!!?!?!??!?!
I only ask because we were all under the impression the Tristan was to be a missle frigate (synergy with Nemesis) and the Navitus a drone boat |
Azula Kishtar
Lonely among the Stars
3
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm a bit confused. The Tormentor was a mining Frigate, so shouldn't this thread be about the Navitas, Burst and Bantam?
Kestrel looks good anyway. Not sure about the other two yet.
Also, i too thought the Tristan was to be a missile Frigate like the Kestrel, Breacher and Inquisitor. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
95
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ooooh, mantanking droneboat. Me like :) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1006
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Like I said, some plans have changed in the past few months. The Navitas will be in the last set of frigates we reveal, but it's no longer planned as a drone damage frigate.
I'm looking forward to that last reveal most of all. Running the latest design past the CSM now, will get it to you asap. |
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Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
49
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
This Tristan look nice ; though I thought the navitas should be a drone boat ; which role will the navitas have ? Drone brawler ?
Is the bonus of the Kestrel for all missiles ? Or only for kinetic ones ? |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
158
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Like I said, some plans have changed in the past few months. The Navitas will be in the last set of frigates we reveal, but it's no longer planned as a drone damage frigate.
Then I'm sorry CCP Fozzie. I'm going to have to "unlike" this purely for the Tristen having no synergy with it's T2 counterpart. I don't know what the final plan is for the Tristan and the Navitas but I do really like the idea of the Kestrel and Breecher being so different but the same.
WTB Drone Navitas and Missile Tristan if possible |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
39
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
i read it like:
Kestrel - long(er) range missile frig; emphazising on the caldari long range philosophy
Tristan - combi drone, blaster brawler (hybrid tracking and drone HP); up close & personal gallente style
Breacher - missile frig; don't know here but shield boost implicates intention to make it more suited for small skirmishes. on the first glance less pronounced to have a certain combat style. suit minmatar.
interesting is the bonus for missiles only, no rockets. kestrel is designed for long range, the breacher seems to be similar but will have a shorter range. im excited to see how this will turn out. 4 mids with a shield boost amount bonus and 3 mids. hardcore range control and asb - goodiness is in the air.
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1006
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:This Tristan look nice ; though I thought the navitas should be a drone boat ; which role will the navitas have ? Drone brawler ?
Is the bonus of the Kestrel for all missiles ? Or only for kinetic ones ?
All missiles. It's a break from the usual Caldari bonuses but in this case we felt it was appropriate.
Spugg Galdon wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Like I said, some plans have changed in the past few months. The Navitas will be in the last set of frigates we reveal, but it's no longer planned as a drone damage frigate. Then I'm sorry CCP Fozzie. I'm going to have to "unlike" this purely for the Tristen having no synergy with it's T2 counterpart. I don't know what the final plan is for the Tristan and the Navitas but I do really like the idea of the Kestrel and Breecher being so different but the same. WTB Drone Navitas and Missile Tristan if possible
We didn't like giving Gallente a missile bonused t1 frigate and then leaving them with a stealth bomber (for which skills in rockets and light missiles actually have 0 impact) as the only possible upgrade. |
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Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
49
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote: Tristan - combi drone, blaster brawler (hybrid tracking and drone HP); up close & personal gallente style
I saw this tristan as a drone kiter infact : drone brawlers have bonuses to drone damage and hybrid damage ; this one won't have enough damage to brawl whereas the tracking allow to use big railguns. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
353
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Fozzie
What about the Inquisitor?
With ASBs as they are, I have a hard time not seeing this new Breacher dominating every other frig in its class. Have you tested this particular aspect yet? An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1007
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:CCP Fozzie
What about the Inquisitor?
It's getting a new role, to be unveiled along with the last set of frigs. |
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
158
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:This Tristan look nice ; though I thought the navitas should be a drone boat ; which role will the navitas have ? Drone brawler ?
Is the bonus of the Kestrel for all missiles ? Or only for kinetic ones ? All missiles. It's a break from the usual Caldari bonuses but in this case we felt it was appropriate. Spugg Galdon wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Like I said, some plans have changed in the past few months. The Navitas will be in the last set of frigates we reveal, but it's no longer planned as a drone damage frigate. Then I'm sorry CCP Fozzie. I'm going to have to "unlike" this purely for the Tristen having no synergy with it's T2 counterpart. I don't know what the final plan is for the Tristan and the Navitas but I do really like the idea of the Kestrel and Breecher being so different but the same. WTB Drone Navitas and Missile Tristan if possible We didn't like giving Gallente a missile bonused t1 frigate and then leaving them with a stealth bomber (for which skills in rockets and light missiles actually have 0 impact) as the only possible upgrade.
I would argue that skills in missile velocities and flight times and damage would effect the Nemesis instead of just plonking them straight into a missile boat without any missile skills.
Also, Ships like the Lachesis have very useful missile slots and bonuses. There is room for progression there but I have an itching in my breechers (no, it's not from the dirty encounter I had from a goon) that the cruiser level Gallente EWAR ships are gonna get refocused into drones |
Azula Kishtar
Lonely among the Stars
3
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote: Tristan - combi drone, blaster brawler (hybrid tracking and drone HP); up close & personal gallente style
I saw this tristan as a drone kiter infact : drone brawlers have bonuses to drone damage and hybrid damage ; this one won't have enough damage to brawl whereas the tracking allow to use big railguns.
Perhaps the tracking bonus is supposed to help the Tristan kill enemy drones that attack it when it keeps range and enemy ships can't reach it with their turrets. Small Blasters track very well already, so they should have no trouble hitting drones with this bonus.
I know someone who will be very upset about the changes to the Kestrel, but i like it, as well the Breacher. ASBs will work great on that ship....
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Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko Tower of Dark Alliance
21
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dear CCP Fozzie, check capacitor amount for Tristan again, it already contains 350 (so no +80) and it's speed is 306 (so +14, not +24)
Recheck the statistics please. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
39
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Azula Kishtar wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote: Tristan - combi drone, blaster brawler (hybrid tracking and drone HP); up close & personal gallente style
I saw this tristan as a drone kiter infact : drone brawlers have bonuses to drone damage and hybrid damage ; this one won't have enough damage to brawl whereas the tracking allow to use big railguns. Perhaps the tracking bonus is supposed to help the Tristan kill enemy drones that attack it when it keeps range and enemy ships can't reach it with their turrets. Small Blasters track very well already, so they should have no trouble hitting drones with this bonus. I know someone who will be very upset about the changes to the Kestrel, but i like it, as well as the Breacher. ASBs will work great on that ship....
didn't thought about the rails ... ^^ but i guess both could be worth testing. but fitting some rails which would make a difference will be hard on the fittings.
as for the breacher, every shield booster will work great. its more of a question, how you plan to use your cap. active shield tanking can be awesome with normal boosters too. actually, asb should use a bit more fitting resources and boost shield amounts depending on cap charge size. would add some depth. |
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
128
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Posted - 2012.08.16 11:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:CCP Fozzie
What about the Inquisitor? It's getting a new role, to be unveiled along with the last set of frigs.
PLEASE keep it a missile frigate i was very much looking foward to the rocket inquisitor. |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
423
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Posted - 2012.08.16 12:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Fozzie, can you guys also please look at other frigates for winter? (i'm thinking the interceptors as I feel the other t2 frigs seem fairly balanced at the moment, sb being weak against other frigs, and good chance of being popped fast by a bc or cruiser, and assault frigs being quite nice at the moment where they can even take on battlecruisers and win)
So yes... please look at the interceptors? Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1007
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Posted - 2012.08.16 12:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Paul Clancy wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie, check capacitor amount for Tristan again, it already contains 350 (so no +80) and it's speed is 306 (so +14, not +24)
Recheck the statistics please.
Thanks for the heads up. The stats for the new ships were correct but the change values were typos, those are now fixed.
Bubanni wrote:CCP Fozzie, can you guys also please look at other frigates for winter? (i'm thinking the interceptors as I feel the other t2 frigs seem fairly balanced at the moment, sb being weak against other frigs, and good chance of being popped fast by a bc or cruiser, and assault frigs being quite nice at the moment where they can even take on battlecruisers and win)
So yes... please look at the interceptors? I am saying this because it would suck if that took an additional half year after all other frigs had been balanced
Don't think ceptors will be able to make it into Winter, but we'll get a look at them as soon as we can. |
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Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
423
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Posted - 2012.08.16 12:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Bubanni wrote:CCP Fozzie, can you guys also please look at other frigates for winter? (i'm thinking the interceptors as I feel the other t2 frigs seem fairly balanced at the moment, sb being weak against other frigs, and good chance of being popped fast by a bc or cruiser, and assault frigs being quite nice at the moment where they can even take on battlecruisers and win)
So yes... please look at the interceptors? I am saying this because it would suck if that took an additional half year after all other frigs had been balanced Don't think ceptors will be able to make it into Winter, but we'll get a look at them as soon as we can.
Understandable :) I love that you guys are working on this though, Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
340
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Posted - 2012.08.16 12:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: [...]
Kestrel: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M (+1), 2 L, 4 launchers Fittings: 45 PWG (+15), 180 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+109) / 350(+37) / 350 (+84) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 165s (-22.5s)/ 2 (+0.667) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (+24) / 3.27(-0.6) / 1163000 / 3.56s (-0.65) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km (+10) / 620 (+155) / 5 (+2) Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric Signature radius: 38 (-9) Cargo capacity: 160 (-145)
[...]
Miniature HM/Nano-Drake, I can haz!
Yaaay'z!! There is a fine and proper artistry to wielding verbal scalpels, such that the crap-poster you've slashed doesn't even know they've been cut. But verbal bludgeons -- Those are just fun. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
248
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Posted - 2012.08.16 12:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35)
Sigh, more of the same, again? Split weapon system, drones and turrets. If you are going to make a drone boat, make it a DRONE boat! No guns, just drones, with bonuses and bay to match. We already have plenty of turret ships with drones. This is just more of the same, with slightly more (1) drones.
Love the drone tracking speed bonus though. That's new and exciting. And HP bonus is great, though truth be told I would like to see a 20% HP boost per level, not 10%. At 10% drones still die too easy, and they're too important on this ship, especially if you're not going to give us the bandwidth to carry more than 1 full flight.
Which brings me to my last point, once again, 25 bandwidth, 40 bay? Why not 50 bay? Give us 2 full flights if we have to warp out in a jiffy and can't wait for drones. Which happens OFTEN. Very, very, very, very, very...[infinity]...very, very often. Would it really be so horrific if we had backups? How does this unbalance the ship? Aside from perhaps adding a smidgeon of flexibility? Besides, all this comes at a cost - if ship is destroyed with 2 flights of drones, it'll cost me more than 1.6 flights. Risk vs reward, flexibility for more ISK. What's the problem?
I say this from a loving place, but perhaps it's time to break the (broken) old mechanic of split weapon systems and weak drone bays and bonuses for drone boats. Drone boats should be drone boats, not 50% turret and 50% drones. We already have tons of ships with 70% whatever and 30% drones or less. Not much of a difference there. |
Martin0
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
47
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Posted - 2012.08.16 12:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
[quote=CCP Fozzie]Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140 /quote]
Thank you very much for not making the tristan a missile boat. I'll start buying some now :D
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Aurum Gallente
The Scope Gallente Federation
41
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Posted - 2012.08.16 12:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'm happy to see tristan like this but 3 med+2 light drones or one sentry in frigate class? It can kill any T1 cruiser or tier-3 BC. If you want to see powerful drone platform just change turret bonus to something useful like drone HP or stasis webifier range or armor resistances. I prefer 0 turrents and long webifier |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1009
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Posted - 2012.08.16 12:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Aurum Gallente wrote:I'm happy to see tristan like this but 3 med+2 light drones or one sentry in frigate class? It can kill any T1 cruiser or tier-3 BC. If you want to see powerful drone platform just change turret bonus to something useful like drone HP or stasis webifier range or armor resistances. I prefer 0 turrents and long webifier
It has 40m3 bay but only 25m3 bandwidth, so 5 light drones or one sentry. |
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Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
32
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Posted - 2012.08.16 12:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
So shouldn't the Inquisitor be in with this group? Or are you just having the Tormentor with this group, and will just switch the Inquisitor into the next group? Which is fine.
The Tristan seems like it has one less slot than the rest of the ships in this group 9 instead of 10. Is that because it has so many more drones?
If the Tormentor is going to be the Frigate of this group can we get a range bonus instead of the cap use bonus or a bigger drone bay?
And can anybody please answer the question of the Amarr cap use bonus? There have been lots of people asking questions and few threads also.
Well thanks for your time. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
159
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Posted - 2012.08.16 12:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
I think Jame Jarl Retief and I are on the same page.
Another argument against a missile frigate being useless for Gallente is that progressing from a missile frigate in all the races to a stealth bomber is EXACTLY the same jump.
The other T1 missile frigates don't use torpedoes so they still have to train rockets/lights for the frigates and torps for the bombers.
Jame Jarl Retief also made a spot on point about the Velator getting a missile bonus but there being no progression from that.
Long stroy short, Make this hull the Navitas or switch the tracking bonus for a missile explosion velocity and give it two launchers. The Worm will cry if you do that though so I would say make the Tristan a missile boat with no drones and the Navitas what you have just proposed |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
42
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Posted - 2012.08.16 13:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Making the Tristan a missile ship also would lessen the sidestep toward the worm, it uses rockets or light missiles. So it would not be wasted SP to train them Edit: Also I really would like to see the Navitas as a drone ship as well. It would look much better then the Tristan, look at the style of the Vexor, Myrmidon, and the Dominix, the Tristan would only be an eye sore in the drone boat line. |
Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
7
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Posted - 2012.08.16 13:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
velator has no missile bonus but a launcher slot.. but more interestingly does this mean the navitas is going to be a face melting blaster boat? like a t1 enyo and the tristan looks like a t1 ishkur |
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The VC's
Spack Force 5
20
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Posted - 2012.08.16 13:15:00 -
[31] - Quote
@ CCP Fozzie
Could you tell us your thinking behind the Tristan only having 9 slots compared to the others 10?
Not that I want a MSE II double DDA II kite b@stard or anything. |
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
29
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Posted - 2012.08.16 13:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
Looks mostly solid to me.
Tristan is more a "Fat man" now :).
Although I wish the 10% explosion dmg on Breacher would have stayed, it is just fine as it is now and it can sting stuff.
I wish Tristan had an Assault Frigate variant... confirthisposmed
Yes. I'm a writer. And I'm a writer. |
DenadanA
Cosmic Clowns Killers Red Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.08.16 13:26:00 -
[33] - Quote
How about amarr drone frigate? |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
357
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Posted - 2012.08.16 13:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Fozzie
Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work.
There are about 20 ships with this bonus and many of the T1 ships with it are just not competitive due to it. I've written some of my thoughts about it here. If you want to look at it, seeing the affected ships in a list makes you realize how far reaching this issue is.
I also want to mention that I'd really like the Inquisitor to be a Khanid ship (rocket damage bonus, armor resist bonus). An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
103
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Posted - 2012.08.16 13:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
I'm liking the changes for the most part.
Kestrel has finally the grid to fit light launchers without a mapc and the other additions should make it a great mission boat, a kiter or a tanky rocket boat. With the light missile buff it should be a very competetive ship. The cargobay decrease will lose the ability to be a low-level hauler but the exploration frigates should pick up that role even better.
Tristan has the full flight of lights but the split weapon bonus isn't usually something that could be called good. It looks like it's supposed to stay at range and support the drone dps with rails. It gets about 120 dps with warrior IIs and 125mms, which is still more than the kestrel's 90-ish or whatever it will be after the patch without damage mods on either so I suppose there is some reasoning done there. However the ship will be more expensive to fit with tech 2 drones than the rest.
The breacher is a... tanky rocket boat with some drones? Is the shield supposed to be as strong as the caldari shield? It makes sense but it might be good to ask if it's intentional since most of the other changes have shown that minmatar has a lower shield amount and the rest of the stats follow the usual layout. Other than that I can't really think of about this ship. The previous post was rated "C" for capsuleer. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
236
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Posted - 2012.08.16 13:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:CCP Fozzie
Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work.
Its a perfectly good bonus. Particularly on hulls that cant really fit a cap booster.
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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
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Posted - 2012.08.16 14:07:00 -
[37] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Like I said, some plans have changed in the past few months. The Navitas will be in the last set of frigates we reveal, but it's no longer planned as a drone damage frigate.
I'm looking forward to that last reveal most of all. Running the latest design past the CSM now, will get it to you asap.
NOOOOOOO! I wanted the Tristan as a missile boat and the Navitas as a Drone boat. Please reconsider. This is worth protesting over.
Also I am sicking the CSM on you:
https://twitter.com/aideronrobotics/status/236100917680803841 https://twitter.com/aideronrobotics/status/236101435492802560 https://twitter.com/aideronrobotics/status/236100917680803841 |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
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Posted - 2012.08.16 14:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
Now I am getting the people that brought the frill back to help:
https://twitter.com/aideronrobotics/status/236102442129960960 |
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
4
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Posted - 2012.08.16 14:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
I assumed that the current t1 frigates already on TQ (Merlin, Rifter, etc.) would offer close-range brawlers, while these three would be long range ships - with long-range weapons. Beams, Railguns, Blasters.
As far as I can see, only the Kestrel can utilize long-range weapons effectively. Why aren't the Tristan/Breacher being redefined as Rail/Arty kitting ships? |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Missiles aside, does the navitas not look like it should be a drone ship? |
|
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Missiles aside, does the navitas not look like it should be a drone ship?
Exactly! It looks like the Vexor and Dominix. Well at least the lines of the ship. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
Also drone tracking speed? This thing is suppose to be a drone sniper with one sentry? It can't even fit two of them. Please go back to the drawing board with this one. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
236
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Also drone tracking speed? This thing is suppose to be a drone sniper with one sentry? It can't even fit two of them. Please go back to the drawing board with this one.
No? Its designed as a frigate brawler. The drone tracking bonus increases dps vs frigates and other light drones |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:26:00 -
[44] - Quote
I agree that drone tracking is a very useful bonus to light drones |
Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
actually its ingenious what ccp fozzie has done it allows the tristan to either use rail/sentry combo or blasters/lights. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:32:00 -
[46] - Quote
Are these meant to be brawlers? I think these are meant to be ranged ships. Look at the stats compared to the close range combat frigates. These are slower and the Tristan has one less tank slot. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Are these meant to be brawlers? I think these are meant to be ranged ships. Look at the stats compared to the close range combat frigates. These are slower and the Tristan has one less tank slot.
not "these". breacher and kestrel are designed for medium to long range. the tristan looks atm like it could do both. the missing slot is strange though. maybe an oversight? |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:39:00 -
[48] - Quote
In fact the Tristan is slower than the Tormentor and Punisher in addition to the one less tank slot (every other combat frigate has 10 slots on the Tristan only 9). |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
401
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:40:00 -
[49] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Missiles aside, does the navitas not look like it should be a drone ship? Exactly! It looks like the Vexor and Dominix. Well at least the lines of the ship. There's an easy fix for this. :)
From: Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level
To Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level
|
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:41:00 -
[50] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Missiles aside, does the navitas not look like it should be a drone ship? Exactly! It looks like the Vexor and Dominix. Well at least the lines of the ship. There's an easy fix for this. :) From: Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level To Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level
Approved. |
|
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
236
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:42:00 -
[51] - Quote
I dont really see how it makes any difference at all. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Missiles aside, does the navitas not look like it should be a drone ship? Exactly! It looks like the Vexor and Dominix. Well at least the lines of the ship. There's an easy fix for this. :) From: Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level To Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Approved. I second this approval |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 14:54:00 -
[53] - Quote
@CCP Fozzie while I like mystery, if you could say at least weather the new navitas design will be used as a drone ship, it yes I think we will be happy with the Tristan. |
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
244
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:14:00 -
[54] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:In fact the Tristan is slower than the Tormentor and Punisher in addition to the one less tank slot (every other combat frigate has 10 slots on the Tristan only 9).
It doesn't have one less tank slot. It has one less High slot, and that's only because it has a whole bunch of drones. And most Gallente ships have one low traded for a mid compared to Amarrian ships.
I say Tristan being a drone boat is awesome. Less missiles on Gallente, more drones!
And why are people getting so worked up about the Drone boat slot being passed to the Tristan rather than the Navitis? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that! do still wonder about what the Navitis is going to be though, but we'll have to wait and see. http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
|
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
320
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:16:00 -
[55] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:CCP Fozzie
Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work.
It would be a complete waste of time to pause Tiericide to rework Amarr ships - many of which are balanced fine with the cap use bonus - and then have to rework them again when the delayed Tiericide was resumed. |
Zoofelynn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:18:00 -
[56] - Quote
How come "small" balance changes have to come along a big expansion? Why not just continuously balance and put these changes and other upcoming balance changes into small patches that can be applied during a regular maintenance?
To be fair, it doesn't take months to come up with the changes currently suggested. With this pace it's gonna take until 2020 before all ships have been looked at. |
mkint
869
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:28:00 -
[57] - Quote
So... Tristan is going to be a better drone boat than ishkur? Same bandwidth plus drone bonuses. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:29:00 -
[58] - Quote
Grideris wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:In fact the Tristan is slower than the Tormentor and Punisher in addition to the one less tank slot (every other combat frigate has 10 slots on the Tristan only 9). It doesn't have one less tank slot. It has one less High slot, and that's only because it has a whole bunch of drones. And most Gallente ships have one low traded for a mid compared to Amarrian ships. I say Tristan being a drone boat is awesome. Less missiles on Gallente, more drones! And why are people getting so worked up about the Drone boat slot being passed to the Tristan rather than the Navitis? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that! do still wonder about what the Navitis is going to be though, but we'll have to wait and see.
I would like one missile ship in Gallente other than the Nemesis. I'm not saying less drone ships. What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
I'm not sure how you are counting but the Tristan does have one less slot than the other ships. This would be a low slot not a high slot. |
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
244
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:30:00 -
[59] - Quote
mkint wrote:So... Tristan is going to be a better drone boat than ishkur? Same bandwidth plus drone bonuses.
For now that will be the case. Ishkur will still be tougher and do more damage itself, but I'm hoping they add the same bonus to the Ishkur (it currently only has the drone HP bonus, no drone tracking). http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
|
Brunaburh
Aurora Security NZAU Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:39:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:This Tristan look nice ; though I thought the navitas should be a drone boat ; which role will the navitas have ? Drone brawler ?
Is the bonus of the Kestrel for all missiles ? Or only for kinetic ones ? All missiles. It's a break from the usual Caldari bonuses but in this case we felt it was appropriate. Spugg Galdon wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Like I said, some plans have changed in the past few months. The Navitas will be in the last set of frigates we reveal, but it's no longer planned as a drone damage frigate. Then I'm sorry CCP Fozzie. I'm going to have to "unlike" this purely for the Tristen having no synergy with it's T2 counterpart. I don't know what the final plan is for the Tristan and the Navitas but I do really like the idea of the Kestrel and Breecher being so different but the same. WTB Drone Navitas and Missile Tristan if possible We didn't like giving Gallente a missile bonused t1 frigate and then leaving them with a stealth bomber (for which skills in rockets and light missiles actually have 0 impact) as the only possible upgrade.
So what's the point of having a Gallente T2 stealth bomber at all?
Seriously, you've now laid out that there isn't a single Gallente frigate that requires any missile skills. The whole "racial" combat platform of drones + blasters sounds good in your head maybe, but doesn't make sense from a gameplay standpoint. Blaster boats have to be point blank and are armor tanked, so are slow to get into range and do their damage. Drone - focused boats aren't practical in PvP unless you are a suicide PVP player, because of drone recall times in GTFO situations. You've taken one of the most offensive ships in the Gallente frigate fleet and crippled it.
In addition, you've now set up a good number of Gallente T2 frigates to be suboptimal straight off of the T1 frigates. due to a lack of any missile boats. Gallente have always had a harder time due to mixed platform training for weapons (drones, guns, missiles) and now you take away one of the useful cross-train paths. Seriously, think about it.
Just a reminder about the supposed upgrade to the Tristan:
Name: Nemesis Hull: Tristan Class Role: Stealth Bomber
Specifically engineered to fire torpedoes, stealth bombers represent the next generation in covert ops craft. The bombers are designed for sneak attacks on large vessels with powerful missile guidance technology enabling the torpedoes to strike faster and from a longer distance.
Developer: Duvolle Laboratories
Duvolle Labs manufactures sturdy ships with a good mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. Being the foremost manufacturer of particle blasters, its ships tend to favor turrets and thus have somewhat higher power output than normal.
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to torpedo explosion velocity and flight time per level 20% bonus to torpedo velocity per level
To even touch this ship now you have to train a month of missile skills that have no bearing whatsoever to any other gallente frigate. |
|
Drew Solaert
Wildcard Inc.
198
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:39:00 -
[61] - Quote
I was really hoping for a Fap worthy rocket tristan with a armour rep bonus.
Dreams shattered. Though this drone Tristan is not bad at all. Would love to see the tracking bonus dropped for something else, admittly 5% hybrid damage per level would be a little bit OP with the drones and an armour rep bonus would make it silly for pve.
Still. Good job CCP. Also that breacher, I might have to give that a whirl. I lied :o
|
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1011
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:41:00 -
[62] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror.......
Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight. |
|
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
244
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:43:00 -
[63] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.
BRB, buying all the small armour reps. http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:45:00 -
[64] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight. I knew deep down in my gut where the navitas was headed, im not sure i like it, it was far more exciting when it was going to be a drone ship. |
Erim Solfara
inFluX.
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:47:00 -
[65] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:CCP Fozzie
What about the Inquisitor? It's getting a new role, to be unveiled along with the last set of frigs.
I'm not following the paradigm here, are all the races getting 2 combat frigates? If so, why on earth is the mining frigate becoming a combat frig, and a combat frig becoming something else?
Inquisitor should be in this group as far as I can tell from the information we have already. Would much rather the Tormentor became the new non-combat ship. |
Adolf Hilmar
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
88
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:47:00 -
[66] - Quote
Nooo! Don't nerf my cyno kestrel's cargo hold. I need that space for ozone. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
402
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:55:00 -
[67] - Quote
Brunaburh wrote:
We didn't like giving Gallente a missile bonused t1 frigate and then leaving them with a stealth bomber (for which skills in rockets and light missiles actually have 0 impact) as the only possible upgrade.
So what's the point of having a Gallente T2 stealth bomber at all?
Seriously, you've now laid out that there isn't a single Gallente frigate that requires any missile skills. The whole "racial" combat platform of drones + blasters sounds good in your head maybe, but doesn't make sense from a gameplay standpoint. Blaster boats have to be point blank and are armor tanked, so are slow to get into range and do their damage. Drone - focused boats aren't practical in PvP unless you are a suicide PVP player, because of drone recall times in GTFO situations. You've taken one of the most offensive ships in the Gallente frigate fleet and crippled it.
In addition, you've now set up a good number of Gallente T2 frigates to be suboptimal straight off of the T1 frigates. due to a lack of any missile boats. Gallente have always had a harder time due to mixed platform training for weapons (drones, guns, missiles) and now you take away one of the useful cross-train paths. Seriously, think about it.[/quote] +1 CCP. Reduce number of mixed weapons systems; reduce mixed platform training; get rid of missiles on Gallente hulls. Fire that missile loving traitor Jacques Roden!
Seriously, the only decent missile boat (besides the stealth bomber which stands apart like the Tier 3 BC) the Gallente have is the Lachesis - and it only uses three of the five high slots for missiles (which is fail btw). So there's no real progression for missiles anyways. No, the Celestis doesn't count - nobody puts missiles on them.
Finally, the only solution for GTFO situations is that the player has to accept the fact that he's going to be purchasing alot of drones. It's the cost of doing business as a Gallente pilot - along with higher hull prices across the board.
|
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:55:00 -
[68] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.
It looks more like the Vexor and Dominix than the Exequror. Since the Gallente get shafted at everything how about making its logistics frigates and combat/logistics frigate? Rep bonus + drone damage bonus? If you do that to the Navitas that would be hot!
|
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:56:00 -
[69] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: Finally, the only solution for GTFO situations is that the player has to accept the fact that he's going to be purchasing alot of drones. It's the cost of doing business as a Gallente pilot - along with higher hull prices across the board.
Not only purchasing lots of drones but going back to resupply quite often because he can't recall them fast enough. The lack of drone bay is a serious design flaw. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:02:00 -
[70] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight. It looks more like the Vexor and Dominix than the Exequror. Since the Gallente get shafted at everything how about making its logistics frigates and combat/logistics frigate? Rep bonus + drone damage bonus? If you do that to the Navitas that would be hot! That would be OP but so cool to see happen |
|
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:09:00 -
[71] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight. It looks more like the Vexor and Dominix than the Exequror. Since the Gallente get shafted at everything how about making its logistics frigates and combat/logistics frigate? Rep bonus + drone damage bonus? If you do that to the Navitas that would be hot! That would be OP but so cool to see happen
I would rather OP than subpar and useless. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1868
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:12:00 -
[72] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Kestrel: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M (+1), 2 L, 4 launchers Fittings: 45 PWG (+15), 180 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+109) / 350(+37) / 350 (+84) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 165s (-22.5s)/ 2 (+0.667) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (+24) / 3.27(-0.6) / 1163000 / 3.56s (-0.65) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km (+10) / 620 (+155) / 5 (+2) Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric Signature radius: 38 (-9) Cargo capacity: 160 (-145)
Let me make sure I understand this change. You're replacing the 10% kinetic damage bonus with a 10% missile velocity bonus and giving it an extra mid. I'd say that chances are the new Kestrel is inferior to the old one despite the extra mid and fittings. What do you say to a 5% ROF bonus over that 5% Damage bonus?
Also, please don't ruin the "Cyno Kessie". I don't have any particular love of the Kestrel for cynoing since I have cyno 5 on all my alts, but it's... history. And I'm sentimental. :)
Quote: Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
You know, I really expected the Navitas to be the drone boat. I'm really glad that we're getting a reasonable drone frigate, because it's totally different than the Atron and Incursus. However, this particular incarnation doesn't feel very compelling for some reason. Maybe it's the 40m^3 drone bay? Maybe it's my skepticism of the drone tracking bonus?
Comfort my fears: Have you tested whether this drone tracking speed bonus makes a difference with fast drones shooting fast ships with small hitboxes? What practical DPS difference can I expect when shooting an AB Slasher with a set of Warriors?
Quote: Breacher: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 3 launchers, 0 Turrets (-1) Fittings: 35 PWG (+4), 180 CPU (+45) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+149) / 350(+37) / 300 (+50) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 (+112.5)/ 150s (+9.37s)/ 2 (+0.667) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+16) / 3.16 (-0.62) / 1087000 (-100000) / 3.21s (-0.99) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 (+10) / 10 (+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km (+2.5) / 650 (+75) / 4 (+1) Sensor strength: 8 Ladar Signature radius: 36 (-5) Cargo capacity: 175
This... is interesting. I admit that I was hoping to see all active tank bonuses go to that 10%/level the Incursus got, but I guess shields get the hilariously overpowered ASB and I shouldn't complain. I'm not sure which way I'd leap when presented with the speed of a Condor or a bonused medium ASB. I feel like the sig radius will tip me in favor of an ASB Condor though.
I expect that the two drones is actually makes for a DPS advantage over the Condor, but I think I'd still prefer to see them moved into a high + launcher.
But hell, I should just be glad you're buffing frigs. And even if they go live as you put here, I'm still enjoying the hell out of the Executioner. I'm sure I'll find a reason to like these guys. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1868
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:14:00 -
[73] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:CCP Fozzie
What about the Inquisitor?
With ASBs as they are, I have a hard time not seeing this new Breacher dominating every other frig in its class. Have you tested this particular aspect yet?
The Executioner will destroy the Breacher.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Makalie
Estel Arador Corp Services
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:14:00 -
[74] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Oh dear god please, this. Logi frigates! Please! And T1 logi cruisers, besides the Exequror, would be rad, though I suppose cross training up to that wasn't that bad. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1868
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:17:00 -
[75] - Quote
Kethry Avenger wrote: And can anybody please answer the question of the Amarr cap use bonus? There have been lots of people asking questions and few threads also.
What do you mean: the question of the Amarr cap use bonus? It's freaking awesome on ships with some kind of damage bonus!
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1868
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:19:00 -
[76] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:CCP Fozzie Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work. There are about 20 ships with this bonus and many of the T1 ships with it are just not competitive due to it. I've written some of my thoughts about it here. If you want to look at it, seeing the affected ships in a list makes you realize how far reaching this issue is. I also want to mention that I'd really like the Inquisitor to be a Khanid ship (rocket damage bonus, armor resist bonus).
I really like the bonus on both the Executioner and Tormentor. The Executioner in particular. I wouldn't have been able to get either of these two kills without it last night: - http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29491 - http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29487
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1868
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:22:00 -
[77] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight. I knew deep down in my gut where the navitas was headed, im not sure i like it, it was far more exciting when it was going to be a drone ship.
Don't be daft. As long as it doesn't suck that's infinitely superior.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
159
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Posted - 2012.08.16 16:27:00 -
[78] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.
hhhmmmmm,
I always thought a Destroyer hull would make a better light logistics ship. Firgates don't have enough slots and a far too flimsy with weak sensor strengths and poor tageting range to fill this role. A destroyer hull would fill it better and we need more destroyer huls with roles!
I think you're missing a trick by not giving Gallente a T1 Missile frigate and making the Navitas a drone boat..
The way I imagined the T1 frigate line up accross all races was something like this:
A Kite Missile boat **Bombardment** (Inquisitor / Kestral / Tristan / Breacher) An EWAR boat (Crucifier / Griffin / Maulus / Vigil) An Interceptor (Executioner / Condor / Atron / Slasher) An Explorer or Scout (Magnate / Heron / Imicus / Probe)
Two Combat boats (High DPS and Tank) with racial flare Punisher - Lasers Tormentor - Lasers + Drones Merlin - Hybrids Bantam - Missiles Navitas - Drones Incursus - Hybrids Rifter - Projectiles Burst - Jack of all trades (Projectiles and Missiles with some Drones)
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Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
27
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Posted - 2012.08.16 16:29:00 -
[79] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:CCP Fozzie
What about the Inquisitor? It's getting a new role, to be unveiled along with the last set of frigs.
Inb4 logi frigs nooooooooooooo dont ruin frig fighting with logi frigsssssssssssssss |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
248
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Posted - 2012.08.16 16:30:00 -
[80] - Quote
Zoofelynn wrote:How come "small" balance changes have to come along a big expansion? Why not just continuously balance and put these changes and other upcoming balance changes into small patches that can be applied during a regular maintenance?
I would very much like an answer to this as well. I seem to remember either CCP Ytterbium or someone else saying ship rebalance will be done in small steps using small groups to keep things reasonable. Now it looks like it'll be a 4-month break with no changes, and one huge mega-dump (albeit tested on SiSi) in Winter, including frigates, destroyers and possibly even come cruisers?
What changed between last iteration and now?
Quote:To be fair, it doesn't take months to come up with the changes currently suggested. With this pace it's gonna take until 2020 before all ships have been looked at.
This too. Most of us expected drastic, sweeping changes. But so far, it's just weaking same old paradigms. And while adding things like frigate and destroyer size drone boats is very welcome, it shouldn't take all that long. It's not like new modules or new hulls are being added - it's same old mush with different numbers.
Also nothing major is being changed. I had hoped for a major drone boat overhaul, for example. Abandoning the tired and broken (ever since subcaps got a 5-drone limit) mechanics of split weapon systems (hybrids and drones in roughly 50/50 ratio). But it seems all we're getting is a mini-Vexor, which is really nothing new, it just has to be scaled down.
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
43
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Posted - 2012.08.16 16:31:00 -
[81] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight. I knew deep down in my gut where the navitas was headed, im not sure i like it, it was far more exciting when it was going to be a drone ship. Don't be daft. As long as it doesn't suck that's infinitely superior. -Liang As soon as Fozzie mentioned they had new plans for the navitas I recallled whatt the csm mins said about wanting to do something with small and medium RR, that is when i realized we lost the navitas as a drone ship. I still dont like it, the Tristran could be a logi ship also, it will be getting bonuses that have no application to its t2 version. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
361
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:31:00 -
[82] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:CCP Fozzie Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work. There are about 20 ships with this bonus and many of the T1 ships with it are just not competitive due to it. I've written some of my thoughts about it here. If you want to look at it, seeing the affected ships in a list makes you realize how far reaching this issue is. I also want to mention that I'd really like the Inquisitor to be a Khanid ship (rocket damage bonus, armor resist bonus). I really like the bonus on both the Executioner and Tormentor. The Executioner in particular. I wouldn't have been able to get either of these two kills without it last night: - http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29491- http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29487-Liang
I agree, cap usage of lasers should not go up. What I'm suggesting is this.
More than anything I'm interested to hear some dev comments on this. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Recoil IV
Knights of the Posing Meat
11
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Posted - 2012.08.16 16:34:00 -
[83] - Quote
dont forget about destroyers,and caldari ship/missiles tweaks |
Vakr Onzo
Elite Amarr Navy Academy
2
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Posted - 2012.08.16 16:35:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tristan's hybrid bonus make sense when you use smaller guns than 125mm to defend itself against fast moving targets...like drones and those T1 tackling frigates.
Those who are complaining about losing the "Cyno" Kestrel....you do know the Exploration Frigate revamp will still give you a T1 option for a suicide cyno run :P |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1868
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:40:00 -
[85] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:I agree, cap usage of lasers should not go up. What I'm suggesting is this. Quote:What I would do is just reducing laser cap usage by 50% and remove the -10% laser cap usage bonus, replacing it with a 5% damage per level on hulls that have no damage bonus. The ships that already have a damage bonus are reviewed individually, trying to give them a useful but not overpowered bonus:
(long list of ships and suggested bonuses follows)
More than anything I'm interested to hear some dev comments on this.
The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.
/shrug
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
39
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Posted - 2012.08.16 16:40:00 -
[86] - Quote
Brunaburh wrote:
In addition, you've now set up a good number of Gallente T2 frigates to be suboptimal straight off of the T1 frigates. due to a lack of any missile boats. Gallente have always had a harder time due to mixed platform training for weapons (drones, guns, missiles) and now you take away one of the useful cross-train paths. Seriously, think about it.
To even touch this ship now you have to train a month of missile skills that have no bearing whatsoever to any other gallente frigate.
actually "gallente training" for subcapital t1 is "rather" easy with blaster(hybrids)/ drones and armor tank. imagine training a minmatar character; you need projectiles, missiles, drones, armor & shield tank. i do not see anything wrong when the combat philosophy of a race gets a bit more pronounced. this way you stop making every race the same. just because there is one t1 gallente frig which uses light missiles and maybe rockets, why should you train every missile related skill? i like the philosophy of having the gallente frigs more hybrid and drone focusses and less using "foreign" weapons. this way you see, whats this race is all about and when moving past t1 and start specialising into t2 or broadening into other races you always can start training for the other toys. it may be a contestable opinion, but when specialising for a t2 ship, i find it acceptable to train for a "specialised" weapon type.
the main idea behind the bombers was not making them torpedo spitting missile boats, but have a platform for deploying bombs, which do not have much in common with missiles. it would be rather cool if only the caldari bomber would use torps and the other bombers would use large lasers/projectiles/ blasters.. heavily modified to make them only viable when shooting larger targets. like a penalty on signature radius.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1868
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:40:00 -
[87] - Quote
Vakr Onzo wrote:Tristan's hybrid bonus make sense when you use smaller guns than 125mm to defend itself against fast moving targets...like drones and those T1 tackling frigates.
Those who are complaining about losing the "Cyno" Kestrel....you do know the Exploration Frigate revamp will still give you a T1 option for a suicide cyno run :P
It's about nostalgia and history, not about having an effective cyno frigate.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1868
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:42:00 -
[88] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote: the main idea behind the bombers was not making them torpedo spitting missile boats, but have a platform for deploying bombs, which do not have much in common with missiles. it would be rather cool if only the caldari bomber would use torps and the other bombers would use large lasers/projectiles/ blasters.. heavily modified to make them only viable when shooting larger targets. like a penalty on signature radius.
The funny thing about that is that the current bombers are modified in favor of having BETTER damage application (but not raw DPS) than battleships. And you're suggesting making the turret ones significantly worse? Heh.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
361
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:47:00 -
[89] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.
/shrug
-Liang
Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20
But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do.
An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
511
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:47:00 -
[90] - Quote
So five tristans walked into a minor... And each dropped a sentry. That would be comedy gold to do at least one time. |
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The VC's
Spack Force 5
20
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Posted - 2012.08.16 17:03:00 -
[91] - Quote
* steals Laing's asb Executioner fit. |
Aurum Gallente
The Scope Gallente Federation
41
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Posted - 2012.08.16 17:13:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Aurum Gallente wrote:I'm happy to see tristan like this but 3 med+2 light drones or one sentry in frigate class? It can kill any T1 cruiser or tier-3 BC. If you want to see powerful drone platform just change turret bonus to something useful like drone HP or stasis webifier range or armor resistances. I prefer 0 turrents and long webifier It has 40m3 bay but only 25m3 bandwidth, so 5 light drones or one sentry. I know it. I am Gallente and I don't know what for this tristan needs guns. It needs drone optimal bonus if you against webifier optimal bonus. Change turret's bonus to 2.5% and add drone optimal range 5% per lvl. Light drones have problems with too small optimal range with very high speed so tracking bonus not very useful for light drones. |
PinkKnife
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
192
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Posted - 2012.08.16 17:15:00 -
[93] - Quote
I don't understand the hullabaloo over the Tristan. I flew it exclusively for near 4 months when I first started. It was a crap ship, the split bonuses meant I couldn't really do much dps. You either fit it for cruiser battling, or for drove fighting. Neither one was it particularly good at.
It had 1 drone. What is the point of that?
It is by far more focused and better as a ship than it was. What difference does it make if the Navitas is used as something else.
With the Incursus serving as the close range blaster ship, it makes sense that the other combat frigate would be the other Gallente play style of longer range and drones.
As for not having any entry missile ships. See Amarr, They don't get any missile ships until Assault Frigates, but no one bitched about that. Yes, training up a bomber from Cal/Min is less time, but so what. Training ANY Turret ship for Caldari means the same thing.
Also, you'll likely be getting a missile based destroyer platform, which makes a nice stepping stone as well so, don't count chickens before the've teircided themselves.
I agree on cap use argument.
I also agree on Minmatar having to train too many things, they should not be able to do everything. As it is, they get every single option with no downsides.
Bombers are fine as they are, leave them be. Every race has the same approximate bomber training, some just have it easier than others. Having the Tristan just means you have rockets/MLO trained to 3, not that you have all the support skills unless you fly the Tristan exclusively for 4 months straight, and even then I didn't have all the missile support skills. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
192
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:17:00 -
[94] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror.......
FRIGATE LOGISTICS \o/
I thought that was the big reveal, then I read this, and I think you're dropping us hints :) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1868
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:18:00 -
[95] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.
/shrug
-Liang
Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do.
I don't think those statistics really mean what you think they do. For starters, about half that list is meaningless because it simply represents what fleet doctrines are being used right now. I think that people are lemmings and game design shouldn't revolve around what any particular mouthpiece is telling people to fly.
Of the ships on that list which are potentially differentiable from fleet doctrines, I'd say that there's 6 Projectile ships, 2 Hybrid ships, and 2 Laser ships. Breaking those down a bit further, we see: - BS: Nobody flies them outside of fleets. Whatever. - BC: Hurricane, Tornado, Naga, Oracle (2 Proj, 1 Hybrid, 1 Laser) - Cruiser: Zealot, Cynabal (1 Laser, 1 Projectile) - Destroyer: Thrasher, Saber (2 Projectile, also this is meaningless as the destroyer rebalance has not yet arrived) - Frig: Rifter, Merlin (1 Projectile, 1 Hybrid)
What I'm really seeing is Minmatar dominance via the Hurricane and Saber. And that's your argument that lasers need a massive across the board buff?
-Liang
Ed: I would accept an argument that the Tornado, Naga, and Zealot are fleet doctrines. I don't really keep track close enough to know. It shouldn't materially affect the argument though. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
39
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Posted - 2012.08.16 17:25:00 -
[96] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote: the main idea behind the bombers was not making them torpedo spitting missile boats, but have a platform for deploying bombs, which do not have much in common with missiles. it would be rather cool if only the caldari bomber would use torps and the other bombers would use large lasers/projectiles/ blasters.. heavily modified to make them only viable when shooting larger targets. like a penalty on signature radius.
The funny thing about that is that the current bombers are modified in favor of having BETTER damage application (but not raw DPS) than battleships. And you're suggesting making the turret ones significantly worse? Heh. -Liang
as bombers are quite mobile thy can easily cut down transversal and with unmodified large turret they would roflstomp everything into oblivious. similar to talos and tornado. it was just a fast idea, not to be taken too seriously ^^ |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
362
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:29:00 -
[97] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
What I'm really seeing is Minmatar dominance via the Hurricane and Saber. And that's your argument that lasers need a massive across the board buff?
-Liang
I think we have very different ideas what massive means. Did you not read the link that I posted? Tell me:
A Tormentor with +7.5% tracking and +5% damage per level (and built-in -50% laser cap usage) would be massively more powerful than the same ship with -10% laser cap usage per level and +5% damage per level?
What about an Omen with +7.5% tracking and +5% rof (and built-in -50% laser cap usage)?
What about the drone legion subsystem? Would that be massively overpowered if the its only laser bonus, -10% cap usage per level was replaced with +5% damage per level?
What about the covert legion with the same problem?
What about the Retribution getting a 10% damage boost that replaces the +5% damage per level and -10% cap usage bonus? The ship currently has problems breaking 200 dps, can't fit a web and is the worst AF to engage bigger targets with.
What a about the Absolution? Would a tracking bonus make it overpowered? I very much doubt it. It only has 3 mids, it should have tracking bonus anyways.
What about the Abaddon? Would it be massively overpowered if its cap lasted a few minutes more?
etc... An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
44
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Posted - 2012.08.16 17:36:00 -
[98] - Quote
Ok I gonna bring this up here, how many gallente pilots are tired of drone/hybrid combo ships. They are the only race that doesn't get seperate weapon platform ships. Every drone ship gets a hybrid bonus (myrmidon aside) it would be nice if the drone ships were drone ships and the hybrid ships were hybrid ships. Give the drone ships drone hp bonuses, tracking bonuses, optimum range bonuses, damage bonuses, mwd speed bonuses or logistic/ewar bonuses. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1869
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:38:00 -
[99] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote: I think we have very different ideas what massive means. Did you not read the link that I posted? Tell me:
A Tormentor with +7.5% tracking and +5% damage per level (and built-in -50% laser cap usage) would be massively more powerful than the same ship with -10% laser cap usage per level and +5% damage per level?
Heh, yeah it really would be. I think you should go read the old threads about the Crusader to see why this is true.
Quote: What about the Retribution getting a 10% damage boost that replaces the +5% damage per level and -10% cap usage bonus? The ship currently has problems breaking 200 dps, can't fit a web and is the worst AF to engage bigger targets with.
If you have problems with the Retribution, I literally have no idea what the hell is wrong with you.
Quote: What about the Abaddon? Would it be massively overpowered if its cap lasted a few minutes more?
I'm going to go with yes.
The rest of the stuff that you pointed out is pretty much you pointing at a ship that's horrifically broken for other reasons and attributing it to the cap use bonus.
-Liang
Ed: Really, saying that the Omen is broken because of the cap use bonus instead of it's utterly **** fittings is just mindblowing and destroys your entire argument. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Azual Skoll
The Tuskers
13
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Posted - 2012.08.16 17:42:00 -
[100] - Quote
Assuming for a moment frigate logistics is what we're considering, there are a couple of a pretty big problems to consider.
What exactly does a logistics frigate rep? If it's repping cruisers or larger then there's no real advantage over a logistics cruiser. So I assume they're for repping other frigates.
Even if you take locking out of the equation (for example by assuming these logistics frigs could all bit insta-lock), there's usually a delay between a ship taking damage and the logistics ships stemming the bleeding. Excluding 1v1 encounters though, a frigate taking fire in PVP is usually in one of two situations: it's either evading all or most of the incoming damage, or it's dying - usually very quickly. The window available for a logistics ship to lock that frigate and begin repairing it is very slim indeed, to the point where most ships will be dead before reps land in any real fight (especially with armour reps, which land at the end of their cycle).
In addition to that, the low EHP and resists of your typical t1 frigate (potentially excluding merlins and punishers) means that reps simply aren't that effective on them. High resists are all but essential for remote repair to work, and it's really quite hard to fit a frigate in that way. Additionally, fights involving larger ships are likely to see frigates volleyed straight through their primary shield/armour buffer, meaning no amount of reps can actually keep them afloat. Assault frigs are tough enough for it to work, but inventing a new ship class purely to repair assault frigs seems a little unnecessary.
A possibly alternative which would come in really handy, would be a t1 boosting frigate able to fit a single gang link, in a similar vein to the t1 battlecruisers. Right now using gang links is something that a frigate-only fleet simply can't do, unless it's willing to cut it's mobility significantly (since cruisers warp at half the speed of frigates, or slower if compared to t2 frigates) - in other words, sacrificing the main reason to use a frig fleet in the first place. Being able to receive the benefits of a gang link would allow frigate fleets to become a lot more flexible, and level the playing field between a frigate fleet and a gang of larger ships. Obviously, this would work even better if combined with a change to make warfare links on-grid only, but that's a separate conversation entirely!
Other than that, I love what you're doing with balancing so far (even if it does mean I have to rewrite half of my blog!). I like that you've moved away from giving every race a missile frig and a drone frig, that felt a little too homogeneous and I think this way you're maintaining more racial flavour while still giving new players some genuine choice. Keep it up! Eve Blogger at www.evealtruist.com Formerly Director of Agony Unleashed's PVP-University |
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
364
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:42:00 -
[101] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote: I think we have very different ideas what massive means. Did you not read the link that I posted? Tell me:
A Tormentor with +7.5% tracking and +5% damage per level (and built-in -50% laser cap usage) would be massively more powerful than the same ship with -10% laser cap usage per level and +5% damage per level?
Heh, yeah it really would be. I think you should go read the old threads about the Crusader to see why this is true.
You gotta be kidding me. You're just bullshitting me now.
I think I'm done discussing things with you. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Recoil IV
Knights of the Posing Meat
11
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Posted - 2012.08.16 17:50:00 -
[102] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:This Tristan look nice ; though I thought the navitas should be a drone boat ; which role will the navitas have ? Drone brawler ?
Is the bonus of the Kestrel for all missiles ? Or only for kinetic ones ? All missiles. It's a break from the usual Caldari bonuses but in this case we felt it was appropriate.
there is a god |
Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:19:00 -
[103] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.
/shrug
-Liang
Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do. I don't think those statistics really mean what you think they do. For starters, about half that list is meaningless because it simply represents what fleet doctrines are being used right now. I think that people are lemmings and game design shouldn't revolve around what any particular mouthpiece is telling people to fly. Of the ships on that list which are potentially differentiable from fleet doctrines, I'd say that there's 6 Projectile ships, 2 Hybrid ships, and 2 Laser ships. Breaking those down a bit further, we see: - BS: Nobody flies them outside of fleets. Whatever. - BC: Hurricane, Tornado, Naga, Oracle (2 Proj, 1 Hybrid, 1 Laser) - Cruiser: Zealot, Cynabal (1 Laser, 1 Projectile) - Destroyer: Thrasher, Saber (2 Projectile, also this is meaningless as the destroyer rebalance has not yet arrived) - Frig: Rifter, Merlin (1 Projectile, 1 Hybrid) What I'm really seeing is Minmatar dominance via the Hurricane and Saber. And that's your argument that lasers need a massive across the board buff? -Liang Ed: I would accept an argument that the Tornado, Naga, and Zealot are fleet doctrines. I don't really keep track close enough to know. It shouldn't materially affect the argument though.
Wouldn't it be likely that lasers aren't used in a lot of fleet doctrines now because they are not up to snuff? and need a boost? I think they would be used a lot more in fleets if the ships they are fitted on could be used in fleets and be cap stable. I'm thinking the people who come up with the doctrines that effect those statistics use projectiles, missiles mostly cause of the long term cap stability of those ships in fleet, without having to use convoluted cap chains.
Even if all other laser stats are on par with other turrets at the moment, the fact that you will run out of cap just on gun use and propulsion mod use makes them very poor choices for long fights.
I find it kind of funny when they talk about Amarr needing smaller cargo holds because their ammo is so small, when the real Amarr ammo on a lot of my fits is cap boosters. And then my ships are only viable for 5 mins or so. I think this is worse the bigger the ship gets, but I don't think it invalidates the point that lasers as a whole need a change when they need a 50% bonus on a hull to stay somewhat competitive.
If Amarr would become OP with a sweeping change of say a 50% reduction on all lasers. Then I would be willing to see some small nerfs to the stats of the guns, optimal, tracking, that could be then be affected by real second bonuses on ships. So that balance is maintained. But I would say that should be a 2 or 3 step process. First change the bonus and the cap use. If OP then nerf the stats on the guns. They are still going to be the biggest cap using weapons in game and cap is life. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1873
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:23:00 -
[104] - Quote
Kethry Avenger wrote: Wouldn't it be likely that lasers aren't used in a lot of fleet doctrines now because they are not up to snuff? and need a boost? I think they would be used a lot more in fleets if the ships they are fitted on could be used in fleets and be cap stable. I'm thinking the people who come up with the doctrines that effect those statistics use projectiles, missiles mostly cause of the long term cap stability of those ships in fleet, without having to use convoluted cap chains.
Even if all other laser stats are on par with other turrets at the moment, the fact that you will run out of cap just on gun use and propulsion mod use makes them very poor choices for long fights.
I find it kind of funny when they talk about Amarr needing smaller cargo holds because their ammo is so small, when the real Amarr ammo on a lot of my fits is cap boosters. And then my ships are only viable for 5 mins or so. I think this is worse the bigger the ship gets, but I don't think it invalidates the point that lasers as a whole need a change when they need a 50% bonus on a hull to stay somewhat competitive.
If Amarr would become OP with a sweeping change of say a 50% reduction on all lasers. Then I would be willing to see some small nerfs to the stats of the guns, optimal, tracking, that could be then be affected by real second bonuses on ships. So that balance is maintained. But I would say that should be a 2 or 3 step process. First change the bonus and the cap use. If OP then nerf the stats on the guns. They are still going to be the biggest cap using weapons in game and cap is life.
I dunno, the CSM minutes says that "Drake fleet should not be a viable doctrine". So, no I'd say it's more a problem with heavy missiles being problematic than with lasers being bad. Either way, I feel like we're shitting up a perfectly viable thread about combat frigates with abstract discussion about whether or not a cap use bonus is a good bonus.
Let's take this elsewhere.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:27:00 -
[105] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror.......
http://nooooooooooooooo.com/ |
Recoil IV
Knights of the Posing Meat
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:31:00 -
[106] - Quote
Kethry Avenger wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.
/shrug
-Liang
Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do. I don't think those statistics really mean what you think they do. For starters, about half that list is meaningless because it simply represents what fleet doctrines are being used right now. I think that people are lemmings and game design shouldn't revolve around what any particular mouthpiece is telling people to fly. Of the ships on that list which are potentially differentiable from fleet doctrines, I'd say that there's 6 Projectile ships, 2 Hybrid ships, and 2 Laser ships. Breaking those down a bit further, we see: - BS: Nobody flies them outside of fleets. Whatever. - BC: Hurricane, Tornado, Naga, Oracle (2 Proj, 1 Hybrid, 1 Laser) - Cruiser: Zealot, Cynabal (1 Laser, 1 Projectile) - Destroyer: Thrasher, Saber (2 Projectile, also this is meaningless as the destroyer rebalance has not yet arrived) - Frig: Rifter, Merlin (1 Projectile, 1 Hybrid) What I'm really seeing is Minmatar dominance via the Hurricane and Saber. And that's your argument that lasers need a massive across the board buff? -Liang Ed: I would accept an argument that the Tornado, Naga, and Zealot are fleet doctrines. I don't really keep track close enough to know. It shouldn't materially affect the argument though. Wouldn't it be likely that lasers aren't used in a lot of fleet doctrines now because they are not up to snuff? and need a boost? I think they would be used a lot more in fleets if the ships they are fitted on could be used in fleets and be cap stable. I'm thinking the people who come up with the doctrines that effect those statistics use projectiles, missiles mostly cause of the long term cap stability of those ships in fleet, without having to use convoluted cap chains. Even if all other laser stats are on par with other turrets at the moment, the fact that you will run out of cap just on gun use and propulsion mod use makes them very poor choices for long fights. I find it kind of funny when they talk about Amarr needing smaller cargo holds because their ammo is so small, when the real Amarr ammo on a lot of my fits is cap boosters. And then my ships are only viable for 5 mins or so. I think this is worse the bigger the ship gets, but I don't think it invalidates the point that lasers as a whole need a change when they need a 50% bonus on a hull to stay somewhat competitive. If Amarr would become OP with a sweeping change of say a 50% reduction on all lasers. Then I would be willing to see some small nerfs to the stats of the guns, optimal, tracking, that could be then be affected by real second bonuses on ships. So that balance is maintained. But I would say that should be a 2 or 3 step process. First change the bonus and the cap use. If OP then nerf the stats on the guns. They are still going to be the biggest cap using weapons in game and cap is life.
Cap Recharger II / Capacitor Booster / Capacitor Power relays / Capacitor Control Circuit etc.if you`re amarr and you dont like it,deal with it
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Matthias Duran
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:33:00 -
[107] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: Kestrel: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M (+1), 2 L, 4 launchers Fittings: 45 PWG (+15), 180 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+109) / 350(+37) / 350 (+84) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 165s (-22.5s)/ 2 (+0.667) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (+24) / 3.27(-0.6) / 1163000 / 3.56s (-0.65) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km (+10) / 620 (+155) / 5 (+2) Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric Signature radius: 38 (-9) Cargo capacity: 160 (-145)
Let me make sure I understand this change. You're replacing the 10% kinetic damage bonus with a 10% missile velocity bonus and giving it an extra mid. I'd say that chances are the new Kestrel is inferior to the old one despite the extra mid and fittings. What do you say to a 5% ROF bonus over that 5% Damage bonus?
This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
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Vakr Onzo
Elite Amarr Navy Academy
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:44:00 -
[108] - Quote
Matthias Duran wrote: This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
So a 5% damage bonus to all four damage types is strictly worse than a 10% bonus to a single damage type?
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1875
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:50:00 -
[109] - Quote
Vakr Onzo wrote:Matthias Duran wrote: This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
So a 5% damage bonus to all four damage types is strictly worse than a 10% bonus to a single damage type?
It already had a 5% damage bonus to all damage types. So yes.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Vakr Onzo
Elite Amarr Navy Academy
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:56:00 -
[110] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Vakr Onzo wrote:Matthias Duran wrote: This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
So a 5% damage bonus to all four damage types is strictly worse than a 10% bonus to a single damage type? It already had a 5% damage bonus to all damage types. So yes. -Liang Yes but is losing 5% bonus to kinetic for 10% velocity really that bad?
|
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1876
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:58:00 -
[111] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote: You gotta be kidding me. You're just bullshitting me now.
I think I'm done discussing things with you.
Tip: nobody cares about Crusader balance dicussions from 3 or more years ago when since then blasters, railguns, rockets, artillery and autocannons have been buffed.
The discussions I'm referring to are in reference to a modern Slicer, Retribution, and Crusader. There's nothing that's changed about lasers and damage application in the mean time... so really all this talk about blasters, rails, and rockets is just throwing **** at a wall and hoping something sticks.
You truly do not understand how incredibly powerful tracking bonuses are on frigates. For example, did you know that you shouldn't fit damage mods in most interceptor battles? Why? Because tracking is critical.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1876
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:59:00 -
[112] - Quote
Vakr Onzo wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Vakr Onzo wrote:Matthias Duran wrote: This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
So a 5% damage bonus to all four damage types is strictly worse than a 10% bonus to a single damage type? It already had a 5% damage bonus to all damage types. So yes. -Liang Yes but is losing 5% bonus to kinetic for 10% velocity really that bad?
There's no reason to use this Kestrel over the old Kestrel and certainly no reason to use it over a Condor.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:02:00 -
[113] - Quote
Recoil IV wrote: Cap Recharger II / Capacitor Booster / Capacitor Power relays / Capacitor Control Circuit etc.if you`re amarr and you dont like it,deal with it
And Cap Batteries...lol.
3 of which are mid slots. Amarr have so many of those, and don't need them for prop mods, tackle, ewar, more tracking or eccm..
1 is a rig. Which I'm sure other races have to use a rig for cap stability... the prerequisite ability of being able to fire at all for Amarr.
1 is a low slot, which we do have a lot of, but takes away from our tank or gank, which is all Amarr really have.
I already deal with it, but I can also argue for a buff. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
248
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:05:00 -
[114] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ok I gonna bring this up here, how many gallente pilots are tired of drone/hybrid combo ships. They are the only race that doesn't get seperate weapon platform ships. Every drone ship gets a hybrid bonus (myrmidon aside) it would be nice if the drone ships were drone ships and the hybrid ships were hybrid ships. Give the drone ships drone hp bonuses, tracking bonuses, optimum range bonuses, damage bonuses, mwd speed bonuses or logistic/ewar bonuses.
I'm very much in favour of this. Enough of the split weapon systems. If it be a drone boat, give it drones and drone bonuses. If it's a hybrid boat, give it hybrid bonuses. But none of this wishy-washy hybrid/drone nonsense. Make up your mind and stick to it. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1876
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:05:00 -
[115] - Quote
Kethry Avenger wrote:I already deal with it, but I can also argue for a buff.
Argue for a buff in the correct areas. Lasers are incredibly powerful weapons systems and most of the "problems" people are pointing out with cap use bonuses are in fact with the hulls in question instead of the bonus.
Seriously, you guys are complaining that the Armageddon is underpowered.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:09:00 -
[116] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Vakr Onzo wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Vakr Onzo wrote:Matthias Duran wrote: This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
So a 5% damage bonus to all four damage types is strictly worse than a 10% bonus to a single damage type? It already had a 5% damage bonus to all damage types. So yes. -Liang Yes but is losing 5% bonus to kinetic for 10% velocity really that bad? There's no reason to use this Kestrel over the old Kestrel and certainly no reason to use it over a Condor. -Liang
A buff to tracking helps turrets properly engage other frigates. A buffer to explosive velocity is more what missile frigates need to engage other frigates, rather than missile velocity. Missile velocity helps, but if light missiles are already doing around 4km/s base, a 10% per level bonus really isn't impacting performance in a fight much at all. 5% bonus to missile velocity and explosive velocity would be fairly heavenly. |
Ogogov
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:09:00 -
[117] - Quote
Quote: Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
Thank you for getting rid of the moronic split weapons system on the tristan. I'm interested to see how the drone tracking bonus works in actuality, I have a feeling it'll be less effective but whatever, it looks like the rebalancing initiative is in good hands.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
970
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:16:00 -
[118] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.
/shrug
-Liang
Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do.
Yes, please, use EVEkill as concrete evidence, you know, the site that lists AAA as the number one alliance but fails to take into account the man that killed his alts 100 times in t1 frigates to help keep that number high.
Raw numbers should never be used as facts because they can be interpreted differently by different people.
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Azula Kishtar
Lonely among the Stars
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:18:00 -
[119] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
There's no reason to use this Kestrel over the old Kestrel and certainly no reason to use it over a Condor.
-Liang
The current Kestrel has fitting and cap problems with LMLs, MWD and long point. It has more DPS than the new Kestrel (with kinetic), but i would assume CCP considered the planned damage increase to Light Missiles in general when they made the new Kestrel.
Rocket Kestrel just died with the changes of course.
I would however agree that the Condor has a lot of advantages over the new (or old) Kestrel. It's a real nice little ship, that Condor.....
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
971
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:25:00 -
[120] - Quote
Kethry Avenger wrote:ap stability... the prerequisite ability of being able to fire at all for Amarr.
Haha, who in the world tries to make amarr ships cap stable?
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:31:00 -
[121] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.
OMG A LOGI FRIG!!!! I demand a tech ii version! Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
368
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:35:00 -
[122] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Kethry Avenger wrote:I already deal with it, but I can also argue for a buff. Argue for a buff in the correct areas. Lasers are incredibly powerful weapons systems and most of the "problems" people are pointing out with cap use bonuses are in fact with the hulls in question instead of the bonus. Seriously, you guys are complaining that the Armageddon is underpowered. -Liang Ed: Argue for a Prophecy buff and I'll be all over it helping you push. Omen too. Legion in cases. Etc, etc, etc. But seriously... asking to lower cap use on all lasers and replace the cap use bonus with damage, tracking, optimal and resists is... batshit insane.
Misrepresent things much?
I have mostly been suggesting tracking bonuses because these precisely do not help at all in the big fleet stuff work where Amarr ships are best at. They help most where Amarr ships SUCK, namely dealing with smaller ships which is useful for soloing. If you read the list I prepared, you would notice that I gave tracking bonuses to all ships currently considered "good" precisely for the above reason. No, the Armageddon or Oracle will not become overpowered with a tracking bonus. Fleet doctrine Zealot AHAC won't either because they already track their targets perfectly fine.
Are you seriously arguing that asking for a damage bonus on the Maller is batshit insane? Or the Prophecy? Or the Legion drone subsystem? Or the covert subsystem?
20% more dps on the Crusader and Retribution is not insane. We have rocket ships doing more than these nowadays. Even if you disagree, the actual bonus is something one can reasonably discuss because these ships are on the low end of the dps spectrum.
The only other ship I suggested a damage bonus was the Apocalypse. Why? Because I figured that we should be seeing a lot more of them with all the Drakes and Tengus around if the ship was fine. People prefer rails and artillery for sniping instead of tachyons.
Nowhere have I suggested an optimal bonus. The only armor resist bonus was on the Harbinger, as suggested by CCP Ytterbium in the CSM meetings. In fact I have been very careful to not make any of the good ships noticably better at what they're already good at.
As for whether the laser cap usage bonus is THE problem, I think the Maller & Prophecy & Legion subsystems have demosntrated that very well. The cap usage bonus bonus is not good enough to make people fit lasers on these ships. This is why I'm posting here. I want to know what CCP has planned to do. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:37:00 -
[123] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ok I gonna bring this up here, how many gallente pilots are tired of drone/hybrid combo ships. They are the only race that doesn't get seperate weapon platform ships. Every drone ship gets a hybrid bonus (myrmidon aside) it would be nice if the drone ships were drone ships and the hybrid ships were hybrid ships. Give the drone ships drone hp bonuses, tracking bonuses, optimum range bonuses, damage bonuses, mwd speed bonuses or logistic/ewar bonuses. I'm very much in favour of this. Enough of the split weapon systems. If it be a drone boat, give it drones and drone bonuses. If it's a hybrid boat, give it hybrid bonuses. But none of this wishy-washy hybrid/drone nonsense. Make up your mind and stick to it. I forgot about drone bay bonuses. but yeah we already have a hybrid frig, give us a drone only frig, it can work. |
Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:43:00 -
[124] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Kethry Avenger wrote:I already deal with it, but I can also argue for a buff. Argue for a buff in the correct areas. Lasers are incredibly powerful weapons systems and most of the "problems" people are pointing out with cap use bonuses are in fact with the hulls in question instead of the bonus. Seriously, you guys are complaining that the Armageddon is underpowered. -Liang Ed: Argue for a Prophecy buff and I'll be all over it helping you push. Omen too. Legion in cases. Etc, etc, etc. But seriously... asking to lower cap use on all lasers and replace the cap use bonus with damage, tracking, optimal and resists is... batshit insane.
Armageddon is not underpowered. Its not cap stable but not under powered.
Just fitting Dual Heavy Pulse Lasers II and one heat sink with perfect skills will have the Geddon run out of cap. Lasers in general with all the buffs to Hybrids and Projectiles aren't so good that it should be okay for that to be true.
And for comparison, lets say you do fit a cap booster. Every boost you use gets you less than it does on a Hybrid because the straight cap amount needed is so much more with lasers. Oh and because Amarr have small (expensive) ammo and cargo holds, you have less cap booster charges than other ships.
Other than getting rid of the cap use bonus, what replaces it I am less concerned with as it doesn't have to be something that bonuses straight damage or damage projection. But giving Amarr two useful bonuses on their ships does seem to be fair. Or how they make that possible and balanced. They could fix all the hulls to be viable with laser cap use or just change laser cap use.
And I'm posting in this thread cause they are balancing Amarr ships that still have the cap use bonus and no one from CCP has answered any of the threads about it. (That I know of, please link me something if I'm wrong.) |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
799
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:46:00 -
[125] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.
I smell logistics Frigate.
I'm gonna feel a bit mixed about this. Will wait tentatively...
I'm gonna be excited to get in a Breacher now though. One of my favorite hulls that's always been underplayed. I'm gonna look over your stats carefully and give you some feedback.
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
799
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:51:00 -
[126] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hello again Features & Ideas. Today we're going to be showing you the current designs for the last three revamped Combat Frigates, set for release this winter.
Breacher: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 3 launchers, 0 Turrets (-1) Fittings: 35 PWG (+4), 180 CPU (+45) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+149) / 350(+37) / 300 (+50) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 (+112.5)/ 150s (+9.37s)/ 2 (+0.667) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+16) / 3.16 (-0.62) / 1087000 (-100000) / 3.21s (-0.99) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 (+10) / 10 (+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km (+2.5) / 650 (+75) / 4 (+1) Sensor strength: 8 Ladar Signature radius: 36 (-5) Cargo capacity: 175
Slot layout looks good. Missile boats don't need much in the way of utilities usually because they're so far out.
The Breacher with Drones is OMGWTF. I Approve. :) This will be a sexy ride.
Seems like plenty of fitting space. I guess I really don't have much to say. Maybe a little more cargo space for the Cap Boosters for the Ancillary Shield booster?? :)
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Lavitakus Bromier
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 20:10:00 -
[127] - Quote
First off IM glad the Tristan became the new drone boat that fits it much better. On the other hand the navitas, will it become a middle frig? And if so will it be rehauled cause it personally doesn't look like one. And if there is not going to be a gallante middle frig ima.be disappointed. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 20:22:00 -
[128] - Quote
aside from the logi frig comments I am excited to try out the breacher. Kestrel seems great as well. |
elitatwo
Congregatio
30
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 21:15:00 -
[129] - Quote
Dear CCP Fozzie,
so far so good, changes are on the way, but I like to state a tiny concern to my Kestrel with only 45 powergrid and lets do some basic math - I like math.
Take a little look at this:
Light Missile Launcher II uses 28 CPU and 9 powergrid
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive uses 23 CPU and 15 powergrid
Nothing new here.
Now lets add some numbers:
4x9 powergrid = 36 powergrid (all very basic math here) and lets fit an MWD to actually GET IN RANGE- 36 + 15 powergrid = 51 powergrid and 5 empty slots.
How do you plan to make the Kestrel move in a more desireable distance to make use of the long range bonus, if she cannot fit the means to do so?
Yea, Yea, fitting is our concern and we have to make do somehow but CCP consider the most used modules in pvp which are. MWD for mobility scram or long point web if possible to assist tracking / missile tracking damage control (everybody uses it on any boat anyway)
Or ask yourself, would a tad more powergrid break da game and be the end of the world of New Eden? |
PinkKnife
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
193
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 21:36:00 -
[130] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie,
so far so good, changes are on the way, but I like to state a tiny concern to my Kestrel with only 45 powergrid and lets do some basic math - I like math.
Take a little look at this:
Light Missile Launcher II uses 28 CPU and 9 powergrid
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive uses 23 CPU and 15 powergrid
Nothing new here.
Now lets add some numbers:
4x9 powergrid = 36 powergrid (all very basic math here) and lets fit an MWD to actually GET IN RANGE- 36 + 15 powergrid = 51 powergrid and 5 empty slots.
How do you plan to make the Kestrel move in a more desireable distance to make use of the long range bonus, if she cannot fit the means to do so?
Yea, Yea, fitting is our concern and we have to make do somehow but CCP consider the most used modules in pvp which are. MWD for mobility scram or long point web if possible to assist tracking / missile tracking damage control (everybody uses it on any boat anyway)
Or ask yourself, would a tad more powergrid break da game and be the end of the world of New Eden?
Stop trying to cram T2 missiles on everything and your problem is solved. Not every frigate should be able to fit point/web/mwd/ and the most hardcore launchers of its size.
Learn to prioritize like the other races do. |
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
371
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 21:39:00 -
[131] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie,
so far so good, changes are on the way, but I like to state a tiny concern to my Kestrel with only 45 powergrid and lets do some basic math - I like math.
It seems about right.
45*1.25 = 56.25 PG with Engineering V 4x launcers = 32.4 PG with AWU V 15 PG for MWD Leaves 8.85 PG for the remaing slots. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 21:50:00 -
[132] - Quote
The Tristan could easily have its hybrid tracking bonus replaced with a 5% per level drone damage bonus and still be within the realms of frig damage. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1879
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:00:00 -
[133] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote: I have mostly been suggesting tracking bonuses because these precisely do not help at all in the big fleet stuff work where Amarr ships are best at. They help most where Amarr ships SUCK, namely dealing with smaller ships which is useful for soloing and small gang stuff. If you read the list I prepared, you would notice that I gave tracking bonuses to all ships currently considered "good" precisely for the above reason. No, the Armageddon or Oracle will not become overpowered with a tracking bonus. Fleet doctrine Zealot AHAC won't either because they already track their targets perfectly fine.
Let me ask you a question. Why is it that the Megathron is favored over the Hyperion as a blaster platform despite the fact that the Hyperion is actually better in general? The tracking bonus. Yeah, the tracking bonus doesn't immediately appear obvious when you're dicking around in EFT, but you're throwing tracking around as a filler bonus because you think it basically doesn't matter. But the truth of the matter is that it's one of the most important bonuses in the game.
That's why I encouraged you to go read the conversations about the tracking bonus on the Crusader - because they delve into just how important it is. But no, apparently tracking magically doesn't matter anymore.
Quote:A damage bonus on the Maller, Prophecy, Legion drone & covert subsystems is not asking too much.
Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a damage bonus on Amarr gun ships. I'm saying that the cap use bonus isn't what makes certain Amarr ships suck. Other factors ranging from the lack of a damage bonus at all to utterly gimped fittings to an entire ship class that isn't worth a **** are causing problems. There are a lot of really fantastic ships with the laser cap bonus. Obviously it isn't that big of a handicap.
Quote: 20% more dps on the Crusader and Retribution is not insane. We have rocket ships doing more than these nowadays. Even if you disagree, the actual bonus is something one can reasonably discuss because these ships are on the low end of the dps spectrum and they are not popular.
The big problem with the Crusader is that it has 2 mids, no free highs, and it has to enter web/neut range. My experience with it is that it's great against a frigate but you're just going to cap out and die against any ship bigger than you. But the real problem with the Crusader is that the Executioner is just better now. Fortunately, CCP Fozzie will be rebalancing T2 frigates and he's done a ******* marvelous job with the T1s.
But moving on to the Retribution: it's damn near better than the Slicer and that's one of the best frigates in the game. I literally have no idea how to respond to you if you think that it needs another 20% DPS. 20% more DPS on a Retribution is... ******* incredible TBH.
Quote: Nowhere have I suggested an optimal bonus. The only armor resist bonus was on the Harbinger, as suggested by CCP Ytterbium in the CSM meetings. In fact I have been very careful to not make any of the good ships noticably better at what they're already good at.
Tracking bonuses............
Quote: As for whether the laser cap usage bonus is THE problem, I think the Maller & Prophecy & Legion subsystems have demosntrated that very well. The cap usage bonus bonus is not good enough to make people fit lasers on these ships. So I think it's clear that there is a problem and that's why I'm posting here. I want to know what CCP has planned to do.
The Armageddon and Oracle prove your Maller and Prophecy wrong.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:05:00 -
[134] - Quote
No missile ship is a little disappointing but I do like the idea of new drone frigate (I do think the Tristan model looks really cool with rocket launchers though, shame), the bonuses look good but I am a little concerned over the fitting stats, give how much it has changed roles moving into a drone boat is potentially much more CPU intensive.
Given its current proposed CPU level you can pretty much right off many drone upgrades.
I tried to spec out how I might fit it and came up with this.
[Tristan, New] Small Armor Repairer II Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier I
1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Assuming my maths is correct Drone damage mod cannot be T2 due to CPU and Ions cannot be Neutrons due to CPU and Powergrid.
Yes you could use fitting mods but meta tackle and T2 damage mod seems a pretty basic request and this is before we try and create a kiting long point fit with rails and midslot drone upgrades. Drone rigs are also going to be tricky to fit and I really would have liked to make use of them on a ship like this.
114dps from drones
Ions give around with 72dps Navy Antimatter 57dps with Null.
I looked again and 75mm rails would free up cpu and given the tracking bonus is perhaps the intension.
75mm Rails add 46dps with Navy Antimatter and you can T2 the damage mod for 118drone dps
Even 3-4 more CPU would make a difference and allow a drone rig maybe.
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1879
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:05:00 -
[135] - Quote
Kethry Avenger wrote: Armageddon is not underpowered. Its not cap stable but not under powered.
Just fitting Dual Heavy Pulse Lasers II and one heat sink with perfect skills will have the Geddon run out of cap. Lasers in general with all the buffs to Hybrids and Projectiles aren't so good that it should be okay for that to be true.
And for comparison, lets say you do fit a cap booster. Every boost you use gets you less than it does on a Hybrid because the straight cap amount needed is so much more with lasers. Oh and because Amarr have small (expensive) ammo and cargo holds, you have less cap booster charges than other ships.
This is true for all battleships that require cap to fire their guns.
Quote: Other than getting rid of the cap use bonus, what replaces it I am less concerned with as it doesn't have to be something that bonuses straight damage or damage projection. But giving Amarr two useful bonuses on their ships does seem to be fair. Or how they make that possible and balanced. They could fix all the hulls to be viable with laser cap use or just change laser cap use.
And I'm posting in this thread cause they are balancing Amarr ships that still have the cap use bonus and no one from CCP has answered any of the threads about it. (That I know of, please link me something if I'm wrong.)
I do not believe that lasers on good ships are gimped next to projectiles or hybrids. There exist poor ships which will be addressed in tierification. Either way, the cap use bonus is not the culprit here and it's absolutely trivial to create ships with the cap use bonus that are ******* awesome.
Furthermore, you bring up the new Amarr ships that are getting balanced as if they're bad because they have a laser cap use bonus. Seriously? Have you flown them? They are ******* awesome.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
517
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:06:00 -
[136] - Quote
Lavitakus Bromier wrote:First off IM glad the Tristan became the new drone boat that fits it much better. On the other hand the navitas, will it become a middle frig? And if so will it be rehauled cause it personally doesn't look like one. And if there is not going to be a gallante middle frig ima.be disappointed.
no its going to be a logi frig... and there is going to be a tech II one too! (soonGäó)
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
239
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:06:00 -
[137] - Quote
Pretty much everything liang said is spot on. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:28:00 -
[138] - Quote
Will the model for the Ishkur eventaully change, now there is no T2 Tristan Model?
CCP Fozzie Thanks for the constant updates, itGÇÖs really refreshing to have this amount of Dev involvement in the balancing threads. Please can you nudge Mr Ytterbium regarding his destroyer thread.
|
serras bang
Lucien Coven
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:39:00 -
[139] - Quote
like changes on the kestral but you do know the kestral will now fire rmissles in excess of 60k now ? perhaps even hitting 70k ? and still be capable of a top speed of over 2.4k ms |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:51:00 -
[140] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie,
so far so good, changes are on the way, but I like to state a tiny concern to my Kestrel with only 45 powergrid and lets do some basic math - I like math.
Take a little look at this:
Light Missile Launcher II uses 28 CPU and 9 powergrid
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive uses 23 CPU and 15 powergrid
Nothing new here.
Now lets add some numbers:
4x9 powergrid = 36 powergrid (all very basic math here) and lets fit an MWD to actually GET IN RANGE- 36 + 15 powergrid = 51 powergrid and 5 empty slots.
How do you plan to make the Kestrel move in a more desireable distance to make use of the long range bonus, if she cannot fit the means to do so?
Yea, Yea, fitting is our concern and we have to make do somehow but CCP consider the most used modules in pvp which are. MWD for mobility scram or long point web if possible to assist tracking / missile tracking damage control (everybody uses it on any boat anyway)
Or ask yourself, would a tad more powergrid break da game and be the end of the world of New Eden?
tbh you point is invalid ive setup a kestral with an mwd and its been stable and now it has more pwg i dont see prob here plus this now has extra base fireing distance and lock range even with old stats i had a kestral with 2.3k ms and over a 50k lock and fire range |
|
Jett0
Surface Warfare Tribal Band
233
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 00:20:00 -
[141] - Quote
Not elite enough to comment on specific stats, but thanks in advance for making frigates interesting again.
While you're tiericiding everything, please keep this in mind: If the ships are too focused in a specific role, you're not really adding choices. You're just moving those choices from how people fit their Rifters to what hull they fly to do a specific thing. When all's said and done, during an encounter I want to say "that ship is good at X, Y, and a little of Z, but I'm not sure what decision the pilot actually made" rather than "oh, he's flying ship X, which means I always counter with Y." Occasionally plays sober |
Lili Lu
342
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 00:21:00 -
[142] - Quote
serras bang wrote:like changes on the kestral but you do know the kestral will now fire rmissles in excess of 60k now ? perhaps even hitting 70k ? and still be capable of a top speed of over 2.4k ms Precisely. This is what I'm noticing with the frig rebalancing that is rather bad. Caldari are being given extreme weapon range. Range that no other frigs and destroyers can even get close to. What is it with 10% range bonuses with Caldari ships. How about 5% or 7.5%. Other races live with those sized bonuses. Also, give some range bonuses to other races. Missile range skills are both 10% per level. Then you give one or two 10% range bonuses with the ships. Then this gets applied to light missiles and rails, the two longest range small weapons systems. It's frickin crazy
At the same time the new Caldari small ships are able to make use of the new asbs with resist bonuses and a free mid for a td and thus they can end up brawling better than other frigs specifically designed for brawling and in no way able to kite or snipe. Examples of this being new Cormorants, Condors, Merlins, and the Hookbill.
It's one thing to have racial preferences in combat styles. It's another thing to make only one race capable of a whole style of combat and the other races not able to engage in that style. Unfortunately it appears the latest changes are making the game more heavily tilted toward the latter. Now to some this might not be a bad thing (to me it is) but it's even worse if you also allow that same one race alone to avoid the combat role straightjacket and not the other races.
As to the specifics of the latest changes. I've already mentioned my puzzlement with the Kestral extreme range.
Why is the tristan shorted a slot? You do not give a drone damage bonus. So what is the rationale? If you look at the drone boats at larger sizes the Myrm and Domi (and scorp a similar design feature), they actually get a compensatory non-high slot for losing a couple highs. You limit the tristan to two gun slots and a utility. And then you do not give it the customary compensatory non-high slot. Also, what's with the sig radius changes? -9m for the kestral yet you leave the tristan at 41? This seems extreme. Is Caldari now going to have no downside for their shield tanks? Then fitting tristan 35pg and 130cpu, kestral 45pwg 180cpu WTF And if a kestral needs 45pwg why does a breacher only need 35pwg? Is one launcher really worth 10pg and does one launcher really equal 2 light drones? Lastly speed, the tristan is the slowest? Why are you stepping it into the former Caldari position in this regard.
You appear to be exagerating the racial differences in ships while at the same time granting only one of those races beneficial exemptions from its former relative shortcomings. I really can't believe what I'm seeing. It makes no sense. If this carries on to the larger ships you might as well just delete Gallente and Amarr and armor tanking in general. The eve-kill top twenty has been dominated by shield ships for a while, months, years, and it keeps getting more extreme every month. If Caldari is going to become faster than Gallente, remain more tanky, retain and even increase engagement range and kiting abilities, and still have the best ewar, do us all a favor and just delete Gallente from the database. The only gallente ship in the top twenty is the Lachesis and that is there for it's long tackle role and oh btw it shield tanks and uses missiles |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 01:32:00 -
[143] - Quote
Any way we can get that drone HP changed to Drone Speed, and like... really fast speed. That way the Tristan could become a pretty gnarly anti-frig, especially anti-ceptor (t1, atron, and t2, Ares, versions) We have a blog, it is terrible. How to fix Bounty Hunting |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
517
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 01:35:00 -
[144] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:Any way we can get that drone HP changed to Drone Speed, and like... really fast speed. That way the Tristan could become a pretty gnarly anti-frig, especially anti-ceptor (t1, atron, and t2, Ares, versions)
you want faster drones fit a mod or rig...
but you cant do that for HP... and when it comes to drones more HP means alot! Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 01:42:00 -
[145] - Quote
I'm kinda happy with the changes to the tristan. I think CCP is right: aside from the bomber, the gallente have no "in house" missile options. I'm not sure taking away the two missile turrets were an ideal option, but I more than welcome the added drones.
BTW, is the navi going to be a kiter/sniper now? What do you get when you cross an owl and a bungee cord? |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
216
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 01:45:00 -
[146] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:What is it with 10% range bonuses with Caldari ships. How about 5% or 7.5%. Other races live with those sized bonuses.
The Apocalypse has a +7.5% optimal bonus per level, so a +37.5% bonus at max skills. The Heretic only has a +5% bonus -- but that's with rockets. Purifiers don't count. Every other Amarr hull with a range bonus tops out at +50%: Coercer, Slicer, Retribution, Zealot.
So Amarr and Caldari are better at damage projection than Minmatar and Gallente. That's not new - that's built into the weapon systems they use, before any hull bonuses. It's also not new that Amarr and Caldari have resist bonuses and heavier tanks whereas Minmatar/Gallente, if they have tanking bonuses, have them to active tanking.
It's weird how people keep reacting to tiericide's reinforcement of patterns that already exist. Woah, an Amarr boat with a huge drone bay? What a crazy idea!
Anyway, Inquisitor's not getting Kestrel-like bonuses? ... well, I wanted to skill up Caldari for Sansha ships anyway. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
517
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 01:45:00 -
[147] - Quote
Linna Excel wrote: BTW, is the navi going to be a kiter/sniper now?
nope... ccp muppet alluded that its going to be a logi line frig...
they are running it by the csm first then letting us know for sure!
TBH i am supper excited about it!!!
also fingers crossed at a tech II version aswell!
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
517
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 01:48:00 -
[148] - Quote
oh because CCP Muppet is my new fav dev (tallest wont talk to us no more :( ....)
here is a list of his best jokes! Fozzie: OK, so a guy asks me 'Did you take a bath today?' and I said Why is there one missing? Wocka Wocka Wocka!
Skeeter: Wasn't that great? I love march songs! Fozzie: Personally, I like April songs. Get it, March, April...Wocka Wocka Wocka!
Fozzie: What do you get when you put chocolate pudding in your mother's shoes? Give up? You get a spanking! Wocka Wocka Wocka!
Skeeter: The first event, the 100 meter tree swing! Fozzie: They're gonna swing a tree? Gee, those monkeys must be strong!
Fozzie: Why do movie stars have lots of fans? Give up? Because their HOT!
Fozzie: There was this sailor that was SO fat Sailor: How fat was he? Fozzie: Uh ... He was so fat that everybody liked him, and there was nothing funny about him at all.
Fozzie: What did the big dragon say to the mouse? Give up. Nothing! Dragons can't talk!
Rowlf: Why don't you wear shoes Fozzie? Fozzie: Why should I? I'd still have bear feet. Wocka Wocka Wocka!
Fozzie: Did I tell you the one about the man with the lightbulb in his nose? He was lightheaded! Get it? Wocka Wocka Wocka!
Fozzie: Why are fish so smart? Give up? 'Cause they swim in schools.
Piggy: Scooter, if you had ten hot dogs and Skeeter took three of them what would you have? Fozzie: He'd have a tummy ache! Wocka Wocka Wocka!
Fozzie: Why did the man put a sweater on his hot dog? Because it was a chili dog. Wocka Wocka Wocka! Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
106
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 01:50:00 -
[149] - Quote
when i look at the graphical design of the tristan, i see something who looks to be quick, and with a front shield. too bad this can't happen on his stats.
also gallente needs missiles ships, if they don't have any, noobs won't be able to try missiles at all. |
Lili Lu
342
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 01:56:00 -
[150] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:Any way we can get that drone HP changed to Drone Speed, and like... really fast speed. That way the Tristan could become a pretty gnarly anti-frig, especially anti-ceptor (t1, atron, and t2, Ares, versions) unfortunately a drone speed bonus is not as great as you might think due to drone mechanics of mwd, orbit, and tracking |
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Lili Lu
342
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:00:00 -
[151] - Quote
Tanaka Aiko wrote:when i look at the graphical design of the tristan, i see something who looks to be quick, and with a front shield. too bad this can't happen on his stats.
also gallente needs missiles ships, if they don't have any, noobs won't be able to try missiles at all. Nbd really. The only thing Gallente would need missiles for is bombers. Caldari don't get much dronage. Yet both races have to train those weapon support skills for each.
For Gallente the more pressing missile concern is the atrocius agility on the Nemesis. That should not be a difficult fix for CCP to do. Either reduce it's mass or make the agility multiplier better. It does not need to wait until years from now they finally get to "rebalancing" tech II frigates. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:12:00 -
[152] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:Any way we can get that drone HP changed to Drone Speed, and like... really fast speed. That way the Tristan could become a pretty gnarly anti-frig, especially anti-ceptor (t1, atron, and t2, Ares, versions) unfortunately a drone speed bonus is not as great as you might think due to drone mechanics of mwd, orbit, and tracking They tried a speed bonus on the Maulus, it didnt end well. i like the drone buff, but i would still like to see it lass as a drone hybrid ship and more of a drone ship. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
517
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:17:00 -
[153] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Lili Lu wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:Any way we can get that drone HP changed to Drone Speed, and like... really fast speed. That way the Tristan could become a pretty gnarly anti-frig, especially anti-ceptor (t1, atron, and t2, Ares, versions) unfortunately a drone speed bonus is not as great as you might think due to drone mechanics of mwd, orbit, and tracking They tried a speed bonus on the Maulus, it didnt end well. i like the drone buff, but i would still like to see it lass as a drone hybrid ship and more of a drone ship.
best drone buff ever would be the ability to use nano repair paste on drones when they are in your bay... instead of repairing heat damage they would repair the drone back up to 100% hp takes like 15-30 seconds per to to repair...
you could even have ship bonus that could reduce the time and amount of paste needed to repair a drone... now thats a skill bonus i would like to see.
i am still a sad sad man at the fact you cant recall drones and have insta repaired shields on them
TBH that one move killed attack drones from pvp...
now drones are good for pve or ecm drones for pvp...
i still got a few domi's setup at nuet/sentries and that works nice but not being able to rep your drones and at the same time take away aggro is a real limitation on their respective use. Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:23:00 -
[154] - Quote
Do you see where I am coming from, Gallente is the only race that has to train two weapon systems to get the most use out of their ship. Could you imagine how much complaining there would be if minmatar had projectile and missile bonuses? |
Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 03:05:00 -
[155] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Kethry Avenger wrote: Armageddon is not underpowered. Its not cap stable but not under powered.
Just fitting Dual Heavy Pulse Lasers II and one heat sink with perfect skills will have the Geddon run out of cap. Lasers in general with all the buffs to Hybrids and Projectiles aren't so good that it should be okay for that to be true.
And for comparison, lets say you do fit a cap booster. Every boost you use gets you less than it does on a Hybrid because the straight cap amount needed is so much more with lasers. Oh and because Amarr have small (expensive) ammo and cargo holds, you have less cap booster charges than other ships.
This is true for all battleships that require cap to fire their guns.
Actually some quick pyfa-ing says this is incorrect. It is true for all Amarr ships. All Gallente BS can use 425's on their own and stay cap stable. Rokh is also cap stable with just guns. Apoc can use dual beams but past that it is not stable. But who uses dual beams on an Apoc. And when they changed the bonus on the Apoc to more optimal they also buffed the hull's cap.
Liang Nuren wrote:Kethry Avenger wrote: Other than getting rid of the cap use bonus, what replaces it I am less concerned with as it doesn't have to be something that bonuses straight damage or damage projection. But giving Amarr two useful bonuses on their ships does seem to be fair. Or how they make that possible and balanced. They could fix all the hulls to be viable with laser cap use or just change laser cap use.
And I'm posting in this thread cause they are balancing Amarr ships that still have the cap use bonus and no one from CCP has answered any of the threads about it. (That I know of, please link me something if I'm wrong.)
I do not believe that lasers on good ships are gimped next to projectiles or hybrids. There exist poor ships which will be addressed in tierification. Either way, the cap use bonus is not the culprit here and it's absolutely trivial to create ships with the cap use bonus that are ******* awesome. Furthermore, you bring up the new Amarr ships that are getting balanced as if they're bad because they have a laser cap use bonus. Seriously? Have you flown them? They are ******* awesome. -Liang
The punisher yes. The others not so much. PIE is taking a break from FW and not much use for frigates outside lowsec.
Below is some quick EFTing.. Perfect skills, T2 guns.
However the Executioner is the only attack frigate that is not cap stable with guns, mwd, and point. The other 3 are fine. Caldari and Minmatar obviously better off with there 0 cap weapons.
The Tormentor "Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel " is not cap stable with a point, mwd and guns... I'm fairly certain the other 3 in this group will be. Medium range to me means outside, web scram range, which means MWD.
The Punisher is cap stable with a Nos or a Afterburner which is a perfectly viable setups, but they also gave it 2 bonuses and buffed its cap.
So yes all the frigates they have buffed are better in general. They all have better defined roles. But Amarr are still having ships without a defining second bonus and are more cap unstable than the other races.
And aren't Amarr supposed to be the best at Cap? or did this change? |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
156
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 03:17:00 -
[156] - Quote
Well, as a member of fac war I think a logi frigate is going to be pretty cool for minor plexes. It will be nice to see the Navitas hull finally. I don't think Ive ever seen one in the wild.
Tristan as a drone boat is a nice idea. I would really argue that it needs 50m3 drone bay for two full flights of lights. I lose drones all of the time in cruisers and BCs. Frigates being far faster, drones will get left behind far more often. If you are going to give it a 'loseable' weapon system, please at least give it one full reload.
And I just have to say - thank you guys so much for the re-balancing. Frigates are sexy now. I am in love with the Atron. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
quigibow
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 03:26:00 -
[157] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:best drone buff ever would be the ability to use nano repair paste on drones when they are in your bay... instead of repairing heat damage they would repair the drone back up to 100% hp takes like 15-30 seconds per to to repair... you could even have ship bonus that could reduce the time and amount of paste needed to repair a drone... now thats a skill bonus i would like to see. i am still a sad sad man at the fact you cant recall drones and have insta repaired shields on them TBH that one move killed attack drones from pvp... now drones are good for pve or ecm drones for pvp... i still got a few domi's setup at nuet/sentries and that works nice but not being able to rep your drones and at the same time take away aggro is a real limitation on their respective use.
this.
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Sard Caid
Gunpoint Diplomacy
46
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 03:29:00 -
[158] - Quote
I think they're fantastic ways to interpret these ships and look very entertaining to fly! I'm looking forward to these on sisi for some testing.
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Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
216
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 03:46:00 -
[159] - Quote
Kethry Avenger wrote:However the Executioner is the only attack frigate that is not cap stable with guns, mwd, and point. The other 3 are fine. Caldari and Minmatar obviously better off with there 0 cap weapons.
The Tormentor "Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel " is not cap stable with a point, mwd and guns...
An Executioner with max skills is cap stable with pulse lasers, MWD, and warp disruptor. With beams it's unstable, yeah, but you're not going to be using Aurora unless you're engaging a brick; it's stable with Microwave crystals, and it has 42 minutes of cap with Radio crystals. At less than max skills - even, with pretty good cap skills and multiple 3% implants that help its cap - it's not cap stable with either pulse+Scorch or beams, but it's still not bad on cap.
Yeah, a warp disruptor murders a Tormentor's cap, but apart from the drones a Tormentor isn't any more "medium range" than any Amarr frig without a range bonus. Just "medium range combat vessel" as "laser frigate". |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 03:47:00 -
[160] - Quote
What if the Tristan were to be some thing like this. (* by the changes) Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 2 H (-2*), 4 M (+1*), 4 L (+1*), 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 50 (+45*) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1888
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 04:41:00 -
[161] - Quote
Kethry Avenger wrote: Actually some quick pyfa-ing says this is incorrect. It is true for all Amarr ships. All Gallente BS can use 425's on their own and stay cap stable. Rokh is also cap stable with just guns. Apoc can use dual beams but past that it is not stable. But who uses dual beams on an Apoc. And when they changed the bonus on the Apoc to more optimal they also buffed the hull's cap.
And that is what we call shifting goalposts. You made an assertion about the Geddon capping out (Caps out with 1 HS) and then tested the other battleships with no damage mods. Love it! Here's something a bit more balanced: Geddon caps out with 1 MFS Rokh caps out with 1 MFS Hype caps out with 1 MFS Mega caps out with 3 MFS
Quote: The punisher yes. The others not so much. PIE is taking a break from FW and not much use for frigates outside lowsec.
Below is some quick EFTing.. Perfect skills, T2 guns.
However the Executioner is the only attack frigate that is not cap stable with guns, mwd, and point. The other 3 are fine. Caldari and Minmatar obviously better off with there 0 cap weapons.
The Tormentor "Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel " is not cap stable with a point, mwd and guns... I'm fairly certain the other 3 in this group will be. Medium range to me means outside, web scram range, which means MWD.
The Punisher is cap stable with a Nos or a Afterburner which is a perfectly viable setups, but they also gave it 2 bonuses and buffed its cap.
So yes all the frigates they have buffed are better in general. They all have better defined roles. But Amarr are still having ships without a defining second bonus and are more cap unstable than the other races.
Comments: - If the Punisher is viable with an AB setup, why wouldn't the Tormentor be? It actually works better than the MWD version because it doesn't have the optimal bonus to make Med Pulse work at long point range. See below. - The Executioner is cap stable with both Pulse and Beam fits. The lack of an optimal bonus places the same limitation from the Tormentor on the Pulse Executioner. See below. - Ultimately, the problem here is that you're EFTING instead of PVPING. The new ships are ******* amazing.
I face tanked a Hawk and then a Thrasher. Literally face tanked. No implants, links, etc. Also, cap stable. [Executioner, DLP-ASB] Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
1MN Afterburner II Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50 J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small 'Knave' Energy Drain
Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster I Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster I Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
I solo killed a pair of Incursus with this, and then a Brutix. I did call in help on the Brutix as I passed peak shield recharge. Then I solo killed a Claw with it.
[Executioner, Beam Executioner] Heat Sink II F-aQ Phase Code Tracking Subroutines Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S [empty high slot]
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Ancillary Current Router I
This works best with an AB because you just can't squeeze quite enough range out of Medium Pulse. Cap stable, but lacks a high slot for a nos which hurts it compared to the Executioner. I also prefer the Executioner for the Beam setup because raw speed and agility is so important. :)
[Tormentor, Kiting] Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Hornet EC-300 x2
Quote:And aren't Amarr supposed to be the best at Cap? or did this change?
No, Amarr have always been the most cap intensive race. I'm not really sure what would make you think they wouldn't be?
-Liang
Ed: Formatting Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
34
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Posted - 2012.08.17 04:42:00 -
[162] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Kethry Avenger wrote:However the Executioner is the only attack frigate that is not cap stable with guns, mwd, and point. The other 3 are fine. Caldari and Minmatar obviously better off with there 0 cap weapons.
The Tormentor "Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel " is not cap stable with a point, mwd and guns... An Executioner with max skills is cap stable with pulse lasers, MWD, and warp disruptor. With beams it's unstable, yeah, but you're not going to be using Aurora unless you're engaging a brick; it's stable with Microwave crystals, and it has 42 minutes of cap with Radio crystals. At less than max skills - even, with pretty good cap skills and multiple 3% implants that help its cap - it's not cap stable with either pulse+Scorch or beams, but it's still not bad on cap. Yeah, a warp disruptor murders a Tormentor's cap, but apart from the drones a Tormentor isn't any more "medium range" than any Amarr frig without a range bonus. Just "medium range combat vessel" as "laser frigate".
The medium range quote was quoting CCP Yitterbium. This is their stated design goal.
The Atron seems to fit 150's, point and mwd and stay cap stable. Since this is the only other turret cap using Attack frigate, I have to compare the Executioner to that. The Condor and Slasher have no problem with there 0 cap weapons |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1888
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 04:43:00 -
[163] - Quote
Hrett wrote:I don't think Ive ever seen one in the wild.
The start of one of my PVP videos is me "blobbing" a Rifter. But the clever observer will notice we're all in mining frigates. :)
Quote:And I just have to say - thank you guys so much for the re-balancing. Frigates are sexy now. I am in love with the Atron.
Hell yes - the Atron is so awesome. It's almost as awesome as the Executioner!
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
34
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Posted - 2012.08.17 04:46:00 -
[164] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, Amarr have always been the most cap intensive race. I'm not really sure what would make you think they wouldn't be?
-Liang
With the most cap to support their hunger.
And before the projectiles and hybrids were buffed. They had an inherent advantage, now they are better in some ways, worse others. And I am arguing unbalanced on their cap use. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1889
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 04:52:00 -
[165] - Quote
Kethry Avenger wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
No, Amarr have always been the most cap intensive race. I'm not really sure what would make you think they wouldn't be?
-Liang
With the most cap to support their hunger. And before the projectiles and hybrids were buffed. They had an inherent advantage, now they are better in some ways, worse others. And I am arguing unbalanced on their cap use.
Ok, so let's take a look at that (max skills, AB fit or not fit at all): Punisher: 531 cap Tormentor: 500 cap Incursus: 463 cap Executioner: 450 cap Merlin: 438 cap Atron: 413 cap Condor: 375 cap Rifter: 313 cap Slasher: 300 cap
So.... yeah. Looks fine?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
34
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Posted - 2012.08.17 05:05:00 -
[166] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Kethry Avenger wrote: Actually some quick pyfa-ing says this is incorrect. It is true for all Amarr ships. All Gallente BS can use 425's on their own and stay cap stable. Rokh is also cap stable with just guns. Apoc can use dual beams but past that it is not stable. But who uses dual beams on an Apoc. And when they changed the bonus on the Apoc to more optimal they also buffed the hull's cap.
And that is what we call shifting goalposts. You made an assertion about the Geddon capping out (Caps out with 1 HS) and then tested the other battleships with no damage mods. Love it! Here's something a bit more balanced: Geddon caps out with 1 MFS Rokh caps out with 1 MFS Hype caps out with 1 MFS Mega caps out with 3 MFS
Yes as in the Abaddon, and Apoc(with certain guns)(already been buffed on cap some) aren't cap stable even before using a HS. Which makes them worse...
Oh and the Domi is cap stable with 3 MFS, 425's antimatter
Abaddon is cap unstable even with just the smallest large guns, multifreq Apoc is cap unstable with Mega beams or Tachyons, multifreq Geddon is cap unstable with smallest large pulse, dual heavy pulse and one HS, or any other large gun and no HS, multifreq
Why you put a MFS on a Geddon I don't know. Probably cause its as late for you as it is for me.
All your non-Amarr examples are using the most cap intense Hybrid 425, with antimatter. And they are all cap stable without damage mods.
No Amarr ship could fit Tachyons and be cap stable. Only Apoc can fit Megapulse and be cap stable.
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Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 05:11:00 -
[167] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Kethry Avenger wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
No, Amarr have always been the most cap intensive race. I'm not really sure what would make you think they wouldn't be?
-Liang
With the most cap to support their hunger. And before the projectiles and hybrids were buffed. They had an inherent advantage, now they are better in some ways, worse others. And I am arguing unbalanced on their cap use. Ok, so let's take a look at that (max skills, AB fit or not fit at all): Punisher: 531 cap Tormentor: 500 cap Incursus: 463 cap Executioner: 450 cap Merlin: 438 cap Atron: 413 cap Condor: 375 cap Rifter: 313 cap Slasher: 300 cap So.... yeah. Looks fine? -Liang
And if they adjust the cap recharge time to make them comparably cap stable to other ships in there role/class with similar fittings then they would be balanced. But the cap per sec is almost identical to other ships of the same role/class, because the cap recharge time is slower. Which leaves them, I argue, cap unbalanced compared to other ships, and why I keep harping on about either the lasers or all the Amarr hulls needing a fundamental buff to cap stability. With the added bonus of being able to give Amarr ships a second bonus, which doesn't have to be more damage, or more tank, it could be lots of things but it should be there.
Add by the way I am impressed at how fast you can pull up stats. (not joking seriously impressed.) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1889
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 05:19:00 -
[168] - Quote
Kethry Avenger wrote: And if they adjust the cap recharge time to make them comparably cap stable to other ships in there role/class with similar fittings then they would be balanced. But the cap per sec is almost identical to other ships of the same role/class, because the cap recharge time is slower. Which leaves them, I argue, cap unbalanced compared to other ships, and why I keep harping on about either the lasers or all the Amarr hulls needing a fundamental buff to cap stability. With the added bonus of being able to give Amarr ships a second bonus, which doesn't have to be more damage, or more tank, it could be lots of things but it should be there.
I dunno, I already showed realistic battle tested cap stable versions of the ships you claim can't do it. I just don't see the problem.
Quote:Add by the way I am impressed at how fast you can pull up stats. (not joking seriously impressed.)
Thanks! :)
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Kelsar Hemah
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 07:53:00 -
[169] - Quote
Mostly looked at the tristan.
Its missing 1 slot properly from low so it has 10 like the rest off the combat frigs. I really dont think you can argue that it should have less then every other combat frig. If it get to good you could lower the bandwidth to 20 instead of 25 to decease its damage output.
It could also really need a few more powergrid, and in general it got some off the lowest cpu and powergrid numbers among the frigs. In general i dislike that your trying to dictate that these 3 frigs have to be use as range by gimping the fitting on them for adding tank while fitting close range guns.
It is also very slow, and properly will be one off the slowest frigs in the game, which is weird when Gallente is supose to be the second fastest race.
The utility slot is fairly useless, if kiting you cant really use it as you wouldnt cap out anything before they will kill you. and in close the takes up the powergrid you need to use for tank to live long enough for it to have any effect. Unless you downgrade your guns to electrons in which case I would much rather be without. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 08:03:00 -
[170] - Quote
I am tired of seeing gallente with drone hybrid gun combo ships, let gallente have a line of dedicated drone ships, like caldari has a line of missile ships and a line of hybrid ships, minmatar has projectile lines and missile lines, amarr has laser ships, some missile ships, and some drone ships, but only gallente has to train both drone AND hybrid to use there drone weapon line. |
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 09:00:00 -
[171] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:I am tired of seeing gallente with drone hybrid gun combo ships, let gallente have a line of dedicated drone ships, like caldari has a line of missile ships and a line of hybrid ships, minmatar has projectile lines and missile lines, amarr has laser ships, some missile ships, and some drone ships, but only gallente has to train both drone AND hybrid to use there drone weapon line.
I am not convinced by an all drone boat approach (except for mission boats). With drones being destructible you could easily find yourself with no dps and no means of reloading drones. If anything due to a lack of a bonus and fitting constraints the tristans turret dps is possibly too low. With something like a Vexor my drones may be destroyed but I have significant turret dps to finish an opponent with (plus they have spent time shooting drones not me)
Without an overhaul of drone mechanics I am unsure all drone boats are viable.
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Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko Tower of Dark Alliance
21
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Posted - 2012.08.17 09:44:00 -
[172] - Quote
CCP Fozzie, I don't mean to doubt about drone tracking bonus of Tristan, but there is some concerns amongst the people about its usefullness for small drones. Will this really do any difference in the hitting against moving/orbiting targets (i. e. other small drones)? Maybe it's better to improve optimal/orbit range?
Check this in the test environments please. |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
216
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 10:07:00 -
[173] - Quote
Kelsar Hemah wrote:The utility slot is fairly useless, if kiting you cant really use it
Put it between your guns -> overheat longer.
Kelsar Hemah wrote:and in close the takes up the powergrid you need to use for tank to live long enough for it to have any effect. Unless you downgrade your guns to electrons in which case I would much rather be without.
You do 100 DPS with drones alone and then do 200 DPS when in Antimatter range (with no rigs or MFS). You have full tackle. A single DCII tank gives you 3500 EHP against every damage type (with a shallow Thermal hole). Two CCC rigs and your already strong recharge lets you run guns+AB+tackle+SAR for five minutes; substitute MWD and it's 40sec (but at 60% stability when not running the SAR). Overheat your MWD and with one Overdrive you're going 4200m/sec - there are a lot of faster ships that you can catch off-guard with that. Drop to an 'Accommodation' SAR and you can fit a nos (+ PG implant if using hybrid rigs) or a neut.
The only thing you can't do is fit plates without some pain. Neutrons + MWD + tackle + DCII + 200mm puts you 1.03% over PG. Add a module that costs only 1PG and you'll need an ACR rig or a +5% implant.
Is that the end of the world? An Executioner with Medium Pulse Laser II and otherwise the same fit is looking at being 7.38% over on PG. And also at 93 DPS with Scorch - less damage than you do with drones alone, with way less range. An active armor Rifter has a weaker tank to hybrid damage than you do with a DCII alone, with much less DPS and not much of a speed advantage and a far weaker capacitor. I dunno, Rifters used to seem pretty good.
But obviously the Tristan needs some heavy buffs, still. Like the ability to have a full flight of ECM drones in addition to damage drones. Or to have close to half the tank of a brick Punisher while having better than twice the DPS of one + total range control. Or to not have to fit speed mods to be as fast as an Imperial Navy Slicer.
Honestly, *shrug* |
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
130
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 10:33:00 -
[174] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.
came back next morning looking for blob'o'text with a mention of the inquisitor, left dissapointed :(
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Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1062
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 10:37:00 -
[175] - Quote
Thanks for all these fast updates, great work!
I, for one, am very very excited about the suggested Tristan <3333 finally a proper drone combat frig in line with Vexor et al. I see absolutely no problem with the dual weapon system, blasters and drones is a great combination, and the turret tracking bonus on Tristan also works with small rails. And woot, two tracking+hp bonused Hammerheads+Hob? Oh yes please :)
Missiles have always been a strange little dog in Gallente lineup, and this change of course could possibly mean that Lachesis & Arazu get more drone capability- which would be excellent, we need a proper drone recon as well!
All in all this frig revamp is one of the best things that has happened in a long time, frigates are easily among the most fun ships to fly, and improving them pleases both new players and vets.
Good going, sir :) Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Sakari Orisi
The Dark Space Initiative
44
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 10:52:00 -
[176] - Quote
Are these on sisi yet ? I'm itching to make a pyfa build with all these but I need them in the cache :D |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
161
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 11:32:00 -
[177] - Quote
ITTigerClawIK wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.
The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight. came back next morning looking for blob'o'text with a mention of the inquisitor, left dissapointed :(
The fact that CCP Fozzie said he was going into a meeting and would post loads of info after the meeting and then not posting anything may suggest things have changed. I can't see any other reason why he wouldn't make a post after saying he would. He does appear to be very interactive on the forums when he has info and reasons about decisions that have been made and answering feedback.
This sudden bout of silence after "a meeting" could mean a change in direction. |
Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 11:34:00 -
[178] - Quote
or he went to bed after long meeting , he needs his beauty sleep
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
161
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 11:42:00 -
[179] - Quote
I thought he was pretty enough! |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 11:44:00 -
[180] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Do you see where I am coming from, Gallente is the only race that has to train two weapon systems to get the most use out of their ship. Could you imagine how much complaining there would be if minmatar had projectile and missile bonuses?
oh, so you think you just train projectiles? and by the way i do not hear complaining about the typhoon, which does have bonuses for projectiles and and missiles. actually typhoon is awesome. you may also have a look at the huginn, which also has split bonuses and is thought to be a good ship.
to get the most variety out of your minmatar ships you need to train projectiles, drones, missiles. if you don't you miss potential, typhoon is the best example.
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1039
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:02:00 -
[181] - Quote
Ok I'm back. Sorry about the delay, things kinda piled up at the end of the day yesterday.
Spugg Galdon wrote: The fact that CCP Fozzie said he was going into a meeting and would post loads of info after the meeting and then not posting anything may suggest things have changed. I can't see any other reason why he wouldn't make a post after saying he would. He does appear to be very interactive on the forums when he has info and reasons about decisions that have been made and answering feedback.
This sudden bout of silence after "a meeting" could mean a change in direction.
Nothing quite so significant. Lots of meetings this week and next as we're currently doing the planning work to make sure we are all on the same page for the next few months, we didn't discuss ship balancing directly in any of the afternoon ones. Meetings simply ran over the end of the workday, then I had a social engagement, then I generally avoid making devposts while inebriated. What I should have done was make a quick post explaining that the comprehensive replies were delayed until today, that's my mistake and I apologize.
So I've gone over the whole thread a few times, and instead of quoting people I've picked out a bunch of themes to address since so many people asked similar excellent questions. Gonna split this into three posts, first on the Tristan, second on the other two frigates, and third on miscellaneous stuff like lasers cap use bonuses. Walls of text incoming.
Why aren't we making a Gallente tech one missile frigate?: Some of you have expressed concerns about our change of plans that will leave Gallente and Amarr without tech one missile frigates. It's true that both races have missile ships later in their tech two lines (Bombers, Khanid, Roden (kinda)) but they do not have any other tech one missile ships. We decided that the benefits of providing a missile frigate when the race does not use missiles at the tech one level was minor at best. Tech two and faction ships often require significantly more training to be effectively used, and each individual size of missiles are actually quite fast to train into. Getting new Gallente players to train rocket and light missile skills would mean that only the missile support skills would be of any use until they cross trained to another race. Giving a real droneboat option at the T1 frigate level and creating new gameplay with the Navitas were both higher priorities. To a large extent bombers are a special snowflake when it comes to training, we have no plans to change the weapon systems that bombers use.
Will we change the model of the Ishkur to match the Tristan?: No plans that I know of to change it, but as I'm not in the art department I can't rule it out forever. Progression based on base hull is nice from a lore perspective, but we consider it of secondary importance to good gameplay. Plus I love the way my Ishkur looks just the way it is.
Why does the Tristan have one less slot and/or less than 50m3 dronebay?: Removing a slot is one of the tricks we keep up our sleeve for when we need to lower the power level of a drone ship. Since drone ships are gaining so much of their damage without highslots, it ends up being a nerf that both balances the ship and reinforces its role. Another prominent ship that got the same treatment is the Ishkur. Balancing the Ishkur and balancing the new Tristan unsurprisingly presented a lot of similarities. The fact that we make you train Assault Ships 5 in order to get a full 50m3 on the Ishkur is also telling in this balance formula. Having spare drones is something we want, being able to casually carry full waves of multiple types of light drones on an already very powerful T1 frigate was too much. I completely understand how painful it can be to lose a wave of drones when you need to warp out, but every ship has tradeoffs in the end. Drones are very powerful on frigates and putting 25mbits bandwidth on a tech one frigate is a very dangerous move in a lot of ways. I've been challenging everyone in the office to 1v1s with the new combat frigs, and let me tell you the Tristan is best described as redonkulous.
What is the intended role of the Tristan? Long range or short range?: My favourite designs are ones where that choice is left to the individual player. The Tristan can work well as a kiting ship, and as a brawler. We intentionally made it slower than most Gallente frigates so it can't just stomp on everything else by kiting, but the advantages of its weapon systems still make kiting setups very worthwhile. One of the great features of the design is that you can actually build one setup that can adjust its engagement range very well based on what it is facing. I have very good success in playtests with a AB/Scram/Web buffer tank fit using blasters that could either kite at the edge of scram range against a closerange opponent using the tracking blasters to kill opposing drones, or move in for the kill against longer range frigates. You can rail fit it (although fittings are tight), you can even shield or armor tank it. I look forward to people exploring the interactions between the tracking bonus and sentry drones, although most people will probably choose to use light drones. The ship is very flexible.
What benefit is the drone tracking bonus for light drones? Many of you have commented that the drone tracking bonus seems to not reach its full potential with light drones and you are right. The drone tracking does increase damage against small sig moving targets (especially for those who choose Hobgoblins over Warriors) but it's less powerful for light drones than a damage bonus would be and that is by design. With a damage bonus the Tristan would we far too powerful so we gave it a bonus that serves two purposes: -It provides an effective damage bump in the most common gameplay that is significantly lower than the overpowered option -It creates room for some interesting gameplay experimentation, such as sentry drone tricks
Why do we keep giving ships split weapon systems between drones and turrets? It's a very valid question, and one that we have been looking at for several ships. In the end the pure drone options we looked at for the Tristan never matched what we were looking for with this design. Drones on frigates is a bit tougher to balance than drones on larger ships, but we have plans to add some stronger drone focuses to ships going forward. I know that's not the answer some of you were hoping for with this ship, but this isn't the last drone ship we're unveiling for winter.
I think th... |
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serras bang
Lucien Coven
8
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Posted - 2012.08.17 12:03:00 -
[182] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:serras bang wrote:like changes on the kestral but you do know the kestral will now fire rmissles in excess of 60k now ? perhaps even hitting 70k ? and still be capable of a top speed of over 2.4k ms Precisely. This is what I'm noticing with the frig rebalancing that is rather bad. Caldari are being given extreme weapon range. Range that no other frigs and destroyers can even get close to. What is it with 10% range bonuses with Caldari ships. How about 5% or 7.5%. Other races live with those sized bonuses. Also, give some range bonuses to other races. Missile range skills are both 10% per level. Then you give one or two 10% range bonuses with the ships. Then this gets applied to light missiles and rails, the two longest range small weapons systems. It's frickin crazy At the same time the new Caldari small ships are able to make use of the new asbs with resist bonuses and a free mid for a td and thus they can end up brawling better than other frigs specifically designed for brawling and in no way able to kite or snipe. Examples of this being new Cormorants, Condors, Merlins, and the Hookbill. It's one thing to have racial preferences in combat styles. It's another thing to make only one race capable of a whole style of combat and the other races not able to engage in that style. Unfortunately it appears the latest changes are making the game more heavily tilted toward the latter. Now to some this might not be a bad thing (to me it is) but it's even worse if you also allow that same one race alone to avoid the combat role straightjacket and not the other races. As to the specifics of the latest changes. I've already mentioned my puzzlement with the Kestral extreme range. Why is the tristan shorted a slot? You do not give a drone damage bonus. So what is the rationale? If you look at the drone boats at larger sizes the Myrm and Domi (and scorp a similar design feature), they actually get a compensatory non-high slot for losing a couple highs. You limit the tristan to two gun slots and a utility. And then you do not give it the customary compensatory non-high slot. Also, what's with the sig radius changes? -9m for the kestral yet you leave the tristan at 41? This seems extreme. Is Caldari now going to have no downside for their shield tanks? Then fitting tristan 35pg and 130cpu, kestral 45pwg 180cpu WTF And if a kestral needs 45pwg why does a breacher only need 35pwg? Is one launcher really worth 10pg and does one launcher really equal 2 light drones? Lastly speed, the tristan is the slowest? Why are you stepping it into the former Caldari position in this regard. You appear to be exagerating the racial differences in ships while at the same time granting only one of those races beneficial exemptions from its former relative shortcomings. I really can't believe what I'm seeing. It makes no sense. If this carries on to the larger ships you might as well just delete Gallente and Amarr and armor tanking in general. The eve-kill top twenty has been dominated by shield ships for a while, months, years, and it keeps getting more extreme every month. If Caldari is going to become faster than Gallente, remain more tanky, retain and even increase engagement range and kiting abilities, and still have the best ewar, do us all a favor and just delete Gallente from the database. The only gallente ship in the top twenty is the Lachesis and that is there for it's long tackle role and oh btw it shield tanks and uses missiles edit- and stop throwing a stupid increase of 2.5% in active armor tanking to Gallente as if it will make a difference. It doesn't and it won't. It marginally helps pve tanking. It means fuckall for pvp. Unless you are going to introduce an equivalent op ancilliary armor repairer line? Also the adaptive armor hardener is weaksauce or worse (like cap wise for a frig). Wake the **** up you guys.
you know what for once i agree with you on caldari ship desing the kestral didnt need extra dmg range as it was capable of over 50 lock and fire range and tbh thats enough for a frigate. what it did need though was some way of fitting a much much better shield in that kinda range. and i know there gonna argue but we have with the bonusses but again neglagible they have given us a new mid witch totaly negates needing the bonusses and we have still yet to see a caldari ship with a bonus to shields like most other races that get shield boost bonusses and armour rep bonusus. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1062
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:16:00 -
[183] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: --- EXCELLENT stuff ----
As a pure Gallente pilot, I fully agree with your line of thinking, both on the missile issue and the general perspective on drone ship fitting styles and ship progression.
Someone at CCP loves & understands Gallente <3 Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
696
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:19:00 -
[184] - Quote
No longer misleading gallente and amarr newbies by showing them their missile frigs and getting them to excitedly train missile skills, only for them to realise they have no more missile platforms until they hit T2 hulls, is an awesome step in the right direction. Thanks! Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
249
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:31:00 -
[185] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Why does the Tristan have one less slot and/or less than 50m3 dronebay?: ... The fact that we make you train Assault Ships 5 in order to get a full 50m3 on the Ishkur is also telling in this balance formula. Having spare drones is something we want, being able to casually carry full waves of multiple types of light drones on an already very powerful T1 frigate was too much.
I am BEGGING YOU, give this some more thought.
In what way is it too much? And how does carrying 2.0 flights differ in a significant way from 1.6 sets?
Consider this: Currently I could carry 5 lights, and 3 EWAR. With a change to 50m3, I would carry 5 lights, 5 EWAR. There is a difference, but is it crippling? Considering I can only deploy any 5 at any one time, and they have to travel to and from target?
Also consider that this comes at an increased cost. A ship with one flight of drones, when it dies, costs a lot less than a ship with 2 flights of drones. EACH flight of T2 lights adds another 1,000,000 ISK to the price of the ship! It is pure risk vs reward. I risk an extra 1mil ISK for flexibility. IMHO, it makes absolute sense to allow drone boats to carry a minimum of 2 flights, preferably 3 flights like you've done on the Crucifier.
Quote:I completely understand how painful it can be to lose a wave of drones when you need to warp out, but every ship has tradeoffs in the end.
Name me a ship, any ship, where if you are forced to suddenly warp out in combat, you HAVE to go back to home base and restock, because you are now at 60% efficiency? Would any of the other frigates have to deal with this? The answer is - no. Only drone boats.
This is not a tradeoff. Having to abandon a roam and go back 10-20 jumps to reload, and 10-20 jumps back (and if the fleet moved on by then, even more jumps) is not just painful. It is THE END of your roam for all intents and purposes.
People already starting to dislike me flying drone boats with them for a number of reasons. One is what I outlined above, that a single hot warpout means I'm either no longer fully combat-effective, or have to leave them and go back to reload. The other problems are the standard drone issues - how long it takes to deploy drones, how long it takes for them to apply damage. Etc., etc. Bottom line - drone boats, IN USE, from usability standpoints, are still vastly inferior to turrets/missiles.
Bottom line, if you want to keep the status quo, which is almost nobody using drone boats for anything serious, this 40m3 stuff will certainly do it. I'm currently training turrets and there's no way in holy heck I would be flying this on a long-range roam precisely because if anything happens to drones, I'm crippled permanently.
Quote:Drones are very powerful on frigates and putting 25mbits bandwidth on a tech one frigate is a very dangerous move in a lot of ways. I've been challenging everyone in the office to 1v1s with the new combat frigs, and let me tell you the Tristan is best described as redonkulous.
As long as you can only deploy 5, there's no excuse not to allow them to carry more. Also you had no problem giving a Crucifier 3.0 drone flights. Why not do at least 2.0 on a DRONE boat?
I'm sorry, but this just absolutely makes no sense from USABILITY point of view. Balance doesn't even enter into it yet. If I can't reasonably use it, I'm not going to use it, balanced or not. If a single hot warpout means you have to abandon and go for a reload, no matter how amazing and flexible the ship is, it is just not usable.
Quote:Why do we keep giving ships split weapon systems between drones and turrets? It's a very valid question, and one that we have been looking at for several ships. In the end the pure drone options we looked at for the Tristan never matched what we were looking for with this design. Drones on frigates is a bit tougher to balance than drones on larger ships, but we have plans to add some stronger drone focuses to ships going forward. I know that's not the answer some of you were hoping for with this ship, but this isn't the last drone ship we're unveiling for winter.
That's fine, but once again this is not balanced from usability standpoint!
Simple example:
A non-split-weapon-system frigate engaging me does what? CTRL+Click to target. F1 or click to fire weapons. _______________ Total: 2 clicks
A split-non-drone-weapon-system frigate engaging me does what? CTRL+Click to target. F1 or click to fire weapon system 1.. F2 or click to fire weapon system 2. ______________________________ Total: 3 clicks.
A split-drone/hybrids-failure frigate engaging me does what? CTRL+Click to target. F1 or click to fire hybrid turrets. Left-click on "Drones in Bay". Right-click to open contextual menu. Left-click "Launch Drones". F or click attack icon to send drones to attack. ______________________________________ Total: 6 clicks!
How is this balanced?! A drone user already has to work 3 times as hard (which takes time to do, by the way, as UI is still not lightning fast and responsive), on top of the other drone shortcomings. This is the reason not many people fly drone boats. Also the reason why drone boats are not part of any fleet doctrine, as evidenced by EVEKill. They're just that much slower compared to a single weapon system. |
Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:33:00 -
[186] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ok I'm back. Sorry about the delay, things kinda piled up at the end of the day yesterday. Spugg Galdon wrote: The fact that CCP Fozzie said he was going into a meeting and would post loads of info after the meeting and then not posting anything may suggest things have changed. I can't see any other reason why he wouldn't make a post after saying he would. He does appear to be very interactive on the forums when he has info and reasons about decisions that have been made and answering feedback.
This sudden bout of silence after "a meeting" could mean a change in direction.
Nothing quite so significant. Lots of meetings this week and next as we're currently doing the planning work to make sure we are all on the same page for the next few months, we didn't discuss ship balancing directly in any of the afternoon ones. Meetings simply ran over the end of the workday, then I had a social engagement, then I generally avoid making devposts while inebriated. What I should have done was make a quick post explaining that the comprehensive replies were delayed until today, that's my mistake and I apologize.
No problem. But it would have been more fun for us if you posted inebriated. Wouldn't even have to be about spaceships.
CCP Fozzie wrote: So I've gone over the whole thread a few times, and instead of quoting people I've picked out a bunch of themes to address since so many people asked similar excellent questions. Gonna split this into three posts, first on the Tristan, second on the other two frigates, and third on miscellaneous stuff like lasers cap use bonuses. Walls of text incoming.
Why aren't we making a Gallente tech one missile frigate?: Some of you have expressed concerns about our change of plans that will leave Gallente and Amarr without tech one missile frigates. It's true that both races have missile ships later in their tech two lines (Bombers, Khanid, Roden (kinda)) but they do not have any other tech one missile ships. We decided that the benefits of providing a missile frigate when the race does not use missiles at the tech one level was minor at best. Tech two and faction ships often require significantly more training to be effectively used, and each individual size of missiles are actually quite fast to train into. Getting new Gallente players to train rocket and light missile skills would mean that only the missile support skills would be of any use until they cross trained to another race. Giving a real droneboat option at the T1 frigate level and creating new gameplay with the Navitas were both higher priorities. To a large extent bombers are a special snowflake when it comes to training, we have no plans to change the weapon systems that bombers use.
If going forward, you want to make sure all Amarr T1 ships have enough turrets and bonuses to not be considered missile ships I would support that.
I would say with the general Tiericide that if you ever wanted to make Amarr or Gallente T1 missile ships in the future you could easily add them. More ships better! |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1040
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:33:00 -
[187] - Quote
Now for the other two frigates.
Does the Kestrel buff seem minor?: To a certain extent yes. We have technically reduced the maximum potential dps of the ship by dropping the 10% kinetic damage bonus down to 5% like the others. However in practice I believe that the ship will be much improved. The extra midslot means the ship can control range much better with rocket fits, and the extra CPU means that it's much more viable for those rocket setups to fit two BCUs. The fittings also make light missiles much more viable, and the ship will be released alongside the already announced light missile changes:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
All light missile variations: explosion radius reduced from 50 to 40, damage increased by 10% It is very possible that the Kestrel may need some more tweaks as we go forward, and we're keeping a close eye on it.
Why not give either ship a rocket ROF bonus?: I did consider it, since a ROF bonus would give a slightly higher dps increase than the damage bonus. However rocket rate of fire bonuses have been avoided for a long time due to server load issues. I asked CCP Veritas if the improvements CCP has made in missile load were enough to allow the introduction of new rocket ROF bonuses, and he gave me his "If I have to choose either our servers or you to burn in a fire, it won't be the servers" look. So I dropped that idea.
Why did you nerf the cyno Kessie?: The cyno kessie is a point of nostalgia for many players including myself, so my initial plan had the Kestrel keeping its cargo bay. ASB cap charges and issues of balance within the class convinced me to level it out though. I know it will never be quite the same, but cyno Herons will be pretty awesome after the patch.
The Breacher does too little damage!: On paper and EFT the Breacher definitely suffers next to the other combat frigates, however when you consider the utility of being able to use any damage type, as well as the better real-world damage application of frigate missiles and light drones, it ends up looking a lot better. I've been having a lot of fun with it on our internal test server, and I think you guys will enjoy it as well.
Ok one more post incoming with responses to general comments. |
|
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:51:00 -
[188] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Now for the other two frigates. Does the Kestrel buff seem minor?:To a certain extent yes. We have technically reduced the maximum potential dps of the ship by dropping the 10% kinetic damage bonus down to 5% like the others. However in practice I believe that the ship will be much improved. The extra midslot means the ship can control range much better with rocket fits, and the extra CPU means that it's much more viable for those rocket setups to fit two BCUs. The fittings also make light missiles much more viable, and the ship will be released alongside the already announced light missile changes: CCP Ytterbium wrote:
All light missile variations: explosion radius reduced from 50 to 40, damage increased by 10% It is very possible that the Kestrel may need some more tweaks as we go forward, and we're keeping a close eye on it.
do the bonuses on your proposed kestrel apply to rockets too? or do they just improve light missiles? |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1041
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:52:00 -
[189] - Quote
Ok now to cover some of the other discussion.
Laser cap use bonus on Amarr ships: So this became a pretty heated debate in the thread, and I'm going to address it even if it is a bit off topic. The original design of lasers was that they essentially had a built in damage bonus, being more powerful in base damage than any other weapon system. In the time since launch however that specific damage advantage has diluted somewhat, as most of the buffs lasers received over the years were to tracking. Pulse lasers tend to have good damage and excellent range for short range guns, and Beams have good damage, fair range and excellent tracking compared to other long range options. There are a lot of Amarr ships that need help, as well as many that are working well. Certain problems are tied to the weapons themselves, for instance fittings on small lasers need help and many of the problems with beams are tied to the weapons. We're taking our first steps towards improving the fitting situation for frigates in the already announced changes for winter:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
All medium beam laser variations: -1 PWG and -1 CPU All medium pulse laser variations: -1 PWG and -1 CPU Expect more tweaks to many weapon systems, including lasers, as we go forward.
That being said I do not think the solution to the problem is to build the cap use bonus back into the guns. The high cap use is a defining feature of lasers, helps create interesting player decisions on Amarr ships, and I believe it provides us more balance tools than it removes. There's a lot we need to fix with many Amarr ships, but I do not currently expect that the solution is going to be removing the cap use bonuses across the board.
Repair paste on drones: I like that idea, maybe someday (no promises).
Why are these ship balancing changes coming in one big lump in Winter?: It's a very valid question since it is a slight departure from our new usual of smaller faster releases. There are two main reasons for it. One is that our release schedule for the rest of 2012 is a bit unusual, as the CSM minutes described:
Summer 2012 CSM Minutes wrote: Going deeper into the winter schedule CCP said there would be an EVE release in June, an EVE release in August and then a big EVE release in December GÇô a small break in the stride of GÇÿrelease small and oftenGÇÖ (close to every month) held by CCP since the beginning of Crucible.
The other reason is that we're in the process of increasing the pace at which we can do ship balancing. The ship balance team has been at one person for a long time, but now that Ytterbium has backup from a returned CCP Tallest and myself, we are getting used to having more people to share the workload. The end result will be faster paces of redesigns (not going to take until 2020, don't worry).
When can we test these changes? As soon as we can. Details are being ironed out. Hang with us as testing changes this early isn't something we're used to yet. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1041
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:53:00 -
[190] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Now for the other two frigates. Does the Kestrel buff seem minor?:To a certain extent yes. We have technically reduced the maximum potential dps of the ship by dropping the 10% kinetic damage bonus down to 5% like the others. However in practice I believe that the ship will be much improved. The extra midslot means the ship can control range much better with rocket fits, and the extra CPU means that it's much more viable for those rocket setups to fit two BCUs. The fittings also make light missiles much more viable, and the ship will be released alongside the already announced light missile changes: CCP Ytterbium wrote:
All light missile variations: explosion radius reduced from 50 to 40, damage increased by 10% It is very possible that the Kestrel may need some more tweaks as we go forward, and we're keeping a close eye on it. do the bonuses on your proposed kestrel apply to rockets too? or do they just improve light missiles?
They apply to all missiles, including rockets. |
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Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:57:00 -
[191] - Quote
so when can we expect the big unveil of the navitas/other combat frigs? everyone is thinking logi frigs mm.. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:00:00 -
[192] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
They apply to all missiles, including rockets.
thank you for this and your wall of text ;)
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Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1063
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:05:00 -
[193] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: The other reason is that we're in the process of increasing the pace at which we can do ship balancing. The ship balance team has been at one person for a long time, but now that Ytterbium has backup from a returned CCP Tallest and myself, we are getting used to having more people to share the workload. The end result will be faster paces of redesigns (not going to take until 2020, don't worry).
When can we test these changes? As soon as we can. Details are being ironed out. Hang with us as testing changes this early isn't something we're used to yet.
Two best things I've read about EVE this year. Maybe last year too :)
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
374
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:13:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Expect more tweaks to many weapon systems, including lasers, as we go forward.
That being said I do not think the solution to the problem is to build the cap use bonus back into the guns. The high cap use is a defining feature of lasers, helps create interesting player decisions on Amarr ships, and I believe it provides us more balance tools than it removes. There's a lot we need to fix with many Amarr ships, but I do not currently expect that the solution is going to be removing the cap use bonuses across the board.
Thanks for the clarification on this and the rest. It helps us align our discussion with dev plans.
By the way, after some consideration, I like the idea of logistics frigates. With logistics and better ewar, frigate gangs are about to get real. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
35
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:17:00 -
[195] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ok now to cover some of the other discussion. Laser cap use bonus on Amarr ships:So this became a pretty heated debate in the thread, and I'm going to address it even if it is a bit off topic. The original design of lasers was that they essentially had a built in damage bonus, being more powerful in base damage than any other weapon system. In the time since launch however that specific damage advantage has diluted somewhat, as most of the buffs lasers received over the years were to tracking. Pulse lasers tend to have good damage and excellent range for short range guns, and Beams have good damage, fair range and excellent tracking compared to other long range options. There are a lot of Amarr ships that need help, as well as many that are working well. Certain problems are tied to the weapons themselves, for instance fittings on small lasers need help and many of the problems with beams are tied to the weapons. We're taking our first steps towards improving the fitting situation for frigates in the already announced changes for winter: CCP Ytterbium wrote:All medium beam laser variations: -1 PWG and -1 CPU All medium pulse laser variations: -1 PWG and -1 CPU Expect more tweaks to many weapon systems, including lasers, as we go forward. That being said I do not think the solution to the problem is to build the cap use bonus back into the guns. The high cap use is a defining feature of lasers, helps create interesting player decisions on Amarr ships, and I believe it provides us more balance tools than it removes. There's a lot we need to fix with many Amarr ships, but I do not currently expect that the solution is going to be removing the cap use bonuses across the board.
Well if you want to add a base damage buff to lasers or more tracking or something that sounds fine too. (j/k)
Thanks for the reply. Its nice to know spamming the forums works eventually.
I still think the cap use on lasers is out of whack, but appreciate the work you all are doing. Looking forward to December.
Think the new Destroyers are going to make it in? |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
46
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:22:00 -
[196] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Why do we keep giving ships split weapon systems between drones and turrets? It's a very valid question, and one that we have been looking at for several ships. In the end the pure drone options we looked at for the Tristan never matched what we were looking for with this design. Drones on frigates is a bit tougher to balance than drones on larger ships, but we have plans to add some stronger drone focuses to ships going forward. I know that's not the answer some of you were hoping for with this ship, but this isn't the last drone ship we're unveiling for winter.
Ok |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
249
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:25:00 -
[197] - Quote
To expand on the previous post from an hour or so ago, higher up #185 (the big wall of text), I was just talking about these issues with someone and some things leaped to mind.
Small Drone Bay (under 2.0 flights)
This is kind of like making a gun in an FPS game, where you can only carry one clip of ammo. As soon as that's spent, whether you use it up effectively, miss or just drop the clip 'cause you're clumsy, you have to run back to the spawn to reload. Would this gun be popular, compared to a gun where you CANNOT drop the clip, and where you can carry a hundred clips? I think the answer is obvious.
That's the issue with drones. Drones are, in a way, just ammo. While using them it doesn't mean you'll use them up, but things happen. Hot warpout, smartbomb, direct enemy fire, enemy drones, etc. Without ability to repair them in hold on the move, there's really nothing you can do, they do get "used up". By the way I love the idea of nanite paste repair on drones, but first we have to be able to see drone HP in bay.
Bottom line, with currently proposed Tristan, we are carrying 1.6 clips of ammo. Once those are gone, we are done. And the rate at which the drones get used up can range from never, to instant loss of 1.0 of 1.6, because of a hot warpout. One warpout, you're down to 0.6, two warpouts you're down to 0.0 and 2 turrets, which is to say you're done. Which brings me to usability.
Usability
This whole issue reminds me of what CCP Soundwave said earlier in the year, around FanFest, regarding Bookmarks and sharing. Basically, until he moved into Wormhole space, and started living there, he had no idea just how horrible it was, being unable to share bookmarks with a corp easily. It was only AFTER he started USING the mechanics that he realized how broken they were, and (partially in self-interest) that's where he pushed for the changes we all enjoy now.
I'm afraid that it will take something like this to actually make drone boats viable. Until one or more of the Devs begin to use drone boats, and ONLY drone boats, for whatever it is they're doing, I don't think we'll see any changes that improve real-world (within EVE) usability of these ships. |
John Nucleus
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:26:00 -
[198] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Laser cap use bonus on Amarr ships:So this became a pretty heated debate in the thread, and I'm going to address it even if it is a bit off topic. The original design of lasers was that they essentially had a built in damage bonus, being more powerful in base damage than any other weapon system. In the time since launch however that specific damage advantage has diluted somewhat, as most of the buffs lasers received over the years were to tracking. Pulse lasers tend to have good damage and excellent range for short range guns, and Beams have good damage, fair range and excellent tracking compared to other long range options. There are a lot of Amarr ships that need help, as well as many that are working well. Certain problems are tied to the weapons themselves, for instance fittings on small lasers need help and many of the problems with beams are tied to the weapons. We're taking our first steps towards improving the fitting situation for frigates in the already announced changes for winter: CCP Ytterbium wrote:All medium beam laser variations: -1 PWG and -1 CPU All medium pulse laser variations: -1 PWG and -1 CPU
Great to hear that you guyz are looking into it. Btw, isn't it suppose to be Small* pulse and beam laser if it's for frigate or you are talking about the "small" Medium Pulse Laser?
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1046
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:35:00 -
[199] - Quote
John Nucleus wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Laser cap use bonus on Amarr ships:So this became a pretty heated debate in the thread, and I'm going to address it even if it is a bit off topic. The original design of lasers was that they essentially had a built in damage bonus, being more powerful in base damage than any other weapon system. In the time since launch however that specific damage advantage has diluted somewhat, as most of the buffs lasers received over the years were to tracking. Pulse lasers tend to have good damage and excellent range for short range guns, and Beams have good damage, fair range and excellent tracking compared to other long range options. There are a lot of Amarr ships that need help, as well as many that are working well. Certain problems are tied to the weapons themselves, for instance fittings on small lasers need help and many of the problems with beams are tied to the weapons. We're taking our first steps towards improving the fitting situation for frigates in the already announced changes for winter: CCP Ytterbium wrote:All medium beam laser variations: -1 PWG and -1 CPU All medium pulse laser variations: -1 PWG and -1 CPU Great to hear that you guyz are looking into it. Btw, isn't it suppose to be Small* pulse and beam laser if it's for frigate or you are talking about the "small" Medium Pulse Laser?
Yeah it's the top tier small lasers. CCP Foxfour is working on getting those confusing names fixed as we speak. |
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Lili Lu
343
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:51:00 -
[200] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Will we change the model of the Ishkur to match the Tristan?: No plans that I know of to change it, but as I'm not in the art department I can't rule it out forever. Progression based on base hull is nice from a lore perspective, but we consider it of secondary importance to good gameplay. Plus I love the way my Ishkur looks just the way it is. Thanks, don't change it. I still miss the swirly antenae on the old Ishkur and Helios (maulus hull)
CCP Fozzie wrote:Why does the Tristan have one less slot and/or less than 50m3 dronebay?: Removing a slot is one of the tricks we keep up our sleeve for when we need to lower the power level of a drone ship. Since drone ships are gaining so much of their damage without highslots, it ends up being a nerf that both balances the ship and reinforces its role. Another prominent ship that got the same treatment is the Ishkur. Balancing the Ishkur and balancing the new Tristan unsurprisingly presented a lot of similarities. The fact that we make you train Assault Ships 5 in order to get a full 50m3 on the Ishkur is also telling in this balance formula. Having spare drones is something we want, being able to casually carry full waves of multiple types of light drones on an already very powerful T1 frigate was too much. I completely understand how painful it can be to lose a wave of drones when you need to warp out, but every ship has tradeoffs in the end. Drones are very powerful on frigates and putting 25mbits bandwidth on a tech one frigate is a very dangerous move in a lot of ways. I've been challenging everyone in the office to 1v1s with the new combat frigs, and let me tell you the Tristan is best described as redonkulous. Then just make the bandwidth 20m3. Newer players likely to use the ship will not all have drones 5 trained. That missing slot is very much needed for the flexibility you say you want for the ship.
CCP Fozzie wrote:What is the intended role of the Tristan? Long range or short range?: My favourite designs are ones where that choice is left to the individual player. The Tristan can work well as a kiting ship, and as a brawler. We intentionally made it slower than most Gallente frigates so it can't just stomp on everything else by kiting, but the advantages of its weapon systems still make kiting setups very worthwhile. One of the great features of the design is that you can actually build one setup that can adjust its engagement range very well based on what it is facing. I have very good success in playtests with a AB/Scram/Web buffer tank fit using blasters that could either kite at the edge of scram range against a closerange opponent using the tracking blasters to kill opposing drones, or move in for the kill against longer range frigates. You can rail fit it (although fittings are tight), you can even shield or armor tank it. I look forward to people exploring the interactions between the tracking bonus and sentry drones, although most people will probably choose to use light drones. The ship is very flexible. No. Giving it only 3 of each slot is not making it adaptable, it is simply gimping it for any configuration. And giving it less speed ditto. The Kestrel moves faster than it ffs and has ridiculous range. You apparently don't care about Caldari ships stomping on everything else by kiting yet worry that a tristan will do this? As for rails you are making them worthless on all Gallente ships.
I really am very disappointed by the extreme range you are giving caldari ships and conversely forcing all gallente ships into close range. And then simultaneously failing to see how the new asbs are making the caldari ships better at all ranges. Don't any of you have alts in FW? That's where frigates get used a lot. It's all cormorants, merlins, condors, hookbills now and will be kestrels (oh and griffins). A few non-caldari ships get used like thrashers and slicers. If you want to see the failure of your gallente ideas take a look at the comet.
CCP Fozzie wrote:What benefit is the drone tracking bonus for light drones? Many of you have commented that the drone tracking bonus seems to not reach its full potential with light drones and you are right. The drone tracking does increase damage against small sig moving targets (especially for those who choose Hobgoblins over Warriors) but it's less powerful for light drones than a damage bonus would be and that is by design. With a damage bonus the Tristan would we far too powerful so we gave it a bonus that serves two purposes: -It provides an effective damage bump in the most common gameplay that is significantly lower than the overpowered option -It creates room for some interesting gameplay experimentation, such as sentry drone tricks Seriously? sentry drone frigs? Do you realize how much training it takes to get into sentry drones. New players will not be there for you in that. As for vets, sentries still suck for immobility. They are great for pve, but not for pvp. PVP battles move a lot whether on the same grid or around a system or btween multiple systems. Sentries are wholly disadvantageous for pvp. There is a reason missile and gun boats dominate the top twenty in eve-kill and no drone boats there. |
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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
134
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 14:02:00 -
[201] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:To expand on the previous post from an hour or so ago, higher up #185 (the big wall of text), I was just talking about these issues with someone and some things leaped to mind.
Small Drone Bay (under 2.0 flights)
This is kind of like making a gun in an FPS game, where you can only carry one clip of ammo. As soon as that's spent, whether you use it up effectively, miss or just drop the clip 'cause you're clumsy, you have to run back to the spawn to reload. Would this gun be popular, compared to a gun where you CANNOT drop the clip, and where you can carry a hundred clips? I think the answer is obvious.
That's the issue with drones. Drones are, in a way, just ammo. While using them it doesn't mean you'll use them up, but things happen. Hot warpout, smartbomb, direct enemy fire, enemy drones, etc. Without ability to repair them in hold on the move, there's really nothing you can do, they do get "used up". By the way I love the idea of nanite paste repair on drones, but first we have to be able to see drone HP in bay.
Bottom line, with currently proposed Tristan, we are carrying 1.6 clips of ammo. Once those are gone, we are done. And the rate at which the drones get used up can range from never, to instant loss of 1.0 of 1.6, because of a hot warpout. One warpout, you're down to 0.6, two warpouts you're down to 0.0 and 2 turrets, which is to say you're done. Which brings me to usability.
Usability
This whole issue reminds me of what CCP Soundwave said earlier in the year, around FanFest, regarding Bookmarks and sharing. Basically, until he moved into Wormhole space, and started living there, he had no idea just how horrible it was, being unable to share bookmarks with a corp easily. It was only AFTER he started USING the mechanics that he realized how broken they were, and (partially in self-interest) that's where he pushed for the changes we all enjoy now.
I'm afraid that it will take something like this to actually make drone boats viable. Until one or more of the Devs begin to use drone boats, and ONLY drone boats, for whatever it is they're doing, I don't think we'll see any changes that improve real-world (within EVE) usability of these ships.
Fozzie, you also have to take into account small gang PVP. It isn't a 1v1 or a large fleet flight. There is a lot of cat-and-mouse engagements (or hit-and-run if you like). Not being able to deploy your damage or recall it at a moments notice basically kills this type of tactic for drone boats if we can't field another flight of drones.
I would also like to challenge you to a couple of 1v1's. I bet you won't be saying the Tristan is overpowered after that ;-)
So the Navitas is going to be a drone boat! You tease!!!!!
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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
134
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 14:06:00 -
[202] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:What benefit is the drone tracking bonus for light drones? Many of you have commented that the drone tracking bonus seems to not reach its full potential with light drones and you are right. The drone tracking does increase damage against small sig moving targets (especially for those who choose Hobgoblins over Warriors) but it's less powerful for light drones than a damage bonus would be and that is by design. With a damage bonus the Tristan would we far too powerful so we gave it a bonus that serves two purposes: -It provides an effective damage bump in the most common gameplay that is significantly lower than the overpowered option -It creates room for some interesting gameplay experimentation, such as sentry drone tricks Seriously? sentry drone frigs? Do you realize how much training it takes to get into sentry drones. New players will not be there for you in that. As for vets, sentries still suck for immobility. They are great for pve, but not for pvp. PVP battles move a lot whether on the same grid or around a system or btween multiple systems. Sentries are wholly disadvantageous for pvp. There is a reason missile and gun boats dominate the top twenty in eve-kill and no drone boats there.
Agreed. If you are worried about balancing because of sentries please slap a "Can not deploy sentries on it". I only recently just got T2 sentries. The only reason I did was because I had to repair my sec status and needed to shoot rats. Now if you gave us small sentries that is another story. |
Lili Lu
343
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 14:11:00 -
[203] - Quote
Which makes me again ask you guys whether you care about the lopsided eve-kill stats and your own internal stats about module activations. It's all drakes, tengus, and heavy missiles. It has been this way for years now and appears to be getting worse since the introduction of asbs.
I posted a thread in the test server subforum asking ytterbioum to reconsider the one plodding step at a time approach. There are tweaks you can do as interim measures to try to combat the combat hegemony that is the present Drakes and Tengus Online (and at the smaller ship level (merlin, cormorant, hookbill, condor, griffin, etc) eve.
As for your frig rebalancing it seems things will only get worse. You are setting caldari up as the only and far away blessed for it long range ships. Noone else it seems is getting any niche ship there. Then caldari is also getting close range possibilities as well. The top 20 (yeah i keep citing it because it's about the only statistical tool we have, but i know you have more available to you) is now dominated by caldari and minmatar shield tanking ships.
A ridiculous 70km kestrel will just be another addition to the ongoing trends. Light missiles need the slight damage buff you are giving them, but the ships that use them do not need a 10% range bonus. The only way that even could be palatable would be if you give TDs a missile flight time reduction effect. Then tds would become a mandatory mod. But they are already being used by caldari ships to **** over gallente ships as it is and at the frigate level. You could reduce the missile flight time skill to 5% per level as well. Rockets will still be usable for what they should be which is close range weapons.
Kiting is where it's at in eve atm. The tristan will not be able to do it as you have it presently configured. The kestrel will. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
134
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 14:18:00 -
[204] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Which makes me again ask you guys whether you care about the lopsided eve-kill stats and your own internal stats about module activations. It's all drakes, tengus, and heavy missiles. It has been this way for years now and appears to be getting worse since the introduction of asbs.
I posted a thread in the test server subforum asking ytterbioum to reconsider the one plodding step at a time approach. There are tweaks you can do as interim measures to try to combat the combat hegemony that is the present Drakes and Tengus Online (and at the smaller ship level (merlin, cormorant, hookbill, condor, griffin, etc) eve.
As for your frig rebalancing it seems things will only get worse. You are setting caldari up as the only and far away blessed for it long range ships. Noone else it seems is getting any niche ship there. Then caldari is also getting close range possibilities as well. The top 20 (yeah i keep citing it because it's about the only statistical tool we have, but i know you have more available to you) is now dominated by caldari and minmatar shield tanking ships.
A ridiculous 70km kestrel will just be another addition to the ongoing trends. Light missiles need the slight damage buff you are giving them, but the ships that use them do not need a 10% range bonus. The only way that even could be palatable would be if you give TDs a missile flight time reduction effect. Then tds would become a mandatory mod. But they are already being used by caldari ships to **** over gallente ships as it is and at the frigate level. You could reduce the missile flight time skill to 5% per level as well. Rockets will still be usable for what they should be which is close range weapons.
Kiting is where it's at in eve atm. The tristan will not be able to do it as you have it presently configured. The kestrel will.
I was going to use Merlins, Condors, and Kestrels in my 1v1's with Fozzie. Thanks for spoling my plan! He would have lost every match!
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Lili Lu
343
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 14:29:00 -
[205] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote: I was going to use Merlins, Condors, and Kestrels in my 1v1's with Fozzie. Thanks for spoling my plan! He would have lost every match!
That's ok. He's ignoring me in all these threads. Maybe you'll benefit from it.
I don't think they understand the horrible state of balance in eve atm and their proposals will only exagerate the imbalances. I've got 4 accounts. I love eve. I play it a lot even though the balance sucks so bad (fight the power!). But the moment a new space game comes on market that is better balanced I'll let these accounts lapse. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
374
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 14:38:00 -
[206] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Kiting is where it's at in eve atm.
I agree. Why brawl when you can kite?
Tiericide and the ship rebalancing initiative won't change that. It's a problem rooted in modules and weapon systems rather than ship hulls. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
801
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 14:41:00 -
[207] - Quote
Although I'm liking where you're going with all these changes.
And I know you want to build in the "Combat,Attack,Support, etc" Ship lines...
I hope we don't see each ship in each class simply become "Bigger" versions of the last ships. Same bonuses on bigger ships is really gonna become a snooze fest.
I know you're still in the early stages, but giving the same bonuses for a Stabber and Breacher just with more HP is gonna make me
I hope you have some plans to shake it up a bit! Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
252
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:00:00 -
[208] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Which makes me again ask you guys whether you care about the lopsided eve-kill stats and your own internal stats about module activations. It's all drakes, tengus, and heavy missiles. It has been this way for years now and appears to be getting worse since the introduction of asbs.
You know, I often wonder about this same thing when it comes to games in general, not just EVE.
I remember back when arenas were introduced to WoW, and there were very obvious imbalances. Like 80% of top ranked 3v3 teams had the exact same composition - rogue, mage, priest. In 2v2, any combination of those also was quite high on the list. And in 5v5, EVERY SINGLE TEAM in top 100 had a shaman. Every. Bloody. One.
Now, there were lots of very good reasons why. Class synergy was one. The amount of control another. Independent diminishing returns timers due to ability types, which allowed them to stack. And the reason for the shaman was simple - Bloodlust - which was essentially +30% DPS team-wide buff for 60 seconds. A team without it stood no chance against a team with it. So, shaman was mandatory. No ifs, no buts.
Now, these imbalances were obvious. You had to look at the ladder, see team compositions and team representations, and you saw which classes needed work. It wasn't rocket surgery. For example, there was 1 (only 1 out of 300) feral druid in top 100 teams in 3v3 at the time. Again, you could argue a lot of things - you could say "well, maybe players who like feral druids don't like arenas, and specifically don't like 3v3 arenas, and that's why there's so few of them". Or you could pull your head out of wherever it's at for the winter and realize the class does not synergize well with anyone, takes three times as many keypresses to accomplish the same task, and in general makes it feel like you're playing chess when everyone else is playing checkers.
It's the same in EVE. You look at see all the Drakes and Tengus. The usual excuse? Well, Drakes are used in fleet blobs. Totally true. But now take it one step further and ask "WHY?" Why not a Myrmidon? Perhaps because Drake tank is passive, and Myrm tank is active? Or perhaps because Myrm is armor and Drake is shield? Or perhaps because it takes 6 clicks for Myrmidon to bring its armaments to bear, while it takes a Drake 1 click to bring 95% of its DPS online? Is it heavy missile and range issue? Or it could be any permutation of the above, including all of the above.
Bottom line, in a balanced game, there would be an equal likelihood of Drake or Myrm being chosen for a fleet doctrine. Ideally, they would be used roughly the same amount of the time. Regardless of reasons why. Sure Myrm is great for some things. But when those things happen rarely, a pilot ONLY trained for Myrm is **** out of luck, while a pilot who chose the Drake is sitting pretty. And that's not balance. And the reason for this imbalance is not the ships, it's the USABILITY of these ships, their real-life applications.
Same with Tengu and Proteus. Is Proteus bad? Heck no. It's just Tengu has a heck of a lot more applications. So most pilots training for a T3 go for a Tengu. And stats reflect that. Which means something's gotta change. Otherwise the game is an imbalanced mess. |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
514
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:15:00 -
[209] - Quote
The Tristan would get used in Faction Warfare. I'd guarantee it.
A popular tactic right now among the Minmatar is to shove 4+ cormorants into a minor plex. They sit on the button 60km away and snipe and kite anything that comes into the minor plex. You usually need 3-1 odds to shove them off the button and it normally isn't worth th exchange. So you can get your own cormorants (yawn) OR in the future you can take in sensor boosted Tristans loaded with a Warden II. It might be niche but I can completely see a use for it. |
Lili Lu
343
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:16:00 -
[210] - Quote
Actually in thinking about the dev posts and what the balancing team is doing i wonder whether the problem isn't as simple as focusing balancing on 1v1 basis (and even there the recent changes fail). Eve is not a 1v1 game. You have dedicated tacklers, lachesis and huggins, immobilizing targets for drakes sitting at safe range, and other frigs for kiting frigs.
For frigs you have little ehp and thus somtimes you don't even need tackle so you can shoot from outside point range with some ships. Kite and the other guy keeps thinking I'm gaining once i catch him he's toast oops i'm losing too much hp better warp out darn waited too long . . . Or I have him pointed but not gaining fast enough to bring the blasters into range boom kited to death again.
And drones get lost in the movement of a fight. I don't think this present balancing team (like the others before it) understands the diffiulites inherent in drones. They seem to be focused on the dps potential and not the actual mechanics as they play out such as travel time to target, clumsy interface, destructibility, etc etc
THese threads make me |
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Lili Lu
343
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:20:00 -
[211] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The Tristan would get used in Faction Warfare. I'd guarantee it.
A popular tactic right now among the Minmatar is to shove 4+ cormorants into a minor plex. They sit on the button 60km away and snipe and kite anything that comes into the minor plex. You usually need 3-1 odds to shove them off the button and it normally isn't worth th exchange. So you can get your own cormorants (yawn) OR in the future you can take in sensor boosted Tristans loaded with a Warden II. It might be niche but I can completely see a use for it. Unfortunately the Cormorants would still win because with each tristan that's popped the warden means squat anymore. Also, the deployment time on the wardens will lose to the preclicked guns just waiting for a single clickable target on overview. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
520
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:28:00 -
[212] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Repair paste on drones: I like that idea, maybe someday (no promises).
.
OMG THATS AWESOME...
I would be soo damn happy if you did this... like OMG!
think about it racalling drones back in the day was a real skill... it was the reason why people said gal were the kings of solo pvp but also the hardest to master...
it could be tricky to change the mechanics...
but what i would do is once the drone is in the drone bay it interpreted as a moduel... and all its damage gets converted to be like heat damage on a mod... that way it might be easier to for programing to actually repair them...
also you could tier the drones for repair time... even go all the way up to fighters and fighter bombers...
I understand that you guys probs cant fit this into the winter realease... but perhaps the 1.1 or even 1.2 hell i could wait untill the next summer realease... but for the love of g-d DO IT!!!! Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
410
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:34:00 -
[213] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote: That's the issue with drones. Drones are, in a way, just ammo
You should be able to put drones from a cargo container or a wreck into your drone bay. Dropping a container is a slow process so it's not like you could "hot swap" drones in the middle of a fight. Solves the problems you have with resupplying drones on a roam while also keeps them from being OP and too flexible during a fight. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1066
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:37:00 -
[214] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote: Bottom line, in a balanced game, there would be an equal likelihood of Drake or Myrm being chosen for a fleet doctrine. Ideally, they would be used roughly the same amount of the time. Regardless of reasons why. Sure Myrm is great for some things. But when those things happen rarely, a pilot ONLY trained for Myrm is **** out of luck, while a pilot who chose the Drake is sitting pretty. And that's not balance. And the reason for this imbalance is not the ships, it's the USABILITY of these ships, their real-life applications.
Same with Tengu and Proteus. Is Proteus bad? Heck no. It's just Tengu has a heck of a lot more applications. So most pilots training for a T3 go for a Tengu. And stats reflect that. Which means something's gotta change. Otherwise the game is an imbalanced mess.
Achieving that kind of balance would simply mean that all ships are the same, just with different names and graphics. No differences in weapon systems, fitting options or piloting styles. In other words, the worst possible game ever.
EVE has a rich and varied selection of different ships, suitable for different tasks. You can train any ship you want to fly, and it's probably best to choose them to suit the intended use.
For optimal experience, pick a thing you want to do, pick the best ships for that, max your skills and spend time learning to fly that limited selection of ships.
Take for example your Tengu vs. Proteus pair. Tengu is a great carebear boat for wormhole PVE. Proteus roflstomps it in wormhole PVP. Drake vs Myrm? Sure, Drake is way better in fleets. Myrm eats it 1vs1.
Why change this? You want to press F1 in a Drake blob? Train Drake. You want to go for a balls to the wall solo lowsec roam? Train Myrm. Or Cane. Or whatever you like so much, that you are willing to put in the hours to make it work.
Balance means that each and every ship is viable choice for something, and this is what CCP is doing with tiericide.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
410
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:39:00 -
[215] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The Tristan would get used in Faction Warfare. I'd guarantee it.
A popular tactic right now among the Minmatar is to shove 4+ cormorants into a minor plex. They sit on the button 60km away and snipe and kite anything that comes into the minor plex. You usually need 3-1 odds to shove them off the button and it normally isn't worth th exchange. So you can get your own cormorants (yawn) OR in the future you can take in sensor boosted Tristans loaded with a Warden II. It might be niche but I can completely see a use for it. I was going to suggest sniper drone maulus. The corms would just burn away from the Wardens. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
134
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 15:49:00 -
[216] - Quote
Roime wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote: Bottom line, in a balanced game, there would be an equal likelihood of Drake or Myrm being chosen for a fleet doctrine. Ideally, they would be used roughly the same amount of the time. Regardless of reasons why. Sure Myrm is great for some things. But when those things happen rarely, a pilot ONLY trained for Myrm is **** out of luck, while a pilot who chose the Drake is sitting pretty. And that's not balance. And the reason for this imbalance is not the ships, it's the USABILITY of these ships, their real-life applications.
Same with Tengu and Proteus. Is Proteus bad? Heck no. It's just Tengu has a heck of a lot more applications. So most pilots training for a T3 go for a Tengu. And stats reflect that. Which means something's gotta change. Otherwise the game is an imbalanced mess.
Achieving that kind of balance would simply mean that all ships are the same, just with different names and graphics. No differences in weapon systems, fitting options or piloting styles. In other words, the worst possible game ever. EVE has a rich and varied selection of different ships, suitable for different tasks. You can train any ship you want to fly, and it's probably best to choose them to suit the intended use. For optimal experience, pick a thing you want to do, pick the best ships for that, max your skills and spend time learning to fly that limited selection of ships. Take for example your Tengu vs. Proteus pair. Tengu is a great carebear boat for wormhole PVE. Proteus roflstomps it in wormhole PVP. Drake vs Myrm? Sure, Drake is way better in fleets. Myrm eats it 1vs1. Why change this? You want to press F1 in a Drake blob? Train Drake. You want to go for a balls to the wall solo lowsec roam? Train Myrm. Or Cane. Or whatever you like so much, that you are willing to put in the hours to make it work. Balance means that each and every ship is viable choice for something, and this is what CCP is doing with tiericide.
Uh what solo pvp are you doing? How do you catch a kiting Drake or 100MN Tengu with your Myrmidon or Proteus? Please enlighten me.
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1050
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:15:00 -
[217] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Which makes me again ask you guys whether you care about the lopsided eve-kill stats and your own internal stats about module activations. It's all drakes, tengus, and heavy missiles. It has been this way for years now and appears to be getting worse since the introduction of asbs.
I posted a thread in the test server subforum asking ytterbioum to reconsider the one plodding step at a time approach. There are tweaks you can do as interim measures to try to combat the combat hegemony that is the present Drakes and Tengus Online (and at the smaller ship level (merlin, cormorant, hookbill, condor, griffin, etc) eve.
As for your frig rebalancing it seems things will only get worse. You are setting caldari up as the only and far away blessed for it long range ships. Noone else it seems is getting any niche ship there. Then caldari is also getting close range possibilities as well. The top 20 (yeah i keep citing it because it's about the only statistical tool we have, but i know you have more available to you) is now dominated by caldari and minmatar shield tanking ships.
A ridiculous 70km kestrel will just be another addition to the ongoing trends. Light missiles need the slight damage buff you are giving them, but the ships that use them do not need a 10% range bonus. The only way that even could be palatable would be if you give TDs a missile flight time reduction effect. Then tds would become a mandatory mod. But they are already being used by caldari ships to **** over gallente ships as it is and at the frigate level. You could reduce the missile flight time skill to 5% per level as well. Rockets will still be usable for what they should be which is close range weapons.
Kiting is where it's at in eve atm. The tristan will not be able to do it as you have it presently configured. The kestrel will.
Drakes and Tengus are a balance problem at the moment, believe me when I say we understand that.
But if anything I feel we need to rely less on eve-wide module and ship stats like those available on eve-kill or in our more accurate internal tools. We can track every single module activation in eve but there's a big difference between having those numbers and understanding them. Context matters much more and if you were to rely too much on those numbers you might for instance think that the Talos needs a huge buff (which is obviously not true when you step back from the numbers).
I heartily disagree that 70km Kestrels are going to become some kind of gameplay juggernaut. Some people will find cool uses for them but delayed damage frigate bombardment is simply not close to being too powerful.
I also completely understand the difference between 1v1 combat and small fleets. I simply mentioned 1v1s because it was an area we had been able to get some very good testing in so far and an area where the Tristan excelled (if it was as good for fleets as it is in 1v1s we'd have to hit it with a giant nerf bat). We build our ships with a bunch of use cases in mind, and once we get the testing opened up to more people we'll be able to get even better feedback on those areas. |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1895
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:18:00 -
[218] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote: Uh what solo pvp are you doing? How do you catch a kiting Drake or 100MN Tengu with your Myrmidon or Proteus? Please enlighten me.
The Proteus can do it, but the Myrm can't. The best ship for the job is the Zealot, Loki, and Talos.
-Liang
Ed: I mean, for solo killing the boosted 100mn tengu. Not simply for catching it. That's easy. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1895
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:20:00 -
[219] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Drakes and Tengus are a balance problem at the moment, believe me when I say we understand that.
But if anything I feel we need to rely less on eve-wide module and ship stats like those available on eve-kill or in our more accurate internal tools. We can track every single module activation in eve but there's a big difference between having those numbers and understanding them. Context matters much more and if you were to rely too much on those numbers you might for instance think that the Talos needs a huge buff (which is obviously not true when you step back from the numbers).
I heartily disagree that 70km Kestrels are going to become some kind of gameplay juggernaut. Some people will find cool uses for them but delayed damage frigate bombardment is simply not close to being too powerful.
I also completely understand the difference between 1v1 combat and small fleets. I simply mentioned 1v1s because it was an area we had been able to get some very good testing in so far and an area where the Tristan excelled (if it was as good for fleets as it is in 1v1s we'd have to hit it with a giant nerf bat). We build our ships with a bunch of use cases in mind, and once we get the testing opened up to more people we'll be able to get even better feedback on those areas.
While I really love that you understand the difference between raw stats and the application of them... but can you please boost the Talos more? It's not... powerful enough. And the Oracle too! Heh, heh, heh. MUAHAHAHAHA!!!
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
253
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:22:00 -
[220] - Quote
Roime wrote:Achieving that kind of balance would simply mean that all ships are the same, just with different names and graphics. No differences in weapon systems, fitting options or piloting styles. In other words, the worst possible game ever.
It's hard, I'll give you that. But it's not impossible. And it does not require all ships to be the same.
It requires that each race has ships that can perform well in any given task with any given weapon. The problem is, such balance does not end with hulls, it includes weapons, movement and all the modules and skills.
For example, consider Minmatar artillery and Gallente rails. In theory, they should perform the same task - instant damage at long range. Only artillery is used far more than rails. Why? Simple. High alpha on artillery, steady DPS but low alpha on rails.
With artillery, the first salvo might just pop the target, which also negates any possibility of repair to the damaged ship. It goes from 100% to 0% in a second. Boom, gone. There are other considerations as well, for example artillery fires cap-free, rails require capacitor. Rails have higher ROF, which means they use more ammo. Which in turn means a ship has to both carry more ammo and will expend more ammo (and thus more ISK) for the same result. Now, rails, on paper, have the advantage of having longer range than artillery. But in practice, with probing the way it is, this advantage is nullified.
Add all of this together, and artillery is a clear winner over rails. And that is what most people use. And that is what EVEKill reflects as well.
Look, people aren't stupid. This is the same mechanic used in other games. I'll take it from the above example I made of rogue/mage/priest in WoW. Part of the reason 80% of top-rated teams had that composition is high burst. When a rogue ambushes you from stealth, it is the equivalent of the artillery salvo. When a mage pops a cooldown that makes the next cast instant, and fires a huge nuke, it is once again an equivalent of artillery salvo. These together have the potential to drop any one target in one hit, before the healer (logistics) ,if any, has a chance to react. Boom, 3v3 is now 3v2.
Now consider a warlock class, which is high damage at range, same as mage, but done with DoTs (Damage Over Time), the same issue as rails. While they do the same DPS, and from higher range, in practice range is too easy to negate (same as in EVE) and a slow steady steam of DPS (high ROF, medium damage, low alpha) is very easily countered by any healer with HoT (Heal Over Time). And once again, people are not stupid. And warlocks were one of the lesser represented classes for exactly that reason (and several others).
Quote:EVE has a rich and varied selection of different ships, suitable for different tasks. You can train any ship you want to fly, and it's probably best to choose them to suit the intended use.
Problem is in training time. If I chose "wrong", like for example choosing Gallente hulls and drone skills, when the latest fleet doctrine dictates shield tank and missiles with Caldari hulls, I am **** out of luck. If Gallente had hulls that were a match for Drake - same applies DPS but via a different but BALANCED weapon system, and comparable mobility with armor tank, then perhaps. They wouldn't be same - they would be different but equal.
I mean, let's face it, even if you look at tanks alone, there's already a huge imbalance. One can be passive, the other cannot, not without logistics/repair costs. One gives the bonus at beginning of cycle, one at the end. One has major penalties (armor, rigs), the other does not (or at least not as pronounced). Shields recently got ASB, which we all know is bull****. Armor got a weak weird EANM that is in no way, shape or form comparable. It is, simply put, not balanced. And, and I know I said it before, people are NOT stupid. Which is why we see ASB used way, way, WAY more than whatever that new armor module is called. It is an unbalanced mechanic, and people are (ab)using it to their heart's content.
Quote:For optimal experience, pick a thing you want to do, pick the best ships for that, max your skills and spend time learning to fly that limited selection of ships.
Pick one, but based on what? For example, when I was starting the game and doing the Gallente tutorial, I was told that Gallente are drone kings. And that drones are Gallente racial weapon, same as projectiles for Minmatar or missiles for Caldari. That was...mmm...how shall I put it nicely...not entirely accurate? At best, a Gallente drone boat is a split weapon system of hybrids/drones.There are no frigate/destroyer drone boats, despite it being a racial weapon. Etc., etc.Based on information available to me at the time, I made the right choice. The information was wrong, or at best misleading.
Quote:Take for example your Tengu vs. Proteus pair. Tengu is a great carebear boat for wormhole PVE. Proteus roflstomps it in wormhole PVP. Drake vs Myrm? Sure, Drake is way better in fleets. Myrm eats it 1vs1. Why change this?
Isn't it obvious? Because if I trained for a Myrm, I can't participate in fleets. And if I didn't train for Tengu, I can't carebear it up in wormhole PvE (or at least not as well). There should be ships in Gallente lineup that do fleets as well as Drake, and ships in Gallente lineup that do WH PvE as well as Tengu.
Otherwise CCP has to re-do the tutorials once again, and tell you players "if you want to PvP, go Winmatar. If you want fleet blobs, go Caldari. Etc., etc." Which, let's face it, is not going to happen. Though it's not such a bad idea, close to "class choice" in other MMOs. You don't make a warrior expecting to do ranged DPS. You are given an honest up-front description of what you're getting into. |
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Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
322
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:34:00 -
[221] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Bottom line, in a balanced game, there would be an equal likelihood of Drake or Myrm being chosen for a fleet doctrine. Ideally, they would be used roughly the same amount of the time.
No. You have implicitly assumed that a balanced game requires all BCs to be equal in the attributes that are favoured in fleet combat. Or you've assumed that fleet combat is the only PVP, either works. Ships with good EHP and damage projection are inherently better suited to fleets. A drone-gun BC such as the Myrmidon can never hope to have the damage projection capabilities of a missile BC - and if it did, then there wouldn't be much point to the missile BC.
The more appropriate environment for the Myrm is solo and small-scale combat, as these favour its drones, high-but-poorly-projected DPS and rep bonus, so seek to balance the Myrm here, not in fleet. Does the Hurricane have too much of an advantage over the Myrm at this level? If the Hurricane is also supposed to be focused here, is it justified that it also has its own fleet doctrine? It's also arguable that the Drake is too good at small-scale combat, given its competence at the fleet level. But this criticism can just as easily be applied to the Hurricane too. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1895
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:38:00 -
[222] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Bottom line, in a balanced game, there would be an equal likelihood of Drake or Myrm being chosen for a fleet doctrine. Ideally, they would be used roughly the same amount of the time. No. You have implicitly assumed that a balanced game requires all BCs to be equal in the attributes that are favoured in fleet combat. Or you've assumed that fleet combat is the only PVP, either works. Ships with good EHP and damage projection are inherently better suited to fleets. A drone-gun BC such as the Myrmidon can never hope to have the damage projection capabilities of a missile BC - and if it did, then there wouldn't be much point to the missile BC. The more appropriate environment for the Myrm is solo and small-scale combat, as these favour its drones, high-but-poorly-projected DPS and rep bonus, so seek to balance the Myrm here, not in fleet. Does the Hurricane have too much of an advantage over the Myrm at this level? If the Hurricane is also supposed to be focused here, is it justified that it also has its own fleet doctrine? It's also arguable that the Drake is too good at small-scale combat, given its competence at the fleet level. But this criticism can just as easily be applied to the Hurricane too.
The new drone changes makes the Myrm do 1100 DPS with a super respectable tank. It's arguably better than it's ever been. I think things have been changing so fast that it's hard to properly conceptualize where the real balance lies and what parts the metagame will adjust to first.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
322
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:51:00 -
[223] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The new drone changes makes the Myrm do 1100 DPS with a super respectable tank. It's arguably better than it's ever been. I think things have been changing so fast that it's hard to properly conceptualize where the real balance lies and what parts the metagame will adjust to first.
-Liang
It's a fair point, it always takes a good few months before things really settle down, and the rate of change recently has been much higher than in recent years, and the boosts to drone damage, blasters, null and Gallente mobility have all added up for the Myrm.
I'll be very interested to see what does get proposed for the Drake though. While I criticised Jame's methodology, it wasn't my intention to defend the Drake also, even on the fleet level - it is too popular there. But how? The old idea of changing it to missile velocity and ROF will never work and there's little point in balancing the fleet Drake/Tengu if all the fleet Drake pilots immediately just jump into Hurricanes. I don't envy CCP tbh. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1896
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:56:00 -
[224] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:The new drone changes makes the Myrm do 1100 DPS with a super respectable tank. It's arguably better than it's ever been. I think things have been changing so fast that it's hard to properly conceptualize where the real balance lies and what parts the metagame will adjust to first.
-Liang It's a fair point, it always takes a good few months before things really settle down, and the rate of change recently has been much higher than in recent years, and the boosts to drone damage, blasters, null and Gallente mobility have all added up for the Myrm. I'll be very interested to see what does get proposed for the Drake though. While I criticised Jame's methodology, it wasn't my intention to defend the Drake also, even on the fleet level - it is too popular there. But how? The old idea of changing it to missile velocity and ROF will never work and there's little point in balancing the fleet Drake/Tengu if all the fleet Drake pilots immediately just jump into Hurricanes. I don't envy CCP tbh.
I wasn't intended to defend or attack any particular ship. I just don't care what gets boosted anymore because I can quite literally fly it all with fantastic skills. Just pointing out that everyone should be a bit careful with assertions that X is a bad ship or an overpowered ship. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
253
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 17:00:00 -
[225] - Quote
Dear Fozzie,
I haven't said it before, but it's really amazing and refreshing to see this kind of communication going. This is very, very rare sight. Please don't stop, even when we're a little mean.
Quote:Context matters much more and if you were to rely too much on those numbers you might for instance think that the Talos needs a huge buff (which is obviously not true when you step back from the numbers).
That's a good point, but perhaps when the ship itself doesn't need a buff, the role it is meant to perform could use a buff of its own? If a ship is to perform a specific function, but nobody uses it for that function even though the ship is fine, that suggests the function may be broken. Like stealth bombers right being used to blitz L4s in FW. It's clearly not their intended purpose, and yet it's been like this for a very, very long time now with no fixes to bombers or FW missions.
Quote:I also completely understand the difference between 1v1 combat and small fleets. I simply mentioned 1v1s because it was an area we had been able to get some very good testing in so far and an area where the Tristan excelled (if it was as good for fleets as it is in 1v1s we'd have to hit it with a giant nerf bat). We build our ships with a bunch of use cases in mind, and once we get the testing opened up to more people we'll be able to get even better feedback on those areas.
OK, so Tristan is good in 1v1, and not as good in fleets. Not consider this, with data available, which happens more often - 1v1s or NvN (gang, fleet, etc.) fights? In a game where most fights are NvN, a ship that excels in 1v1 is meaningless, because it will constantly encounter 1v2, 1v3, 1v4...2v1, 2v2, 2v3...NvN. That's the example where intended role (1v1 dominance) does not make the ship desirable because the situation in which the ship shines happens once in a blue moon. Just because a test case exists, it doesn't mean it occurs often.
Besides the frequency of the event for which the ship is designed, you should also consider the importance of this event. Typically, a 1v1 is meaningless, except to the people involved. And when the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" doctrine is followed, the event IS meaningless. While a fleet fight can be of critical importance (0.0, sov, etc.) Thus, a race that has the most hulls suitable for fleet action is at a huge advantage over a race that does not, forcing that race's pilots to cross train. Which sets them back, in real time, by many months. All these things must be considered.
And then we'll still end up looking at usability as well. When Ship A performs its function with 1 click (passive shield tank, no split weapons) while Ship B requires half a dozen or more clicks (active tank, split weapons, micromanagement of drones) to perform the same function, that makes ship B obsolete by design. Even if ship B will totally spank ship A in some obscure scenario that hardly ever happens, ship B is still obsolete. Even if ship B spanks ship A in half of the scenarios, adjusted by frequency of those scenarios and their relative importance, ship B is STILL obsolete because your win/loss is 50/50 but the amount of work you do is 6x higher, and this probability of user error leading to a loss is significantly higher as well.
I may be asking too much, but that's just the way I feel about the whole thing. Currently EVE is suffering from a "Frankenstein syndrome". It is a patchwork of bits and pieces, design decisions that at the time may have been valid but just no longer apply. Like changing the drone boat bonus from giving extra drones (beyond 5) to drone bonuses? Made perfect sense back in the day when lag was the deciding factor, but now with time dilation is it still mandatory for the 5-drone maximum to remain? Probably not. Yet, here it is, and we keep getting split weapons. |
Lili Lu
343
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 17:08:00 -
[226] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Drakes and Tengus are a balance problem at the moment, believe me when I say we understand that.
But if anything I feel we need to rely less on eve-wide module and ship stats like those available on eve-kill or in our more accurate internal tools. We can track every single module activation in eve but there's a big difference between having those numbers and understanding them. Context matters much more and if you were to rely too much on those numbers you might for instance think that the Talos needs a huge buff (which is obviously not true when you step back from the numbers). Thanks for responding here. I hope you look at my post in the ewar frigs thread.
You say you know Drakes and Tengus are a problem. But you continue to let it fester in the game. Are we going to have to endure another year or more of it?
I don't think I brought up the Talos at all. But since you mention it why is the Naga range bonus 10% and the Talos tracking bonus 7.5% ? Is that 10% range bonus needed? No. Rails are already the longest range guns. What it does do is exagerate the sniping disparity. Why do you slap such large bonuses on all caldari ships? 10% range bonuses, 30% ecm bonuses, etc. on top of the already longest range weapon systems and best ewar. Other races have to live with 5% most of the time, and compensatory bonuses like the 10% laser cap use reduction.
CCP Fozzie wrote: I heartily disagree that 70km Kestrels are going to become some kind of gameplay juggernaut. Some people will find cool uses for them but delayed damage frigate bombardment is simply not close to being too powerful.
I also completely understand the difference between 1v1 combat and small fleets. I simply mentioned 1v1s because it was an area we had been able to get some very good testing in so far and an area where the Tristan excelled (if it was as good for fleets as it is in 1v1s we'd have to hit it with a giant nerf bat). We build our ships with a bunch of use cases in mind, and once we get the testing opened up to more people we'll be able to get even better feedback on those areas.
You have not answered the posts about sentry drone impracticability (talk about niche "cool uses" that won't lead to op status). Also, I don't know what was wrong with your 1v1 testing because killing drones is rather easy. And continuing to short the tristan a slot is a big mistake.
As for 70km kestrels they will get a lot of use just like ridiculous range sniper cormorants do in fw and low sec fighting. It won't be a novelty. Have you read Chatgris' posts or XGallentius" posts? These guys fight in lowsec/fw all the time and know what they are talking about. Light missile delayed damage is less than heavy or cruise missile delayed damage. It won't detract much from their use.
Please rethink what you are doing. Give some range bonuses to other races. Do not try to constuct this game as, if you want to fight close range you have to go Gallente and if long range you have to go Caldari. Even at that you are not hitting the mark by allowing those Caldari ships to engage close range because they have resist bonuses and op ASBs to enable that tactic.
When I first started this game in 2006 it was probably Gallente on top, Amarr in the shitter. It is now all Caldari and Minmatar and has been for a long time. Can you please start mixing things up some and enabling roles for all races even if you want to preserve thematic differences to an extent, which I agree with. Please do something to fix the shield superiority we presently have in the game. Do start addressing mods and not just ships. And please do find some immediate things you could do to address these problems. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
255
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 17:12:00 -
[227] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Bottom line, in a balanced game, there would be an equal likelihood of Drake or Myrm being chosen for a fleet doctrine. Ideally, they would be used roughly the same amount of the time. No. You have implicitly assumed that a balanced game requires all BCs to be equal in the attributes that are favoured in fleet combat.
Not necessarily! Fleet doctrine is not necessarily a singular approach. There could be multiple, equally viable fleet doctrines that favour multiple combat mechanics.
For example, there are drone boats. Ideally there would be a fleet doctrine that favours drone boats. For example, a bunch of spider-tanking Dominixes. But it won't work. Because a few ships with smartbombs will completely decimate these ships' ability to do damage.
To address the issue, drones themselves could be tweaked. For example, Caldari drones could be changed to use missiles or rails, and do so from range that is outside of the largest smartbomb range. They would still be caught (orbiting ship A, getting hit by ship B's smartbomb while passing by), but it wouldn't be a sure-fire thing.
Sentries were designed to alleviate this problem, but they don't work due to their immobility. If they were outfitted with Micro Jump Drives, and could return to the ship that dropped them, they would instantly become viable.
Quote:The more appropriate environment for the Myrm is solo and small-scale combat, as these favour its drones, high-but-poorly-projected DPS and rep bonus, so seek to balance the Myrm here, not in fleet. Does the Hurricane have too much of an advantage over the Myrm at this level? If the Hurricane is also supposed to be focused here, is it justified that it also has its own fleet doctrine? It's also arguable that the Drake is too good at small-scale combat, given its competence at the fleet level. But this criticism can just as easily be applied to the Hurricane too.
See, this works and it's not much of a problem to an older player. But to a new player, these mechanics are crippling or fatal (player simply quits).
Like I mentioned before, suppose I go Gallente. I end up with a Myrm. Now suppose I want fleet PvP, because that's where I ended up (joined a friend's corp, for example). And this corp is part of the alliance, and the doctrine is Drakes. What am I to do? Train for Drake from absolute zero (no shield tank, no missile skills, Caldari hulls at zero)? A new player at this point has a choice - face months of training to be useful, or do something else. And doing something else when the whole corp is cheering on vent about how great a fleet engagement is going is hard. And while technically you can participate in a frigate or something, performing some minor role, it's just not the same. It's one of the things that keeps EVE's population so low. Yes, I said low. 450k divided by an average 2-3 alt accounts per player is not that much, UO had that many in 2003.
Anyway, I'm going to stop now because I think I'm veering off on a tangent here away from combat frigates. |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 17:13:00 -
[228] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Lili Lu wrote:Which makes me again ask you guys whether you care about the lopsided eve-kill stats and your own internal stats about module activations. It's all drakes, tengus, and heavy missiles. It has been this way for years now and appears to be getting worse since the introduction of asbs.
I posted a thread in the test server subforum asking ytterbioum to reconsider the one plodding step at a time approach. There are tweaks you can do as interim measures to try to combat the combat hegemony that is the present Drakes and Tengus Online (and at the smaller ship level (merlin, cormorant, hookbill, condor, griffin, etc) eve.
As for your frig rebalancing it seems things will only get worse. You are setting caldari up as the only and far away blessed for it long range ships. Noone else it seems is getting any niche ship there. Then caldari is also getting close range possibilities as well. The top 20 (yeah i keep citing it because it's about the only statistical tool we have, but i know you have more available to you) is now dominated by caldari and minmatar shield tanking ships.
A ridiculous 70km kestrel will just be another addition to the ongoing trends. Light missiles need the slight damage buff you are giving them, but the ships that use them do not need a 10% range bonus. The only way that even could be palatable would be if you give TDs a missile flight time reduction effect. Then tds would become a mandatory mod. But they are already being used by caldari ships to **** over gallente ships as it is and at the frigate level. You could reduce the missile flight time skill to 5% per level as well. Rockets will still be usable for what they should be which is close range weapons.
Kiting is where it's at in eve atm. The tristan will not be able to do it as you have it presently configured. The kestrel will. I was going to use Merlins, Condors, and Kestrels in my 1v1's with Fozzie. Thanks for spoling my plan! He would have lost every match!
oh trust me in my in corp frig fights my 50km sniper kestral has never lost infact i dont think its ever been dmged however i will say that even though the merlin i went up against couldnt catch me as i was to fast the missles on tech 1 (as all mods had to be tech 1) wasnt able to break his tank either. |
Vakr Onzo
Elite Amarr Navy Academy
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 17:13:00 -
[229] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Iand the Talos tracking bonus 7.5% ? Is that 10% range bonus needed? No. Rails are already the longest range guns. What it does do is exagerate the sniping disparity. Why do you slap such large bonuses on all caldari ships? 10% range bonuses, 30% ecm bonuses, etc. on top of the already longest range weapon systems and best ewar. Other races live with 5% most of the time, and compensatory bonuses like the 10% laser cap use reduction. Hrm. The more bonus range you give to the railguns, the better the Damage Charges are (aka the More Damage/Less Range type). Also it would improve the blaster range as well. Hm. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1896
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 17:16:00 -
[230] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote: For example, there are drone boats. Ideally there would be a fleet doctrine that favours drone boats. For example, a bunch of spider-tanking Dominixes. But it won't work. Because a few ships with smartbombs will completely decimate these ships' ability to do damage.
The problem isn't smart bombs... it's bombs. But is that really a problem?
Quote: Like I mentioned before, suppose I go Gallente. I end up with a Myrm. Now suppose I want fleet PvP, because that's where I ended up (joined a friend's corp, for example). And this corp is part of the alliance, and the doctrine is Drakes. What am I to do? Train for Drake from absolute zero (no shield tank, no missile skills, Caldari hulls at zero)? A new player at this point has a choice - face months of training to be useful, or do something else. And doing something else when the whole corp is cheering on vent about how great a fleet engagement is going is hard. And while technically you can participate in a frigate or something, performing some minor role, it's just not the same. It's one of the things that keeps EVE's population so low. Yes, I said low. 450k divided by an average 2-3 alt accounts per player is not that much, UO had that many in 2003.
There's no guarantee that your FC would even choose to field the spider tanking sentry domi fleet, even if it were viable. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
374
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 17:32:00 -
[231] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Bottom line, in a balanced game, there would be an equal likelihood of Drake or Myrm being chosen for a fleet doctrine. Ideally, they would be used roughly the same amount of the time. No. You have implicitly assumed that a balanced game requires all BCs to be equal in the attributes that are favoured in fleet combat. Not necessarily! Fleet doctrine is not necessarily a singular approach. There could be multiple, equally viable fleet doctrines that favour multiple combat mechanics.
I'm with you on this one. Generally speaking, there is no tactical advantage to bringing a close range fleet. Kiting as tactic is overwhelmingly favored in EVE at the moment due to a variety of factors. Ships that don't lend themselves to kiting or to deal with kiting are just considered bad.
The frigate level fortunately is much less affected by this so there's much more variety. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
410
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 20:16:00 -
[232] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:OK, so Tristan is good in 1v1, and not as good in fleets. Where is the Gallente combat fleet frigate? Certainly not the Incursus. The Atron? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1898
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 20:35:00 -
[233] - Quote
I'm telling you: Atron/Navitas fleets are going to destroy the world.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
245
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 20:42:00 -
[234] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.
/shrug
-Liang
Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do.
I dont really see how what the average player does should have anything to do with balance. The average player is very bad. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
245
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 20:43:00 -
[235] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Like I mentioned before, suppose I go Gallente. I end up with a Myrm. Now suppose I want fleet PvP, because that's where I ended up (joined a friend's corp, for example). And this corp is part of the alliance, and the doctrine is Drakes. What am I to do? Train for Drake from absolute zero (no shield tank, no missile skills, Caldari hulls at zero)? A new player at this point has a choice - face months of training to be useful, or do something else. And doing something else when the whole corp is cheering on vent about how great a fleet engagement is going is hard. And while technically you can participate in a frigate or something, performing some minor role, it's just not the same. It's one of the things that keeps EVE's population so low. Yes, I said low. 450k divided by an average 2-3 alt accounts per player is not that much, UO had that many in 2003.
Anyway, I'm going to stop now because I think I'm veering off on a tangent here away from combat frigates.
If your corp if flying nanodrakes, you can fly a neut myrm as heavy tackle/antitackle. If your corp is flying brawling drakes, you can fly a normal goddamn myrm.
Myrms are the most versatile bc and will fit into pretty much any gang. |
PinkKnife
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
194
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 21:00:00 -
[236] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Laser cap use bonus on Amarr ships: The original design of lasers was that they essentially had a built in damage bonus, being more powerful in base damage than any other weapon system. In the time since launch however that specific damage advantage has diluted somewhat, as most of the buffs lasers received over the years were to tracking. Pulse lasers tend to have good damage and excellent range for short range guns, and Beams have good damage, fair range and excellent tracking compared to other long range options. There are a lot of Amarr ships that need help, as well as many that are working well. Certain problems are tied to the weapons themselves, for instance fittings on small lasers need help and many of the problems with beams are tied to the weapons. That being said I do not think the solution to the problem is to build the cap use bonus back into the guns. The high cap use is a defining feature of lasers, helps create interesting player decisions on Amarr ships, and I believe it provides us more balance tools than it removes. There's a lot we need to fix with many Amarr ships, but I do not currently expect that the solution is going to be removing the cap use bonuses across the board.
.
Really? Just for once, take a look at the effective range of a Hurricane and compare it to the dps and effective range of a Harbinger.
For a turret that is supposed to have a built in damage bonus Energy turrets are laughable at best given the insane requirements to fit them properly. Don't even get me started on the literal dozens of threads on how completely broken Tachyons are.
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1898
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 21:09:00 -
[237] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote: Really? Just for once, take a look at the effective range of a Hurricane and compare it to the dps and effective range of a Harbinger.
For a turret that is supposed to have a built in damage bonus Energy turrets are laughable at best given the insane requirements to fit them properly. Don't even get me started on the literal dozens of threads on how completely broken Tachyons are.
Did... did you just say that a Harbinger has laughable effective range next to a Harbinger?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Lili Lu
343
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 21:13:00 -
[238] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Anyway, I'm going to stop now because I think I'm veering off on a tangent here away from combat frigates.
If your corp if flying nanodrakes, you can fly a neut myrm as heavy tackle/antitackle. If your corp is flying brawling drakes, you can fly a normal goddamn myrm. Myrms are the most versatile bc and will fit into pretty much any gang. To stay off-topic ~ I've tried that nano neut anti-tackle rationale with different FCs. It gets shot down more than it gets grudging acceptance. As for the "normal goddamn myrm" never tried that because I don't know how you could convince anyone with it.
OIC, you said corp gang, not alliance fleet. Nevermind.
Regardless, it's no fun to always have to convince an FC that your drone ship can help the fleet in the face of why don't you just train and fly the easy kiting missile ship instead. And realistically you are arguing from an individualistic perspective, about fitting into a fleet doctrine. How many people can or will be granted exemptions ? |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
378
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 21:35:00 -
[239] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:
Really? Just for once, take a look at the effective range of a Hurricane and compare it to the dps and effective range of a Harbinger.
For a turret that is supposed to have a built in damage bonus Energy turrets are laughable at best given the insane requirements to fit them properly. Don't even get me started on the literal dozens of threads on how completely broken Tachyons are.
For fun, fit a Hurricane with a rack of 425mm ACs, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. Then fit a Harbinger with a rack of Focused Medium Pulse, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. See what damage projection graphs you get in EFT.
The Focused Medium Pulse take 16% more CPU than the 425mm ACs which in turn take 16% more PG then the lasers, so they're just about equivalent.
An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
245
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 21:43:00 -
[240] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:PinkKnife wrote:
Really? Just for once, take a look at the effective range of a Hurricane and compare it to the dps and effective range of a Harbinger.
For a turret that is supposed to have a built in damage bonus Energy turrets are laughable at best given the insane requirements to fit them properly. Don't even get me started on the literal dozens of threads on how completely broken Tachyons are.
For fun, fit a Hurricane with a rack of 425mm ACs, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. Then fit a Harbinger with a rack of Focused Medium Pulse, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. See what damage projection graphs you get in EFT. The Focused Medium Pulse take 16% more CPU than the 425mm ACs which in turn take 16% more PG then the lasers, so they're just about equivalent.
Fortunately, the harb in the same shield configuration as the cane can hit heavy pulses.
Oh, a cane with heavy pulse lasers outdamages a cane with autocannons at just under 23km. And it has 0 bonuses with lasers. |
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1898
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 21:47:00 -
[241] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:PinkKnife wrote:
Really? Just for once, take a look at the effective range of a Hurricane and compare it to the dps and effective range of a Harbinger.
For a turret that is supposed to have a built in damage bonus Energy turrets are laughable at best given the insane requirements to fit them properly. Don't even get me started on the literal dozens of threads on how completely broken Tachyons are.
For fun, fit a Hurricane with a rack of 425mm ACs, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. Then fit a Harbinger with a rack of Focused Medium Pulse, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. See what damage projection graphs you get in EFT. The Focused Medium Pulse take 16% more CPU than the 425mm ACs which in turn take 16% more PG then the lasers, so they're just about equivalent. Fortunately, the harb in the same shield configuration as the cane can hit heavy pulses. Oh, a cane with heavy pulse lasers outdamages a cane with autocannons at just under 23km. And it has 0 bonuses with lasers.
And even better is just how amazing lasers are at killing the new shield craze. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Karah Serrigan
The Hatchery Team Liquid
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 21:53:00 -
[242] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:PinkKnife wrote:
Really? Just for once, take a look at the effective range of a Hurricane and compare it to the dps and effective range of a Harbinger.
For a turret that is supposed to have a built in damage bonus Energy turrets are laughable at best given the insane requirements to fit them properly. Don't even get me started on the literal dozens of threads on how completely broken Tachyons are.
For fun, fit a Hurricane with a rack of 425mm ACs, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. Then fit a Harbinger with a rack of Focused Medium Pulse, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. See what damage projection graphs you get in EFT. The Focused Medium Pulse take 16% more CPU than the 425mm ACs which in turn take 16% more PG then the lasers, so they're just about equivalent. Fortunately, the harb in the same shield configuration as the cane can hit heavy pulses. Oh, a cane with heavy pulse lasers outdamages a cane with autocannons at just under 23km. And it has 0 bonuses with lasers. And even better is just how amazing lasers are at killing the new shield craze. :) -Liang except for t2 minmatar ships :(
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1898
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 22:00:00 -
[243] - Quote
Karah Serrigan wrote: except for t2 minmatar ships :(
Works fine: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29498
Hahbs managed to sneak into lock range right as the victim hit structure.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 22:17:00 -
[244] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote: That's the issue with drones. Drones are, in a way, just ammo
Like ammo, you should be able to put drones from a cargo container or a wreck into your drone bay. Dropping a container is a slow process so it's not like you could "hot swap" drones in the middle of a fight. Solves the problems you have with resupplying drones on a roam while also keeps them from being OP and too flexible during a fight.
This, especially in faction warfare it is a real problem when you lose drones. You could even make it like onlining an ofline module requiring 100% cap level so it is almost impossible during combat. Just let me safe up and swap some drones from cargo.
I still think the Tristan is light on CPU but a guess we will have to try it when it gets to the test server. |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 22:18:00 -
[245] - Quote
fozzie i never i8mplied that a 70km frigate would be any juggernaught or that they aint very nice as im olmost exclusively missles im just saying dont you think thats a little extreame especialy for a frigate. and that simply a kestral just has to operate in around the 55 mark upto around 60k max and that the kestral could beniffit from other things expecialy were something like rockets are a setup such as a shield that can take some punushment. |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
218
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 00:56:00 -
[246] - Quote
serras bang wrote:fozzie i never i8mplied that a 70km frigate would be any juggernaught or that they aint very nice as im olmost exclusively missles im just saying dont you think thats a little extreame especialy for a frigate. and that simply a kestral just has to operate in around the 55 mark upto around 60k max and that the kestral could beniffit from other things expecialy were something like rockets are a setup such as a shield that can take some punushment.
1. This bonus already exists on the Hookbill, which is a terrifying frig.
2. It allows the Kestrel to kite at long point range with rockets. |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 01:15:00 -
[247] - Quote
kestrals dont use point if stayed at max range other frigs are pritty much dead by time they burn into range. and that was before the new stats. i dont see the reasoning in extending the current range of the kestral missle boat unless there is going to be a gun platform that can match it i also dont see the point in this extream range if were all gonna recieve a multi platform frig that is specific to snipeing. |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 03:02:00 -
[248] - Quote
Hi. About this 'reloading drones' thing, allowing a lost drone to be replaced from the cargo by an identical drone would allow people to replace their losses on roams without providing the advantage of changing drone types without docking
I mean, if a Warrior II was lost, it could be replaced from the cargo with a Warrior II only
Allowing the pilot to change drone types in the bay during flight (from 5 Warriors to 5 ECM light drones in a 25m^3 bay) would be too good because it means people wouldn't have to make fitting sacrifices when it comes to drone bays. Make them dock up in a station for that sort of thing
I don't know if the 'not being able to replace losses' thing is a problem, but if it is, I think this would be the fairest solution
Maybe add a timer for it, like expedited transfer in PI, or disallow moving drones from the cargo while the ship is being locked |
John Nucleus
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 04:04:00 -
[249] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote: That's the issue with drones. Drones are, in a way, just ammo
Like ammo, you should be able to put drones from a cargo container or a wreck into your drone bay. Dropping a container is a slow process so it's not like you could "hot swap" drones in the middle of a fight. Solves the problems you have with resupplying drones on a roam while also keeps them from being OP and too flexible during a fight. This, especially in faction warfare it is a real problem when you lose drones. You could even make it like onlining an ofline module requiring 100% cap level so it is almost impossible during combat. Just let me safe up and swap some drones from cargo.
I like this. You can do the same now but you need a station, this would add autonomy and user friendlyness. I hope they'll take some time to take a deep look at drones and implement some of these ideas.
Also the UI needs some loving...
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 05:06:00 -
[250] - Quote
Why exactly do I need 60km range on my kestrel? It sounds to me like this velocity bonus is mostly only beneficial for rockets.
Same for that tracking bonus on the tristan. It's really not going to do very much. Can't I have +50% rep instead? |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1069
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 08:17:00 -
[251] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote: Uh what solo pvp are you doing? How do you catch a kiting Drake or 100MN Tengu with your Myrmidon or Proteus? Please enlighten me.
On a wormhole, where that 100MN AB is useless. There's a reason why you don't see 100MN AB Tengus in w-space.
My Myrm has dual webs. Yeah, I need to land in top of him, but that's the tactic, and that's where the balance is. Kiters need to apply their own tactic, brawlers their own. I caught and exterminated a nano-Vaga with a Proteus the other night. If I get kited and looks like I can't catch the opponent, I align out and toss dishounour drones on him, has worked every single time.
Oh and if you are Gallente and want to kite, fly the Talos, the best kiting BC in game.
@ Jame,
I understand what you are saying about the fleet doctrine issue, but really sov blobs are just one aspect of EVE. In my gangs, Drake is accepted if the player can't fly anything useful.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Anaphylacti
Catalyst ops
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 10:51:00 -
[252] - Quote
Quote: Kestrel: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level <-----
Breacher: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level
Can i get a 5% shield resist bonus on that kestrel instead.
I mean seriously light missiles all ready have enough range to do whatever they want and for rockets the buff is still going to keep them close enough, also being that caldari are THE slowest race, that they are going to be in brawling range anyway. I hope you'd learned how useless all these range bonuses are in the long run since the two most important ranges in pvp are 10-13km and 24-28km and anything more is sort of irrelevant.
If the breacher gets a shield bonus why cant the kestrel get one too? It would be the better bonus and actually make the caldari missile boat the better missile boat which it is supposed to be. |
Saile Litestrider
Finest Kobold Engineering
50
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 12:48:00 -
[253] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Why aren't we making a Gallente tech one missile frigate?: Some of you have expressed concerns about our change of plans that will leave Gallente and Amarr without tech one missile frigates. It's true that both races have missile ships later in their tech two lines (Bombers, Khanid, Roden (kinda)) but they do not have any other tech one missile ships. We decided that the benefits of providing a missile frigate when the race does not use missiles at the tech one level was minor at best. Tech two and faction ships often require significantly more training to be effectively used, and each individual size of missiles are actually quite fast to train into. Getting new Gallente players to train rocket and light missile skills would mean that only the missile support skills would be of any use until they cross trained to another race. Giving a real droneboat option at the T1 frigate level and creating new gameplay with the Navitas were both higher priorities. To a large extent bombers are a special snowflake when it comes to training, we have no plans to change the weapon systems that bombers use. While I totally agree with the logic on the Gallente side, I don't follow it in terms of Amarr ships. The Amarr lineup has a lot of rocket-specialized ships in the T2s. They don't just have they (very) occasional unexpected launcher like the Gallente ships, they're specifically geared toward rockets/HAMs. If you're wanting the T1 ships to be an introduction to the race and the other ships, you really should include a ship that handles rockets. Your justification is that you wouldn't have any other ships to immediately train into, but are you not planning on rebalancing cruisers down the line as well? The lack of HAMs in the T1 lineup is an existing fault in the Amarr ships, and should be addressed rather than grandfathered in. Also, I don't consider assault frigates all that far from T1 frigates in terms of training, and a new player who loves frigates and is buying his shiny new vengeance will be shocked to learn he has none of the skills needed for its weapons. |
Lili Lu
344
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 13:59:00 -
[254] - Quote
Anaphylacti wrote:Quote: Kestrel: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level <-----
Breacher: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level
Can i get a 5% shield resist bonus on that kestrel instead. I mean seriously light missiles all ready have enough range to do whatever they want and for rockets the buff is still going to keep them close enough, also being that caldari are THE slowest race, that they are going to be in brawling range anyway. I hope you'd learned how useless all these range bonuses are in the long run since the two most important ranges in pvp are 10-13km and 24-28km and anything more is sort of irrelevant. If the breacher gets a shield bonus why cant the kestrel get one too? It would be the better bonus and actually make the caldari missile boat the better missile boat which it is supposed to be. Lol, Gallente is now the slowest race. See the new Tristan in the op. Also, if it plates with it's one less slot it will be even more of a fat turd for you to flush. Or you could live in fear of all the gallente boats with 10% armor repper bonuses with abundant grid and cpu to have dual reppers, cap inject, and fit the highest tier guns. Makes you wish your asb fits were as good.
The new racial paradigm: Electron blaser and/or destructible and slow droning dual active armor repping or plated gallente with the least speed of anyone. You for one had better welcome our new Gallente overlords. |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 14:06:00 -
[255] - Quote
Anaphylacti wrote:Quote: Kestrel: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level <-----
Breacher: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level
Can i get a 5% shield resist bonus on that kestrel instead. I mean seriously light missiles all ready have enough range to do whatever they want and for rockets the buff is still going to keep them close enough, also being that caldari are THE slowest race, that they are going to be in brawling range anyway. I hope you'd learned how useless all these range bonuses are in the long run since the two most important ranges in pvp are 10-13km and 24-28km and anything more is sort of irrelevant. If the breacher gets a shield bonus why cant the kestrel get one too? It would be the better bonus and actually make the caldari missile boat the better missile boat which it is supposed to be.
i agree caldari pride themselves on haveing the most advanced weapon systems of all the factions witch they pride there missles over every other race. also seing as all there ships are shield bassed ships it would imply there shield tech is better than all other empire faction ships. so why is every other empire over takeing caldari with shield tanking ships ? |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 15:06:00 -
[256] - Quote
serras bang wrote:Anaphylacti wrote:Quote: Kestrel: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level <-----
Breacher: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level
Can i get a 5% shield resist bonus on that kestrel instead. I mean seriously light missiles all ready have enough range to do whatever they want and for rockets the buff is still going to keep them close enough, also being that caldari are THE slowest race, that they are going to be in brawling range anyway. I hope you'd learned how useless all these range bonuses are in the long run since the two most important ranges in pvp are 10-13km and 24-28km and anything more is sort of irrelevant. If the breacher gets a shield bonus why cant the kestrel get one too? It would be the better bonus and actually make the caldari missile boat the better missile boat which it is supposed to be. i agree caldari pride themselves on haveing the most advanced weapon systems of all the factions witch they pride there missles over every other race. also seing as all there ships are shield bassed ships it would imply there shield tech is better than all other empire faction ships. so why is every other empire over takeing caldari with shield tanking ships ?
Amarr and Caldari = buffer Minmatard and Gallente = active
Thats why.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
411
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 15:16:00 -
[257] - Quote
I predict many "shoot the drones, orbit at 18km" deaths for the new tristan. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
521
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 15:52:00 -
[258] - Quote
since there seems to be ccp reading this thread i thought i would post this here and see what ccp muppet had to say:
i took it from a thread i started here.
MeBiatch wrote:So from the changes in the frigs its logical to presume that we are going to see 10% bonus to internal amour repair amount per lev applied to ships like the brutix and hyperion...
This is really awesome for small to medium sized gangs as it will give said ships a strategic advantage... but for fleet fights alas this bonus becomes moot.
As far as i understand the effectiveness comes from how the Armour is made (dense crystals)... now presumably this special amour achieves a higher re cohesion when induced with nano repair bots that are emitted by the Armour repair systems...
Now what does this have to do with a large fleet you ask?
Well a huge component of fleet warfare is Remote Repair logi ships...
The basic mechanism (nano repair bots) are emited by both internal amour repair mods and remote armour repair mods...
Logically it would make sence that the bonus that allows internal amour repair mods to be more effective per level would also work external INCOMING remote repair. (i.e. the beam from the logi ship)
what this would do is scale the bonus and make gal ships with that bonus the "go-to" fleet ships...
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
218
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 16:24:00 -
[259] - Quote
Saile Litestrider wrote:While I totally agree with the logic on the Gallente side, I don't follow it in terms of Amarr ships. The Amarr lineup has a lot of rocket-specialized ships in the T2s. They don't just have they (very) occasional unexpected launcher like the Gallente ships, they're specifically geared toward rockets/HAMs. If you're wanting the T1 ships to be an introduction to the race and the other ships, you really should include a ship that handles rockets. Your justification is that you wouldn't have any other ships to immediately train into, but are you not planning on rebalancing cruisers down the line as well? The lack of HAMs in the T1 lineup is an existing fault in the Amarr ships, and should be addressed rather than grandfathered in. Also, I don't consider assault frigates all that far from T1 frigates in terms of training, and a new player who loves frigates and is buying his shiny new vengeance will be shocked to learn he has none of the skills needed for its weapons.
Yeah, AFs are the easiest T2 ship in the world to train into. Prereqs: Engineering V (already a very high priority for Amarrian pilots who want to fit their ships halfway sensibly), and Mechanics V (already a very priority priority for pvp pilots who want to go on to overheat their guns). So AFs are sort of 'free'. It's quite unlike Evasive Maneuvering (already a high priority for people who want to run lowsec camps?; not that it's not a great skill) or Electronics Upgrades (already a high priority for nobody, ever).
Missile boats in the Amarr T2 lineup: Vengeance, Malediction, Heretic, Anathema, Sacrilege, Damnation, Legion (T3). Purifiers don't count. Vengeance is arguably the superior AF; Malediction is indisputably the superior Inty. There is a random launcher hardpoint on the Arbitrator, not that anybody's ever noticed.
That said, all of these ships have generous turret hardpoints. The Inquisitor wasn't a 'rocket/HAM/torp boat' like all ofit only had generic missile bonuses, was just a clone of the Breacher. |
Lili Lu
346
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 21:09:00 -
[260] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:I predict many "shoot the drones, orbit at 18km" deaths for the new tristan.
Lol, what could you possibly know? http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=173441
The proposed Tristan is incredibly powerful, almost op with it's one less slot and least speed in class. It doesn't need any adjustment. Stop whining for simply the same number of slots as other ships and for more speed. It will be a slow, but high & indestructible dps monster, that can't/won't be kited. Pray it is not (pre-)nerfed further. |
|
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
248
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 21:16:00 -
[261] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote: and Mechanics V (already a very priority priority for pvp pilots who want to go on to overheat their guns).
?????????????
|
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
219
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 21:22:00 -
[262] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Kuehnelt wrote: and Mechanics V (already a very priority priority for pvp pilots who want to go on to overheat their guns). ?????????????
Nanite Interfacing, Nanite Operation. |
Saile Litestrider
Finest Kobold Engineering
50
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 22:31:00 -
[263] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Yeah, AFs are the easiest T2 ship in the world to train into. Prereqs: Engineering V (already a very high priority for Amarrian pilots who want to fit their ships halfway sensibly), and Mechanics V (already a very priority priority for pvp pilots who want to go on to overheat their guns). So AFs are sort of 'free'. It's quite unlike Evasive Maneuvering (already a high priority for people who want to run lowsec camps?; not that it's not a great skill) or Electronics Upgrades (already a high priority for nobody, ever).
Missile boats in the Amarr T2 lineup: Vengeance, Malediction, Heretic, Anathema, Sacrilege, Damnation, Legion (T3). Purifiers don't count. Vengeance is arguably the superior AF; Malediction is indisputably the superior Inty. There is a random launcher hardpoint on the Arbitrator, not that anybody's ever noticed.
That said, all of these ships have generous turret hardpoints. The Inquisitor wasn't a 'rocket/HAM/torp boat' like all of these; it only had generic missile bonuses, was just a clone of the Breacher. The curse has launchers too, though even more than the arbitrator they're completely overlooked thanks to how awesome its neuts are. I think the glut of turret hardpoints are due to the very fact that all the T1 equivalents of the Khanid ships are turret boats, because there are no T1 amarr missile ships. They're grandfathered in despite being (mostly) irrelevant, there are quite a few other cases of this if I'm not mistaken.
I totally agree that the inquisitor misses the point somewhat, but we definitely need to see good rocket & HAM brawlers in the frigate and cruiser classes. It fits the very idea that CCP has been basing this rebalance around. If a player starts looking at the various T2 ships, he'll see lots of Amarr missile boats, but will have to either crosstrain or learn on T2 ships to use them. That's definitely bad design. They've been progressively working against exactly this situation for quite a while now. |
TheBreadMuncher
Boxxed Up Industries EPIC Alliance
200
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 11:32:00 -
[264] - Quote
What is this going to do to the Ishkur? Currently it's a monster because it's the only frigate that can field 5 light drones. What will happen with these new drone boats? Will the Ishkur get a damage bonus? "We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
48
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 11:56:00 -
[265] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote:What is this going to do to the Ishkur? Currently it's a monster because it's the only frigate that can field 5 light drones. What will happen with these new drone boats? Will the Ishkur get a damage bonus? While there is absolutely no basis behind this thought at all, they might give it 5 medium drones, the Ishtar can field 5 large as a crusier, so why not 5 medium for the Ishkur |
Manar Detri
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 15:31:00 -
[266] - Quote
Hello, as theres been discussion on drones themselves and having a dev reading this thread i'll slap abit of my point of view onto this.
One of the main problems for drone usage especially for drone boats is losing your drones. Losing drones can happen rather easily and show a main drawback for drones. They can be shot down which ofcourse is understandable but on top of it, it's way too easy to lose them when disengaging.
Now fozzie also spoke of sentrys regarding tristans tracking bonus and this is the drone type that faces the "loss during disengaging" the most.
So i'll suggest that all drones be fitted with a warp drive which they can use when returning to the drone bay. Basicly working in the same way as probes at the moment, you recall drones and they warp back to your drone bay. Ofcourse those drones can be recalled to warp back in only if you're within drone control range.
This kind of change would go along way to making sentry drones from awfully awkward in pve to can use in pvp. On top of this, you'd actually be able to get your normal drones back home without them dieing during that 30 minute flight back from chasing something.
Another change i'll advocate here is a change to current normal drones, give amarr drones the same stats as minmatar ones, ofcourse with their respective damage type, and then give caldari drones the same stats as gallente ones with their own respective damage types. Why? I have gallente and minmatar drone specs at lvl 4, caldari at lvl 1 and amarr lvl 0. This pretty much sums it up.
Now on tristan itself, looks nice, but howbout adding a speed bonus to drones also? Distinguishing it as a drone boat slightly more and giving teeth against very fast ships (this is actually something i'd like to see following onto all drone boats iin the game). |
El Geo
Pathfinders.
51
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 18:07:00 -
[267] - Quote
WHAT ABOUT MY RANIS!!! path-+find-+er (pthfndr, p+ñth-)n.1. One that discovers a new course or way, especially through or into unexplored regions. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
522
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 19:14:00 -
[268] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:TheBreadMuncher wrote:What is this going to do to the Ishkur? Currently it's a monster because it's the only frigate that can field 5 light drones. What will happen with these new drone boats? Will the Ishkur get a damage bonus? While there is absolutely no basis behind this thought at all, they might give it 5 medium drones, the Ishtar can field 5 large as a crusier, so why not 5 medium for the Ishkur
that would be sick and not op at all... medium drones have ****** tracking so it would work nicely... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
522
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 19:32:00 -
[269] - Quote
Manar Detri wrote:Hello, as theres been discussion on drones themselves and having a dev reading this thread i'll slap abit of my point of view onto this.
One of the main problems for drone usage especially for drone boats is losing your drones. Losing drones can happen rather easily and show a main drawback for drones. They can be shot down which ofcourse is understandable but on top of it, it's way too easy to lose them when disengaging.
Now fozzie also spoke of sentrys regarding tristans tracking bonus and this is the drone type that faces the "loss during disengaging" the most.
So i'll suggest that all drones be fitted with a warp drive which they can use when returning to the drone bay. Basicly working in the same way as probes at the moment, you recall drones and they warp back to your drone bay. Ofcourse those drones can be recalled to warp back in only if you're within drone control range.
This kind of change would go along way to making sentry drones from awfully awkward in pve to can use in pvp. On top of this, you'd actually be able to get your normal drones back home without them dieing during that 30 minute flight back from chasing something.
Another change i'll advocate here is a change to current normal drones, give amarr drones the same stats as minmatar ones, ofcourse with their respective damage type, and then give caldari drones the same stats as gallente ones with their own respective damage types. Why? I have gallente and minmatar drone specs at lvl 4, caldari at lvl 1 and amarr lvl 0. This pretty much sums it up.
Now on tristan itself, looks nice, but howbout adding a speed bonus to drones also? Distinguishing it as a drone boat slightly more and giving teeth against very fast ships (this is actually something i'd like to see following onto all drone boats iin the game).
yeah serious eh?
i mean you would think that the galente navy would have installed warp drives on drones by now...
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Obsidiana
White-Noise
147
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 05:55:00 -
[270] - Quote
CCP Fozzie: Just wanted to say that, with a very heavy heart, I support the Kestel changes. I miss the RoF Kessy of long ago, but understand the changes that got us here. I am very glad to see it get a general damage bonus. This makes it more valuable in PvE for a young mission runner. The extra mid slot has been needed for a long time. I'm glad to see that the option of having two BCUs with rockets has been thoughtfully considered.
CCP Fozzie wrote:All missiles. It's a break from the usual Caldari bonuses but in this case we felt it was appropriate. Question: Any chance of the Caracal getting a general damage or RoF bonus? For a T1 ship, this would create a natural progression to the Raven.
Btw, how about a way to make HAM Caracals more viable? |
|
Denuo Secus
58
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:25:00 -
[271] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Why aren't we making a Gallente tech one missile frigate?: Some of you have expressed concerns about our change of plans that will leave Gallente and Amarr without tech one missile frigates. It's true that both races have missile ships later in their tech two lines (Bombers, Khanid, Roden (kinda)) but they do not have any other tech one missile ships...
@CCP Fozzie, I have some questions about this:
(1) What are your plans when it comes to T1 cruisers and above? Do I understand it right, you do not plan any T1 missile ship for Amarr and Gallente at all? (no whine, just curious).
(2) Do you plan to make Roden ships to full featured missile ships?
(3) ...if so: will they be resticted to close range missiles (Gallente combat philosophy)?
(4) ...or: do you consider to remove this restriction from Khanid and don't introduce it for Roden ships? After all it would add more versatility. There is no such restriction on turret ships (bonus to close or long range turrets only). Also: both, Gallente and Amarr, are the armor tankers - slower and less agile. Especially Gallente could need some damage projection ability, imho.
Thanks for any hint! |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
422
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:56:00 -
[272] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:X Gallentius wrote:I predict many "shoot the drones, orbit at 18km" deaths for the new tristan. Lol, what could you possibly know? http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=173441The proposed Tristan is incredibly powerful, almost op with it's one less slot and least speed in class. It doesn't need any adjustment. Stop whining for simply the same number of slots as other ships and for more speed. It will be a slow, but high & indestructible dps monster, that can't/won't be kited. Pray it is not (pre-)nerfed further. I know how to die alot in a comet. After re-thinking it a bit, I think the Tristan will be a fun little boat in gangs and I kind of look forward to trying it out. Will be testing small web drones, small energy neutralizing drones, etc.. to help with range control. My thinking is the web/neuting drones may be enough to slow opponents down and catch them. Then when they start getting shot at, release the damage drones to finish the opponent off. Also, a couple of these ships should be able to project some serious e-war onto many targets. Pick the other guys off one at at time, etc...
Then drones sill get smartbombed and we'll all DIAF. But it's a T1 frigate, so... |
Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:50:00 -
[273] - Quote
Will breachers be used with that shield bonus? I doubt it ;( confirthisposmed
Yes. I'm a writer. And I'm a writer. |
Obsidiana
White-Noise
147
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 21:40:00 -
[274] - Quote
Deena Amaj wrote:Will breachers be used with that shield bonus? I doubt it ;( For PvE, this makes it a contender for budding mission runners. For PvP, with an ASB it should be about as strong as a Merlin or Incursus.
Btw, better it than the Rifter. Losing the tracking bonus would nerf armor tanked Rifters. |
Lili Lu
351
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 22:12:00 -
[275] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:[quote=Lili Lu] I know how to die alot in a comet. After re-thinking it a bit, I think the Tristan will be a fun little boat in gangs and I kind of look forward to trying it out. Will be testing small web drones, small energy neutralizing drones, etc.. to help with range control. My thinking is the web/neuting drones may be enough to slow opponents down and catch them. Then when they start getting shot at, release the damage drones to finish the opponent off. Also, a couple of these ships should be able to project some serious e-war onto many targets. Pick the other guys off one at at time, etc... Then drones will get smartbombed and we'll all DIAF. But it's a T1 frigate, so... Ceratinly it is good to stay optimistic in a game. However, it still seems daft on the part of the rebalancing team to give it less speed than the missile kiter, and short it a slot in comparison to all the other ones. I fear your original assessment is the correct one.
It still presents the why can't they recognize the problem with forcing gallente ships to fight close with blasters yet allow everything else to kite them. And also the lack of recognizing the continued split weapon problem they create with drone boats. Increasing a drone bay should be no big deal either. Bandwidth worries are understandable.
Possibly just giving it a slot, probably a low, could even things out even if they don't fix it's lack of speed. It would mean fitting an obligatory nanofiber or overdrive to compensate for the lack of speed. Web drones will just get killed easily by the improved light missiles on the way. |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
88
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 22:21:00 -
[276] - Quote
That Tristan
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 00:29:00 -
[277] - Quote
How come the breacher doesn't get a 10% shield boost bonus per level?
The incursus get 10% armor repairer effectiveness per level. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
528
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 02:04:00 -
[278] - Quote
Pink Marshmellow wrote:How come the breacher doesn't get a 10% shield boost bonus per level?
The incursus get 10% armor repairer effectiveness per level.
asb... and the fact you get repped at the beginning and not the end... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 02:05:00 -
[279] - Quote
Obsidiana wrote:Deena Amaj wrote:Will breachers be used with that shield bonus? I doubt it ;( For PvE, this makes it a contender for budding mission runners. For PvP, with an ASB it should be about as strong as a Merlin or Incursus. Btw, better it than the Rifter. Losing the tracking bonus would nerf armor tanked Rifters.
Makes sense.
The only thing that bothers me is if it is that worthy for the pvp job. ASB/Shield tanking of course does not make it that much of a free killmail as it at this moment on TQ. But I still miss that-distinct-something.
But I am probably expecting too much. It is already going to be better than the current Breacher, starting with the drones. I just wish there were a few more lightweight features. confirthisposmed
Yes. I'm a writer. And I'm a writer. |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 13:17:00 -
[280] - Quote
Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
WHY???? WHY????
Why do you guys hate the Gallente so much?
You are taking the best frig the Gallente have and beating it to death. The Tristan was a great frig.
BIG MINUS 1 Oh Great Bird of the Galaxy does no one ever read the news? |
|
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
54
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 13:56:00 -
[281] - Quote
Noslen Nosilla wrote:Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
WHY???? WHY????
Why do you guys hate the Gallente so much?
You are taking the best frig the Gallente have and beating it to death. The Tristan was a great frig.
BIG MINUS 1 I almost like the new tristan but im still disappointed in the split weapon system that galllente drone boats always get. But iwas mentioned it would be off balanced it the tristan got a damage bonus. |
Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:05:00 -
[282] - Quote
Not sure with Tristan. For me, it was a slow Rifter.
I wish the tristan were more of a third assault frig to live up to the description of fat-man. But I am expecting most likely too much. I just wish ships would not be so damn limited to very few abilities. :/.
Personally, instead of tracking speed p, I'd rather like to see bonus hp to armor, or resists, or hull hp.
Or is that too much/inappropriate? confirthisposmed
Yes. I'm a writer. And I'm a writer. |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 00:39:00 -
[283] - Quote
Deena Amaj wrote:Not sure with Tristan. For me, it was a slow Rifter.
I wish the tristan were more of a third assault frig to live up to the description of fat-man. But I am expecting most likely too much. I just wish ships would not be so damn limited to very few abilities. :/.
Personally, instead of tracking speed p, I'd rather like to see bonus hp to armor, or resists, or hull hp.
Or is that too much/inappropriate?
Oh Great Bird of the Galaxy does no one ever read the news? |
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 07:30:00 -
[284] - Quote
Quote:Breacher: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% Bonus to Missile damage per level 7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 3 launchers, 0 Turrets (-1) Fittings: 35 PWG (+4), 180 CPU (+45) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+149) / 350(+37) / 300 (+50) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 (+112.5)/ 150s (+9.37s)/ 2 (+0.667) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+16) / 3.16 (-0.62) / 1087000 (-100000) / 3.21s (-0.99) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 (+10) / 10 (+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km (+2.5) / 650 (+75) / 4 (+1) Sensor strength: 8 Ladar Signature radius: 36 (-5) Cargo capacity: 175
Ermmm.... that is completely crazy. 7.5% shield boost amount per level?! And weapons which won-¦t need any cap? That thing will tank with ancillary shield boosters better than any Incursus with active armor tank. Probably twice that good. That is completely crazy. 5% would be much (probably too much) BUT 7.5%????? How the hell you will kill this in a frig? NOOOOOOOOOOO..... epic fail. AND 4 mid slots???? Ancillary shield booster and shield boost ampiflier and you can park this thing in front of a destroyer and go afk. NOOOOOO! I hope this is a joke. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
174
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 08:42:00 -
[285] - Quote
So people have been talking about how this Tristan requires a fair bit more SP to be trained than the other ships. I think this is a fair point and could quite easily be remidied. If we dropped the drone bandwidth to 20 (4 lights) and swapped the 7.5% Hybrid tracking bonus for a 5% drone damage bonus we end up with a fairly pure drone boat that doesn't require any level 5 skills.
Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% bonus to drone damage per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20 (+15) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
|
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
243
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 09:02:00 -
[286] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:So people have been talking about how this Tristan requires a fair bit more SP to be trained than the other ships. I think this is a fair point and could quite easily be remidied. If we dropped the drone bandwidth to 20 (4 lights) and swapped the 7.5% Hybrid tracking bonus for a 5% drone damage bonus we end up with a fairly pure drone boat that doesn't require any level 5 skills.
Other frigates also need L5 skills. They need one of Small Energy Turret, Small Projectile Turret, or Small Hybrid Turret.
If the new Tristan is fine otherwise (or fine enough that you make this small change), then the ship is fine otherwise but the skills suck. Why not separately fix the skills? Like, refund SP for levels of Drone Interfacing and then build it back into base drone stats. Other weapons start out at 'meh' and then pile on incremental buffs; drones start out at 'terrible' and then get a +100% bonus from one skill.
After all, there are already other rookie-accessible drone boats in the game, like the new Crucifier, like the new exploration frigs, like TQ's Arbitrator and Vexor.
In the meantime you have +1 drone boat for players who already have the skills but also have use for frigates, and you can steer new people towards the Incursus. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 09:19:00 -
[287] - Quote
I still have concerns with the Tristan I have a few fits in mind but still find myself potentially struggling with fittings especially CPU even using mostly meta mods. Mainly because Drone mods use high CPU, drone rigs use high CPU.
In fact does it have the lowest CPU of all the rebalanced frigs?
Also power grid, the ship lost two launchers and a high hence I guess the power grid reduction, however two rocket launchers would have been 7.2 power grid yet the only real use for the utility high is a neut/nos which uses 8 power grid (minimum) for just the one slot. I find the -3.75 power grid loss harsh, since you still need to expend the power grid.
Will have to wait till it is up on sisi for sure I guess. |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 10:40:00 -
[288] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Snip
only real use for the utility high is a neut/nos which uses 8 power grid (minimum) for just the one slot. I find the -3.75 power grid loss harsh, since you still need to expend the power grid.
Will have to wait till it is up on sisi for sure I guess.
Actually the utility high could also fit a Drone Link Augmentor I (or II). Oh Great Bird of the Galaxy does no one ever read the news? |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 10:48:00 -
[289] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:So people have been talking about how this Tristan requires a fair bit more SP to be trained than the other ships. I think this is a fair point and could quite easily be remidied. If we dropped the drone bandwidth to 20 (4 lights) and swapped the 7.5% Hybrid tracking bonus for a 5% drone damage bonus we end up with a fairly pure drone boat that doesn't require any level 5 skills.
Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 5% bonus to drone damage per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20 (+15) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
Well yeah that could be done...and now you have a boat that can't field a full fight of drones or do nasty things like have a small gang drop a sentry drone each...to be honest I really dont want a drone boat Tristan I want a nice missle/gun boat...if you want to balance the Tristan leave it as is an just balance the stats....if there is really a need for a T1 Drone Frig then create a new ship based on the Tristan Hull and call it "Iseult" (look it up) give it all the proposed stats but leave the old Tristan as is. Oh Great Bird of the Galaxy does no one ever read the news? |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 11:08:00 -
[290] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:So people have been talking about how this Tristan requires a fair bit more SP to be trained than the other ships. I think this is a fair point and could quite easily be remidied. If we dropped the drone bandwidth to 20 (4 lights) and swapped the 7.5% Hybrid tracking bonus for a 5% drone damage bonus we end up with a fairly pure drone boat that doesn't require any level 5 skills. Other frigates also need L5 skills. They need one of Small Energy Turret, Small Projectile Turret, or Small Hybrid Turret. If the new Tristan is fine otherwise (or fine enough that you make this small change), then the ship is fine otherwise but the skills suck. Why not separately fix the skills? Like, refund SP for levels of Drone Interfacing and then build it back into base drone stats. Other weapons start out at 'meh' and then pile on incremental buffs; drones start out at 'terrible' and then get a +100% bonus from one skill. After all, there are already other rookie-accessible drone boats in the game, like the new Crucifier, like the new exploration frigs, like TQ's Arbitrator and Vexor. In the meantime you have +1 drone boat for players who already have the skills but also have use for frigates, and you can steer new people towards the Incursus.
the issue is that yes the better the skills you have the better the bonus...the problem is that most players can be firing either guns or missles rather quickly (within 2 hours) you don't need L5 skills to shoot small guns and you can get meta 4 guns that are almost as good as T2 and still be able to shoot, all the races have level 3 of whatever gun that race prefers on game entry, no race has the same in drone skills. Remember that to just get to 5 drones with a range of 45k takes 11 plus days and these are not T2 drones yet we still have to train for the drone racial specialist for T2 drones. Oh Great Bird of the Galaxy does no one ever read the news? |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
56
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 12:25:00 -
[291] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:So people have been talking about how this Tristan requires a fair bit more SP to be trained than the other ships. I think this is a fair point and could quite easily be remidied. If we dropped the drone bandwidth to 20 (4 lights) and swapped the 7.5% Hybrid tracking bonus for a 5% drone damage bonus we end up with a fairly pure drone boat that doesn't require any level 5 skills. Other frigates also need L5 skills. They need one of Small Energy Turret, Small Projectile Turret, or Small Hybrid Turret. If the new Tristan is fine otherwise (or fine enough that you make this small change), then the ship is fine otherwise but the skills suck. Why not separately fix the skills? Like, refund SP for levels of Drone Interfacing and then build it back into base drone stats. Other weapons start out at 'meh' and then pile on incremental buffs; drones start out at 'terrible' and then get a +100% bonus from one skill. After all, there are already other rookie-accessible drone boats in the game, like the new Crucifier, like the new exploration frigs, like TQ's Arbitrator and Vexor. In the meantime you have +1 drone boat for players who already have the skills but also have use for frigates, and you can steer new people towards the Incursus. The problem with the Tristan is it requires 3 level 5 skills to use t2 weapons. Drones V Scout Drone Operation v Small Hybrid Turrets V The rest only require there own small weapon skill to V, and as was pointed out you need Drones V to train Drone Interfacing |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 12:52:00 -
[292] - Quote
Obsidiana wrote:CCP Fozzie: Just wanted to say that, with a very heavy heart, I support the Kestel changes. I miss the RoF Kessy of long ago, but understand the changes that got us here. I am very glad to see it get a general damage bonus. This makes it more valuable in PvE for a young mission runner. The extra mid slot has been needed for a long time. I'm glad to see that the option of having two BCUs with rockets has been thoughtfully considered. CCP Fozzie wrote:All missiles. It's a break from the usual Caldari bonuses but in this case we felt it was appropriate. Question: Any chance of the Caracal getting a general damage or RoF bonus? For a T1 ship, this would create a natural progression to the Raven. Btw, how about a way to make HAM Caracals more viable?
no please dont lower missle dmg on the caracel pls pls pls dont and please for the love of god do not give it a distance bonus either. if anything give it current dmg bonus and a 5% rof bonus as i dose need it. and if you gonna make it a possible viable ham fit pls increase recharge and give it maybe 1k extra shields maybe a lil more. |
Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 15:24:00 -
[293] - Quote
How about putting these frigs under a new or specific frig bracket called "tactical frigs"; to be t1 standard frigs but with distinct roles uncommon, or so. It would/could/should allow us to add abit more to each racial frig without breaking the standard frig ruleset(if there is one). I really find these four frigs should have just abit more of specials. confirthisposmed
Yes. I'm a writer. And I'm a writer. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 16:35:00 -
[294] - Quote
Do you plan on giving Gallente rookies Drones II as they have a drone bonuses on there rookie ship and a frig that is for drones (mostly) |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 16:50:00 -
[295] - Quote
Why can't the Tristan get a tank bonus or something instead of that silly tracking bonus.. It has two unbonused guns ffs... its turrets are worse than the bloody velator so why not just give it an armor bonus?
Would make it so much more win. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 16:54:00 -
[296] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Why can't the Tristan get a tank bonus or something instead of that silly tracking bonus.. It has two unbonused guns ffs... its turrets are worse than the bloody velator so why not just give it an armor bonus?
Would make it so much more win. Another proposed idea was to reduce drone bandwith by 5 and replace the tracking bonus with a 5% drone damage bonus. |
Ryder Starhawk
The Opposite Sects Tranquillian Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 17:20:00 -
[297] - Quote
Ok I liked having the Tristan as a PvP Hybrid Missile Frig, it allows the capsule pilot to close in quickly and engage almost immediately without having to worry about the one light drone in your drone bay.
It seems to me that its being nerfed a little.
ThereGÇÖs not even damage bonuses for Hybrid Turrets anymore, So while the Kestrel has 5% Missile damage bonuses to every missile and the Breacher has 5% Missile damage bonus plus 7.5% for its shield boost.. donGÇÖt crucify me when the Tristan wont hold up, it is the slowest and the Highest Signature radius out of the two after making a quick comparison. I could make a suggestion that goes as far as to make it a little bit more durable on the armor side atleast? The two other Frigs have 500hp in shields while the Tristan has 450 in Armor?
|
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
52
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 17:52:00 -
[298] - Quote
Come on ! have you ever seen how 5 light drones eat frigates ? This Tristan is a baby Ishkur ! It is the perfect drone frigate ! And the tracking bonus for drones will help them hiting these frigates. This bonus is even better than omnidirectional tracking link ! Hybrid turret tracking bonus is not ideal, but it certainly can find some use with railgun fit.
Considering how 5 light drones can be dangerous for a frigate, this tristan may be very good.
Skill discussion is pointless though : Tristan was amazingly difficult to fly effectively before due to split weapon system ; it is yet with a split weapon system, though at least drone are useful, moreover with gallente. If a noob is forced to train its drone skill to fly this tristan, it's more of a favor than a hassle. |
Alara IonStorm
3014
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 20:46:00 -
[299] - Quote
A lot of people are talking about how the Tristan has to long an uphill train time for newer players while others are countering that this makes a good drone ship for them to train on. CCP seem to be adding more drone coverage for their Frigate lineup in general as well.
I propose that they change the way drones are skilled without changing the time they are skilled in effect leaving drones the same as before with completed training but like turret weapons and missile launchers workable at lower SP.
Example.
Drone Skill allows the launch of 5 combat drones at Lvl 1. Each level of Drone Skill trained gives 20% increase in Drone Damage. Each Lvl of Drone Interfacing gives 10% per Lvl to Drone Damage. Base Drone stats are adjusted so the combined total achieved overall is the same as current.
Secondly introduce 1 Meta lvl Drone per race.
Hobgoblin 1 : --------- Meta Lvl Hob: ------------ Hobgoblin 2 : --------------
This would allow quicker entry into usable Drones with the same amount of time invested for refinement. |
Ryder Starhawk
The Opposite Sects Tranquillian Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 20:50:00 -
[300] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Come on ! have you ever seen how 5 light drones eat frigates ? This Tristan is a baby Ishkur ! It is the perfect drone frigate ! And the tracking bonus for drones will help them hiting these frigates. This bonus is even better than omnidirectional tracking link ! Hybrid turret tracking bonus is not ideal, but it certainly can find some use with railgun fit.
Considering how 5 light drones can be dangerous for a frigate, this tristan may be very good.
Skill discussion is pointless though : Tristan was amazingly difficult to fly effectively before due to split weapon system ; it is yet with a split weapon system, though at least drone are useful, moreover with gallente. If a noob is forced to train its drone skill to fly this tristan, it's more of a favor than a hassle.
Yes I was directing it more towards the new pilots but some of the older would have an snifigant advantage.. Heck, Atleast reduce the signature radius equal to the other two atleast.. that damage reduction from missle impacts from the other two frigs that specialize in missle damage. I doubt the T1 Hobgoblins or in this case when dealing with shields is the Acolyte can burn through in time before the missiles can rip through with Nova's.
Im not saying that the Tristan couldent really hold its own.. but most new players that run level 1's that dont fully understand how to fit a ship yet; quite important to have a buffer of armor due to lack of Armor Compensation Skills. |
|
Lili Lu
357
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 21:20:00 -
[301] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kuehnelt wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:So people have been talking about how this Tristan requires a fair bit more SP to be trained than the other ships. I think this is a fair point and could quite easily be remidied. If we dropped the drone bandwidth to 20 (4 lights) and swapped the 7.5% Hybrid tracking bonus for a 5% drone damage bonus we end up with a fairly pure drone boat that doesn't require any level 5 skills. Other frigates also need L5 skills. They need one of Small Energy Turret, Small Projectile Turret, or Small Hybrid Turret. If the new Tristan is fine otherwise (or fine enough that you make this small change), then the ship is fine otherwise but the skills suck. Why not separately fix the skills? Like, refund SP for levels of Drone Interfacing and then build it back into base drone stats. Other weapons start out at 'meh' and then pile on incremental buffs; drones start out at 'terrible' and then get a +100% bonus from one skill. After all, there are already other rookie-accessible drone boats in the game, like the new Crucifier, like the new exploration frigs, like TQ's Arbitrator and Vexor. In the meantime you have +1 drone boat for players who already have the skills but also have use for frigates, and you can steer new people towards the Incursus. The problem with the Tristan is it requires 3 level 5 skills to use t2 weapons. Drones V Scout Drone Operation v Small Hybrid Turrets V The rest only require there own small weapon skill to V, and as was pointed out you need Drones V to train Drone Interfacing I could support the 20 bandwidth and 5% drone damage bonus idea as long as it gets: 1) some more cpu (for drone mods or rigs); 2) its missing (mid or low) slot; 3) less sig than a kestral; and 4) more speed than a kestrel. Seriously if CCP wants to short this ship a slot as against the others in its class short it a high. Make it 2H, 3M, 4L or 2-4-3.
With a drone damage bonus really who cares about the guns. You could fit a DLA and a neut or gun and that would be sufficient. The ship needs another mid or low slot more than a high slot. But it also needs more CPU and speed. It should not be the slowest and most bloated in class such that it will just be kiting fodder for a kestrel to stay out of scram/web with ease and kill its drones. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 22:16:00 -
[302] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kuehnelt wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:So people have been talking about how this Tristan requires a fair bit more SP to be trained than the other ships. I think this is a fair point and could quite easily be remidied. If we dropped the drone bandwidth to 20 (4 lights) and swapped the 7.5% Hybrid tracking bonus for a 5% drone damage bonus we end up with a fairly pure drone boat that doesn't require any level 5 skills. Other frigates also need L5 skills. They need one of Small Energy Turret, Small Projectile Turret, or Small Hybrid Turret. If the new Tristan is fine otherwise (or fine enough that you make this small change), then the ship is fine otherwise but the skills suck. Why not separately fix the skills? Like, refund SP for levels of Drone Interfacing and then build it back into base drone stats. Other weapons start out at 'meh' and then pile on incremental buffs; drones start out at 'terrible' and then get a +100% bonus from one skill. After all, there are already other rookie-accessible drone boats in the game, like the new Crucifier, like the new exploration frigs, like TQ's Arbitrator and Vexor. In the meantime you have +1 drone boat for players who already have the skills but also have use for frigates, and you can steer new people towards the Incursus. The problem with the Tristan is it requires 3 level 5 skills to use t2 weapons. Drones V Scout Drone Operation v Small Hybrid Turrets V The rest only require there own small weapon skill to V, and as was pointed out you need Drones V to train Drone Interfacing I could support the 20 bandwidth and 5% drone damage bonus idea as long as it gets: 1) some more cpu (for drone mods or rigs); 2) its missing (mid or low) slot; 3) less sig than a kestral; and 4) more speed than a kestrel. Seriously if CCP wants to short this ship a slot as against the others in its class short it a high. Make it 2H, 3M, 4L or 2-4-3. With a drone damage bonus really who cares about the guns. You could fit a DLA and a neut or gun and that would be sufficient. The ship needs another mid or low slot more than a high slot. But it also needs more CPU and speed. It should not be the slowest and most bloated in class such that it will just be kiting fodder for a kestrel to stay out of scram/web with ease and kill its drones. I would like to see the extra low slot and maybe 20 extra cpu (im not sure it this would be too much or too little) then players would at least have a choice, tank, gank, speed, align time, so on so forth. |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 17:57:00 -
[303] - Quote
With this balance I might actually consider using the Tristan over the Incursus occasionally.
EDIT: A drone damage bonus would be crazy, the Ishkur doesn't even get one. "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 18:21:00 -
[304] - Quote
MisterNick wrote:With this balance I might actually consider using the Tristan over the Incursus occasionally.
EDIT: A drone damage bonus would be crazy, the Ishkur doesn't even get one. The damage bonus would be needed to set up the tristan as a 4 drone ship, this was proposed to reduce the amount of sp needed to fly it. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
52
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 18:30:00 -
[305] - Quote
SP are irrelevant. Some ships are more skill intensive than other to fly, that's the way of things. As I said, old Tristan was a lot harder to fly, SP wise, than the incursus ; moreover, it used missiles, which completely worthless for a gallente pilot, and no one ever complained about it. You can always consider than using 4 drones is like using meta turret. Comparing drones and turret in term of skill is like comparing turret with missiles : it's irrelevant. I don't understand this moan about drones SP. Things don't need to all be the same. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 18:53:00 -
[306] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:SP are irrelevant. Some ships are more skill intensive than other to fly, that's the way of things. As I said, old Tristan was a lot harder to fly, SP wise, than the incursus ; moreover, it used missiles, which completely worthless for a gallente pilot, and no one ever complained about it. You can always consider than using 4 drones is like using meta turret. Comparing drones and turret in term of skill is like comparing turret with missiles : it's irrelevant. I don't understand this moan about drones SP. Things don't need to all be the same. Being as there ships are target toward noobs as they are T1 Frigates, yes SP is quite relevant |
Clair Kado
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 19:56:00 -
[307] - Quote
I love the tristan....very nice. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
88
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 00:39:00 -
[308] - Quote
Wow, thank you for the fun ships. |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 07:03:00 -
[309] - Quote
MisterNick wrote:With this balance I might actually consider using the Tristan over the Incursus occasionally.
EDIT: A drone damage bonus would be crazy, the Ishkur doesn't even get one.
Actually the Ishkur does get a drone damage bonus
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level
Also If CCP is going to do this I'd rather have the full flight of drones so leave the bandwidth at 25 please. Oh Great Bird of the Galaxy does no one ever read the news? |
Martin0
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
48
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 10:18:00 -
[310] - Quote
Noslen Nosilla wrote:MisterNick wrote:With this balance I might actually consider using the Tristan over the Incursus occasionally.
EDIT: A drone damage bonus would be crazy, the Ishkur doesn't even get one. Actually the Ishkur does get a drone damage bonus Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per levelAlso If CCP is going to do this I'd rather have the full flight of drones so leave the bandwidth at 25 please.
Drone Hitpoints means drone HP, not DAMAGE, the ishkur drones have NO damage bonus. |
|
Justin Cody
Tri-gun Lost Obsession
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 20:00:00 -
[311] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:CCP Fozzie
Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work. Its a perfectly good bonus. Particularly on hulls that cant really fit a cap booster.
no it isn't. It isn't a gunnery bonus...it is a meta-gunnery bonus. It helps the weapon function but does not increase its performance vs other ships. Heck it doesn't even help versus neut pressure.
Rebalancing energy turret cap use to be in-line with blasters/rails is advisable, tweak cap recharge and amount appropriately and give Amarr ships proper gunnery bonii like tracking...which lasers should do well but currently do not. |
Mike Whiite
Keystone Industrial
67
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 08:37:00 -
[312] - Quote
Personaly I'm not so fond of the range bonus on the Kestrel.
This will make it an excelent rocket ship and a meh light missile ship, and I personaly think the caldari frigate line has enough excelent rocket ships.
and is this tristan update not technicly making the Worm utter useless? |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 15:23:00 -
[313] - Quote
remmember way they have lined it up t1 - navy - pirate is order of stregnth |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
450
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 15:52:00 -
[314] - Quote
serras bang wrote:remmember way they have lined it up t1 - navy - pirate is order of stregnth I think you have it a bit wrong: It goes: T1 - Navy - Caldari T1 - Pirate - Caldar Navy
Caldari frigs are really strong. All those midslots... With each reblance, the Caldari frig lineup gets stronger. Hookbill top of its class. Merliin top of its class. Condor top of its class.
|
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
330
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 15:58:00 -
[315] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:and is this tristan update not technicly making the Worm utter useless?
Not at all.
The Worm has been utterly useless from day 1. And to think that CCP thought it was balanced with the Dramiel... |
Nomistrav
High Flyers RED.OverLord
79
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 20:51:00 -
[316] - Quote
I personally think the Tristan should be more closely resembling it's Stealth Bomber T2 Variant instead of putting emphasis on drone skills. The drone stuff is nice, since there's not a T1 frigate that really has anything regarding them, but it's going to be weird for new players to focus on the Tristan as their chosen type then realizing the Nemesis isn't congruent with that pathway.. |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 22:59:00 -
[317] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:serras bang wrote:remmember way they have lined it up t1 - navy - pirate is order of stregnth I think you have it a bit wrong: It goes: T1 - Navy - Caldari T1 - Pirate - Caldar Navy Caldari frigs are really strong. All those midslots... With each reblance, the Caldari frig lineup gets stronger. Hookbill top of its class. Merliin top of its class. Condor top of its class.
i have to disagree the condor is nowere near top of its class its the slowest heaviest ship out there and rellys on rockets witch means it cant stay at range to use missles cause it aint got the speed, it cant come in close cause it gets munched on shields ect but its also forced into close range due to its webs ect in the first place i do have to disagree on that and the hookbill has the same bonusses as its counterparts atm witch we will see how they bugger that up ( in my opinion).
as for the merlin i cant say as i dont use guns atm. but thats 3 out of what 7 - 8 i cant remmember and only after the rebalancing has this been the case gotta remmember the weapons systems i.e rockets and missles are lower in dmg that most others weapons systems especialy were brawling are. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
450
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 23:21:00 -
[318] - Quote
serras bang wrote:i have to disagree the condor is nowere near top of its class (tracking disruptor against turret hulls, capless weapons system, neuts, etc...) |
Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 23:51:00 -
[319] - Quote
Nomistrav wrote:I personally think the Tristan should be more closely resembling it's Stealth Bomber T2 Variant instead of putting emphasis on drone skills. The drone stuff is nice, since there's not a T1 frigate that really has anything regarding them, but it's going to be weird for new players to focus on the Tristan as their chosen type then realizing the Nemesis isn't congruent with that pathway..
One of the reasons why I wish there would be some T1 subsystem concept after all.
There are so many fun things the Tristan could be and many feel they are being forced into something. "Don't like it, don't fly it" doesn't work here, because it is the hull/design people like too. :/
confirthisposmed
I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 11:03:00 -
[320] - Quote
Dear CCP Fozzie,
Please, please, please, please, please reconsider your choice of hulls for the new Gallente frigate roles.
Your spec for the drone boat is fine, but please apply it to the Navitas hull, not the Tristan. This has at least two advantages:
1. As already stated by others, the Navitas shares an organic/aquatic appearance in common with the existing Gallente drone boats. The Tristan does not and looks more like a mechwarrior than anything else.
2. The Navitas hull has two sensibly-positioned turret hardpoints. The Tristan does not and looks distinctly odd when fitted with any sort of turret.
On the other hand, the slight redesign of the Tristan seen briefly at Fanfest looks a bit like a shield, which to me seems rather appropriate for a logi. |
|
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 11:22:00 -
[321] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:serras bang wrote:i have to disagree the condor is nowere near top of its class (tracking disruptor against turret hulls, capless weapons system, neuts, etc...)
in general missle weapon systems includeing rockets generaly generate less dmg that other weapons systems and sensor damps ect still work against caldari ships ect. and tracking disrupters ect is aless of an issue with intercepter esk ships as they have to be so close andyway and if they are there mwd's and afterburners will become a lot less of a factore due to webs and jammers. |
Lili Lu
366
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 13:33:00 -
[322] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:serras bang wrote:remmember way they have lined it up t1 - navy - pirate is order of stregnth I think you have it a bit wrong: It goes: T1 - Navy - Caldari T1 - Pirate - Caldar Navy Caldari frigs are really strong. All those midslots... With each reblance, the Caldari frig lineup gets stronger. Hookbill top of its class. Merliin top of its class. Condor top of its class. This pretty much. Add to that sniping cormorants and blapping thrashers. It is all just part of the kiting shield missile or range bonused ship supremacy we are seeing at all levels of pvp. http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 Thrasher and Merlin in the top 20. (and look at them Drakes, again ). You don't often see a tech I frigate in the top 20. That alone says a lot. The game is seriously Caldari and Minmatar Online, and has been for a while.
The rebalancing is not fixing any of this, and as XGallentius is pointing out it is making it worse. Fozzie correctly identifies the problem as not based in the ship bonuses alone. However, the new ship bonuses are synergizing all too well with the existing (and new, asb lol) module imbalances to promote shield, kiting, and missiles or range bonused guns.
The way CCP can address this is to move quickly on eliminating or strongly reducing the mobility and speed penalties on armor mods and rigs. They can fix the pre-nerfed AAH and pre-op'd ASB. They can put in game the anti-missile affects (particularly range) for TDs. And they can start handing out range bonuses to ships other than Caldari, or at least fittings that allow ranged guns (see lol Catalyst) for other races. |
Lili Lu
366
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 13:54:00 -
[323] - Quote
serras bang wrote:X Gallentius wrote:serras bang wrote:i have to disagree the condor is nowere near top of its class (tracking disruptor against turret hulls, capless weapons system, neuts, etc...) in general missle weapon systems includeing rockets generaly generate less dmg that other weapons systems and sensor damps ect still work against caldari ships ect. and tracking disrupters ect is aless of an issue with intercepter esk ships as they have to be so close andyway and if they are there mwd's and afterburners will become a lot less of a factore due to webs and jammers.
You appear not to understand that TDs and neuts are used against all the other frigs in competition with the Condor. So your argument is flawed for ignoring that there is no difference between what can/is applied to these ships by opponents. As for missile weapon systems they are blessed with range benefits over guns. Especially with range bonuses rockets do not force the fight at point blank only option that is the only choice for blaster fit ships.
Ok so you say, there is no problem, you all just need to learn to use damps, webs, and jammers? None of those are specific counters to the Caldari range bonused ships. They are pretty much used against everyone, except maybe damps. Damps would be a usable counter to kiting. However, damps eat a lot of cap and cpu though, in addition to a mid. None of which are in great supply for "armor" and short-ranged gun frigs. Those mids get filled with pointing mod and web so that if they can catch something they can hold it to bring the high damage short range guns into the action.
Went looking for your killboard stats to get some idea of your combat experience. http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1189998 . "If you see no data, a cronjob has been submitted to calculate your monthly values. Please come back in a few minutes. Thank you for your patience." Considering that you were born in 2011 I'm not expecting that the 0 kills and 0 losses will change much as I wait for the cronjob. If you are going to post opinion here do it with a character with which you fight or have fought. Otherwise your opinion is frankly not worth much. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 15:32:00 -
[324] - Quote
I think the Incurses is a fair match for the Merlin but I have to agree on the condor.
I have started seeing number of condors lately, even lost my rail cat to one, tracking disrupters seem very common and almost all Hookbills have one if not two. Proposed kestrel could also end up being very dangerous.
Is it a problem with caldari ships or tracking disrupters, the difference between them and other e-war even the dreaded ECM is that they are useful/crippling even on non e-war bonused ships.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
452
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 17:18:00 -
[325] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:I think the Incurses is a fair match for the Merlin but I have to agree on the condor. Merlin has much larger engagement envelope than Incursus. Incursus, due to repping is limited to fights against very small numbers. Merlin is scalable from solo to fleet because of its huge tank and dps.
BTW, the devs have stated that the Tristan is a small gang ship that does not scale well with numbers. So Gallente are left with one ship - the Atron. I hope the devs will eventually put reps and drones together into one ship (for Cruiser/BC hulls - keep the rep bonus on Myrm, get rid of it for Brutix. No rep bonus for Thorax please - put rep bonus on Vexor instead) because neither scales well for large gang fights. |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 17:46:00 -
[326] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:serras bang wrote:X Gallentius wrote:serras bang wrote:i have to disagree the condor is nowere near top of its class (tracking disruptor against turret hulls, capless weapons system, neuts, etc...) in general missle weapon systems includeing rockets generaly generate less dmg that other weapons systems and sensor damps ect still work against caldari ships ect. and tracking disrupters ect is aless of an issue with intercepter esk ships as they have to be so close andyway and if they are there mwd's and afterburners will become a lot less of a factore due to webs and jammers. You appear not to understand that TDs and neuts are used against all the other frigs in competition with the Condor. So your argument is flawed for ignoring that there is no difference between what can/is applied to these ships by opponents. As for missile weapon systems they are blessed with range benefits over guns. Especially with range bonuses rockets do not force the fight at point blank only option that is the only choice for blaster fit ships. Ok so you say, there is no problem, you all just need to learn to use damps, webs, and jammers? None of those are specific counters to the Caldari range bonused ships. They are pretty much used against everyone, except maybe damps. Damps would be a usable counter to kiting. However, damps eat a lot of cap and cpu though, in addition to a mid. None of which are in great supply for "armor" and short-ranged gun frigs. Those mids get filled with pointing mod and web so that if they can catch something they can hold it to bring the high damage short range guns into the action. Went looking for your killboard stats to get some idea of your combat experience. http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1189998 . "If you see no data, a cronjob has been submitted to calculate your monthly values. Please come back in a few minutes. Thank you for your patience." Considering that you were born in 2011 I'm not expecting that the 0 kills and 0 losses will change much as I wait for the cronjob. If you are going to post opinion here do it with a character with which you fight or have fought. Otherwise your opinion is frankly not worth much.
if your talking to me liu your right i have limited pvp experience even on my main char and no i wont divulge my main chracter as i like it haveing a relatively relaxed life i dont care much for pvp as my mear 20 mill sp means i get munched 90% of the time.
as you have brought it up however condors will still need to fit some kinda shielding as i said the condor lacks speed and needs to be within the brawl deadly range of guns most of the time to use prop jammers. but aint i also right in saying auto's and atilary dont relly on cap either yet you guys are specificaly going after the caldari ships.
this however being said with mwd a web and possibly a waarp jammer/ scrambler will leave what 1 open mid slot to fit a shield a small shield extender most likely wont take much to get through yet other ships will be able to fill all 3 or 4 mis slots with there support moduals and then fursther procead to dec out there low slots with tank not a dmg mod to help them along a lil.
if you wish to continue this lil chat and you prolly will repost and tell me im wrong and give decent reasons instead of oh but missles or mid slots as it wont wash as ive just pointed out. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 19:13:00 -
[327] - Quote
serras bang wrote:
if your talking to me liu your right i have limited pvp experience even on my main char and no i wont divulge my main chracter as i like it haveing a relatively relaxed life i dont care much for pvp as my mear 20 mill sp means i get munched 90% of the time.
as you have brought it up however condors will still need to fit some kinda shielding as i said the condor lacks speed and needs to be within the brawl deadly range of guns most of the time to use prop jammers. but aint i also right in saying auto's and atilary dont relly on cap either yet you guys are specificaly going after the caldari ships.
this however being said with mwd a web and possibly a waarp jammer/ scrambler will leave what 1 open mid slot to fit a shield a small shield extender most likely wont take much to get through yet other ships will be able to fill all 3 or 4 mis slots with there support moduals and then fursther procead to dec out there low slots with tank not a dmg mod to help them along a lil.
if you wish to continue this lil chat and you prolly will repost and tell me im wrong and give decent reasons instead of oh but missles or mid slots as it wont wash as ive just pointed out.
The condor is very good for stupid kitey ****.. and its really quite fast compared to most frigs, just a bit slower than the other attack frigs..
And well.. just basically everything you just said is either wrong or really full of BAD.
|
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 20:57:00 -
[328] - Quote
sonsor damp would destroy a condor 90% of the time naugh said. |
Lili Lu
367
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 21:10:00 -
[329] - Quote
serras bang wrote: if your talking to me liu your right i have limited pvp experience even on my main char and no i wont divulge my main chracter as i like it haveing a relatively relaxed life i dont care much for pvp as my mear 20 mill sp means i get munched 90% of the time. Noone is going to come after you for posting. Only the most misserable downtroden nerd would come after you in-game for posting your opinions here. Ok, come to think of it, it could happen. Anyway, I pvp on characters with much less sp than Lili atm. And they have less than 20mil sp. All I'm saying is if you post with your character that has some pvp experience it will carry more weight. As for getting munched, it happens, there's always a bigger, or smarter, or more agile fish . .
serras bang wrote: as you have brought it up however condors will still need to fit some kinda shielding as i said the condor lacks speed and needs to be within the brawl deadly range of guns most of the time to use prop jammers. but aint i also right in saying auto's and atilary dont relly on cap either yet you guys are specificaly going after the caldari ships.
this however being said with mwd a web and possibly a waarp jammer/ scrambler will leave what 1 open mid slot to fit a shield a small shield extender most likely wont take much to get through yet other ships will be able to fill all 3 or 4 mis slots with there support moduals and then fursther procead to dec out there low slots with tank not a dmg mod to help them along a lil. None of the tech I interceptor class frigates can sport a meaningful tank other than their speed. They are all subject to neuts and damps. A condor's missiles and the slashers projectile guns can at least keep firing at drones or whatever even if they are neuted out. The other two are toothless if neuted out. And if you've been following the thread you will notice that an extender may be eschewed in favor of a TD in the fourth mid. That is a luxury that the 4 mid frigs have over 3 mid frigs. Also, do your really think an "armor" tank is any better on these ships? It isn't. If active it's less powerful than a shield booster, and it buffer the penalties work directly against what these ships are supposed to have, speed and agility.
serras bang wrote: if you wish to continue this lil chat and you prolly will repost and tell me im wrong and give decent reasons instead of oh but missles or mid slots as it wont wash as ive just pointed out. Yes, I have pointed out your misconceptions and provided reasons. Again I think you lack depth and breadth of experience. XGallentius is correct in his ordering of relative strength that has come about with the beginning of ship rebalancing. Caldari is getting all the benefits. This will have to change. |
Lili Lu
367
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 21:16:00 -
[330] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:I think the Incurses is a fair match for the Merlin but I have to agree on the condor.
I have started seeing number of condors lately, even lost my rail cat to one, tracking disrupters seem very common and almost all Hookbills have one if not two. Proposed kestrel could also end up being very dangerous.
Is it a problem with caldari ships or tracking disrupters, the difference between them and other e-war even the dreaded ECM is that they are useful/crippling even on non e-war bonused ships.
This is another reason why the suggestion in the disruption frigates thread that the non-ecm modules actually should get a little nerf and the specialized non-ecm ships then a larger bonus is a good idea. It worked with ecm. No longer is everyone fitting the multispec of death. It worked with nos as well.
If TDs (and the other non-ecm ewar modules) got a nerf it would lessen the impact of the spare 4th mid fit a TD and you can **** over the other ships in class phenomenon. As long as the specialized ships still gain over current values for that ewar it fixes two problems. |
|
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 22:43:00 -
[331] - Quote
oh i know you lern more through defeat that victory ive always said that. :P and yeah i can hold my own against a lot of oponents but ide prefer to keep my pvp to a time of my choseing in low or null sec not everyone tom **** and harry trying to gank me when im chilling.
trying to fit an active shield tank onto a condor or any frigate is a job and a half i havent however been on sisi recently to cheack out the new ones however im still going with the point of probably cap hungry witch makes them extream diffucult to fit with other cap sucking abilities even with an asb i dont think you would last the reload if in a brawl fight. also as im sure we all know that after a caldaries shield is down there toast unlike an armour tanker were they can still sustain a fair amount of punishment especialy to kinetic missles.
as you said the condor is the slowest and the heaviest of the ships witch makes it after getting into point range diffucult to dictate range. and the caldari weapons systems do not increase dmg bassed on an optimal range.
again though i find this point and a td to be less of an issue as tds are not a gurante disruption and if they are they are the problem not the caldari ships maybe td's should be called into question and there effectiveness over caldari ships. as close range guns will generate more dps than even rocket launchers. infact the only way i have ever managed to win against a brawler is to pull extream range on it from the start and hopefull put him into half armour before he gets to me again you may disagre but i still stand that unless the caldari ships can fit decent tanks they will be baten 90% of the time by brawlers.
however over and above all this i do have to say your missing a big point eve isnt just all about pvp although that may be a big part and the life of a lot in eve its not the be all and end all these ships still have to be usable as mission running ships also.
hope this makes my opinions a lil clearer to you lili lu |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 22:47:00 -
[332] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:[quote=Alticus C Bear] But then pulled it. To me the range advantages of missiles are what really needs addressing and I really don't see why they floated the change they did.
ide be all up for shaveing some range of missles or better still not giveing missles many flighttime bonusses as 45k or so at max or near max skill standard for lights is enough and 80k for heavys is enoughi will say however if that happens then missles need a blanket 5% dmg buff minimal. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 01:22:00 -
[333] - Quote
serras bang wrote:!1. oh i know you lern more through defeat that victory ive always said that. :P and yeah i can hold my own against a lot of oponents but ide prefer to keep my pvp to a time of my choseing in low or null sec not everyone tom **** and harry trying to gank me when im chilling.
2. trying to fit an active shield tank onto a condor or any frigate is a job and a half i havent however been on sisi recently to cheack out the new ones however im still going with the point of probably cap hungry witch makes them extream diffucult to fit with other cap sucking abilities even with an asb i dont think you would last the reload if in a brawl fight. also as im sure we all know that after a caldaries shield is down there toast unlike an armour tanker were they can still sustain a fair amount of punishment especialy to kinetic missles.
3.as you said the condor is the slowest and the heaviest of the ships witch makes it after getting into point range diffucult to dictate range. and the caldari weapons systems do not increase dmg bassed on an optimal range.
4. again though i find this point and a td to be less of an issue as tds are not a gurante disruption and if they are they are the problem not the caldari ships maybe td's should be called into question and there effectiveness over caldari ships. as close range guns will generate more dps than even rocket launchers. infact the only way i have ever managed to win against a brawler is to pull extream range on it from the start and hopefull put him into half armour before he gets to me again you may disagre but i still stand that unless the caldari ships can fit decent tanks they will be baten 90% of the time by brawlers.
5. however over and above all this i do have to say your missing a big point eve isnt just all about pvp although that may be a big part and the life of a lot in eve its not the be all and end all these ships still have to be usable as mission running ships also.
hope this makes my opinions a lil clearer to you lili lu
1. People trying to gank you is half the fun ^^ 2. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here? You're not making all that much sense. You seem to be worrying about the tank and cap of the condor? Tank wise its about the same as the other attack frigs and cap wise its better due to the fact that it doesn't need cap to pew.. 3. The condor one of the fastest frigs in the game, and with four mids it has extremely good control of the fight. If you're having problems with range its your failing not the ships. 4. Again i am not certain what you're trying to say.. But it sounds like you're saying that TD's don't always work? Which is wrong.. 5. The big point of eve is that even if you don't want to pvp you can be prey to those who do ^^ And no not all ships need to be good pve ships, thats just silly. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
536
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 01:26:00 -
[334] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:I think the Incurses is a fair match for the Merlin but I have to agree on the condor.
I have started seeing number of condors lately, even lost my rail cat to one, tracking disrupters seem very common and almost all Hookbills have one if not two. Proposed kestrel could also end up being very dangerous.
Is it a problem with caldari ships or tracking disrupters, the difference between them and other e-war even the dreaded ECM is that they are useful/crippling even on non e-war bonused ships.
i think the answer to the condor is the tristan...
all those wonderful scout drones with tracking bonus... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
179
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 09:03:00 -
[335] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:This is another reason why the suggestion in the disruption frigates thread that the non-ecm modules actually should get a little nerf and the specialized non-ecm ships then a larger bonus is a good idea. It worked with ecm. No longer is everyone fitting the multispec of death. It worked with nos as well.
If TDs (and the other non-ecm ewar modules) got a nerf it would lessen the impact of the spare 4th mid fit a TD and you can **** over the other ships in class phenomenon. As long as the specialized ships still gain over current values for that ewar it fixes two problems at once.
Also, they need to get a range cutting effect for TDs as against missiles into the game. It has been proposed by the devs. They actually put a change onto the test server for TDs to affect explosion parameters of missiles. But then pulled it. To me the range advantages of missiles are what really needs addressing and I really don't see why they floated the change they did.
I disagree. The use of EWAR modules on non-EWAR bonused ships should always be an option. They should always be useful to some degree and not be only useful on EWAR ships. We have counters for (almost) everything in this game. The problem is that some don't really work.
ECM - Counter = ECCM and Remote ECCM. It works. Get over it.
Sensor Damps - Counter = SeBos and Remote SeBos. SD's are too weak at the moment. This is known
Tracking Disruptors - Counter = Tracking Computer & Tracking Links. It pretty much works however TC's and TL's are a little weak.
Target Painters - No real counter
Missiles - Counter = Defenders (lol) which don't work. Either these need to be fixed or we need a new counter. I don't think TD's should be used as a be all and end all module. We need something else like a chaff & flare launcher. If we had a Chaff and Flare launcher that reduced signature radius it would be a counter to target painting. It would also have a slight tracking disruptor effect however it could be easily balanced out or perhaps only effect missiles.
The bottom line is that EWAR should be an option on any ship. Things shouldn't become restricted in this game. The freedom is what we love about this game and the fact that you can, if you want, build an "Armour ECM Drake" (I've seen it used and it works somehow!) you have that option |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
65
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 10:30:00 -
[336] - Quote
The only thing i could pretend to call a counter to target painters would be an afterbuner. My reasoning is they double the speed of the ship (+135% velocity) without altering the ships sig radius, that should be sufficient to offset the tp. |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 10:49:00 -
[337] - Quote
If i was to balance the Tristan it would look like this.
Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 4 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (+24) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1006000 / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 25 (+20) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140 |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
179
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 13:03:00 -
[338] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The only thing i could pretend to call a counter to target painters would be an afterbuner. My reasoning is they double the speed of the ship (+135% velocity) without altering the ships sig radius, that should be sufficient to offset the tp.
I would have called the AB the counter to Webs as they both effect speed.
Also, increasing your own speed usually has a detrimental effect on your own tracking (ignor missile boats). Other EWAR counters simply just counter the effect of the EWAR. |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 15:09:00 -
[339] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:!5. The big point of eve is that even if you don't want to pvp you can be prey to those who do ^^ And no not all ships need to be good pve ships, thats just silly.
never did say all ships have to be usable as pve but most do have to suport it. you all crack on about ships being to good at pvp ect but you never once think about the pve impact such as 100 mn tengu witch isnt siutable for a mission fit and reduceiing the likes of cpu would actively hurt the tengu mission fit. persides i maybe missing something but trying to fit a 100 mn onto a tengu means your discarding a lot of other things i could be missing something as i said.
as for your other point if i wish to pvp i will go into low or null sec when im on eve on most days all i wanna do is chill run missions make some isk and have a chat with others i see no harm in that so the last thing i want or need is someone trying to gank me. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 15:13:00 -
[340] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The only thing i could pretend to call a counter to target painters would be an afterbuner. My reasoning is they double the speed of the ship (+135% velocity) without altering the ships sig radius, that should be sufficient to offset the tp. I would have called the AB the counter to Webs as they both effect speed. Also, increasing your own speed usually has a detrimental effect on your own tracking (ignor missile boats). Other EWAR counters simply just counter the effect of the EWAR. In the tracking formula (transversital)velocity proportional to the sign radius of the target ship. As far as you own tracking, I was tracking just fine in my catalyst with an AB using a web my self |
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Tyranis Marcus
The Arrow Project
359
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 07:09:00 -
[341] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:[quote=Brunaburh] Fire that missile loving traitor Jacques Roden!
Hahahahahahha. Thanks for the good laugh!
edit: Btw, he's your president now! . |
Noa Fuyu
Forced Penetration
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 11:42:00 -
[342] - Quote
Do those missile bonus's apply to rockets too or only missiles?
Also NA-VI-TAS NA-VI-TAS /chants |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1182
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 11:43:00 -
[343] - Quote
Noa Fuyu wrote:Do those missile bonus's apply to rockets too or only missiles?
It applies to both. Game Designer in team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
70
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 14:50:00 -
[344] - Quote
Are these changes available on the test server yet? |
Lili Lu
368
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 14:59:00 -
[345] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote: I disagree. The use of EWAR modules on non-EWAR bonused ships should always be an option. They should always be useful to some degree and not be only useful on EWAR ships. But the current situation since the ecm nerfs is that unbonused ecm on a non-ecm boat is worth squat. Meanwhile every new Caldari mid-slot blessed rebablanced frig is able to fit a TD and absolutely **** over any other racial turret shipt. And painters should not have only a 25% lesser effect on any ship as opposed to painter boats. This state of affairs is not balanced and is leading to a further shield/Caldari/Minmatar dominance (in the new frigs and dessys) that was already established at about all sub-cap ship classes prior to the start of rebalancing.
Spugg Galdon wrote: We have counters for (almost) everything in this game. The problem is that some don't really work.
ECM - Counter = ECCM and Remote ECCM. It works. Get over it.
Sensor Damps - Counter = SeBos and Remote SeBos. SD's are too weak at the moment. This is known
Tracking Disruptors - Counter = Tracking Computer & Tracking Links. It pretty much works however TC's and TL's are a little weak.
Target Painters - No real counter
Missiles - Counter = Defenders (lol) which don't work. Either these need to be fixed or we need a new counter. I don't think TD's should be used as a be all and end all module. We need something else like a chaff & flare launcher. If we had a Chaff and Flare launcher that reduced signature radius it would be a counter to target painting. It would also have a slight tracking disruptor effect however it could be easily balanced out or perhaps only effect missiles. ECCM and remote ECCM work on BSs, Logis, and Carriers, because they are percentage based. And even then many, myself included, argue that they need a buff (or we need some new skills like radar sensor integrity, to bonus the use of eccm).
For smaller ship sizes they are rather ineffectual, again due to their purely percentage based effect. Throwing a percentage boost on top of a frigs already small sensor strength does not remove a frig from being easy ewar fodder for an ecm boat. One solution might be to rewrite eccm modules to provide a small whole number bonus as well as a percentage on top.
Additionally, for frigs that are meant to tackle, those mids are already filled with prop, pointing and webbing modules. Unless of course this should be another place where Caldari mid-slot blessed should have an advantage, i.e. able to fit prop, point, web, eccm
As for damps it is not damps that are weak it is the damping effect from damping boats that is weak.
As for TDs, they are the new old style multispec. The base module needs a nerf so that it is not missile boat heaven. And when CCP makes TDs affect formerly safe missile usage missile boat pilots will be crying for a nerf right along with turret pilots that are currently getting screwed by the missile boats using that very module.
As for TP boats it seems to me for this weakest of all racial ewars about the only thing you can do to make flying these specialized boats worth flying and fitting with it is to nerf the base module and over-buff the TP-ing boats themselves. Otherwise why bother flying one.
Spugg Galdon wrote: The bottom line is that EWAR should be an option on any ship. Things shouldn't become restricted in this game. The freedom is what we love about this game and the fact that you can, if you want, build an "Armour ECM Drake" (I've seen it used and it works somehow!) you have that option I would agree, but that thinking was taken to the extreme with ecm. And then CCP said no more multispec of doom, and rightly so. But apparently every other race should not have a patent on it's ewar and thus the utility of it's ewar boats. So there goes the balance on that. Everyone else's ewar boats should be perpetually lacking in desirability, but Caldari ewar boats always in demand?
I'm sure CCP could find a slight (if they really try) level of nerf to Damps, TPs, and TDs modules such that a Caldari frig can't fit one and thumb it's nose at any turret frig it then has an easy time kiting and killing, but would provide a higher ship bonus to the specialized non-ecm ewar boat and result in a better Damping, Painting, or Weapon Disrupting Boat over current values. Non bonused ships could still fit non-ecm ewar modules but they would not operate like the old multispec of doom like they do now in certain situations and on certain non-bonused ships. The effect would be much less powerful and not a "lol look at his ship suck once i hit him with my unbonused TD." |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 17:09:00 -
[346] - Quote
Missiles - Counter = Defenders (lol) which don't work. Either these need to be fixed or we need a new counter. I don't think TD's should be used as a be all and end all module. We need something else like a chaff & flare launcher. If we had a Chaff and Flare launcher that reduced signature radius it would be a counter to target painting. It would also have a slight tracking disruptor effect however it could be easily balanced out or perhaps only effect missiles.
there is an anti missle launcher missles however aboe that i reackon there should perhaps be a gun that could be fitted to shoot down around 2.5% of all missles fired at it over a long range. that i agree with however i do say that perhaps instead of this thinks such as tracking disrupters ect should bperhaps be rebalanced instead as missle damg is quite low compaired to guns and i think a lot of people seem to forget this yes we may have range on em but we do have less dmg. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
179
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 10:46:00 -
[347] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote: Good arguments
However, I think you missed my point a little. I was trying to state that there is no [real] counter to missiles and target painters. A module that either lowered your ships signature radius, which would counter both as missiles are heavily dependent of signature radius of target, or just reduce incoming missile damage would be an effective counter. The question is; "Should this be a high or a mid slot module?" and "Should this module have drawbacks?"
With an effective missile counter missile users will probably start wanting to fit target painters to counter the counter, or they can continue to be defensive and fit EWAR or tank. The point is there would be more choice. More fits. MOAR. MOAR. MOAR |
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 16:58:00 -
[348] - Quote
STILL: Breacher is tooooooooooooo overpowered. 3/4 missile firepower of a Kestrel PLUS two drones equals more or the same firepower of a Kestrel PLUS ancillary shield booster and shield boost bonus = KILLS EVERYTHING. That cannot really be serious!!!!!
I suppose CCP had too many whining minnes about the Rifter and now there is the breacher who will replace the old superior Rifter. Breacher is faster than the Kestrel and Tristan, it has more or equal firepower, more cargo and an active tank with ancillary shield booster (plus shield boost amplifier) that will be better than any incursus or vengeance on dope. WHERE THE HELL IS THIS BALANCE????????
Another joke: any tormentor fit possible that the tormentor doesnt suck in comparison to these three ships???? No? Oh I forgot it is an amarr ship. It has to suck. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
44
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 18:09:00 -
[349] - Quote
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:STILL: Breacher is tooooooooooooo overpowered. 3/4 missile firepower of a Kestrel PLUS two drones equals more or the same firepower of a Kestrel PLUS ancillary shield booster and shield boost bonus = KILLS EVERYTHING. That cannot really be serious!!!!!
I suppose CCP had too many whining minnes about the Rifter and now there is the breacher who will replace the old superior Rifter. Breacher is faster than the Kestrel and Tristan, it has more or equal firepower, more cargo and an active tank with ancillary shield booster (plus shield boost amplifier) that will be better than any incursus or vengeance on dope. WHERE THE HELL IS THIS BALANCE????????
Another joke: any tormentor fit possible that the tormentor doesnt suck in comparison to these three ships???? No? Oh I forgot it is an amarr ship. It has to suck.
can you back up your claims with actual testing? if not, maybe wait until you can and start screaming at this point. it's all theory atm. i think everything that can bring some form of alpha will instapop every breacher along its way. |
Vakr Onzo
Elite Amarr Navy Academy
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 20:05:00 -
[350] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:STILL: Breacher is tooooooooooooo overpowered. 3/4 missile firepower of a Kestrel PLUS two drones equals more or the same firepower of a Kestrel PLUS ancillary shield booster and shield boost bonus = KILLS EVERYTHING. That cannot really be serious!!!!!
I suppose CCP had too many whining minnes about the Rifter and now there is the breacher who will replace the old superior Rifter. Breacher is faster than the Kestrel and Tristan, it has more or equal firepower, more cargo and an active tank with ancillary shield booster (plus shield boost amplifier) that will be better than any incursus or vengeance on dope. WHERE THE HELL IS THIS BALANCE????????
Another joke: any tormentor fit possible that the tormentor doesnt suck in comparison to these three ships???? No? Oh I forgot it is an amarr ship. It has to suck. can you back up your claims with actual testing? if not, maybe wait until you can and start screaming at this point. it's all theory atm. i think everything that can bring some form of alpha will instapop every breacher along its way. yeah, it's not as if breachers would be focus of combined fire that can overwhelm any shield tank it may have on. It would surprise a PVPer not used to its newly modified capabilities but thats all there would be for situations where it would appear OP. |
|
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 07:31:00 -
[351] - Quote
I have some experience that CCP made a stealth buff on all active shield tanked ships with the ancillary shield booster. That means: CCP stealth buffed minmatar ships. The Cyclone actually is the best and most effective bc of all and eats any other bc for beakfast. I can even imagine that a x-large ancillary shield boost cyclone can eat two drakes at once because they can-¦t break his tank. I remember that we engaged a lonely cyclone with a smaller fleet of probably four destroyers and some cruisers (3 or 4) and couldn-¦t get that thing down. We tried for maybe three minutes without any chance to break his tank and then got killed by an incoming sfi fleet. Actually the ancillary shield booster makes the cyclone a over the top killer machine. A good fitted cyclone can active tank over 1300 ehp/s and still do some 460dps without needing cap for guns. There are battleships which won-¦t get that thing down and get killed.... Wonder that nobody is whining about that. Now imagine what a breacher can do then with this bonus. It will eat cruisers? |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
44
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 07:54:00 -
[352] - Quote
since we are crafting theories big time here,
breacher will most certainly have the shield resists of every other minmatar shield frig. like 0% em 20% therm 40% kin and 50% explo. kill it with lasers or emp. 4 midslots: 1 prop, 1 point/scram 1 asb / normal booster 1 small shield ext. /boostamplifier / some sort of shield resists.
i did not check for cpu here. so either it will boost asb style with with the one minute reload or normally with high cap usage. on top of that, when you choose boostamplifier you boost well but any ship with em/term damage will tear through your puny 500 hp buffer. note: breacher has the most fragile hull and almost no armor, like the kestrel. with small extender there is some more shield buffer but again ****** resists. when going for resists, imagine cpu will too tight to maintain t2 invul. field and still go for max damage. the passive shield resist modules only work for one dmg type so overall resists still will be underwhelming.
maybe some fittings need some small additionally tweaking, but thats the reason we have a test server. and testing is the only way to find those small imbalances.
as for the asb: in my opinion it could use some more fittings. since it does not balance out with cap usage like normal shield boosters, more fitting requirements seems appropriate. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
44
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 08:03:00 -
[353] - Quote
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote: A good fitted cyclone can active tank over 1300 ehp/s and still do some 460dps without needing cap for guns. There are battleships which won-¦t get that thing down and get killed.... Wonder that nobody is whining about that. Now imagine what a breacher can do with this bonus. It will eat cruisers?
well nobody is whining over the dual x-large asb rohk. which is your proposed uber-cyclone on steroids. how did you engage those cyclones? passive/buffer heavy missile drake?
and the breacher will do nothing like that because any cruiser with a web and em/therm damage profile will rofl stomp it to hell.
|
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 14:25:00 -
[354] - Quote
Quote:well nobody is whining over the dual x-large asb rohk. which is your proposed uber-cyclone on steroids. how did you engage those cyclones? passive/buffer heavy missile drake?
and the breacher will do nothing like that because any cruiser with a web and em/therm damage profile will rofl stomp it to hell.
Well I killed a maelstrom some minutes ago in a fleet with 4 cynabals, 2 vagabonds, one omen and eight frigates. Maelstrom was xasb tanked. It took more than 5 minutes (!!!!!!) with this fleet to get that thing down. YES Breacher will eat cruisers for breakfast. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
38
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:48:00 -
[355] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote: A good fitted cyclone can active tank over 1300 ehp/s and still do some 460dps without needing cap for guns. There are battleships which won-¦t get that thing down and get killed.... Wonder that nobody is whining about that. Now imagine what a breacher can do with this bonus. It will eat cruisers?
well nobody is whining over the dual x-large asb rohk. which is your proposed uber-cyclone on steroids. how did you engage those cyclones? passive/buffer heavy missile drake? and the breacher will do nothing like that because any cruiser with a web and em/therm damage profile will rofl stomp it to hell.
XL asb Rokh is basically a slightly worse maelstrom
Like the ferox is a slightly worse cyclone.
If they were more common people would be whining, the tank on those things is borderline ********. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
45
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 21:19:00 -
[356] - Quote
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:Quote:well nobody is whining over the dual x-large asb rohk. which is your proposed uber-cyclone on steroids. how did you engage those cyclones? passive/buffer heavy missile drake?
and the breacher will do nothing like that because any cruiser with a web and em/therm damage profile will rofl stomp it to hell. Well I killed a maelstrom some minutes ago in a fleet with 4 cynabals, 2 vagabonds, one omen and eight frigates. Maelstrom was xasb tanked. It took more than 5 minutes (!!!!!!) with this fleet to get that thing down. YES Breacher will eat cruisers for breakfast.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14530001 that one?
i'd like to know, which implants he used besides a full crystal set. i guess killing his pod would have been a nice catch ;) this fittings uses 15,56% more cpu as the ship can provide. and he did not fit overclocking rigs. i found one possibility to make it happen but the kill shows he did not use it. but this is hardly something which is normal and a very rare case.
you know, as soon as this changes go onto the testserver, i fit some cruisers and you fit some breachers and we will do some testing. if you are right, ccp fozzie would be the last one to dismiss evidence from testing. if you are not right, i get to say "told you". |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
80
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 22:28:00 -
[357] - Quote
Wow this thread has completly derailled... |
Seleucus Ontuas
The Partisan Brigade Republic Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 05:46:00 -
[358] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:Quote:well nobody is whining over the dual x-large asb rohk. which is your proposed uber-cyclone on steroids. how did you engage those cyclones? passive/buffer heavy missile drake?
and the breacher will do nothing like that because any cruiser with a web and em/therm damage profile will rofl stomp it to hell. Well I killed a maelstrom some minutes ago in a fleet with 4 cynabals, 2 vagabonds, one omen and eight frigates. Maelstrom was xasb tanked. It took more than 5 minutes (!!!!!!) with this fleet to get that thing down. YES Breacher will eat cruisers for breakfast. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14530001 that one? i'd like to know, which implants he used besides a full crystal set. i guess killing his pod would have been a nice catch ;) this fittings uses 15,56% more cpu as the ship can provide. and he did not fit overclocking rigs. i found one possibility to make it happen but the kill shows he did not use it. but this is hardly something which is normal and a very rare case. you know, as soon as this changes go onto the testserver, i fit some cruisers and you fit some breachers and we will do some testing. if you are right, ccp fozzie would be the last one to dismiss evidence from testing. if you are not right, i get to say "told you".
Actually, Overclocking Rigs are still bugged on EVE-Kill. If you check the actual killmail, you'll notice that his two free rig slots were indeed two large overclocks. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
45
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 08:35:00 -
[359] - Quote
ah, didn't know that. but that explains how he got this baby running ^^ but still i don't think this kind of maxing out should be balanced on the ship - lvl. if you reduce the boost amount bonus, so that the boost amount of people who are using implant > bil ISK and boosters have a good but moderate boosting, everyone "only" using t1, t2 and maybe faction gear would suffer to a point where every boody ask why there even is a boost amount bonus. just as the armor rep amount bonus on many gallente ships is thought of as lame.
in my hubble opinion this should be balanced on the lvl of modules, e.g. asb (they really could use more fitting requirements),
|
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
126
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 10:44:00 -
[360] - Quote
Much as i would love you guys to get on to t1 cruisers asap (as they are the most broken, hello Omen), you really need to balance t2 frigs next. Eafs have been an abominationsince birth. |
|
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
13
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 13:28:00 -
[361] - Quote
I see so many new uses for breacher it is not even funny....not all of them are shield tanked even.
Also: The ancillary Shield booster gets overpowered when it is a XL one. The med ones are meh and small ones suck. A small calculation for you:
Considering 2x em 1x Therm rigs and Overheating. Non bonused ship.
ASB case 10 cap booster 50's => 25.5 seconds Considering 2 devoted tank slots => 1 SBA 1 MASB Obtained EFT tank 157 Obtained extra EHP before reload = 25.5*157= 4003.5
t2 medium shield Booster Case 2 tank slots = 1 MSB 1 capbooster Obtained EFT tank 73 Time required to reach ASB EHP= 4003.5/73 = 54 sec So any frig fight that gets longer than 54 sec favors the t2 medium shield booster.
t2 medium shield extender case 2 tank slots = 1 Medium Shield Extender 1 Invul Obtained Extra EHP (1 em 2 extender rigs invul OH) 4452
As you can see it is not THAT good. When you do the same calculations for XLASB though you'll notice that it is MUCH MUCH MORE effective. Hence your disappointment with XLASB cyclone and Maels.
TL;DR Ancillaries on frig size vessels are overrated. Breachers are going to rock neverthless. |
Neville Smit
Griffin Capsuleers Ad-Astra
13
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 13:18:00 -
[362] - Quote
Neville approves.
I especially like the new Tristan drone boat. Who needs missiles, anyway? |
Klarr Vaine
Funkwagen Broadcasting
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 13:28:00 -
[363] - Quote
I'm sure I'm echoing here, but switch the Inquisitor with the Tormentor to keep things in sync with the whole T1 Frig to Stealth Bomber progression? ATM the changes are nice, but this particular point bothers me. It would be awesome to see an Inquisitor with the same slot layout + drone bay as the current Tormentor, but with missile/rocket goodness. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
419
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 14:33:00 -
[364] - Quote
Strange that the new drone frigate has turret bonuses instead of drone damage bonuses but whatever, i won't be flying any of these. They see me trolling, they hating... |
LawlSTi
The Imperial Fedaykin
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 15:25:00 -
[365] - Quote
Would you like to know more? |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 15:28:00 -
[366] - Quote
I'm confused about the Kestrel bonuses changes. The Kestrel already has a 5 percent damage bonus to all missile types. It looks like the only changes to the bonuses is they're replacing the 10 percent kinetic damage bonus with a 10 percent velocity bonus... wait you're reducing damage and adding range to a weapon that already has extreme range for a frigate... Unless you make the bonus apply to rockets it's worthless IMO... Hint hint CCP. A rocket bonus would make it a really sweet PVP ship.
I do like some of the changes to shield HP etc though. |
hercules fitch
Don't Regret Until Next Keg
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 15:35:00 -
[367] - Quote
I can see it now... a swarm of tristans camping a gate, each with a garde II out. Quick lock and blap
If it doesn't sound like a good idea, you need moar booze! |
Recoil IV
Knights of the Posing Meat
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 15:38:00 -
[368] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Like I said, some plans have changed in the past few months. The Navitas will be in the last set of frigates we reveal, but it's no longer planned as a drone damage frigate.
I'm looking forward to that last reveal most of all. Running the latest design past the CSM now, will get it to you asap.
is the kestrel bonus apply to rockets aswell? |
Marcus Gideon
Federal Defense Operations Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
29
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 16:43:00 -
[369] - Quote
19 pages?
TLDR
Why is the Incursus, which grows up to be a droning Ishkur, considered a gunboat...
While the Tristan, which grows up to be a bomber, using drones now?
This does not make sense... |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
19
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 18:40:00 -
[370] - Quote
So if I get this right, there is not going to be a single missile platform among the Tech I Ammar ships anymore.
|
|
Lili Lu
418
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 20:03:00 -
[371] - Quote
Marcus Gideon wrote:19 pages?
TLDR
Why is the Incursus, which grows up to be a droning Ishkur, considered a gunboat...
While the Tristan, which grows up to be a bomber, using drones now?
This does not make sense... No problem. Have some imagination. The engineers just gutted the inards of the drone bay and support infrastructure and constructed missile and warhead storage and support infrastructure in its place, and vice versa, or whatever. nbd. The new nemesis is not the same hull as the tristan anyway (at least atm). PLEASE IMMEDIATELY FIX THE POOR AGILITY ON THE NEMESIS BTW
As for tristans plopping one sentry and camping, i doubt it would be seen much. It is a lot more training to field a sentry than light drones. And if one is going to sentry camp a gate just do it with vexors. 3 sentries > 1 sentry. As long as you have some dedicated tackle on the gate the scan res advantage of the tristans means nothing. |
Seminole Sun
Galactic Industrial Explorers
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 20:09:00 -
[372] - Quote
Is there a reason to NOT have the Tristan be missiles and drones?
I too am bothered by the fact that the very first gallente "missile" boat is essentially the stealth bomber... That state of affairs argues in FAVOR of the Tristan having launchers... not against...
If you REALLY want to think outside the box, give the Tristan two launchers and a bonus like covert ops gets but that reduces the fitting cost for missile launchers such that the Tristan could fit a single heavy missile launcher or two light/rockets
As it is right now, what gallente ship will EVER use lights or rockets?? |
Iam Widdershins
Sebiestor Tribe
720
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 22:45:00 -
[373] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level ... Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) I am concerned that the Tristan now almost entirely outmodes the Ishkur in applied drone DPS. Am I wrong to think this? Is there any possible reason why I should not be concerned? Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
548
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 22:50:00 -
[374] - Quote
Seminole Sun wrote: As it is right now, what gallente ship will EVER use lights or rockets??
around the same time you see a drone ship for caldari. Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
92
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 22:53:00 -
[375] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Seminole Sun wrote: As it is right now, what gallente ship will EVER use lights or rockets??
around the same time you see a drone ship for caldari. The Worm!!!! Caldari drone ship + Gallente rocket ship |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
548
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 23:02:00 -
[376] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Seminole Sun wrote: As it is right now, what gallente ship will EVER use lights or rockets??
around the same time you see a drone ship for caldari. The Worm!!!! Caldari drone ship + Gallente rocket ship
pirate faction does not count...
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
59
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 00:46:00 -
[377] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: pirate faction does not count...
Or it also count as a gallente missile boat ; but I prefer to not count it. |
Kintaana
Ghosts of Ragnarok Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 00:56:00 -
[378] - Quote
So the kestrel gets a range bonus yet is slower and less agile than the Breacher, which also gets a range bonus + a tank bonus + higher mobility? How does that make sense? Light missiles with 40km range isn't going to give it more survivability or any sort of advantage over short range frigates that can easily overcome it and out-tank it.
Once again this would make minmatar unbalanced while shoehorning caldari into a non-pvp role. It would be more balanced if the Breacher was slower due to the beefy tank or if the Kestrel had 3 low slots and the Breacher had 2, allowing the Kestrel to fit a nano to compensate for it's lack of mobility and be in harmony with it's bonuses. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2416
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 01:52:00 -
[379] - Quote
Kintaana wrote:So the kestrel gets a range bonus yet is slower and less agile than the Breacher, which also gets a range bonus + a tank bonus + higher mobility? How does that make sense? Light missiles with 40km range isn't going to give it more survivability or any sort of advantage over short range frigates that can easily overcome it and out-tank it.
Once again this would make minmatar unbalanced while shoehorning caldari into a non-pvp role. It would be more balanced if the Breacher was slower due to the beefy tank or if the Kestrel had 3 low slots and the Breacher had 2, allowing the Kestrel to fit a nano to compensate for it's lack of mobility and be in harmony with it's bonuses. I believe the Kestrel will have considerably more than a 40km range when all is said and done.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 06:32:00 -
[380] - Quote
Quote:So the kestrel gets a range bonus yet is slower and less agile than the Breacher, which also gets a range bonus + a tank bonus + higher mobility? How does that make sense? Light missiles with 40km range isn't going to give it more survivability or any sort of advantage over short range frigates that can easily overcome it and out-tank it.
Once again this would make minmatar unbalanced while shoehorning caldari into a non-pvp role. It would be more balanced if the Breacher was slower due to the beefy tank or if the Kestrel had 3 low slots and the Breacher had 2, allowing the Kestrel to fit a nano to compensate for it's lack of mobility and be in harmony with it's bonuses.
You are completely right. But don-¦t forget: Who gets a completely new stabber and vagabond model? Who got a stealth uber buff with asb? Who has the best Tech1 destroyer, cruiser, battlecruiser and with asb now also battleship in the game? Who had the monopol on the best tech1 frig in the game for years (Rifter)? Who has the most overpowered pirate frigs like dram? Winmatar. It is always the same. Probably minnies were winning about the fact that they hadnt the only one T1 frig in the game, CCP feared about our spoiled minnie players and now they get this breacher stuff. I had to laugh in the last dev blog that not only the other cruisers but also rupture should get a buff. ROFL. The best Tech1 cruiser in game gets a buff. Wow.
Well you are completely right: Kestrel looks like a complete loser against the Breacher. Let us not talk about the Tormentor... That is a total epic fail. But look only at the dram: CCP wants it so. Minnies always had the best ships (lets not talk about their weapons) and it will be so forever until the whole universe is flying minnie ship only. If I were you I would start training for minmatar frigate. CCP WANTS this frigate to be overpowered. So: working as intended |
|
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
14
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 06:50:00 -
[381] - Quote
Kintaana wrote:So the kestrel gets a range bonus yet is slower and less agile than the Breacher, which also gets a range bonus + a tank bonus + higher mobility? How does that make sense? Light missiles with 40km range isn't going to give it more survivability or any sort of advantage over short range frigates that can easily overcome it and out-tank it.
Once again this would make minmatar unbalanced while shoehorning caldari into a non-pvp role. It would be more balanced if the Breacher was slower due to the beefy tank or if the Kestrel had 3 low slots and the Breacher had 2, allowing the Kestrel to fit a nano to compensate for it's lack of mobility and be in harmony with it's bonuses.
I miss the part where breacher gets a range bonus and you miss the part where kestrel gets 4 launcher slots. It is not as unbalanced as you make it out to be.
I think I'll be using both ships. The range bonus on kestrel allows some niche setups that will be very useful in FW. |
Mike Flynn
StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 16:34:00 -
[382] - Quote
Ummmm.... The t1 frigs progress to t1 cruisers. Not stealth bombers. Jus sayin |
Koujjo Dian
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
18
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 19:27:00 -
[383] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi wrote:So if I get this right, there is not going to be a single missile platform among the Tech I Ammar ships anymore?
That's what it looks like. All other races got 2 attack frigates with different weapon systems. Amarr got TWO frikken laser frigates. Although I enjoy the tormentor (mostly because the punisher sux solo with only 2 mids) it would have been nice to have a T1 missile frig or drone boat to branch off of. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Random Rule Conform Corpname A Point In Space
48
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 19:34:00 -
[384] - Quote
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:Quote:So the kestrel gets a range bonus yet is slower and less agile than the Breacher, which also gets a range bonus + a tank bonus + higher mobility? How does that make sense? Light missiles with 40km range isn't going to give it more survivability or any sort of advantage over short range frigates that can easily overcome it and out-tank it.
Once again this would make minmatar unbalanced while shoehorning caldari into a non-pvp role. It would be more balanced if the Breacher was slower due to the beefy tank or if the Kestrel had 3 low slots and the Breacher had 2, allowing the Kestrel to fit a nano to compensate for it's lack of mobility and be in harmony with it's bonuses. You are completely right. But don-¦t forget: Who gets a completely new stabber and vagabond model? Who got a stealth uber buff with asb? Who has the best Tech1 destroyer, cruiser, battlecruiser and with asb now also battleship in the game? Who had the monopol on the best tech1 frig in the game for years (Rifter)? Who has the most overpowered pirate frigs like dram? Winmatar. It is always the same. Probably minnies were winning about the fact that they hadnt the only one T1 frig in the game, CCP feared about our spoiled minnie players and now they get this breacher stuff. I had to laugh in the last dev blog that not only the other cruisers but also rupture should get a buff. ROFL. The best Tech1 cruiser in game gets a buff. Wow. Well you are completely right: Kestrel looks like a complete loser against the Breacher. Let us not talk about the Tormentor... That is a total epic fail. But look only at the dram: CCP wants it so. Minnies always had the best ships (lets not talk about their weapons) and it will be so forever until the whole universe is flying minnie ship only. If I were you I would start training for minmatar frigate. CCP WANTS this frigate to be overpowered. So: working as intended
please whine more. cause you haven't enough already...
|
Aaron Greil
Royal Imperial Navy Reserves
22
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 22:33:00 -
[385] - Quote
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but will the ishkur hull be moved from the incursus to the tristan? It would be pretty sweet to have a tristan hull as an AF. |
Ares Desideratus
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 00:10:00 -
[386] - Quote
So when someone uses a Tristan and they want to upgrade to the next drone boat, instead of going to the T2 variation of the ship they already use, they have to search up a new hull based off an Incursus and train for the Ishkur? Either the Incursus should be the T1 drone boat, or the Tech 2 version of the Tristan should be a drone combat ship. The Tristan as a drone boat doesn't make any sense at all really, cause now the Nemesis is kind of left in the cold, disrespected, and the T2 frigate drone boat is a completely different hull from the T1, CCP you must order some more common sense and dumb it into this game |
Martin0
The Scope Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 06:43:00 -
[387] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:So when someone uses a Tristan and they want to upgrade to the next drone boat, instead of going to the T2 variation of the ship they already use, they have to search up a new hull based off an Incursus and train for the Ishkur? Either the Incursus should be the T1 drone boat, or the Tech 2 version of the Tristan should be a drone combat ship. The Tristan as a drone boat doesn't make any sense at all really, cause now the Nemesis is kind of left in the cold, disrespected, and the T2 frigate drone boat is a completely different hull from the T1, CCP you must order some more common sense and dumb it into this game
Dude you are really so pissed because the ishkur have the incursus hull? Be happy that we will have a t1 Droneboat Frig. We will have also a Drone destroyer SoonTM, i think new players after the tristan will upgrade to said destroyer not to a 30million isk ship. |
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 14:49:00 -
[388] - Quote
Well. CCPs argument for shooting away dmg bonus for kinetic on the Kestrel: It can choose dmg types then and does all dmg types same good. Super. With this argumentation: Minmatar can also use all damage types with the same effiency. Shouldn-¦t CCP then decrease dmg on Minmatar ships? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
|
Belsina
STAHLSTURM Test Friends Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 17:12:00 -
[389] - Quote
NO NO and again NO
i will NOT support that dicision
i am willing to support the idea where the --> Kestrel, Iquisitor, Breacher and my favorite hull-design the Tristan <--
are rocket-/light missile platforms
obviously because they are the tech 1 variations of the Covertt-Ops-Bombers
and as simple as that: DO NOT MAKE THEM INTO SOME OTHER STRANGE STUFF |
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 21:42:00 -
[390] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Why aren't we making a Gallente tech one missile frigate?: Some of you have expressed concerns about our change of plans that will leave Gallente and Amarr without tech one missile frigates. It's true that both races have missile ships later in their tech two lines (Bombers, Khanid, Roden (kinda)) but they do not have any other tech one missile ships. We decided that the benefits of providing a missile frigate when the race does not use missiles at the tech one level was minor at best. Tech two and faction ships often require significantly more training to be effectively used, and each individual size of missiles are actually quite fast to train into. Getting new Gallente players to train rocket and light missile skills would mean that only the missile support skills would be of any use until they cross trained to another race. Giving a real droneboat option at the T1 frigate level and creating new gameplay with the Navitas were both higher priorities. To a large extent bombers are a special snowflake when it comes to training, we have no plans to change the weapon systems that bombers use.
The Celestis cruiser has 2 missle launcher hardpoints. Nerfing Hisec has never fixed Losec or Nullsec |
|
Ares Desideratus
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 23:21:00 -
[391] - Quote
Martin0 wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:So when someone uses a Tristan and they want to upgrade to the next drone boat, instead of going to the T2 variation of the ship they already use, they have to search up a new hull based off an Incursus and train for the Ishkur? Either the Incursus should be the T1 drone boat, or the Tech 2 version of the Tristan should be a drone combat ship. The Tristan as a drone boat doesn't make any sense at all really, cause now the Nemesis is kind of left in the cold, disrespected, and the T2 frigate drone boat is a completely different hull from the T1, CCP you must order some more common sense and dumb it into this game Dude you are really so pissed because the ishkur have the incursus hull? Be happy that we will have a t1 Droneboat Frig. We will have also a Drone destroyer SoonTM, i think new players after the tristan will upgrade to said destroyer not to a 30million isk ship. Are you ********? It doesn't make sense, so simply put, they should fix it. It does not make ANY SENSE AT ALL. WHY THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING THIS IS A GOOD THING?
I like the drone boat thing and love the look of the new Tristan... it's just too bad it doesn't make one ******* shred of sense for the Tristan to be the Tech 1 drone boat frigate, while an Incursus hull gets to be the Tech 2 version. This is common sense that a five year old possesses, it's called a pattern, and the way they're proposing this stuff right now, that pattern is GARBAGE.
That is unless they are planning some major changes with the Gallente Assault Ships. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
487
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 01:39:00 -
[392] - Quote
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare wrote:The Celestis cruiser has 2 missle launcher hardpoints. And they are fail too. Nobody uses them. Just say "No" to Jacques Roden and his split hybrid-missile loving fetish! |
Aglais
Liberation Army BricK sQuAD.
85
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 18:53:00 -
[393] - Quote
Somehow, I highly doubt that the Ishkur will remain a T2 Incursus hull long after this change. It makes sense to me that there'd be a T2 combat frigate hull based on each of the T1 ones, so really the only choice there is to keep the Enyo as an Incursus hull (which is probably going to be tweaked again in future to be made more in line with what the Incursus does if it doesn't already do that; I don't fly Gallente very much right now though that will likely change) and then turn the Ishkur into a T2 Tristan. At least, it makes sense to me that this'd happen for the Caldari and Gallente ships. Right now Amarr and Minmatar have T2 frigates that don't correspond to any T1 counterpart and as such I'd probably cringe a little if the Vengeance became a Tormentor variant, or the Jaguar a Breacher.
Still I can't help but feel that the Tristan wouldn't quite be on par with the Incursus in some ways, primarily it's low seeming power grid. It's fitting options also feel to me like they're going to be more limited in terms of defense due to it's lower quantity of low slots, when both the Merlin and Kestrel get mids. I suppose I'll find out on wednesday on Duality. |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1379
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 13:25:00 -
[394] - Quote
Belsina wrote:NO NO and again NO i will NOT support that dicision i am willing to support the idea where the --> Kestrel, Iquisitor, Breacher and my favorite hull-design the Tristan <-- are rocket-/light missile platforms obviously because they are the tech 1 variations of the Covertt-Ops-Bombers and seriously ... what is a drone tracking bonus for when u use small drones??? and as simple as that: DO NOT MAKE THEM INTO SOME OTHER STRANGE STUFF
Ares Desideratus wrote: Are you ********? It doesn't make sense, so simply put, they should fix it. It does not make ANY SENSE AT ALL. WHY THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING THIS IS A GOOD THING?
I like the drone boat thing and love the look of the new Tristan... it's just too bad it doesn't make one ******* shred of sense for the Tristan to be the Tech 1 drone boat frigate, while an Incursus hull gets to be the Tech 2 version. This is common sense that a five year old possesses, it's called a pattern, and the way they're proposing this stuff right now, that pattern is GARBAGE.
That is unless they are planning some major changes with the Gallente Assault Ships.
Well you see there's a funny story about all this.
Back in YC 105 when CreoDron was beginning the design process for their new Ishkur-class Assault Ship, they naturally looked first to the (retroactively) drone-centric Tristan as a base hull. The project lead Masalle Ambrette acquired a large number of Tristan hulls for prototyping and set her team to work. However two major technical challenges quickly arose. Roni Darieux himself had given them their design targets, and he was adamant that the new ship had to be the pinnacle of drone carrier technology. The Ishkur must be able to field a 50m3 dronebay as well as top of the line armor plating for a Frigate. These goals proved difficult to meet using the Tristan as a base hull. Although it had the largest dronebay of any existing Frigate at the time the Tristan's hull layout did not allow for easy expansion of the already significant bay. In particular, the port side bulkhead quickly lost structural integrity when the internal supports were scaled back in order to expand the bay. Attempts to meet the armor plating requirements also ran into difficulties as the Tristan thruster systems struggled to keep up under the heavier load. The classic thruster pod design of the Tristan hull did not provide easy expansion room to upgrade the thrusters either. After numerous failures in the prototyping process the CreoDron team decided to change course and build the Ishkur using a completely different hull. They eventually settled on the Incursus hull as the next logical choice. Although the Incursus did not have the same base dronebay that the Tristan offered, it was more easily modified and the conversion from the Incursus' advanced armor repair systems to the Ishkur's superior resistance and plating systems proceeded relatively smoothly. As a bonus, the team was able to carry over the Incursus' superior hybrid weapon damage boosting technology and create another strong selling point for their new Assault Ship. Although the Ishkur project resulted in what would prove to be an extremely successful ship (in both direct ship sales and additional profits from increased use of CreoDron's advanced drone portfolio), Masalle Ambrette was left afterwards with thousands of mangled Tristan hulls that had failed the prototyping process. In order to recoup some of the development costs, CreoDron sold the hulls cheap as scrap to the highest bidder.
They say one woman's trash is another woman's treasure, and when CreoDron put the 'scrap' onto the market one smart scientist saw a diamond in the rough. Ruborraude Eyghelet, a rising star at Duvolle Laboratories, had just been recently put in charge of a top secret development project on contract from the Federation Navy. Her team was designing what would eventually come to be known as the Nemesis stealth bomber, a dramatic departure from normal Gallente battle doctrines that would help keep them competitive in the battlefields of the future. Eyghelet knew that the Nemesis would need to be a radical departure from previous frigate designs, but building a new hull design completely from scratch would take a portion of her limited budget that she could not afford to lose. When the report of the mangled Tristan fire-sale crossed her desk she immediately saw an opportunity to cut her costs. The damaged Tristan hulls were reformed into a barely recognizable state during the prototyping process to accommodate the battleship sized missile launchers and bomb deployment system, with only the iconic front plating remaining to visually connect it to the frigate it had once been. The dronebay was converted into a bomb and missile storage bay, and the Duvolle team also managed to ingeniously convert the advanced tracking computer on the Tristan into an efficient missile guidance system. In the end Duvolle and Eyghelet managed to create the Nemesis while keeping costs down to only 14% overbudget, easily beating the market predictions and sending Duvolle stock to the highest it had reached in years.
It just goes to prove that the world of spaceship construction is more complicated and fascinating than any of us would expect. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Lili Lu
430
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 13:30:00 -
[395] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: eve is real I was there Or one could alternately say, It's magic |
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
472
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 13:37:00 -
[396] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:*ZOMGPOWNED*
FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
DeBingJos
Weirdo Asylum Shadow Rock Alliance
363
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 13:39:00 -
[397] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: GREAT STUFF
.. because of Fozzie
Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
33
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 13:50:00 -
[398] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: ishkur blah blah tristan blah blah nemesis blah blah incursus
LOL
but seriously:
About ten years ago, the Caldari Navy was developing new combat cruisers to accompany the dawning of the capsuleer age. Guglielmo Kusomonmon was in charge of designing the newest, most skill oriented combat cruiser for the caldari fleet. Guglielmo himself was an artist, someone who liked to make his ships look different. For him, symmetrical ships were not necessary, he thought ships could look beautiful no matter whether they looked like a set of cargo containers mashed together or a slab of concrete thrown into space. He also had a phobia of turkeys. Thus, when he pondered "what could the most fearful thing be for an enemy to see when they encounter the caldari fleet?" The answer was obvious. Turkeys.
And thus the Moa was born! |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Kraken.
314
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 13:58:00 -
[399] - Quote
Actually I think you'll find the stardrive of the Nemesis is based on colliding antimatter inteverters while the Tristan's shock dampers operate on a helix node which obviously would start a trinary feedback loop through the nitromainframe emitter |
Korsiri
Mousetrap Building Inc.
70
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 14:01:00 -
[400] - Quote
All hail Fozzie! Also, would read Again. |
|
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
159
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 14:18:00 -
[401] - Quote
10/10 would read again I write a blog. I think people read it. http://throughnewbeyes.wordpress.com
Mate |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
1567
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 14:26:00 -
[402] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Belsina wrote:NO NO and again NO i will NOT support that dicision i am willing to support the idea where the --> Kestrel, Iquisitor, Breacher and my favorite hull-design the Tristan <-- are rocket-/light missile platforms obviously because they are the tech 1 variations of the Covertt-Ops-Bombers and seriously ... what is a drone tracking bonus for when u use small drones??? and as simple as that: DO NOT MAKE THEM INTO SOME OTHER STRANGE STUFF Ares Desideratus wrote: Are you ********? It doesn't make sense, so simply put, they should fix it. It does not make ANY SENSE AT ALL. WHY THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING THIS IS A GOOD THING?
I like the drone boat thing and love the look of the new Tristan... it's just too bad it doesn't make one ******* shred of sense for the Tristan to be the Tech 1 drone boat frigate, while an Incursus hull gets to be the Tech 2 version. This is common sense that a five year old possesses, it's called a pattern, and the way they're proposing this stuff right now, that pattern is GARBAGE.
That is unless they are planning some major changes with the Gallente Assault Ships.
Well you see there's a funny story about all this. Back in YC 105 when CreoDron was beginning the design process for their new Ishkur-class Assault Ship, they naturally looked first to the (retroactively) drone-centric Tristan as a base hull. The project lead Masalle Ambrette acquired a large number of Tristan hulls for prototyping and set her team to work. However two major technical challenges quickly arose. Roni Darieux himself had given them their design targets, and he was adamant that the new ship had to be the pinnacle of drone carrier technology. The Ishkur must be able to field a 50m3 dronebay as well as top of the line armor plating for a Frigate. These goals proved difficult to meet using the Tristan as a base hull. Although it had the largest dronebay of any existing Frigate at the time the Tristan's hull layout did not allow for easy expansion of the already significant bay. In particular, the port side bulkhead quickly lost structural integrity when the internal supports were scaled back in order to expand the bay. Attempts to meet the armor plating requirements also ran into difficulties as the Tristan thruster systems struggled to keep up under the heavier load. The classic thruster pod design of the Tristan hull did not provide easy expansion room to upgrade the thrusters either. After numerous failures in the prototyping process the CreoDron team decided to change course and build the Ishkur using a completely different hull. They eventually settled on the Incursus hull as the next logical choice. Although the Incursus did not have the same base dronebay that the Tristan offered, it was more easily modified and the conversion from the Incursus' advanced armor repair systems to the Ishkur's superior resistance and plating systems proceeded relatively smoothly. As a bonus, the team was able to carry over the Incursus' superior hybrid weapon damage boosting technology and create another strong selling point for their new Assault Ship. Although the Ishkur project resulted in what would prove to be an extremely successful ship (in both direct ship sales and additional profits from increased use of CreoDron's advanced drone portfolio), Masalle Ambrette was left afterwards with thousands of mangled Tristan hulls that had failed the prototyping process. In order to recoup some of the development costs, CreoDron sold the hulls cheap as scrap to the highest bidder. They say one woman's trash is another woman's treasure, and when CreoDron put the 'scrap' onto the market one smart scientist saw a diamond in the rough. Ruborraude Eyghelet, a rising star at Duvolle Laboratories, had just been recently put in charge of a top secret development project on contract from the Federation Navy. Her team was designing what would eventually come to be known as the Nemesis stealth bomber, a dramatic departure from normal Gallente battle doctrines that would help keep them competitive in the battlefields of the future. Eyghelet knew that the Nemesis would need to be a radical departure from previous frigate designs, but building a new hull design completely from scratch would take a portion of her limited budget that she could not afford to lose. When the report of the mangled Tristan fire-sale crossed her desk she immediately saw an opportunity to cut her costs. The damaged Tristan hulls were reformed into a barely recognizable state during the prototyping process to accommodate the battleship sized missile launchers and bomb deployment system, with only the iconic front plating remaining to visually connect it to the frigate it had once been. The dronebay was converted into a bomb and missile storage bay, and the Duvolle team also managed to ingeniously convert the advanced tracking computer on the Tristan into an efficient missile guidance system. In the end Duvolle and Eyghelet managed to create the Nemesis while keeping costs down to only 14% overbudget, easily beating the market predictions and sending Duvolle stock to the highest it had reached in years. It just goes to prove that the world of spaceship construction is more complicated and fascinating than any of us would expect.
Nerd. |
|
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
270
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 14:41:00 -
[403] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Belsina wrote:NO NO and again NO i will NOT support that dicision i am willing to support the idea where the --> Kestrel, Iquisitor, Breacher and my favorite hull-design the Tristan <-- are rocket-/light missile platforms obviously because they are the tech 1 variations of the Covertt-Ops-Bombers and seriously ... what is a drone tracking bonus for when u use small drones??? and as simple as that: DO NOT MAKE THEM INTO SOME OTHER STRANGE STUFF Ares Desideratus wrote: Are you ********? It doesn't make sense, so simply put, they should fix it. It does not make ANY SENSE AT ALL. WHY THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING THIS IS A GOOD THING?
I like the drone boat thing and love the look of the new Tristan... it's just too bad it doesn't make one ******* shred of sense for the Tristan to be the Tech 1 drone boat frigate, while an Incursus hull gets to be the Tech 2 version. This is common sense that a five year old possesses, it's called a pattern, and the way they're proposing this stuff right now, that pattern is GARBAGE.
That is unless they are planning some major changes with the Gallente Assault Ships.
Well you see there's a funny story about all this. Back in YC 105 when CreoDron was beginning the design process for their new Ishkur-class Assault Ship, they naturally looked first to the (retroactively) drone-centric Tristan as a base hull. The project lead Masalle Ambrette acquired a large number of Tristan hulls for prototyping and set her team to work. However two major technical challenges quickly arose. Roni Darieux himself had given them their design targets, and he was adamant that the new ship had to be the pinnacle of drone carrier technology. The Ishkur must be able to field a 50m3 dronebay as well as top of the line armor plating for a Frigate. These goals proved difficult to meet using the Tristan as a base hull. Although it had the largest dronebay of any existing Frigate at the time the Tristan's hull layout did not allow for easy expansion of the already significant bay. In particular, the port side bulkhead quickly lost structural integrity when the internal supports were scaled back in order to expand the bay. Attempts to meet the armor plating requirements also ran into difficulties as the Tristan thruster systems struggled to keep up under the heavier load. The classic thruster pod design of the Tristan hull did not provide easy expansion room to upgrade the thrusters either. After numerous failures in the prototyping process the CreoDron team decided to change course and build the Ishkur using a completely different hull. They eventually settled on the Incursus hull as the next logical choice. Although the Incursus did not have the same base dronebay that the Tristan offered, it was more easily modified and the conversion from the Incursus' advanced armor repair systems to the Ishkur's superior resistance and plating systems proceeded relatively smoothly. As a bonus, the team was able to carry over the Incursus' superior hybrid weapon damage boosting technology and create another strong selling point for their new Assault Ship. Although the Ishkur project resulted in what would prove to be an extremely successful ship (in both direct ship sales and additional profits from increased use of CreoDron's advanced drone portfolio), Masalle Ambrette was left afterwards with thousands of mangled Tristan hulls that had failed the prototyping process. In order to recoup some of the development costs, CreoDron sold the hulls cheap as scrap to the highest bidder. They say one woman's trash is another woman's treasure, and when CreoDron put the 'scrap' onto the market one smart scientist saw a diamond in the rough. Ruborraude Eyghelet, a rising star at Duvolle Laboratories, had just been recently put in charge of a top secret development project on contract from the Federation Navy. Her team was designing what would eventually come to be known as the Nemesis stealth bomber, a dramatic departure from normal Gallente battle doctrines that would help keep them competitive in the battlefields of the future. Eyghelet knew that the Nemesis would need to be a radical departure from previous frigate designs, but building a new hull design completely from scratch would take a portion of her limited budget that she could not afford to lose. When the report of the mangled Tristan fire-sale crossed her desk she immediately saw an opportunity to cut her costs. The damaged Tristan hulls were reformed into a barely recognizable state during the prototyping process to accommodate the battleship sized missile launchers and bomb deployment system, with only the iconic front plating remaining to visually connect it to the frigate it had once been. The dronebay was converted into a bomb and missile storage bay, and the Duvolle team also managed to ingeniously convert the advanced tracking computer on the Tristan into an efficient missile guidance system. In the end Duvolle and Eyghelet managed to create the Nemesis while keeping costs down to only 14% overbudget, easily beating the market predictions and sending Duvolle stock to the highest it had reached in years. It just goes to prove that the world of spaceship construction is more complicated and fascinating than any of us would expect. Nerd.
You're just jealous of his mad skills. Don't worry, I am too. We can be jealous together. http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
|
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
855
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 15:07:00 -
[404] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Well you see there's a funny story about all this.
Back in YC 105 when CreoDron was beginning ....
Aren't you supposed to be working on balancing my frigates or something?
Love the story, stop being cooler than all the other CCPers. Gonna get some mean looks at work. Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
877
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 15:19:00 -
[405] - Quote
yeah. but why green? a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
492
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 15:42:00 -
[406] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: These goals proved difficult to meet using the Tristan as a base hull. Although it had the largest dronebay of any existing Frigate at the time the Tristan's hull layout did not allow for easy expansion of the already significant bay.
But, but, but... the IMICUS had the largest initial drone bay (15m^3) AND a huge cargo volume for modifications! This just goes to show you how ******** the Gallente ship designers are, and how they all (with the exception of that guy who designed the Comet) need to be replaced. Fire Jacques Roden, reincarnate the founder of Creodron and have him design good drone boats, and get that Duvolle guy who is so in love with blasters on the phone. His ships fail in fleet combat too!
(nice writeup btw. ) |
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
929
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 15:49:00 -
[407] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: .... It just goes to prove that the world of spaceship construction is more complicated and fascinating than any of us would expect.
That is the most polite hazing I have ever seen. :golfclap:
~ |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
287
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 15:51:00 -
[408] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Nerd. Wow, not even a smiley to go with that .. easy to see who the new guy is around the office
It actually presents an interesting not to mention beneficial-for-Eve idea: What if, all major changes to the overt part of the game (ie. not the server side mojo) had to be accompanied by a small (not as long winded as the one from nerd-trying-to-impress, aka. Fozzie mind you ) "Eve lore integration" blurp? Would help you evolve the horribly stagnant story part of Eve, would help you identify people who could be hijacked to write stories for release but most importantly it would effectively force any changes to be thought of in-context/in-game (ie. not just as spreadsheet numbers) and hopefully make QA's jobs a little easier as most glaringly broken items never make it that far (looking at you ASB!).
PS: Might even have prevented the Winmatar Online syndrome Eve has struggled with for a few years as there is no way in hell a backwards people living in tribes/caves as glorified hunter gatherers and whose only manufactured good is duct tape could ever be better than everyone at the same time
|
Lili Lu
430
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 16:02:00 -
[409] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote: PS: Might even have prevented the Winmatar Online syndrome Eve has struggled with for a few years as there is no way in hell a backwards people living in tribes/caves as glorified hunter gatherers and whose only manufactured good is duct tape could ever be better than everyone at the same time I don't know, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Living_Through_Chemistry
If you work long enough to develop a superior duct tape it could be quite awesome. And have you never marveled at the amazing heights to which scaffolding can reach? Scafforlding and improved duct tape could indeed create amazing stuff. |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1124
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 19:09:00 -
[410] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Belsina wrote:NO NO and again NO i will NOT support that dicision i am willing to support the idea where the --> Kestrel, Iquisitor, Breacher and my favorite hull-design the Tristan <-- are rocket-/light missile platforms obviously because they are the tech 1 variations of the Covertt-Ops-Bombers and seriously ... what is a drone tracking bonus for when u use small drones??? and as simple as that: DO NOT MAKE THEM INTO SOME OTHER STRANGE STUFF Ares Desideratus wrote: Are you ********? It doesn't make sense, so simply put, they should fix it. It does not make ANY SENSE AT ALL. WHY THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING THIS IS A GOOD THING?
I like the drone boat thing and love the look of the new Tristan... it's just too bad it doesn't make one ******* shred of sense for the Tristan to be the Tech 1 drone boat frigate, while an Incursus hull gets to be the Tech 2 version. This is common sense that a five year old possesses, it's called a pattern, and the way they're proposing this stuff right now, that pattern is GARBAGE.
That is unless they are planning some major changes with the Gallente Assault Ships.
Well you see there's a funny story about all this. Back in YC 105 when CreoDron was beginning the design process for their new Ishkur-class Assault Ship, they naturally looked first to the (retroactively) drone-centric Tristan as a base hull. The project lead Masalle Ambrette acquired a large number of Tristan hulls for prototyping and set her team to work. However two major technical challenges quickly arose. Roni Darieux himself had given them their design targets, and he was adamant that the new ship had to be the pinnacle of drone carrier technology. The Ishkur must be able to field a 50m3 dronebay as well as top of the line armor plating for a Frigate. These goals proved difficult to meet using the Tristan as a base hull. Although it had the largest dronebay of any existing Frigate at the time the Tristan's hull layout did not allow for easy expansion of the already significant bay. In particular, the port side bulkhead quickly lost structural integrity when the internal supports were scaled back in order to expand the bay. Attempts to meet the armor plating requirements also ran into difficulties as the Tristan thruster systems struggled to keep up under the heavier load. The classic thruster pod design of the Tristan hull did not provide easy expansion room to upgrade the thrusters either. After numerous failures in the prototyping process the CreoDron team decided to change course and build the Ishkur using a completely different hull. They eventually settled on the Incursus hull as the next logical choice. Although the Incursus did not have the same base dronebay that the Tristan offered, it was more easily modified and the conversion from the Incursus' advanced armor repair systems to the Ishkur's superior resistance and plating systems proceeded relatively smoothly. As a bonus, the team was able to carry over the Incursus' superior hybrid weapon damage boosting technology and create another strong selling point for their new Assault Ship. Although the Ishkur project resulted in what would prove to be an extremely successful ship (in both direct ship sales and additional profits from increased use of CreoDron's advanced drone portfolio), Masalle Ambrette was left afterwards with thousands of mangled Tristan hulls that had failed the prototyping process. In order to recoup some of the development costs, CreoDron sold the hulls cheap as scrap to the highest bidder. They say one woman's trash is another woman's treasure, and when CreoDron put the 'scrap' onto the market one smart scientist saw a diamond in the rough. Ruborraude Eyghelet, a rising star at Duvolle Laboratories, had just been recently put in charge of a top secret development project on contract from the Federation Navy. Her team was designing what would eventually come to be known as the Nemesis stealth bomber, a dramatic departure from normal Gallente battle doctrines that would help keep them competitive in the battlefields of the future. Eyghelet knew that the Nemesis would need to be a radical departure from previous frigate designs, but building a new hull design completely from scratch would take a portion of her limited budget that she could not afford to lose. When the report of the mangled Tristan fire-sale crossed her desk she immediately saw an opportunity to cut her costs. The damaged Tristan hulls were reformed into a barely recognizable state during the prototyping process to accommodate the battleship sized missile launchers and bomb deployment system, with only the iconic front plating remaining to visually connect it to the frigate it had once been. The dronebay was converted into a bomb and missile storage bay, and the Duvolle team also managed to ingeniously convert the advanced tracking computer on the Tristan into an efficient missile guidance system. In the end Duvolle and Eyghelet managed to create the Nemesis while keeping costs down to only 14% overbudget, easily beating the market predictions and sending Duvolle stock to the highest it had reached in years. It just goes to prove that the world of spaceship construction is more complicated and fascinating than any of us would expect. marry me http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
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MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1124
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 19:12:00 -
[411] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Nerd. Wow, not even a smiley to go with that .. easy to see who the new guy is around the office It actually presents an interesting not to mention beneficial-for-Eve idea: What if, all major changes to the overt part of the game (ie. not the server side mojo) had to be accompanied by a small (not as long winded as the one from nerd-trying-to-impress, aka. Fozzie mind you ) "Eve lore integration" blurp? Would help you evolve the horribly stagnant story part of Eve, would help you identify people who could be hijacked to write stories for release but most importantly it would effectively force any changes to be thought of in-context/in-game (ie. not just as spreadsheet numbers) and hopefully make QA's jobs a little easier as most glaringly broken items never make it that far (looking at you ASB!). PS: Might even have prevented the Winmatar Online syndrome Eve has struggled with for a few years as there is no way in hell a backwards people living in tribes/caves as glorified hunter gatherers and whose only manufactured good is duct tape could ever be better than everyone at the same time actully they used to to do that back when eve online was cool. Expansions were released along side books that explained what was happening. The down time was explained as an attack on a major conchord station in which chondord shut down all gates and stations. Then while they deployed the expsion there was a live blog of what was going on inside eve.
It all ended with video news reports as teasers that mirrored the book, *including a nyx being crashed into a station in eve*and the ending of the book was the start of the factional warfare system.
Now i ask you, why ccp? why will you never be this cool again? ;_; http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
461
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 19:13:00 -
[412] - Quote
As an (OMG) Roleplayer I definitely support the road Fozzie is heading down. :O |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
194
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 23:55:00 -
[413] - Quote
IIshira wrote:I'm confused about the Kestrel bonuses changes. The Kestrel already has a 5 percent damage bonus to all missile types. It looks like the only changes to the bonuses is they're replacing the 10 percent kinetic damage bonus with a 10 percent velocity bonus... wait you're reducing damage and adding range to a weapon that already has extreme range for a frigate... Unless you make the bonus apply to rockets it's worthless IMO... Hint hint CCP. A rocket bonus would make it a really sweet PVP ship.
I do like some of the changes to shield HP etc though.
Erm its bonuses DO apply to rockets ....
Basically the Kestrel is losing 5% of its 10% bonus to kinetic damage (bringing it inline with the other damage types) in exchange for 10% missile velocity (which isn't only useful for the extra range btw). Much more importantly it will actually have enough grid to fit 4 light launchers without gimping itself.
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Russell Casey
Deep Void Industrial Group Damned Nation
199
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 02:52:00 -
[414] - Quote
Was kind of hoping we'd get t1 bombers (frigs shooting torps but no bomb launcher+cov ops cloak) after the t1 interceptors (fast-locking frigs with prop jam cost bonus but not range). |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
70
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 12:28:00 -
[415] - Quote
Well to the ships. I did try the frigs yesterday.. Although i was deeply disappointed i didn't get to blow fozzie up at all.
I must say after those tests that i really like the breacher, I think it is a bit worse than the incursus but still very good in its own right. Its dps is rather **** though.
The Kestrel i never had any interest in since its a kiting frig not a combat frig.
But the tristan is the one i wanted most but ended up not really liking. Its not that its bad, its just not nearly as good as other frigs out there. It needs a four slot tank. As it is it has less low slots than the incursus and no tank bonus so it ends up being pretty damn weak in comparison. |
Kesthely
Fleet of the Damned Happy Endings
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 13:39:00 -
[416] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Well to the ships. I did try the frigs yesterday.. Although i was deeply disappointed i didn't get to blow fozzie up at all.
I must say after those tests that i really like the breacher, I think it is a bit worse than the incursus but still very good in its own right. Its dps is rather **** though.
The Kestrel i never had any interest in since its a kiting frig not a combat frig.
But the tristan is the one i wanted most but ended up not really liking. Its not that its bad, its just not nearly as good as other frigs out there. It needs a four slot tank. As it is it has less low slots than the incursus and no tank bonus so it ends up being pretty damn weak in comparison.
The tristan was nice, and so was the breacher, the kestrel (for long range setups) might need a little more cpu |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
71
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:47:00 -
[417] - Quote
Kesthely wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Well to the ships. I did try the frigs yesterday.. Although i was deeply disappointed i didn't get to blow fozzie up at all.
I must say after those tests that i really like the breacher, I think it is a bit worse than the incursus but still very good in its own right. Its dps is rather **** though.
The Kestrel i never had any interest in since its a kiting frig not a combat frig.
But the tristan is the one i wanted most but ended up not really liking. Its not that its bad, its just not nearly as good as other frigs out there. It needs a four slot tank. As it is it has less low slots than the incursus and no tank bonus so it ends up being pretty damn weak in comparison. The tristan was nice, and so was the breacher, the kestrel (for long range setups) might need a little more cpu Let me explain: The tristan has its flexibility both in armor or shiled setups and range with guns and drones to make it as a well versed all round combat ship, suitable both for PvP and PvE The breacher brings in another condor like ship, with slightly different damage / speed / tank ratios, and this one i would really love to see an assault version of. This ship could become the next classical example of utelizing different strengths and weaknesses in the TII lineup if the breacher was made an assault ship vs the crow as an interceptor. The caldari already have a good brawler, and a good fast ship so i tried to see the kestrel in action as a mid to long range combat frigate, as its bonus to missile range suggests I wanted to fit (TII fitted) 4 launchers, a mwd, a remote sensor damp, a long range point, a sensor booster, and 2 bcu's but even with 3 cpu rigs, i could not do this. I can dump the bcu's for tracking enhancers or overdrives to make it fit, but without the tracking enhancers update for missiles implemented at this point, i can't determine if the damage to range ratio suits me. Also the fact that you don't have the option to choose concerns me. In the tristan i could get a mwd, medium shield extender, point, some guns, 2 drone damage, and an overdrive on there, and with skills i would have over 170 dps at 60 km more speed and a gigantic buffer compared with the kestrel, wich i had at nearly 110 dps 59 km range with 2 bcu's So give a kestreal a slight cpu buf plz
Ok a lot of things that i don't really agree with
1. First of the breacher is not like the condor, The condor is a paperthin attack frig while the breacher is a rather tanky combat frig. Its more like a shield/rocket version of the incursus tbh.
2. " Caldari already have a good brawler", while this is true it is also true that they have a good kiter. The kestrel is a Combat frig, which is from what i've seen from the others not supposed to be a lolkite thing? Its not a second attack frig, its a second combat frig.
3. Stop shield tanking gallente ships... I'm pretty sure it counts as ship abuse... |
Mizhir
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
105
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:39:00 -
[418] - Quote
Damn, the new kestrel is a beast.
FoxFour completely owned with one during the Shoot a dev event. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
118
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 21:34:00 -
[419] - Quote
Other than the problems with the fitting system, I was quite pleased with the performance of the new Tristan. That tracking bonus helps tons vs mwd frigs Ideas for drone improvement |
Aglais
Liberation Army BricK sQuAD.
103
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 04:27:00 -
[420] - Quote
Very impressed with the Tristan overall, but I do suggest bumping up it's PG a little. Probably back to what it is on TQ, or even improving it very slightly by a point or two. I doubt it'd be able to spiral out of control due to it's slot layout. |
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Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
22
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 07:36:00 -
[421] - Quote
mkint wrote:So... Tristan is going to be a better drone boat than ishkur? Same bandwidth plus drone bonuses. That's my concern as well. === I have no problem with the Tristan not having missile bonuses, the current version doesn't either, but it would be nice to keep the missile hardpoints. The Gallente wouldn't have a dedicated missile boat, but they would have something they could fit missile launchers to just the same as it is now.
On a side note, please take a look at the nemesis, it has the same PG and less grid than Manticore, so there's no reason to use one. Also Roden is the one that makes Missile Ships, please change the Manufacturer from Duvolle. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
76
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 13:53:00 -
[422] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:mkint wrote:So... Tristan is going to be a better drone boat than ishkur? Same bandwidth plus drone bonuses. That's my concern as well. === I have no problem with the Tristan not having missile bonuses, the current version doesn't either, but it would be nice to keep the missile hardpoints. The Gallente wouldn't have a dedicated missile boat, but they would have something they could fit missile launchers to just the same as it is now. On a side note, please take a look at the nemesis, it has the same PG and less grid than Manticore, so there's no reason to use one. Also Roden is the one that makes Missile Ships, please change the Manufacturer from Duvolle.
The tristan is pretty bad compared to the Ishkur.
Ishkur can actually fit a decent tank. |
Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 21:57:00 -
[423] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Xindi Kraid wrote:mkint wrote:So... Tristan is going to be a better drone boat than ishkur? Same bandwidth plus drone bonuses. That's my concern as well. === I have no problem with the Tristan not having missile bonuses, the current version doesn't either, but it would be nice to keep the missile hardpoints. The Gallente wouldn't have a dedicated missile boat, but they would have something they could fit missile launchers to just the same as it is now. On a side note, please take a look at the nemesis, it has the same PG and less grid than Manticore, so there's no reason to use one. Also Roden is the one that makes Missile Ships, please change the Manufacturer from Duvolle. The tristan is pretty bad compared to the Ishkur. Ishkur can actually fit a decent tank. I'd say the Ishkur is pretty bad compared to the Tristan.... why the heck would you pay 30 times the price for a bit more tank / dps, but less speed? It doesn't even get a drone tracking bonus. |
Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 21:59:00 -
[424] - Quote
CCP, I am really upset about how you are "fixing" the Kestrel. The way it looks now just looks like a slower Condor with a bit more damage. I say it needs at least another low-slot. |
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 05:47:00 -
[425] - Quote
I really hoped winmatar wouldn-¦t be winmatar any more after the rebalance but it doesn-¦t seem so. Minmatar should be more about guerilla. Fast, hard hitting and fragile ships. What do we get instead? The race with the fastest ships, by far best weapon systems (ac need no cap plus dmg type choosing, even artillery will be soon far better than HM, especially with THIS alpha) and best active tanking. Additionally: Active tanking with shields means they dont-¦t loose any speed. Okay what don-¦t Minmatar have? They have everything. Instead I would decrease the Minmatar ship tank really instead giving them the same tank like the other ships or at least decrease their resistances more. Minmatar ships already have speed like hell and CCP completely underestimates this factor. There is some reason that drake is breakfast for drams and daredevils.... And what Gallente would really need: Decrease the speed penalty of armor active tank rigs. Incursus which needs speed because of blasters and has active armor tanking needs to decrease his speed for better active armor tanking. Minmatar which already have crazy speed don-¦t need to do this and have additionaly the better weapon system which additionally doesn-¦t even need cap in comparison to blasters.
Now let us compare Incursus and the new Breacher: Tank given from the hulls is the same. Breacher is faster, shield tanking in comparison to Incursus doesn-¦t make him slower, the weapons need no cap and it can choose damage. Plus Breacher has one drone more. PLUS: Has anybody considered what a punch a rocket beacher has? I have killed Dagan some weeks ago with another toon with a T2 rocket Kestrel and he was only cannon fodder. The breacher with the second drone even has the same firepower at more range than an incursus. So where the hell is THIS balance????? Incursus is a lot slower, everybody knows that active shield tanking is better than acive armor tanking, incursus needs cap for weapons, breacher not and breacher has the same dmg with much more range plus damage type choosing.
Do you want a new Rifter????? Minmatar really need a nerf. And that new Breacher is FAR better than any incursus which was really good atm.
P.s After the HM nerf I would like to have artillery with dmg bonus on the drake. Then even Minmatar have the best long range weapon. Rofl. That is not rebalance. That is comedy. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
585
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 05:56:00 -
[426] - Quote
I love the tristan...
2 x 125mm railgun II caldari navy thorium Unstable small nuet
1mn limited mwd Faint warp disrupter Meta iv tracking disrupter optimal range disruption script
200mm steel plate II Dcu ii Adaptive plating ii
Powegrid rig x2 Trimark
8x warrior ii
You can drop the second pg rig for a plus 3 pg implant... Then go for a second trimark I was playing with this on duality and it was boss...
Td are op atm make it so only specialty ships can use scripts... That will make them less fotm Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
78
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 08:47:00 -
[427] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Xindi Kraid wrote:mkint wrote:So... Tristan is going to be a better drone boat than ishkur? Same bandwidth plus drone bonuses. That's my concern as well. === I have no problem with the Tristan not having missile bonuses, the current version doesn't either, but it would be nice to keep the missile hardpoints. The Gallente wouldn't have a dedicated missile boat, but they would have something they could fit missile launchers to just the same as it is now. On a side note, please take a look at the nemesis, it has the same PG and less grid than Manticore, so there's no reason to use one. Also Roden is the one that makes Missile Ships, please change the Manufacturer from Duvolle. The tristan is pretty bad compared to the Ishkur. Ishkur can actually fit a decent tank. I'd say the Ishkur is pretty bad compared to the Tristan.... why the heck would you pay 30 times the price for a bit more tank / dps, but less speed? It doesn't even get a drone tracking bonus.
A bit more? I t has like three times the tank and twice the dps... |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
22
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 13:09:00 -
[428] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Xindi Kraid wrote:mkint wrote:So... Tristan is going to be a better drone boat than ishkur? Same bandwidth plus drone bonuses. That's my concern as well. === I have no problem with the Tristan not having missile bonuses, the current version doesn't either, but it would be nice to keep the missile hardpoints. The Gallente wouldn't have a dedicated missile boat, but they would have something they could fit missile launchers to just the same as it is now. On a side note, please take a look at the nemesis, it has the same PG and less grid than Manticore, so there's no reason to use one. Also Roden is the one that makes Missile Ships, please change the Manufacturer from Duvolle. The tristan is pretty bad compared to the Ishkur. Ishkur can actually fit a decent tank. The Tristan has less tank, but the drones themselves have less staying power and are better able to take on smaller targets.
The ishkur has a drone capacity bonus (reaches parity with Tristan at AF III) and bonuses to the guns. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
121
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 14:12:00 -
[429] - Quote
The Tristan will be awesome. Dat hull tank bros. Dat hull tank |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Random Rule Conform Corpname A Point In Space
52
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 14:59:00 -
[430] - Quote
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:I really hoped winmatar wouldn-¦t be winmatar any more after the rebalance but it doesn-¦t seem so. Minmatar should be more about guerilla. Fast, hard hitting and fragile ships. What do we get instead? The race with the fastest ships, by far best weapon systems (ac need no cap plus dmg type choosing, even artillery will be soon far better than HM, especially with THIS alpha) and best active tanking. Additionally: Active tanking with shields means they dont-¦t loose any speed. Okay what don-¦t Minmatar have? They have everything. Instead I would decrease the Minmatar ship tank really instead giving them the same tank like the other ships or at least decrease their resistances more. Minmatar ships already have speed like hell and CCP completely underestimates this factor. There is some reason that drake is breakfast for drams and daredevils.... And what Gallente would really need: Decrease the speed penalty of armor active tank rigs. Incursus which needs speed because of blasters and has active armor tanking needs to decrease his speed for better active armor tanking. Minmatar which already have crazy speed don-¦t need to do this and have additionaly the better weapon system which additionally doesn-¦t even need cap in comparison to blasters.
here we go again... i begin to wonder what you could possibly want from the changes. minmatar ships so bad, nobody wants to fly them anymore?
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote: Now let us compare Incursus and the new Breacher: Tank given from the hulls is the same. Breacher is faster, shield tanking in comparison to Incursus doesn-¦t make him slower, the weapons need no cap and it can choose damage. Plus Breacher has one drone more. PLUS: Has anybody considered what a punch a rocket beacher has? I have killed Dagan some weeks ago with another toon with a T2 rocket Kestrel and he was only cannon fodder. The breacher with the second drone even has the same firepower at more range than an incursus. So where the hell is THIS balance????? Incursus is a lot slower, everybody knows that active shield tanking is better than acive armor tanking, incursus needs cap for weapons, breacher not and breacher has the same dmg with much more range plus damage type choosing.
how can you bring the kestrel as an argument when comparing incursus and breacher? how the kestrel performs in pve has no relevance when comparing the balance between incursus and breacher in pvp. btw; you did note the 4th launcher on the kestrel the breacher is missing? this means the kestrel has more rocket power. if you count in the second light drone (which only makes sense when brawling, makes no sense when kiting and using light missiles) breacher will at max have the same output as the kestrel. you also need good skills in missiles and drones.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote: Do you want a new Rifter????? Minmatar really need a nerf. And that new Breacher is FAR better than any incursus which was really good atm.
P.s After the HM nerf I would like to have artillery with dmg bonus on the drake. Then even Minmatar have the best long range weapon. Rofl. That is not rebalance. That is comedy.
no comment ...
so i actually went on duality and tested breacher in both light missile and rocket set up.
long range / short range 3x arbalest light missile / 3x arbalest rocket launcher
1mn limited mwd / 1mn limited mwd small asb (7 charges) / medium asb (7 charges) warp disruptor t2 / warp scrambler meta 4 em resistance amp. t2 / em resistance amp. t2
balist. control t2 / balist. control t2 nanofiber t2 / cpu t2 adaptive nano plating t2 (was out of fitting) / dcu t2
small web drones / hobgob t2
rigs: em & therm resi t1 + bay loading accel. t1
my missile skills are just lacking the specialisation. drone skills are lvl4 i used cn faction rockets and missiles.
the long range setup was pushing 62 dps (web drones - no dmg) according to ingame fitting tool and boosting around 75 hp every two seconds (7 charges...). i managed to pop a brawling thrasher by orbiting around 20 km, and a tristan with the same trick. though it took some time. a rail cormo literally vaporized me and he was tanking me with buffer quite comfortably. this set up was very fast but once you get tackled or the asb charges go out (which takes only 14 seconds if youre not careful) youre toast.
the brawling setup was dishing out ~ 100 dps with drones (you can actually rebuild it on tq now without drones, as the breacher has already a 5% bonus for em, therm and kin) and boosted 200 hp every 3 seconds (again 7 cycles). i won barely (half in armor, another 2 blown and i would have been gone) against ccp foxfour in a kestrel, afterwars he told me he forgott to activate his prob mod. this setup is as tanky as you can get without sacrificing all of your dmg. a activetanked kestrel or a long range with web would probably be your death.
both setups where totally outclassd by assault frigs and died horribly without doing any meaningfull dmg.
winter is coming and i hope to get more time for testing against all the other combat and attack frigs. so far i think breacher is good but has definitaly its weak spots. the active tank will make it more and more vulnerable as the number of combatants is rising. no buffer there. to put it in other words of a dear friend of mine:
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:Minmatar should be more about guerilla. Fast, hard hitting and fragile ships.
you got exactly what you wanted ;) and the harder they hit, the squishier they will get. |
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Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 21:15:00 -
[431] - Quote
Quote:here we go again... i begin to wonder what you could possibly want from the changes. minmatar ships so bad, nobody wants to fly them anymore?
Well Minmatar do not know that but actually other races haven-¦t that op ships so that there is a ton off ships other races don-¦t use.... Ever tried to build something like a range Harbinger that can be equal with an arty cane? Well try it and have fun with frustration. We engaed an arty cane fleet some days ago. Of course we jumped there and there until we engaged them at gate because at range we would be annon fodder. Well. Cane is faster than even amarr and most caldari cruisers so wemanaged to kill one or two until they were at optimal range and away from us and as always we had to chicken out. Actually there is almost anything to engage an arty cane or nano arty sfi. Drakes are okay here. But even drakes have probs with 3200m/s sfi. Interceptors are dying like flies before they get close, sfi are burning with 3200 or even 3500m/s away to alpha us and so on. The combination of awesome speed plus awesome range plus awesome alpha plus close range damage where railguns only can dream of hitting anything is tooooo much. Really.
Quote:btw; you did note the 4th launcher on the kestrel the breacher is missing? this means the kestrel has more rocket power. if you count in the second light drone (which only makes sense when brawling, makes no sense when kiting and using light missiles) breacher will at max have the same output as the kestrel. you also need good skills in missiles and drones.
That is it. Breacher has as Brawler almost kestrel firepower but is alot more fast and has better tank. Okay super it has less range. I did not compare the breacher directly with Kestrel. I compared it directly to incursus.
|
hercules fitch
Don't Regret Until Next Keg
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 22:50:00 -
[432] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Marcus Gideon wrote:19 pages?
TLDR
Why is the Incursus, which grows up to be a droning Ishkur, considered a gunboat...
While the Tristan, which grows up to be a bomber, using drones now?
This does not make sense... No problem. Have some imagination. The engineers just gutted the inards of the drone bay and support infrastructure and constructed missile and warhead storage and support infrastructure in its place, and vice versa, or whatever. nbd. The new nemesis is not the same hull as the tristan anyway (at least atm). PLEASE IMMEDIATELY FIX THE POOR AGILITY ON THE NEMESIS BTW As for tristans plopping one sentry and camping, i doubt it would be seen much. It is a lot more training to field a sentry than light drones. And if one is going to sentry camp a gate just do it with vexors. 3 sentries > 1 sentry. As long as you have some dedicated tackle on the gate the scan res advantage of the tristans means nothing.
We have actually done the Vexors and an Ishtar with sentries thing with some success, with good bait tackle...but I was thinking the Tristan hull to be even cheaper, and with enough of them, just more funny than practical. I enjoy playing around with such silly ideas, the isk loss of a tristan would be even stupidly less than the vexor hull... which is my only loss of the month so far, too, mind you, and it wasn't much. If it doesn't sound like a good idea, you need moar booze! |
Ark Anhammar
EVE University Ivy League
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 08:41:00 -
[433] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ok I gonna bring this up here, how many gallente pilots are tired of drone/hybrid combo ships. They are the only race that doesn't get seperate weapon platform ships. Every drone ship gets a hybrid bonus (myrmidon aside) it would be nice if the drone ships were drone ships and the hybrid ships were hybrid ships. Give the drone ships drone hp bonuses, tracking bonuses, optimum range bonuses, damage bonuses, mwd speed bonuses or logistic/ewar bonuses. I can relate to this sentiment. The closest neighbor I think that demonstrates this is Caldari, in that you have ships which are PURE missile ships and ships that are PURE hybrid platforms. I'd be nice to have more Gallente ships that'd follow this model.
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Nagarythe Tinurandir
Random Rule Conform Corpname A Point In Space
52
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 10:12:00 -
[434] - Quote
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:Quote:here we go again... i begin to wonder what you could possibly want from the changes. minmatar ships so bad, nobody wants to fly them anymore? Well Minmatar do not know that but actually other races haven-¦t that op ships so that there is a ton off ships other races don-¦t use.... Ever tried to build something like a range Harbinger that can be equal with an arty cane? Well try it and have fun with frustration.
what makes you believe i only have a minmatar char? does it make you feel better, that i also play amarr and like the amarrian ships? do you have a minmatarian char and have played it from frig to battleship or is your opinion only build on your pvp losses?
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote: We engaged an arty cane fleet some days ago. Of course we jumped there and there until we engaged them at gate because at range we would be annon fodder. Well. Cane is faster than even amarr and most caldari cruisers so wemanaged to kill one or two until they were at optimal range and away from us and as always we had to chicken out. Actually there is almost anything to engage an arty cane or nano arty sfi. Drakes are okay here. But even drakes have probs with 3200m/s sfi. Interceptors are dying like flies before they get close, sfi are burning with 3200 or even 3500m/s away to alpha us and so on. The combination of awesome speed plus awesome range plus awesome alpha plus close range damage where railguns only can dream of hitting anything is tooooo much. Really.
are you talking about these canes http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17527614 ? there is no way these were going ~ 3000m/s . with a full rack of speed implants and lvl5 navigation skills this fit goes not quite 1500. so you think they doubled their speed with off grid boosters? they flew their canes with a fitting mod and t1 weapons. so i doubt they had all needed skills at 4 or 5. i could give you numbers on dmg as well but qe are getting of track. just let me add: when you engange a camping arty cane blob and you know about it, why are you doing it with a lot of faction frigs & cruisers and destroyers ( i mean destroyers..)?
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
That is it. Breacher has as Brawler almost kestrel firepower but is alot more fast and has better tank. Okay super it has less range. I did not compare the breacher directly with Kestrel. I compared it directly to incursus.
i argue that the breacher has a better tank. breacher tank is more suited for small scale (1v1 maybe up to 3v3) but the instant the kestrel brings a logi support it is in the advantage. the higher speed of the breacher only helps when keeping distance. brawling is about hammering it out at close distance. you can savely assume that you are going to be webbed and / or scrambled. even unwebbed in close distance the ships cant go for full speed, so the rockets will not have a hard time applying dmg (you can check that for your self with any rocket boat and a reaper with an ab for example. let it orbit between 3 and 5 km. when brawling against blaster boat you have to assume webs and we are inside web range- beside that, small blasters track like crazy. so where exactly was superb speed during brawling helpful? if you want to elaborate on your incursus - breacher comparision, please do. but please include some real testing not just the old and too much repeated minmatar is winmatar argument. fyi it does not help to solve anything. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
80
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 15:19:00 -
[435] - Quote
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:Quote:here we go again... i begin to wonder what you could possibly want from the changes. minmatar ships so bad, nobody wants to fly them anymore? Well Minmatar do not know that but actually other races haven-¦t that op ships so that there is a ton off ships other races don-¦t use.... Ever tried to build something like a range Harbinger that can be equal with an arty cane? Well try it and have fun with frustration. We engaed an arty cane fleet some days ago. Of course we jumped there and there until we engaged them at gate because at range we would be annon fodder. Well. Cane is faster than even amarr and most caldari cruisers so wemanaged to kill one or two until they were at optimal range and away from us and as always we had to chicken out. Actually there is almost anything to engage an arty cane or nano arty sfi. Drakes are okay here. But even drakes have probs with 3200m/s sfi. Interceptors are dying like flies before they get close, sfi are burning with 3200 or even 3500m/s away to alpha us and so on. The combination of awesome speed plus awesome range plus awesome alpha plus close range damage where railguns only can dream of hitting anything is tooooo much. Really. Quote:btw; you did note the 4th launcher on the kestrel the breacher is missing? this means the kestrel has more rocket power. if you count in the second light drone (which only makes sense when brawling, makes no sense when kiting and using light missiles) breacher will at max have the same output as the kestrel. you also need good skills in missiles and drones. That is it. Breacher has as Brawler almost kestrel firepower but is alot more fast and has better tank. Okay super it has less range. I did not compare the breacher directly with Kestrel. I compared it directly to incursus.
TL DR version, You're bad and you want ccp to make things easier for you.
The breacher does not have kestrel firepower, its dps is pretty damn ******.. And its not better than the incursus.. It will outperform it in some niche situations but in most situations the incursus has more sustained tank and dps.
The breacher is damn nice and should stay the way it is.
The kestrel should become less lolkite <.< |
Colman Dietmar
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 16:34:00 -
[436] - Quote
I personally am happy that Tristan is becoming a drone boat. I love the hull design and always dreamed of it becoming a strong combat ship. And I also love drones, so this is kinda perfect thing for me. =)
As for the concerns with hull legacy towards T2, Ishkur isn't quite a drone boat with the mixed bonuses and no drone damage bonus. It's more like a "more droney incursus". So Ishkur being based on Incursus hull makes perfect sense to me, unlike the idea of gallente having a missile boat.
I'd even go as far as to try turning Nemesis into a drone boat, perhaps giving it ~25 m3 drone bay instead of the torps and some bonus like "-80% drone bay volume requirement for heavy attack drones" so that instead of using missiles it would get up close and drop those ogres upon its target. |
Kaikka Carel
White syndicate Wormhole Holders
75
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 17:42:00 -
[437] - Quote
NOOOO!!!
You're making the same mistake again!
Please for Christ's sake do not decrease the total amount of slots for drone boats.
Drones don't web, they don't increase ship's survivabilitty or mobility or any kind of utility. They can only deal damage or jamm.
The slot loss is already regretable on Myrmidon because you have to drop a gun to put that bonused warfare link on it which no other Battlecruiser has to do. Not to mention the utility people could've squiezed out of that extra high.
But a frigate with a 3/3/3 layout is going to lack a lot!
So either make drones web/scram/neut decently and give them regular t2 hp and ressists or stop cutting drone boats' slots. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
884
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 22:18:00 -
[438] - Quote
Didn't you say you had something special in mind for the Rifters' second bonus?
Any word on that?
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1715
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 22:22:00 -
[439] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote: Didn't you say you had something special in mind for the Rifters' second bonus?
Any word on that?
I phrased it ambiguously, my bad. I meant that we had something special in mind for the minmatar active tank bonus on frigates. That was the Breacher. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
107
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 00:05:00 -
[440] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Bloodpetal wrote: Didn't you say you had something special in mind for the Rifters' second bonus?
Any word on that?
I phrased it ambiguously, my bad. I meant that we had something special in mind for the minmatar active tank bonus on frigates. That was the Breacher. Have you considered changing the rifter's second bonus to something else? Right now, every single small autocannon boat has a damage and tracking bonus, which has resulted in the rifter and slasher being kind of samey. Except that the slasher is generally superior thanks to higher speed, lower sig, and 4 mid slots. Right now there is almost no reason to use the rifter over any the other ships in its class. Maybe change tracking to a falloff bonus (ala nustabber) or ROF/second damage bonus (bringing it in line with the rupture->hurricane->tempest line of ships)? Please.
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Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
22
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 11:42:00 -
[441] - Quote
well the rifter can armour tank maybe if that side was boosted a little maybe like the wolf is swap its slots to 4 lows ans perhaps a split weapon system bonus so a missile damage bonus instead of the tracking bonus |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
884
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 11:50:00 -
[442] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Bloodpetal wrote: Didn't you say you had something special in mind for the Rifters' second bonus?
Any word on that?
I phrased it ambiguously, my bad. I meant that we had something special in mind for the minmatar active tank bonus on frigates. That was the Breacher.
I barely see rifters anymore. With the merlin getting a resist bonus, the punisher getting a resist bonus and the tristan getting a extreme repping bonus... Seems like the Breacher and the Shield Boost should be wrapped up with them while the Rifter should be wrapped in with the Attack frigate roles?
(i'm trying to bring this back around to the breacher and talk about the rifter, and not derail ;p ) Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
299
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 12:24:00 -
[443] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Have you considered changing the rifter's second bonus to something else? Right now, every single small autocannon boat has a damage and tracking bonus, which has resulted in the rifter and slasher being kind of samey... Tell you what, how about you yield the tracking to Amarr and then you slaves can have the weapon cap bonus .. deal?
Muhahahahahaha. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
88
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:55:00 -
[444] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Bloodpetal wrote: Didn't you say you had something special in mind for the Rifters' second bonus?
Any word on that?
I phrased it ambiguously, my bad. I meant that we had something special in mind for the minmatar active tank bonus on frigates. That was the Breacher. I barely see rifters anymore. With the merlin getting a resist bonus, the punisher getting a resist bonus and the Incursus getting a extreme repping bonus... and all of them performing very well now (and the Rifter seemingly left in the dust frankly) Seems like the Breacher and the Shield Boost should be wrapped up with them as Combat frigates while the Rifter should be wrapped in with the Attack frigate roles? (i'm trying to bring this back around to the breacher and talk about the rifter, and not derail ;p ) Also, as I talk about this, I realize that you may have changed the 4 basic "roles" you had in mind? Since you've doubled up on combat frigates for each race. Attack, Combat, Bombardment, Support ? Is the bombardment role replaced conceptually at this point, since many aren't getting missile roles at all?
I dunno, im sort of enjoying the rifter being complete **** ^^ |
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
10
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 05:22:00 -
[445] - Quote
I think you are wrong. I still see Rifters and they are still really good ships. But atm everybody is flying kitey attack ships. No wonder. Most people have flown the Rifter for years because it was the one and only non faction T1 frig and I really do not wonder that they want to fly something else now. Rifter is still a very good ship with really good tank and awesome firepower. |
Nyack
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 07:44:00 -
[446] - Quote
So any news if they are going to revisit the combat version of inties now that the t1 versions are buffed? Imho the only viable one is the taranis?
scratch that i found an answer..
Quote:Don't think ceptors will be able to make it into Winter, but we'll get a look at them as soon as we can. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
113
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 08:13:00 -
[447] - Quote
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:I think you are wrong. I still see Rifters and they are still really good ships. But atm everybody is flying kitey attack ships. No wonder. Most people have flown the Rifter for years because it was the one and only non faction T1 frig and I really do not wonder that they want to fly something else now. Rifter is still a very good ship with really good tank and awesome firepower.
For what purpose would you pick a rifter over another frigate right now?
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Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
11
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Posted - 2012.10.01 08:41:00 -
[448] - Quote
Quote:For what purpose would you pick a rifter over another frigate right now?
Well if you really think it is soooo bad then try the punisher. Rolf. That is total fail. Rifter still has a really good punch and has even tanking abilities that slicers haven-¦t the cap to kill them. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
113
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 08:46:00 -
[449] - Quote
Punisher is fine. It is more than fine, in fact, and there are good reasons to pick a punisher over another t1 frigate for certain circumstances.
Also, if you can't kill a rifter with a slicer, you should probably stop flying frigates. |
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
11
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 09:06:00 -
[450] - Quote
Killing a Rifter with rat support in a slicer is always a cap issue. And yes my cap skills are good. |
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Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
26
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Posted - 2012.10.01 13:07:00 -
[451] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Also, if you can't kill a rifter with a slicer, you should probably stop flying frigates.
This.
I've been trying to find a 'role' for the rifter post patch.....but everytime I find myself back looking at the slasher. The 'roles' in minmatar frig line are blurred atm.
Brawl (Puni, Merlin, Incursus, Rifter) : Traits: Damage bonus + tanking bonus (except rifter) Attack (Exec, Condor, Atron, Slasher) : Traits: Damage bonus + some other bonus (Lol Exec) Combat (Tormentor, Kestrel,Tristan, Breacher): Traits: drones/missiles + some other bonus (why does breacher have tanking bonus? wasn't it a trait of brawl frigs)
Make rifter 3 4 3 with rof and tanking bonus (like incursus) (...and say goodbye to firetail) Make breacher 4 3 3 with rocket rof and missile explosion radius
This might make the 'roles' more clear.....I don't know if we really want these lines so clear cut though.
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Nagarythe Tinurandir
Random Rule Conform Corpname A Point In Space
53
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Posted - 2012.10.01 15:23:00 -
[452] - Quote
Deerin wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:Also, if you can't kill a rifter with a slicer, you should probably stop flying frigates. This. I've been trying to find a 'role' for the rifter post patch.....but everytime I find myself back looking at the slasher. The 'roles' in minmatar frig line are blurred atm. Brawl (Puni, Merlin, Incursus, Rifter) : Traits: Damage bonus + tanking bonus (except rifter) Attack (Exec, Condor, Atron, Slasher) : Traits: Damage bonus + some other bonus (Lol Exec) Combat (Tormentor, Kestrel,Tristan, Breacher): Traits: drones/missiles + some other bonus (why does breacher have tanking bonus? wasn't it a trait of brawl frigs) Make rifter 3 4 3 with rof and tanking bonus (like incursus) (...and say goodbye to firetail) Make breacher 4 3 3 with rocket rof and missile explosion radius This might make the 'roles' more clear.....I don't know if we really want these lines so clear cut though.
hm, weather rifter or breacher gets a tanking bonus isn't really important, is it? both are combat frigs, and each race seems to get a tanky one and another one, but the rifter really should be more distinct to slasher. maybe make it an arty platform (as was planned for the burst before it was changed to be a logi frig) ?
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Rakkas Kanenald
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 23:52:00 -
[453] - Quote
All these T1 frigate changes have been great, I do agree that the Rifter needs some love, it just is too unfocused now not really doing any job as well as the other options available to you, and not versatile enough to keep up. Are there plans for faction frigate rebalance? As much as I love seeing the t1s become awesome, I get sad everytime I try to compare my firetail, to them |
Mirei Jun
Right to Rule Test Friends Please Ignore
42
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 05:23:00 -
[454] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
Sure would love to see that tracking bonus added to the Ishkur... Might be nice to just give it 50m^3 base drone bay and replace the expanded bay bonus per level. The HP per level bonus alone is somewhat silly, as it stands now.
Damage wise this ship will actually do about the same as the current Ishkur.
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Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
86
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 19:21:00 -
[455] - Quote
Just here to support the new Kestrel and Breacher. [SMUG]-áSORRY for party rocking! v0v
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Kaikka Carel
White syndicate Wormhole Holders
84
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 12:37:00 -
[456] - Quote
Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
1. Less slots total than other ships of its class. Is going to be very stressing in this type of class.
2. Least amount of fitting resources again. Did you calculate the numbers or just gave gimped stats to gallente by an old habbit?
3. Tracking bonus for 2 turrets... Daresay its a waste just like a rep bonus on Brutix.
4. Slot layout. Given that the drones deal damage overtime I'd like to have some slots to fill the tank in. Unfortunately there are only 3 available both in mid and lows. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
120
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 12:40:00 -
[457] - Quote
lol at those that think the Punisher / Rifter aren't ****.
Punisher might not be terrible, but has 2 mids so its crap.
Rifter is just bad all around, pretty much any frig rapes it quite easily. |
Lavitakus Bromier
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 15:05:00 -
[458] - Quote
Can we see the tormentor rebalanced kinda like the tristin. With some minor changes.
2turrets 20 drone bandwidth 50 drone bay and a.bonus to drone speed and damage. But not to health.
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Goldensaver
Vorbild Industries Inc. State Section 9
26
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 02:55:00 -
[459] - Quote
Kaikka Carel wrote:Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
1. Less slots total than other ships of its class. Is going to be very stressing in this type of class.
2. Least amount of fitting resources again. Did you calculate the numbers or just gave gimped stats to gallente by an old habbit?
3. Tracking bonus for 2 turrets... Daresay its a waste just like a rep bonus on Brutix.
4. Slot layout. Given that the drones deal damage overtime I'd like to have some slots to fill the tank in. Unfortunately there are only 3 available both in mid and lows.
I can see the reason for you complaints. I don't think the Tristan's going to turn out like they expected it to. But I see your point number 2, and laugh, especially since it follows right on the heels of number 1. 2 is the way it is because of 1. With less slots overall, you don't need as much powergrid or CPU in order to fit the thing fully. Do I agree the slot layout, number of slots, etc works? I don't know. I do know these are supposed to be "long range damage support" ships, so you're not supposed to have lots of tank. |
Johnny Bloomington
Justified Chaos
22
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 19:22:00 -
[460] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Just here to support the new Kestrel and Breacher.
Use the manicore body for the Kestrel! |
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Sang-in Tiers
Hedion University Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 23:12:00 -
[461] - Quote
AAWWWWWW! Is your dear rifter not completely made out of win in comparison to the other races anymore? For some reason I cant feel any sympathy. |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
304
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 23:22:00 -
[462] - Quote
That it loses to other frigs is just a footnote to how badly it loses to the Slasher, and talking about that might make you more sympathetic to people who complain about it: Punisher/Merlin/Incursus/Rifter are supposed to win on tank+gank when compared with Executioner/Condor/Atron/Slasher. Presently none of them have a gank advantage. Presently all of them have a really substantial tank advantage - except for the Rifter. |
Davo OHno
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 23:32:00 -
[463] - Quote
Question for anyone really.
With the given launcher changes, will this have any effect on the T2 versions (Stealth Bombers)? |
Dato Koppla
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
80
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 06:18:00 -
[464] - Quote
Davo OHno wrote:Question for anyone really. I'm sure it's been asked, but wasn't going to scan 24 pages of posts.
With the given slot changes, will this have any effect on the T2 version layouts(Stealth Bombers)?
There's been some talk but nothing definite, what is most likely is t2 ships are going to be balanced on an entirely different basis rather than just across the board improvements. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
126
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 09:05:00 -
[465] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:That it loses to other frigs is just a footnote to how badly it loses to the Slasher, and talking about that might make you more sympathetic to people who complain about it: Punisher/Merlin/Incursus/Rifter are supposed to win on tank+gank when compared with Executioner/Condor/Atron/Slasher. Presently none of them have a gank advantage. Presently all of them have a really substantial tank advantage - except for the Rifter.
They aren't supposed to win on gank. Attack frigs are supposed to be ganky.
Merlin/incursus are fine..
Puni rifter are utter **** though. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1905
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 12:16:00 -
[466] - Quote
Davo OHno wrote:Question for anyone really. I'm sure it's been asked, but wasn't going to scan 24 pages of posts.
With the given slot changes, will this have any effect on the T2 version layouts(Stealth Bombers)?
None of the T1 changes we do in our balance pass will necessarily apply to the T2 versions. We may carry some stuff on if it's appropriate but that will be on a case by case basis. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
70
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 13:44:00 -
[467] - Quote
The tristan might be more viable like this, previously it was very difficult in the early stages of skill training to get a tristan's orbit "sweet" enough to inflict daamge proportionately. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 13:47:00 -
[468] - Quote
well hopefully they will remove the hybrid bonus for a drone bonus on the pair of them And sort out the vexor dronebay/bandwidth 50/100 would be nice |
Valleria Darkmoon
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
29
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 00:46:00 -
[469] - Quote
Kaikka Carel wrote:Tristan: Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level 10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2) Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric Signature radius: 41 (-1) Cargo capacity: 140
1. Less slots total than other ships of its class. Is going to be very stressing in this type of class.
2. Least amount of fitting resources again. Did you calculate the numbers or just gave gimped stats to gallente by an old habbit?
3. Tracking bonus for 2 turrets... Daresay its a waste just like a rep bonus on Brutix.
4. Slot layout. Given that the drones deal damage overtime I'd like to have some slots to fill the tank in. Unfortunately there are only 3 available both in mid and lows.
A dev mentioned in another thread (the attack cruiser thread i believe) that drone centered ships always have one fewer slot than ships with few or no drones. This is because the damage can quickly get out of hand when they have a larger than typical drone bay AND the ability to fit the full gank of other ships.
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Aglais
Liberation Army BricK sQuAD.
140
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 02:52:00 -
[470] - Quote
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
A dev mentioned in another thread (the attack cruiser thread i believe) that drone centered ships always have one fewer slot than ships with few or no drones. This is because the damage can quickly get out of hand when they have a larger than typical drone bay AND the ability to fit the full gank of other ships.
But the Tristan can't. Honestly, I think it should get a fourth low slot. It's only got two guns, and it's not very fast. As it stands it's an almost-kiter that'll be sending out drones at silly long ranges, but then probably die because something else got too close too fast because it couldn't stay away. |
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Dato Koppla
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
89
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 08:00:00 -
[471] - Quote
Drones at the frigate level are especially hard to use as enemy frigates can eliminate drones in the blink of an eye forcing you to choose between microing them in and out of your drone bay (which will probably lead to them just shooting you while the majority of your dps is wasted) or let the enemy shoot them and lose most of your dps. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
125
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 10:23:00 -
[472] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:Drones at the frigate level are especially hard to use as enemy frigates can eliminate drones in the blink of an eye forcing you to choose between microing them in and out of your drone bay (which will probably lead to them just shooting you while the majority of your dps is wasted) or let the enemy shoot them and lose most of your dps. You are forgetting that drones are also a very potent anti-frigate weapon for all larger hulls. That's the reason why gallente drone ships always have guns : while the ennemy focus on drones, he's not focusing on you, and you melt him. By the time your drones are dead, he is dead too. Ever faced an ishkur in a frigate ? As fast as you can kill the drones, you still die doing it, and the ishkur is still there shooting at you. |
Dato Koppla
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
89
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 11:23:00 -
[473] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:Drones at the frigate level are especially hard to use as enemy frigates can eliminate drones in the blink of an eye forcing you to choose between microing them in and out of your drone bay (which will probably lead to them just shooting you while the majority of your dps is wasted) or let the enemy shoot them and lose most of your dps. You are forgetting that drones are also a very potent anti-frigate weapon for all larger hulls. That's the reason why gallente drone ships always have guns : while the ennemy focus on drones, he's not focusing on you, and you melt him. By the time your drones are dead, he is dead too. Ever faced an ishkur in a frigate ? As fast as you can kill the drones, you still die doing it, and the ishkur is still there shooting at you.
Yes the Ishkur does well in frigate battles for the reason you mentioned, but don't forget that is at point blank and more of the ishkurs dps comes from blasters, any decent pilots knows that if you can keep out of the Ishkurs blaster range, you can easily eliminate its drones and kite it to death, if you're point blank brawling a blaster Ishkur and shooting its drones you're doing it wrong. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
125
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 12:25:00 -
[474] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:You are forgetting that drones are also a very potent anti-frigate weapon for all larger hulls. That's the reason why gallente drone ships always have guns : while the ennemy focus on drones, he's not focusing on you, and you melt him. By the time your drones are dead, he is dead too. Ever faced an ishkur in a frigate ? As fast as you can kill the drones, you still die doing it, and the ishkur is still there shooting at you. Yes the Ishkur does well in frigate battles for the reason you mentioned, but don't forget that is at point blank and more of the ishkurs dps comes from blasters, any decent pilots knows that if you can keep out of the Ishkurs blaster range, you can easily eliminate its drones and kite it to death, if you're point blank brawling a blaster Ishkur and shooting its drones you're doing it wrong. And what will you do against a railguns ishkur ? :-) BTW, its drones have friends in the dronebay, only waiting for their turn.
And I'm pretty sure you can have most of your dps with blasters too on this tristan. You don't need a lot of blasters to outdps some lightdrones.
And still, a lot of large ships manage to defend themselves with only one flight of light drones. Either most frigate pilots are bad or light drones are pretty good at killing frigates already ? Droneboats also had always been renowned for their frigate killing capabilities, and that's certainly not because of medium or heavy drones.
And yes, kiting is the death of blaster boats, and that shouldn't be different, nothing new here and that's not the debate. Any competent blaster ship pilot know it BTW, and will do everything to trap it's target in its bloody claws. That's the blasters game. |
Sard Caid
Gunpoint Diplomacy
57
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 03:46:00 -
[475] - Quote
I wasn't able to play with these as much as I'd like, however they feel very powerful with great damage output and amazing projection for frigates. I'd like to spend a few more hours with each of the new frigate's match ups, though I can tentatively say that they're quite dominant versus the current iterations of combat and attack frigates. I'll say more if Duality can go up again soonGäó. |
Jet Lazuli
Perkone Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.10.31 07:48:00 -
[476] - Quote
I know this question isn't THAT important. But.... wondering if the Kestrel will get the same revamped ship model that the Manticore has ATM? |
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
105
|
Posted - 2012.10.31 11:48:00 -
[477] - Quote
Why would it ? The new model was specifically for torpedo launchers. |
Johnny Bloomington
Justified Chaos
33
|
Posted - 2012.10.31 14:48:00 -
[478] - Quote
Jet Lazuli wrote:I know this question isn't THAT important. But.... wondering if the Kestrel will get the same revamped ship model that the Manticore has ATM? I second this! The model could be slightly modified for different hard points. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
160
|
Posted - 2012.10.31 16:00:00 -
[479] - Quote
Jet Lazuli wrote:I know this question isn't THAT important. But.... wondering if the Kestrel will get the same revamped ship model that the Manticore has ATM?
No... No... No no no no no no no
No
NO! |
Johnny Bloomington
Justified Chaos
33
|
Posted - 2012.10.31 19:42:00 -
[480] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Jet Lazuli wrote:I know this question isn't THAT important. But.... wondering if the Kestrel will get the same revamped ship model that the Manticore has ATM? No... No... No no no no no no no No NO!
and Why.... why...Why why why why why why why
Why
WHY? |
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Ginger Achura
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 18:39:00 -
[481] - Quote
I love where this thread is headed at the moment...
"For hundreds of years my community has enjoyed cheddar cheese and pineapple on a stick" - William Ulsterman |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
168
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 19:36:00 -
[482] - Quote
Johnny Bloomington wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Jet Lazuli wrote:I know this question isn't THAT important. But.... wondering if the Kestrel will get the same revamped ship model that the Manticore has ATM? No... No... No no no no no no no No NO! and Why.... why...Why why why why why why why Why 1. the Kestrel model is fine, it looks great.
2. The ships were intentionally made to look different.. the SB's are supposed to be a bit more badass.
WHY? |
Sean Parisi
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
19
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 16:02:00 -
[483] - Quote
I am wondering if theoretically a few Tristan's in a gang could utilize sentry drones effectively. I have always been fascinated with the concept of a sniping ship that relies specifically on sentry drones to be effective. Though I am not sure if it would be viable for the Tristan due to its ability to only field one drone. Theory crafter's is this just a pipe dream for the Tristan? |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
46
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 00:42:00 -
[484] - Quote
after having a play around with the kestral i am more positive than ever it need to lose its velocity bonus simple put its slinging missles to far. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 02:07:00 -
[485] - Quote
serras bang wrote:after having a play around with the kestral i am more positive than ever it need to lose its velocity bonus simple put its slinging missles to far.
A 10% bonus is a bit strong especially for T1 but they keep giving them out to missile ships anyway.... doesn't help that missiles range is OP to begin with they will need a serious range nerf in order to use TE/TC's. |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
46
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 11:08:00 -
[486] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:serras bang wrote:after having a play around with the kestral i am more positive than ever it need to lose its velocity bonus simple put its slinging missles to far. A 10% bonus is a bit strong especially for T1 but they keep giving them out to missile ships anyway.... doesn't help that missiles range is OP to begin with they will need a serious range nerf in order to use TE/TC's.
hml aint op there only going about 90 someone said (havent tested myself will do soon though) but yeah light missles and ive always said it (even with fighting the initial nerf) shouldnt be going 70 on a sniper ship why they increased the range on light missles in the first place i had no idea a 50km snipping frig was just fine. but the fact that caldari ships will all use te/tc isnt that big of a deal as we will still need some resemblance of shield. and its not like the missle dps out ranks guns any time soon. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 14:00:00 -
[487] - Quote
serras bang wrote:Harvey James wrote:serras bang wrote:after having a play around with the kestral i am more positive than ever it need to lose its velocity bonus simple put its slinging missles to far. A 10% bonus is a bit strong especially for T1 but they keep giving them out to missile ships anyway.... doesn't help that missiles range is OP to begin with they will need a serious range nerf in order to use TE/TC's. hml aint op there only going about 90 someone said (havent tested myself will do soon though) but yeah light missles and ive always said it (even with fighting the initial nerf) shouldnt be going 70 on a sniper ship why they increased the range on light missles in the first place i had no idea a 50km snipping frig was just fine. but the fact that caldari ships will all use te/tc isnt that big of a deal as we will still need some resemblance of shield. and its not like the missle dps out ranks guns any time soon.
90 is about 35km more than most guns can hope to get near..... then add a TE/TC bonus maybe 20% extra you see were im going with this? |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
183
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 22:03:00 -
[488] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:I am wondering if theoretically a few Tristan's in a gang could utilize sentry drones effectively. I have always been fascinated with the concept of a sniping ship that relies specifically on sentry drones to be effective. Though I am not sure if it would be viable for the Tristan due to its ability to only field one drone. Theory crafter's is this just a pipe dream for the Tristan?
In theory, perhaps. In practice, not really.
Then again, "sniper" may take on a slightly different meaning with respect to frigates.
As for a sniper sentry layout - tricky but doable at "sniper" type ranges. A domi can push out over 550 DPS with wardens at over 130km range (over 190km double-falloff) and higher with other sentries at closer ranges (bouncers = over 640 DPS at over 100km w/42km single falloff... ~188km max "love tap" range).
So a sniper type sentry layout is doable but at the frigate size? To control a sentry, you need to be able to target the ship -AND- have a drone control range capable of reaching that far. Not an easy composite for a frigate to pull off.
Interesting concept through and if you change the definition of "sniper" to the roughly 50km range, it could be accomplished. Just don't expect stellar numbers from it like you can get packing Drone Damage mods in the lows of a domi. They make a healthy difference in damage output. |
Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.11.12 16:57:00 -
[489] - Quote
Will the Tristan hull redesign glimpsed at Fanfest be introduced in Retribution? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
88
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 01:33:00 -
[490] - Quote
Messed with tristans, found them to be lacking in powergrid, tank, speed and useful bonuses. I must be missing something here, everyone seems to think it's going to be really great. |
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Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 05:57:00 -
[491] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Messed with tristans, found them to be lacking in powergrid, tank, speed and useful bonuses. I must be missing something here, everyone seems to think it's going to be really great.
Tank and speed are in line with the fact that it is a T1 frigate supposed to fight at mid range mostly. The lack of powergrid (and CPU) makes for some interesting choices for the fitting. You basically have to choose between guns or tanks and find a way to fit DDAs (well at least one) with tight CPU. Personally, I see that again as a way to limit it because it is T1 (even if you already need a ton of skills to fly it properly).
I do agree though that the tracking speed bonus to the turret is underwhelming.
With only 2 turret hardpoints and no damage boost for it (and not enough PG to use a nos or a neut on that 3rd high slot) you have very poor reasons to fit it as a brawler, especially with that speed. Railgun seem like the logical choice ... especially since a tracking bonus helps it too. The problem is that 2 railguns without a damage boost will deal at best 20% of your DPS (and you sacrificed your tank to get that) which de facto makes this bonus underwhelming. Somewhat, I guessed they wanted this bonus not to be too good anyway but right now you really have little reasons not to go for a tank and ACs (to deal with drones).
Going for an optimal range or a direct damage boost would give you a better reason to go for railguns IMO and would still be limited by the 2 turrets hardpoints. Add to that a small boost to PG and/or CPU and it would be perfect for some easier fitting.
Oh and people are excited about it because it is a frigate droneboat ... and as such arguably better than an Ishkur. It's all about the drones not the rest of the hull :) |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
195
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 08:13:00 -
[492] - Quote
Sog Ardun wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Messed with tristans, found them to be lacking in powergrid, tank, speed and useful bonuses. I must be missing something here, everyone seems to think it's going to be really great. Tank and speed are in line with the fact that it is a T1 frigate supposed to fight at mid range mostly. The lack of powergrid (and CPU) makes for some interesting choices for the fitting. You basically have to choose between guns or tanks and find a way to fit DDAs (well at least one) with tight CPU. Personally, I see that again as a way to limit it because it is T1 (even if you already need a ton of skills to fly it properly). I do agree though that the tracking speed bonus to the turret is underwhelming. With only 2 turret hardpoints and no damage boost for it (and not enough PG to use a nos or a neut on that 3rd high slot) you have very poor reasons to fit it as a brawler, especially with that speed. Railgun seem like the logical choice ... especially since a tracking bonus helps it too. The problem is that 2 railguns without a damage boost will deal at best 20% of your DPS (and you sacrificed your tank to get that) which de facto makes this bonus underwhelming. Somewhat, I guessed they wanted this bonus not to be too good anyway but right now you really have little reasons not to go for a tank and ACs (to deal with drones). Going for an optimal range or a direct damage boost would give you a better reason to go for railguns IMO and would still be limited by the 2 turrets hardpoints. Add to that a small boost to PG and/or CPU and it would be perfect for some easier fitting. Oh and people are excited about it because it is a frigate droneboat ... and as such arguably better than an Ishkur. It's all about the drones not the rest of the hull :)
Not saying I disagree with some of your opinions on your post, but I wanted to point out that "Tiers" are going away for "roles". So the thought of needing more skills just to fly it, or its fitting being worse because of its tier are supposedly going by the wayside. Time to deprogram ourselves of that notion. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
188
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 09:35:00 -
[493] - Quote
Sog Ardun wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Messed with tristans, found them to be lacking in powergrid, tank, speed and useful bonuses. I must be missing something here, everyone seems to think it's going to be really great. Tank and speed are in line with the fact that it is a T1 frigate supposed to fight at mid range mostly. The lack of powergrid (and CPU) makes for some interesting choices for the fitting. You basically have to choose between guns or tanks and find a way to fit DDAs (well at least one) with tight CPU. Personally, I see that again as a way to limit it because it is T1 (even if you already need a ton of skills to fly it properly). I do agree though that the tracking speed bonus to the turret is underwhelming. With only 2 turret hardpoints and no damage boost for it (and not enough PG to use a nos or a neut on that 3rd high slot) you have very poor reasons to fit it as a brawler, especially with that speed. Railgun seem like the logical choice ... especially since a tracking bonus helps it too. The problem is that 2 railguns without a damage boost will deal at best 20% of your DPS (and you sacrificed your tank to get that) which de facto makes this bonus underwhelming. Somewhat, I guessed they wanted this bonus not to be too good anyway but right now you really have little reasons not to go for a tank and ACs (to deal with drones). Going for an optimal range or a direct damage boost would give you a better reason to go for railguns IMO and would still be limited by the 2 turrets hardpoints. Add to that a small boost to PG and/or CPU and it would be perfect for some easier fitting. Oh and people are excited about it because it is a frigate droneboat ... and as such arguably better than an Ishkur. It's all about the drones not the rest of the hull :)
It has three low slots, meh fittings and no tank bonus
That is a bad tank. |
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 10:03:00 -
[494] - Quote
Zyella Stormborn wrote:Not saying I disagree with some of your opinions on your post, but I wanted to point out that "Tiers" are going away for "roles". So the thought of needing more skills just to fly it, or its fitting being worse because of its tier are supposedly going by the wayside. Time to deprogram ourselves of that notion.
The fact that they are going for roles (and a differenciation between combat and attack) does not change the fact that there are tech 1 frigates and tech 2 frigates.
It is also relevant to notice that you can fly an incursus a lot easier than a tristan with low SP (which is not an issue since the incursus does the job well enough and you can still use a catalyst too) which has nothing to do about their roles but about the fact that guns are faster to level than drones. It was much more an observation than a judgement on that end.
The fitting on the tristan is indeed ridiculously tight, just like the new destroyer though, to be honest, some tech 1 ships are balanced using this and generally speaking tech 2 ships have more PG/CPU. Again, just an observation.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a buff to the fitting, I just feel like as the best drone frig (and only real tech 1 one) it is ok to have some limitations to your fitting.
As I said if you want a tank on a Tristan, you have to sacrifice your guns. The gank is more important than the tank for this kind of ship anyway. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
88
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 19:25:00 -
[495] - Quote
Come on CCP, 50% rep bonus + more powergrid. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
188
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 20:33:00 -
[496] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Come on CCP, 50% rep bonus + more powergrid.
would be boss. |
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 21:58:00 -
[497] - Quote
1/ The incursus already have a rep bonus. Giving a rep bonus on both gallente ships would be poor design IMO (especially since the Tristan is supposed to have more a focus on firepower than the incursus).
2/ DDAs are too strong on this frigate to go for armor active tanking anyway. Going for a shield active tanking only works if you forgo tackling modules and stay at range but then again I'm not sure using an active tank makes much sense in that situation and the first point still stands.
Seriously though, why do you guys think this hull need a tanking bonus?
2 DDAs and your hobs II can do up to 146DPS with a max range of 60km. Isn't that enough to make up for having poor tanking options and make you want to fit a frigate around this obvious strength? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
88
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 22:38:00 -
[498] - Quote
Sog Ardun wrote:1/ The incursus already have a rep bonus. Giving a rep bonus on both gallente ships would be poor design IMO (especially since the Tristan is supposed to have more a focus on firepower than the incursus).
2/ DDAs are too strong on this frigate to go for armor active tanking anyway. Going for a shield active tanking only works if you forgo tackling modules and stay at range but then again I'm not sure using an active tank makes much sense in that situation and the first point still stands.
Seriously though, why do you guys think this hull need a tanking bonus?
2 DDAs and your hobs II can do up to 146DPS with a max range of 60km. Isn't that enough to make up for having poor tanking options and make you want to fit a frigate around this obvious strength?
Active shield tanking is invalid because I require all three mids for prop and tackle before I even consider fitting for short range, which is the only range I'd fit a tristan for because of the obvious problems drones have against moving targets.
DDAs are bad on pretty much all drone ships except guristas. 3 lows is not enough for damage mods and a tank. It's not even enough for a tank imo when you have no bonus. 1 DDA is overly fragile. 2 DDAs is just plain ********. You do all this and it's not even good at doing damage. I'm kind of past the point where 'oh my god drones are so cool!' makes up for it having ****-poor actual damage and stuff compared to everything else and having to dock up to buy more drones after every fight because people pop them for fun. Basically I'd like it to have a rep bonus because the incursus is badass and I want another overpowered frigate with a slightly different flavour, lol. Drone damage or something would also be acceptable, just anything other than turret tracking for 2 very low-PG turrets. It seems to me that they've been very careful not to give it decent speed or sig or fitting or slots for some reason, like it's at risk of being overpowered, when really it's not even good. |
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.14 00:23:00 -
[499] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote: Active shield tanking is invalid because I require all three mids for prop and tackle before I even consider fitting for short range, which is the only range I'd fit a tristan for because of the obvious problems drones have against moving targets.
DDAs are bad on pretty much all drone ships except guristas. 3 lows is not enough for damage mods and a tank. It's not even enough for a tank imo when you have no bonus. 1 DDA is overly fragile. 2 DDAs is just plain ********. You do all this and it's not even good at doing damage. I'm kind of past the point where 'oh my god drones are so cool!' makes up for it having ****-poor actual damage and stuff compared to everything else and having to dock up to buy more drones after every fight because people pop them for fun. Basically I'd like it to have a rep bonus because the incursus is badass and I want another overpowered frigate with a slightly different flavour, lol. Drone damage or something would also be acceptable, just anything other than turret tracking for 2 very low-PG turrets. It seems to me that they've been very careful not to give it decent speed or sig or fitting or slots for some reason, like it's at risk of being overpowered, when really it's not even good.
Firstly, thanks for the honest reply. It seems obvious to me that the main point of disagreement we have is about the role the Tristan is supposed to be used as.
IMO, the Tristan is supposed to be the Gallente DPS frig using our faction preferred weapon system : drones. Drones clearly have issues and their damage application depends on a lot more variables than any other weapon systems. Regardless, all the drone issues (especially for PvP) should not be corrected by the Tristan hull but by fixing some of those broken mechanisms.
You seem to want to use Tristan as a brawler (a role an Incursus fulfill perfectly indeed). It is your right but I really don't think CCP intends to make the Tristan as effective as an Incursus in that role and that they actually should. They are several ways to apply damage as a frigate and brawling is just one of them.
Personnaly, I don't see the incursus and the Tristan thrive in the same situations. While the incursus is excellent for solo-PvP for example, I really don't think the tristan will thrive in this situation but I could be wrong (basically kite him and kill the drones first and you can be sure he won't kill you). On the other hand, the Tristan will be effective for PvE and small fleets IMO. Since every faction has two frigates designed for combat, they should thrive in different situations IMO so that's alright.
The problem is that with those fitting options, I don't see how the turret tracking bonus can be usefull. I would much prefer a turret range bonus (to fit with the idea that normal range damage projection does not apply to this frigate) than that tracking bonus. Optimal or falloff depends on the weapon of choice they want to use with it.
Change that and give it a small boost to PG/CPU (even 2-3PG and 5 CPU would help a lot) and I would find it a lot more balanced. Obviously, a bigger boost to PG or CPU would help too but I'm not sure it is needed if we can get a real second bonus. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
188
|
Posted - 2012.11.14 10:11:00 -
[500] - Quote
Sog Ardun wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote: Active shield tanking is invalid because I require all three mids for prop and tackle before I even consider fitting for short range, which is the only range I'd fit a tristan for because of the obvious problems drones have against moving targets.
DDAs are bad on pretty much all drone ships except guristas. 3 lows is not enough for damage mods and a tank. It's not even enough for a tank imo when you have no bonus. 1 DDA is overly fragile. 2 DDAs is just plain ********. You do all this and it's not even good at doing damage. I'm kind of past the point where 'oh my god drones are so cool!' makes up for it having ****-poor actual damage and stuff compared to everything else and having to dock up to buy more drones after every fight because people pop them for fun. Basically I'd like it to have a rep bonus because the incursus is badass and I want another overpowered frigate with a slightly different flavour, lol. Drone damage or something would also be acceptable, just anything other than turret tracking for 2 very low-PG turrets. It seems to me that they've been very careful not to give it decent speed or sig or fitting or slots for some reason, like it's at risk of being overpowered, when really it's not even good.
Firstly, thanks for the honest reply. It seems obvious to me that the main point of disagreement we have is about the role the Tristan is supposed to be used as. IMO, the Tristan is supposed to be the Gallente DPS frig using our faction preferred weapon system : drones. Drones clearly have issues and their damage application depends on a lot more variables than any other weapon systems. Regardless, all the drone issues (especially for PvP) should not be corrected by the Tristan hull but by fixing some of those broken mechanisms. You seem to want to use Tristan as a brawler (a role an Incursus fulfill perfectly indeed). It is your right but I really don't think CCP intends to make the Tristan as effective as an Incursus in that role and that they actually should. They are several ways to apply damage as a frigate and brawling is just one of them. Personnaly, I don't see the incursus and the Tristan thrive in the same situations. While the incursus is excellent for solo-PvP for example, I really don't think the tristan will thrive in this situation but I could be wrong (basically kite him and kill the drones first and you can be sure he won't kill you). On the other hand, the Tristan will be effective for PvE and small fleets IMO. Since every faction has two frigates designed for combat, they should thrive in different situations IMO so that's alright. The problem is that with those fitting options, I don't see how the turret tracking bonus can be usefull. I would much prefer a turret range bonus (to fit with the idea that normal range damage projection does not apply to this frigate) than that tracking bonus. Optimal or falloff depends on the weapon of choice they want to use with it. Change that and give it a small boost to PG/CPU (even 2-3PG and 5 CPU would help a lot) and I would find it a lot more balanced. Obviously, a bigger boost to PG or CPU would help too but I'm not sure it is needed if we can get a real second bonus.
Kiting with just drones doesn't work well.. The drones die.. fast..I think i could live with the Tristan having 4 lows and some more fittings.. But i would like it even better if it got a tanking bonus.
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Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
165
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Posted - 2012.11.14 12:11:00 -
[501] - Quote
Sog Ardun wrote:The problem is that with those fitting options, I don't see how the turret tracking bonus can be usefull. I would much prefer a turret range bonus (to fit with the idea that normal range damage projection does not apply to this frigate) than that tracking bonus. Optimal or falloff depends on the weapon of choice they want to use with it.
Change that and give it a small boost to PG/CPU (even 2-3PG and 5 CPU would help a lot) and I would find it a lot more balanced. Obviously, a bigger boost to PG or CPU would help too but I'm not sure it is needed if we can get a real second bonus. Railguns *love* tracking bonus. In fact, I'd prefer a tracking bonus than a range bonus. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
189
|
Posted - 2012.11.14 12:31:00 -
[502] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Sog Ardun wrote:The problem is that with those fitting options, I don't see how the turret tracking bonus can be usefull. I would much prefer a turret range bonus (to fit with the idea that normal range damage projection does not apply to this frigate) than that tracking bonus. Optimal or falloff depends on the weapon of choice they want to use with it.
Change that and give it a small boost to PG/CPU (even 2-3PG and 5 CPU would help a lot) and I would find it a lot more balanced. Obviously, a bigger boost to PG or CPU would help too but I'm not sure it is needed if we can get a real second bonus. Railguns *love* tracking bonus. In fact, I'd prefer a tracking bonus than a range bonus.
Its two unbonused guns.. enjoy your extra 3 dps from the tracking bonus. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
165
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Posted - 2012.11.14 13:02:00 -
[503] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Its two unbonused guns.. enjoy your extra 3 dps from the tracking bonus. Hum, I forgot the only two turret thing.
Though, when orbiting at range, I found tracking to be a lot more useful than dps with the Atron, and the dps is poor anyway at this range, so unless you want blasters, you are better with tracking IMO. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
171
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 01:36:00 -
[504] - Quote
What the Tristan needs more of is tank. It's slow and it only has two turrets, so increasing turret damage doesn't make any sense. It's not going to be a very good kiter because again, it's slow. It needs something other than DPS to back that up, in my opinion. What would suit it well would be a fourth low slot and some more grid. Sometimes drone ships having one less slot than everything else works. Here, not so much. Further, it's not like a dronegank Tristan is going to be super OP, because it's going to have probably no tank, it won't be the fastest by any margin meaning it may have difficulty kiting, and you can kill drones. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
193
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Posted - 2012.11.15 02:31:00 -
[505] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Its two unbonused guns.. enjoy your extra 3 dps from the tracking bonus. Hum, I forgot the only two turret thing. Though, when orbiting at range, I found tracking to be a lot more useful than dps with the Atron, and the dps is poor anyway at this range, so unless you want blasters, you are better with tracking IMO.
....... You don't orbit with railguns unless you really ******* have too. |
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.11.15 11:41:00 -
[506] - Quote
Aglais wrote:What would suit it well would be a fourth low slot and some more grid. Sometimes drone ships having one less slot than everything else works. Here, not so much.
Except that the Tristan is not missing a mid or low slot but a turret/high slot (which is perfectly fine).
The Tormentor is 3/3/4 but the Punisher is 4/2/4. The Merlin is 3/4/3 and the Kestrel is 4/4/2. Finally, the Rifter is 4/3/3 and the Breacher 3/4/3. Since the Incursus is 3/3/4 the Tristan was supposed to be 4/3/3.
You should stop comparing the Tristan with the Incursus. The design is much closer to a Rifter honestly. Both of them have 3 mids, 3 lows with nearly the same PG/CPU (the Rifter do have a PG advantage because AC are so efficient on that end). Last I heard, nobody was complaining that the Rifter needed a tanking bonus though ...
The tristan is about the same ... just not as fast or with the ridiculous signature radius ... but it compensates with the damage projection of the drones, a longer targeting range and better agility (minmatars are supposed to be faster anyway).
Maybe it could be a bit faster but the tanking bonus is not suited. |
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
125
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Posted - 2012.11.15 19:34:00 -
[507] - Quote
Just compare the new Tristan to a Rifter and you will see that it is totally viable. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
201
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Posted - 2012.11.15 19:58:00 -
[508] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:Just compare the new Tristan to a Rifter and you will see that it is totally viable.
So.. If you compare it to a really ****** ship.. It seems alright? Dear god... |
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 02:29:00 -
[509] - Quote
Tell me if I'm wrong but basically you would like the new Tristan to be like the navy Comet.
A fast brawler with 4 low slots and not too dependant on his drones (even if they are not negligeable) fo his damage output.
Too bad this ship already exists :) |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
203
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 03:31:00 -
[510] - Quote
Sog Ardun wrote:Tell me if I'm wrong but basically you would like the new Tristan to be like the navy Comet.
A fast brawler with 4 low slots and not too dependant on his drones (even if they are not negligeable) fo his damage output.
Too bad this ship already exists :)
Highlighted and bolded the important part to stress the fact. A full flight of 5 drones on a frigate is nothing to laugh at. Although they do not get a ship damage bonus, with full skills they are still doing a +135% damage base, without factoring in a DDA if any. And with 25% tracking speed bonus, those drones will not be getting out flown by zippy little ships as much.
By way of comparison, that is the same amount of drones the new Amarr destroyer gets (it does get a drone damage bonus though) and only 1 less low slot atm. |
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Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.11.16 03:44:00 -
[511] - Quote
Actually, I was talking about the 3 drones used by the Comet.
People have said (with some good reasons) that drone damage is not really reliable and that is why they would rather have a more balanced damage output (so like the Comet or the Ishkur but I did not want to bring that one just yet ^^).
The new tristan is neither of them and I guess it is not supposed to do the same things.
It is clearly a droneboat IMO (others are brawlers with drones) which has its upside (like the pure DPS potential) and downside (well drones are drones ...). That is why I'm excited to fly this new frigate even if I'm sure it will only be effective in niche roles.
That said, I'm still not convinced with the turret tracking bonus and the fitting could be made a bit easier. I just think the Gallente has enough frigate brawlers (with or without drones) and I'm against adding a bonus that would make it one. |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
203
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 04:35:00 -
[512] - Quote
I know how you feel Sog.
With Amarr soon to have yet 2 more drone boats (dessie and Prophecy), and drones in the state that they currently are, its a risky proposition. They have plans to overhaul drones AI, and UI, ... but they have not given a date, and I am guessing it is at least a year down the road.
All that being said, I have always been a pet *****, and I will definitely have a few of these in my hangar. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
203
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 11:15:00 -
[513] - Quote
Sog Ardun wrote:Actually, I was talking about the 3 drones used by the Comet.
People have said (with some good reasons) that drone damage is not really reliable and that is why they would rather have a more balanced damage output (so like the Comet or the Ishkur but I did not want to bring that one just yet ^^).
The new tristan is neither of them and I guess it is not supposed to do the same things.
It is clearly a droneboat IMO (others are brawlers with drones) which has its upside (like the pure DPS potential) and downside (well drones are drones ...). That is why I'm excited to fly this new frigate even if I'm sure it will only be effective in niche roles.
That said, I'm still not convinced with the turret tracking bonus and the fitting could be made a bit easier. I just think the Gallente has enough frigate brawlers (with or without drones) and I'm against adding a bonus that would make it one.
Can't it be a droneboat AND not have a bad tank? |
Lavitakus Bromier
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2012.11.16 18:12:00 -
[514] - Quote
+1 drones lack alpha. sad really poor little guys do all they can.but it's never.enough |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 09:55:00 -
[515] - Quote
Anyone else of the opinion that the Rifter should be a arty platform, since the Breacher has taken the brawler role, and that the Slasher is just a better version of what the Rifter was.
I just want the Rifter to have a niche advantage again, even if a niche disadvantage is part of the deal |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
33
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 10:41:00 -
[516] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote:Anyone else of the opinion that the Rifter should be a arty platform, since the Breacher has taken the brawler role, and that the Slasher is just a better version of what the Rifter was. I just want the Rifter to have a niche advantage again, even if a niche disadvantage is part of the deal
I like this idea...changing tracking bonus to optimal bonus would work nicely.
|
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
4
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Posted - 2012.11.23 11:28:00 -
[517] - Quote
Deerin wrote: I like this idea...changing tracking bonus to optimal(or even better....falloff) bonus would work nicely.
Would have to be falloff, maybe even a more pg and a 4th turret bit lets not trip our selves. im glad im understood |
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 13:59:00 -
[518] - Quote
To be honest, tracking is more of an arty bonus than AC. Falloff is definatly more of an upgrade to AC than arty. Optimal is the only clear way to make it a better arty without making it possibly too good as a brawler.
That said, I don't consider the Breacher to have taken the brawler role. IMO it can do both with 3 low slot and a bonus to damage. Sure the 35 km optimal range means you can't snipe with missiles but you can still kite pretty well. |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 14:20:00 -
[519] - Quote
Sog Ardun wrote:To be honest, tracking is more of an arty bonus than AC. Falloff is definatly more of an upgrade to AC than arty. Optimal is the only clear way to make it a better arty without making it possibly too good as a brawler.
That said, I don't consider the Breacher to have taken the brawler role. IMO it can do both with 3 low slot and a bonus to damage. Sure the 35 km optimal range means you can't snipe with missiles but you can still kite pretty well.
It can brawl with rockets and two warrior 2's, gets about 110 dps and can tank like a beast with dual MASB, and its fast.
My thinking with the Rifter is to model it on the Stabber, and since its tank is weak compared to the majority of its fellow combat frigs, a falloff bonus and an extra turret could tip the odds back a bit, hell i would accept a nurf to EHP for a bit of variety.
Also it should be able to use AC and Arty, just like the Merlin can go blaster or rail.
The best thing is it can go arty atm, its just tight on fittings and low dps, so if they shifted the balance to long range and away from brawling maybe it will get a more specific following, and the Incursus pilots can keep the close range domination going
P.S so glad no one posted the "OMG RIFETR NO GOOD SO WINMITAR WHINE RAGE!!!!!!!" that crops up now and then. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
220
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 19:03:00 -
[520] - Quote
It is true that the rifter needs some love. Its a free kill for any frig out there.
The slasher is better at scram kiting/sig tanking. The breacher will be a ten times better brawler than the rifter is.
Yea i can see the rifter as an arty platform being pretty cool, i like arties. |
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Vayn Baxtor
Community for Justice Paradox Trust
1
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Posted - 2012.11.24 05:09:00 -
[521] - Quote
A seperate idea I had was to put the Rifter and other distinct frigs of its bracket to a seperate "Corvette" bracket. I know it is annoying to be coming with new names but since this tiericide is putting things upside-down, I do think we should broaden the horizon. Disregarding the actual "size/ship" term, I think it would be easier to give the Rifter as well as others seperate bonuses as well as not having the apparent need to be compared with the new kings like Slasher etc.
Let's face it, Slasher and similar frigates are here to stay as true tacklers. Whatever may be, Rifter is now a shadow as the other frigates can literally do the job better.
In this case, maybe we should consider Rifter follow a slightly heavier combat role; as suggested just above with arties.
I hate to come with this ridiculous one, but maybe we could have some sort of flexibility... You know, Rifter and others of its sort being a "T1.25"... 'ish?
To be between that of an ordinary T1.0 and the more effective (T1.5) faction frig; but Rifter etc not being faction frigs and just a tad stronger than ordinary T1s such as slasher. I know the line is thin but that's what I think has to happen.
It would give some leeway for the Rifter and similar ones to have their advantages without having too much worry.
The easiest (but likely the most pain-in-the-veldspar) suggestion would be giving an AB bonus to Rifter specifically, but that is where the cascade of headaches would start. Then again, it would give it that interesting aspect of AB-speed tanking. It would still die, but it would have a special feature unlike Slasher/Breacher - So in short, trade the Tracking Bonus for a decent Afterburner Speed bonus.
I would add a lot more bonuses and penalties, but that would require a tiericide within a tiericide xD! |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 06:51:00 -
[522] - Quote
Vayn Baxtor wrote:A seperate idea I had was to put the Rifter and other distinct frigs of its bracket to a seperate "Corvette" bracket. I know it is annoying to be coming with new names but since this tiericide is putting things upside-down, I do think we should broaden the horizon. Disregarding the actual "size/ship" term, I think it would be easier to give the Rifter as well as others seperate bonuses as well as not having the apparent need to be compared with the new kings like Slasher etc.
Let's face it, Slasher and similar frigates are here to stay as true tacklers. Whatever may be, Rifter is now a shadow as the other frigates can literally do the job better.
In this case, maybe we should consider Rifter follow a slightly heavier combat role; as suggested just above with arties.
I hate to come with this ridiculous one, but maybe we could have some sort of flexibility... You know, Rifter and others of its sort being a "T1.25"... 'ish?
To be between that of an ordinary T1.0 and the more effective (T1.5) faction frig; but Rifter etc not being faction frigs and just a tad stronger than ordinary T1s such as slasher. I know the line is thin but that's what I think has to happen.
It would give some leeway for the Rifter and similar ones to have their advantages without having too much worry.
The easiest (but likely the most pain-in-the-veldspar) suggestion would be giving an AB bonus to Rifter specifically, but that is where the cascade of headaches would start. Then again, it would give it that interesting aspect of AB-speed tanking. It would still die, but it would have a special feature unlike Slasher/Breacher - So in short, trade the Tracking Bonus for a decent Afterburner Speed bonus.
I would add a lot more bonuses and penalties, but that would require a tiericide within a tiericide xD!
|
Vayn Baxtor
Community for Justice Paradox Trust
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 07:47:00 -
[523] - Quote
I know about the sizes. Destroyers are not essentially the right size either, but this is a scifi game, so one can play around with terms and stuff freely :).
Might as well could push the Slasher and other attack frigates to corvette since those are actually "small and witty" ships - But that doesn't help much either. The idea was just to get the Rifter and such out of the bracket so they can be their own thing. |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 07:47:00 -
[524] - Quote
After playing around in Eve Hanger and making some fits, plus by talking to others and you people here on the forums im content that the Rifter needs an extra turret and extra PG/CPU to be an competitive ranged combat ship. The Rifter should be able to hit 15k with AC's before tracking mods are used, and Arty's should be able to hit 20k+before tracking mods are used. This would lead me to recommend a Falloff bonus instead of a Tracking, i would also replace the Damage bonus for a ROF bonus so that Alpha is not to excessive.
Brawling in this Rifter should be possible and viable but no more than acceptable at best, with the more dedicated brawlers still excelling over it at close range combat. this can be done by either leaving the rest of the Rifters stats the same and relying on its sub par tank to melt whenever brawling is chosen, or to go even further and lower its EHP to make it an all gank no tank ship.
This all just in the hope that a dev will see this and either say
A) your right and we should change this
Or
B) man up and enjoy the new Breacher |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 07:49:00 -
[525] - Quote
In my mind it goes like this overall.
The Attack frigs (Condor, Slasher, Atron, Executioner) would more likely prey on Close Combat frigs (Incursus, Merlin, Breacher, Punisher) since they often lack webs and normally fit close range guns. The Close Combat Frigs (Incursus, Merlin, Breacher, Punisher) would more likely prey on Ranged Combat frigs (Tormentor, Kestrel, Tristan, Rifter) due to there more equal speed, mediocre tank and due to being able to themselves tank there damage. The Ranged Combat frigs (Tormentor, Kestrel, Tristan, Rifter) would more likely prey on Attack frigs (Condor, Slasher, Atron, Executioner) because of there weak tanks, weakish damage and able to themselves project their damage well on fast moving targets.
That my theory of how it should be anyway, each ship should have a preferred prey and a predator to be weary of. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
33
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 10:36:00 -
[526] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote: The Rifter should be able to hit 15k with AC's before tracking mods are used, and Arty's should be able to hit 20k+before tracking mods are used. Define hitting. Right now rifters can hit to 15k without tracking mods....but you could also call that a gentle touch instead of hitting.
If you mean dealing proper damage to 15k with AC's before any tracking mods, that would be quite overpowered. |
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
139
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 12:45:00 -
[527] - Quote
A role as dedicated "gunboat" in comparison to Breacher/Slasher sounds neat.
For that I'd change up to 3 things:
1)swap tracking bonus to 10%/lvl falloff bonus
2) slightly more pg for the occasional arty fit
3) change projectile damage bonus to either 7,5%/lvl OR give a 7,5%/lvl bonus to missile damage
The first is kind of mandatory, the Slasher is the new highspeed-brawler with the tracking bonus, there's no need for the Rifter to have one. The second and third would be nice to have if the first change is not enough.
P.S: The falloff bonus would translate into barrage ranges of 1,5+12km for 200mms and 1,7+18km for 200mms with one TE 280mms with closerange ammo would go to 7,5+16,5 and 8,6+21 with TE |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 13:06:00 -
[528] - Quote
Deerin wrote: Define hitting. Right now rifters can hit to 15k without tracking mods....but you could also call that a gentle touch instead of hitting.
If you mean dealing proper damage to 15k with AC's before any tracking mods, that would be quite overpowered.
20k would be deep falloff with AC's, getting anymore range should require tracking mods and/or rigs, which would sacrifice speed/tank. i would like to point out that the new Kestrel.
[Kestrel]
[High Slots] Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket
[Med Slots] 1MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
[Low Slots] Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
[Rigs] Small Bay Loading Accelerator I Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Small Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I
This fit can get about 120 dps (on paper) out to 20k with navy rockets and around 100 dps (on paper) out to 30k with javlin.
If i was to base what sort of combat the new Rifter would fill i would base it on this, both would have four guns, a range bonus and a damage bonus.
i also knocked up a kiting Tormentor as an example
[Tormentor]
[High Slots] Small Focused Pulse Laser II - Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II - Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II - Scorch S
[Med Slots] 1MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Tracking Computer II - Optimal Range Script
[Low Slots] Heat Sink II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Co-Processor II
[Rigs] Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
[Drones] Warrior II x 2
Similar idea, but with lasers and there sexy optimal. 130 dps (on paper) with an 17k optimal, 24 dps comes from the 2 drones
This is what i think the Rifter should be tailored to, if anyone with and good understanding of falloff could pipe up and share the knowledge |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 13:09:00 -
[529] - Quote
Sheynan wrote: P.S: The falloff bonus would translate into barrage ranges of 1,5+12km for 200mms and 1,7+18km for 200mms with one TE 280mms with closerange ammo would go to 7,5+16,5 and 8,6+21 with TE
Thank you
Any idea what damage it would be doing at say, 15k with no gyro just its 5% damage per level? |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
178
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 13:14:00 -
[530] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote:Deerin wrote: Define hitting. Right now rifters can hit to 15k without tracking mods....but you could also call that a gentle touch instead of hitting.
If you mean dealing proper damage to 15k with AC's before any tracking mods, that would be quite overpowered.
20k would be deep falloff with AC's, getting anymore range should require tracking mods and/or rigs, which would sacrifice speed/tank. i would like to point out that the new Kestrel. [Kestrel] [High Slots] Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket [Med Slots] 1MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron [Low Slots] Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II [Rigs] Small Bay Loading Accelerator I Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Small Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I This fit can get about 120 dps (on paper) out to 20k with navy rockets and around 100 dps (on paper) out to 30k with javlin. If i was to base what sort of combat the new Rifter would fill i would base it on this, both would have four guns, a range bonus and a damage bonus. i also knocked up a kiting Tormentor as an example [Tormentor] [High Slots] Small Focused Pulse Laser II - Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II - Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II - Scorch S [Med Slots] 1MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Tracking Computer II - Optimal Range Script [Low Slots] Heat Sink II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Co-Processor II [Rigs] Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I [Drones] Warrior II x 2 Similar idea, but with lasers and there sexy optimal. 130 dps (on paper) with an 17k optimal, 24 dps comes from the 2 drones This is what i think the Rifter should be tailored to, if anyone with and good understanding of falloff could pipe up and share the knowledge And what do you do with inherent AC qualities like no cap use, damage selection, good tracking and hilarious easyness of fitting ? |
|
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 13:21:00 -
[531] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Rick Rymes wrote:Deerin wrote: Define hitting. Right now rifters can hit to 15k without tracking mods....but you could also call that a gentle touch instead of hitting.
If you mean dealing proper damage to 15k with AC's before any tracking mods, that would be quite overpowered.
20k would be deep falloff with AC's, getting anymore range should require tracking mods and/or rigs, which would sacrifice speed/tank. i would like to point out that the new Kestrel. [Kestrel] [High Slots] Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket Rocket Launcher II - Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket [Med Slots] 1MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron [Low Slots] Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II [Rigs] Small Bay Loading Accelerator I Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Small Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I This fit can get about 120 dps (on paper) out to 20k with navy rockets and around 100 dps (on paper) out to 30k with javlin. If i was to base what sort of combat the new Rifter would fill i would base it on this, both would have four guns, a range bonus and a damage bonus. i also knocked up a kiting Tormentor as an example [Tormentor] [High Slots] Small Focused Pulse Laser II - Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II - Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II - Scorch S [Med Slots] 1MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Tracking Computer II - Optimal Range Script [Low Slots] Heat Sink II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Co-Processor II [Rigs] Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I [Drones] Warrior II x 2 Similar idea, but with lasers and there sexy optimal. 130 dps (on paper) with an 17k optimal, 24 dps comes from the 2 drones This is what i think the Rifter should be tailored to, if anyone with and good understanding of falloff could pipe up and share the knowledge And what do you do with inherent AC qualities like no cap use, damage selection, good tracking and hilarious easyness of fitting ?
Rockets have no cap, and damage selection, there "tracking" is ok and i never have problems fitting them.
Plus to get that sexy falloff range you need to use barrage which locks and AC's damage type, where as the rockets with long range ammo get greater range, tracking and damage selection. AC's will make up tho with ferocious dps at close range and the Rifter hull will be far faster.
Im not sure how much damage rocket do in reality compared to on paper but then using javlin would remedy that. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
225
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 20:48:00 -
[532] - Quote
You don't rocket the Kestrel.. You just don't.. |
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 21:36:00 -
[533] - Quote
Giving the Rifter a fall-off bonus will firstly and mostly boost its damage output at the edge of scrambling range which is the way you are supposed to play the breacher. The AC already has far more falloff range than any other turret. It really does not need help on that end.
If you want to make the Rifter a better arty platform which will not be played like a Breacher 90% of the time you have to give it an optimal range bonus (and I do like the idea about the rate of fire instead of damage to limit alpha damage).
Secondly, both the Kestrel and the Breacher can fit rockets but also missiles. The Kestrel in particular will probably be more played as a missile vessel than a rocket one (because if it get caught in scrambler range it's dead anyway). The breacher only issue with a missile build is its target lock range but I'm pretty sure there will be some kiting fit out there which will not brawl.
Thirdly, your predator/prey ideal vastly depends on the weapon type used by your attack/ranged combat frigs and usually is not as simple. You should not discount the fact that an attack frig will always have the choice of fleeing too. It's true though that all of these classes have some sort of advantages that they have to abuse to beat the others (tank, manoeuvrability or damage projection). Right now, the Rifter does not fit well there and will probably be outperform by a Breacher in about every role.
|
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 06:38:00 -
[534] - Quote
You are right that the Kestrel will more likely use light missiles, my aim was to show how effective close range weapons are/would be on these platforms, so as to justify the use of AC's as well as Arty's. There should not be such a limit that the Rifter has to be an arty boat, mealy tailored to it.
Also the rocket Kestrel will still rock since all its damage is in disruptor range with fitting to spare. but that is what i mean by not cocooning a ship to one fit, the Incursus is a amazing brawler, but is also an excellent rail kiter, attack frigs can operate within scram range and out depending on the fit allowing lots of diversity in how a ship is played.
My "Each ship has prey and predators" diagram is not perfect due to being so vague, and Attack frigate will still be able to run away, but the idea isn't to catch them permanently (That is what T2 Interceptors do) it is that in general the Ranged Combat frigates damage projection would make it harder to survive long for an Attack frigate and that they can not simply orbit outside of there guns, which they can with the Close Combat frigates.
You summed up the three types of frigate quite well.
Tank, Maneuverability or Damage projection.
Maybe the way to look at the new Rifter concept is to see it as the son of the Stabber and the wolfs little bro.
Im all up for the Breacher being the brawler, there are already 3 turret brawlers out there a missile platform will add a nice mixup. |
FFKefka
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 14:02:00 -
[535] - Quote
Well, I've been struggling to figure out a fit that would make the Tristan work with its bonuses despite its fitting shortcomings and thought I would throw this out there to get an opinion on it. I used EFT but figured in the new CPU/PG of the ship.
[High slots] 150mm Railgun II 150mm Railgun II Core Probe Launcher II
[Mid slots] Limited 1mn Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I
[Low slots] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
[Rigs] Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
[Drones] 5x Hobgoblin II 3x Warrior SW-300 (or light ECM's)
3446 m/s mwd and 477 m/s standard. Cap stable at 37% with the guns turned off and 2 minutes 37 seconds with guns turned on. All assuming old stats from EFT so it would be slightly faster and slightly more cap stable with the changes.
My thought on the probe launcher is that I would be at range so a nos/neut wouldn't really be of use and since CCP is removing the launchers I can't fit something more useful unless you think an auto-targeter is more useful. A drone link augmentor might be fun to play with a certain setup if DLA's werne't so cpu intensive (one of the reasons I rule out the idea of sentry drones). My thought on the tracking disruptor is to attempt to keep my drones and myself (and perhaps my fleet) alive. I would have considered a drone navi computer to attempt to take advantage of the drone tracking (not sure how much that would help with the fling effect though) but it just wasn't able to fit and I felt a tracking disruptor would be more useful. Death is the true way of life. For if there is no death, there is no life.
Remind your vegetarian friends that think eating meat is murder; eating plants kills them too. I'm not obsessed with death, it is obsessed with me. |
FFKefka
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 14:22:00 -
[536] - Quote
I just don't know, hence why I thought I would throw that fit out here. I would entertain the idea of swapping the turrets for launcher slots as others have noted to take the ship more in line with the t2 bomber. Nobody ever said a drone boat couldn't use rockets/missiles. Heck... maybe even if it didn't get a bonus to the missiles it would be interesting, but right now the launcher slots are completely AWOL (not to mention only 9 slots compared to the other ship's 10 as others have pointed out many times) despite Rodean apparently favoring launchers, which would give viability to the story of having missile gallente ships. I do like my blasters and rails, but I liked the tristan with rocket launchers back when I flew frigs (before I found out the incursus was so much of a superior ship in many ways.)
Is CCP putting bonuses on ships just for fluff text? (Talking about both bonuses) or is this really supposed to help? Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate balance, but it's so confusing... Maybe once the drones are tweaked in the future it will make more sense, though the sentry drone idea would be viable if the CPU weren't so low, then the drone tracking would be interesting. While I'm a slight fan of the new railguns, I don't feel that a tracking bonus for 2 guns (rails or blasters) is really useful either, but time will tell I suppose.
Speaking of which... why is the CPU so low compared to the other races? Especially with how CPU intensive all the drone modules are. Wouldn't a ship manufacturer take that into account when building this type of ship?
Please forgive me for ranting a little. I do appreciate having a drone based frigate since I like the little buggars so much, but often I feel like we get the short end of the stick all too often. Death is the true way of life. For if there is no death, there is no life.
Remind your vegetarian friends that think eating meat is murder; eating plants kills them too. I'm not obsessed with death, it is obsessed with me. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
225
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 15:40:00 -
[537] - Quote
FFKefka wrote:Well, I've been struggling to figure out a fit that would make the Tristan work with its bonuses despite its fitting shortcomings and thought I would throw this out there to get an opinion on it. I used EFT but figured in the new CPU/PG of the ship.
[High slots] 150mm Railgun II 150mm Railgun II Core Probe Launcher II
[Mid slots] Limited 1mn Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I
[Low slots] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
[Rigs] Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
[Drones] 5x Hobgoblin II 3x Warrior SW-300 (or light ECM's)
Highlighted part is really bad.
|
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 15:59:00 -
[538] - Quote
FFKefka wrote:I just don't know, hence why I thought I would throw that fit out here. I would entertain the idea of swapping the turrets for launcher slots as others have noted to take the ship more in line with the t2 bomber. Nobody ever said a drone boat couldn't use rockets/missiles. Heck... maybe even if it didn't get a bonus to the missiles it would be interesting, but right now the launcher slots are completely AWOL (not to mention only 9 slots compared to the other ship's 10 as others have pointed out many times) despite Rodean apparently favoring launchers, which would give viability to the story of having missile gallente ships. I do like my blasters and rails, but I liked the tristan with rocket launchers back when I flew frigs (before I found out the incursus was so much of a superior ship in many ways.)
Is CCP putting bonuses on ships just for fluff text? (Talking about both bonuses) or is this really supposed to help? Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate balance, but it's so confusing... Maybe once the drones are tweaked in the future it will make more sense, though the sentry drone idea would be viable if the CPU weren't so low, then the drone tracking would be interesting. While I'm a slight fan of the new railguns, I don't feel that a tracking bonus for 2 guns (rails or blasters) is really useful either, but time will tell I suppose.
Speaking of which... why is the CPU so low compared to the other races? Especially with how CPU intensive all the drone modules and rigs are. Wouldn't a ship manufacturer take that into account when building this type of ship?
Please forgive me for ranting a little. I do appreciate having a drone based frigate since I like the little buggars so much, but often I feel like we get the short end of the stick all too edit to often.
Ranting is good, ranting gets your thoughts noticed.
The loss of a slot is a severe hindrance to the Tristan, most drone boats lack a slot to make up for the extra drones, but in this case i think it is too much a handicap since every slot matters for a frigate given its size and weakness, a lot of people assume that adding a extra low will add to much armor tank, but i believe that an extra low means more use of a nanofibre mod.
Also its fitting sucks for whatever reason and the hybrid tracking is completely pointless, other ships get two bonuses that benefit the ship immensely but a tracking bonus for two turrets is just not kosher. something like starting the hull with 25m3 of drone space and having a 5m3 per level bonus would mean having two full sets of dones at Galante frigate 5, a problem people raised at the start of this forum.
I have left the Tristan alone sice i have little expirence with drones and it is not out yet.
For future theory crafting use Eve Hanger sice it has a version that has the updated frigates and cruisers plus the new destroyers and mining frigate (Credit to KidDelicious for the site) |
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
92
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 20:31:00 -
[539] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote:i would like to point out that the new Kestrel.
You are seriously putting a target painter to help rockets hit better? Your right to comment on missile boats has been revoked....
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
228
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 22:52:00 -
[540] - Quote
Tristan would be good if it had 4 lows or a tanking bonus imo. |
|
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
144
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 01:37:00 -
[541] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Tristan would be good if it had 4 lows or a tanking bonus imo.
That'd be an Incursus.
The Tristan problem and the Rifter problem seem to be similar. Both have a 3m/3l layout that makes them worse at brawling (also at kiting, ewar application and pretty much everything) than competitive ships, yet at the same time they lack raw damage / maneuverability / fitting options to make up for that. Fitting options especially regarding the utility highslots that can often only barely be filled without gimping the desired fitting.
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
89
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 01:58:00 -
[542] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Tristan would be good if it had 4 lows or a tanking bonus imo. That'd be an Incursus. The Tristan problem and the Rifter problem seem to be similar. Both have a 3m/3l layout that makes them worse at brawling (also at kiting, ewar application and pretty much everything) than competitive ships, yet at the same time they lack raw damage / maneuverability / fitting options to make up for that. Fitting options especially regarding the utility highslots that can often only barely be filled without gimping the desired fitting.
Tristan problem is there's no reason to fly it over the incursus. So it can sort of apply a tiny amount of damage at range with drones to untackled targets, but for that it gets to be terrible at everything else. The frigs with utility highs are generally the bad ones, but I don't think that's the reason they are bad. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
228
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 02:36:00 -
[543] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Tristan would be good if it had 4 lows or a tanking bonus imo. That'd be an Incursus. The Tristan problem and the Rifter problem seem to be similar. Both have a 3m/3l layout that makes them worse at brawling (also at kiting, ewar application and pretty much everything) than competitive ships, yet at the same time they lack raw damage / maneuverability / fitting options to make up for that. Fitting options especially regarding the utility highslots that can often only barely be filled without gimping the desired fitting.
How would that be an incursus? Does the fact that is has a Tracking bonus make it a Thorax?
The tristan having 4 lows of a tanking bonus would not make it an incursus.. Simply because it would still be almost entirely reliant on drones for dps. |
Vayn Baxtor
Community for Justice Paradox Trust
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 04:42:00 -
[544] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Tristan would be good if it had 4 lows or a tanking bonus imo.
I'd be for tanking bonus (or even both).
I just find that Tristan, Rifter and similar frigates need some special attention.
Not to be shedding spotlight on what I mentioned about "T1.25", but I'd really love to see a sort of "Heavy Frigate" variant, just so they could be a nose-length ahead of the basic tackler/brawler types that took over. |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 06:42:00 -
[545] - Quote
Joanna Ramirez wrote:Rick Rymes wrote:i would like to point out that the new Kestrel. You are seriously putting a target painter to help rockets hit better? Your right to comment on missile boats has been revoked....
No i like that right
Its on there because i like the idea of hitting attack frigs for full damage, other than another web i was lost on what to use??? |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 06:52:00 -
[546] - Quote
What if you removed the tracking bonus, added an optimal range bonus and then gave it 3 turrets and more drone m3 for 2 full sets.
Maybe the the bad speed, bad ehp and missing slot will be justified.
P.S Adding a tank bonus is counter intuitive as its taken by the Incursus. also the Punisher needs love to (Que worshipers of the third midslot) |
FFKefka
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 10:02:00 -
[547] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:FFKefka wrote:Well, I've been struggling to figure out a fit that would make the Tristan work with its bonuses despite its fitting shortcomings and thought I would throw this out there to get an opinion on it. I used EFT but figured in the new CPU/PG of the ship.
[High slots] 150mm Railgun II 150mm Railgun II Core Probe Launcher II
[Mid slots] Limited 1mn Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I
[Low slots] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
[Rigs] Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
[Drones] 5x Hobgoblin II 3x Warrior SW-300 (or light ECM's)
Highlighted part is really bad. I tried that eve hangar site you linked and it doesn't have the updated stats for the tristan yet unless I missed something.
so... since I'm maxed out on CPU and you're saying the nanofibers are bad, are you suggesting I use a co-processor or something to get a DDA in there? I have the CCC's in there just so I have a stable tackle platform in order for allies to arrive, but I suppose it wouldn't take that long, so I will continue look into other options. the idea of the fit is for a small fleet to tackle larger ships and to provide anti-frig support (though I suppose I should use warriors for that, and/or find some insane way to boost drone speed despite being maxed out on CPU.) Most of my problems fitting anything to the ship lie in the fact it only gets 130 CPU whereas the others get 180 (before skills) Even if it were beefed up to 160 that would be a huge improvement.
Heh... all this talk of bonuses makes me think a sensor range bonus might be more beneficial over hybrid tracking for only 2 guns. (slightly joking...) Death is the true way of life. For if there is no death, there is no life.
Remind your vegetarian friends that think eating meat is murder; eating plants kills them too. I'm not obsessed with death, it is obsessed with me. |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 11:05:00 -
[548] - Quote
Quote:tried that eve hangar site you linked and it doesn't have the updated stats for the tristan yet unless I missed something.
https://null-sec.com/hangar/?evedb=test
It has to have the /?evedb=test at the end to load the duality database. |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 11:23:00 -
[549] - Quote
Perhaps this...
[Tristan]
[High Slots] 150mm Railgun II - Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun II - Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[Med Slots] 1MN Microwarpdrive II Faint Warp Disruptor I Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
[Low Slots] Drone Damage Amplifier II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
[Rigs] Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
[Drones] Warrior II x 8
|
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 11:34:00 -
[550] - Quote
Vayn Baxtor wrote:To me, it would be interesting to see Rifter and Tristan be heavier variants, just fit in somewhere just a tad above the other frigates.
Those are called Faction frigates. the Firetail is just a better Rifter, and although not as close, the Comet is just better hybrid of the Incursus and Tristan.
Not to mention Pirate frigates. |
|
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
183
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 12:17:00 -
[551] - Quote
FFKefka wrote:I tried that eve hangar site you linked and it doesn't have the updated stats for the tristan yet unless I missed something.
so... since I'm maxed out on CPU and you're saying the nanofibers are bad, are you suggesting I use a co-processor or something to get a DDA in there? I have the CCC's in there just so I have a stable tackle platform in order for allies to arrive, but I suppose it wouldn't take that long, so I will continue look into other options. the idea of the fit is for a small fleet to tackle larger ships and to provide anti-frig support (though I suppose I should use warriors for that, and/or find some insane way to boost drone speed despite being maxed out on CPU.) Most of my problems fitting anything to the ship lie in the fact it only gets 130 CPU whereas the others get 180 (before skills) Even if it were beefed up to 160 that would be a huge improvement.
Heh... all this talk of bonuses makes me think a sensor range bonus might be more beneficial over hybrid tracking for only 2 guns. (slightly joking...) Start by downgrading the guns to 125mm or 75mm. Largest LR guns are not supposed to fit without fitting mod. |
Vayn Baxtor
Community for Justice Paradox Trust
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:46:00 -
[552] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote:Vayn Baxtor wrote:To me, it would be interesting to see Rifter and Tristan be heavier variants, just fit in somewhere just a tad above the other frigates. Those are called Faction frigates. the Firetail is just a better Rifter, and although not as close, the Comet is just better hybrid of the Incursus and Tristan. Not to mention Pirate frigates.
Might as well squeeze them in there somewhere, because I love the hulls. :D |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:00:00 -
[553] - Quote
Vayn Baxtor wrote:Might as well squeeze them in there somewhere, because I love the hulls. :D
I love them to, but being realistic will more likely get them changed. Asking to make them better than the others is just unfair and unbalanced |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
631
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:28:00 -
[554] - Quote
For the love of god, can somebody please post a decent Tristan fit with a damage control mod in the low? |
OT Smithers
BLOMI
371
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:47:00 -
[555] - Quote
My opinion:
The Minmatar frigate "problem" is simply this: they don't do anything quite well ENOUGH when compared to their opposition. The Slasher is probably the only one functioning correctly, but with the upcoming change to unbonused TDs this too will suffer a significant hit.
I would like to see the Rifter and Jaguar each doing a little bit more damage. Nothing significant, just a slight bump. Further, both need a slight increase in their base speed. Both the Rifter and Jag seem to be designed as generalist frigates, but in practice they often get eclipsed by more specialized frigates. They aren't the fastest, they aren't the tankiest, they do marginal dps, their weapons force them deep into scram range and there are no viable long range options.
The Wolf suffers similarly. As an Arty boat it is eclipsed by the rail Enyo and Harpy, and as a close range brawler it lacks the third midslot necessary for range control.
None of them are BAD frigates, but they could use a bit of help.
|
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:58:00 -
[556] - Quote
OT Smithers wrote:My opinion:
The Minmatar frigate "problem" is simply this: they don't do anything quite well ENOUGH when compared to their opposition. The Slasher is probably the only one functioning correctly, but with the upcoming change to unbonused TDs this too will suffer a significant hit.
I would like to see the Rifter and Jaguar each doing a little bit more damage. Nothing significant, just a slight bump. Further, both need a slight increase in their base speed. Both the Rifter and Jag seem to be designed as generalist frigates, but in practice they often get eclipsed by more specialized frigates. They aren't the fastest, they aren't the tankiest, they do marginal dps, their weapons force them deep into scram range and there are no viable long range options.
The Wolf suffers similarly. As an Arty boat it is eclipsed by the rail Enyo and Harpy, and as a close range brawler it lacks the third midslot necessary for range control.
None of them are BAD frigates, but they could use a bit of help.
The jack of all trades is dead, long live the year of specialized combat. I don't think speed is a problem, any more and the Rifter will be to much like the Attack frigates. More dps is a must tho, thought minmatar where meant to move fast and hit hard, has the speed down but where is the damage and the application of it. *Cough 4th turret cough cough falloff bonus cough* |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
632
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 18:45:00 -
[557] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Tristan problem is there's no reason to fly it over the incursus. So it can sort of apply a tiny amount of damage at range with drones to untackled targets, but for that it gets to be terrible at everything else. The frigs with utility highs are generally the bad ones, but I don't think that's the reason they are bad. Tristan can launch drones and burn off outside of weapons range during a fleet fight and not get popped (something like 150 dps worth with two drone damage amplifiers). It can participate in fights without as much fear of e-war as the other Gallente frigs (resistance to jamming, tracking disruptors, neuts, etc...). This is important for fighting griffins and dual rsd frigates (Maulus, Caldari/Minmatar 4 midslot frigs), etc...
Its drones will still be vulnerable to smart bombs - which will be mounted on more and more ships as the effectiveness and number of drone ships fielded increase.
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
230
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 19:54:00 -
[558] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:For the love of god, can somebody please post a decent Tristan fit with a damage control mod in the low?
If you're going to be demanding..
[Tristan, New Setup 1] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Small Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S [empty high slot]
Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I Small Auxiliary Thrusters I Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x3
I find it underwhelming tbh, Would be better with -1 high +1 low imo |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
632
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 20:20:00 -
[559] - Quote
I find this fit very interesting for solo work. Gonna be fun.
100 dps with hob II's.
[Tristan, Mini-Sentinel] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Armor Repairer II
1MN Afterburner II/ Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I [empty high slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I
Hobgoblin II x5
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
230
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 22:01:00 -
[560] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:I find this fit very interesting for solo work. Gonna be fun.
100 dps with hob II's. + 43 dps per light neutron blaster
[Tristan, Mini-Sentinel] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Armor Repairer II
1MN Afterburner II/ Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I/ Light Neutron Blaster II Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I/Light Nuetron Blaster II Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I [empty high slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I
Hobgoblin II x5
-----
Yea i considered that, Its just that the range on neuts is balls.
|
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Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 07:22:00 -
[561] - Quote
I find those fits underwhelming because its designed to kite, not tank, you wont need 3 fitting rigs to make a kiting set up, it can out run, out dps, out range and out tank the current Rifter when fit similarly .
it can put out good damage around the 20k mark and will hit over 3200m/s cold, so why fit it as a brawler when the Incursus is superior at the task. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
632
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 07:38:00 -
[562] - Quote
Potential Max Drone Damage Setups
[Tristan, Shield+Damage] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Faint Warp Disruptor I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
75mm Gatling Rail II, Javelin S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Javelin S [empty high slot]
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x 5
[Tristan, Tracking Disruptor] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Faint Warp Disruptor I Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
75mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 75mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot]
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hobgoblin II x 5
You can also do some interesting stuff with just one Drone Damage Amplifier - making the td setup pretty much cap stable, or adding more EHP to the shield setup, or perhaps putting in longer range rails. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
632
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 07:41:00 -
[563] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote:I find those fits underwhelming because its designed to kite, not tank, you wont need 3 fitting rigs to make a kiting set up, it can out run, out dps, out range and out tank the current Rifter when fit similarly .
it can put out good damage around the 20k mark and will hit over 3200m/s cold, so why fit it as a brawler when the Incursus is superior at the task. Because it can potentially neuter hybrid and laser setups as well as active armor tank setups. You can also apply damage at range and then swoop in for point at the right time. (You don't have to hold point the entire fight, just when the other guy decides he wants to bail.) Also, the tristan will be less susceptible to electronic warfare than the incursus. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
33
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 07:59:00 -
[564] - Quote
I find 20k kiting and drones a bit counter-productive. For example when I fly a kiting comet (with rails and drones) and kite a short range ship (Thrasher for example). My prey always shoots drones when he realizes he cannot reach me. Short range ships usually make a short work of drones....and when my drones are gone, so does a sizeable chunk of my dps.
In tristan case the moment you try to get to 20k and kite, enemy will go after your drones. Although you can try micro-managing them, you won't be able to save them. They'll die before enemy dies.
So...you have to be the EHP shield for your drones if you want them to survive and kill the enemy. Which puts tristan within that webscramneutdeath zone. This fit just might work for this purpose:
[Tristan, Shield Buffer] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
1MN Afterburner II Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I Medium Shield Extender II
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot]
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defense Field Extender I Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
6.5k EHP 192 DPS with hobgoblins and rails (though you propbably won't be dealing all of it.)
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
230
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 08:25:00 -
[565] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote:I find those fits underwhelming because its designed to kite, not tank, you wont need 3 fitting rigs to make a kiting set up, it can out run, out dps, out range and out tank the current Rifter when fit similarly .
it can put out good damage around the 20k mark and will hit over 3200m/s cold, so why fit it as a brawler when the Incursus is superior at the task.
Its a bad kiter though.. |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 10:17:00 -
[566] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Rick Rymes wrote:I find those fits underwhelming because its designed to kite, not tank, you wont need 3 fitting rigs to make a kiting set up, it can out run, out dps, out range and out tank the current Rifter when fit similarly .
it can put out good damage around the 20k mark and will hit over 3200m/s cold, so why fit it as a brawler when the Incursus is superior at the task. Its a bad kiter though.. It also looks like a bad brawler as well. maybe more drone m3 so that it has two flights, making it harder to kill the drones quickly, and an extra low slot (either added all together or by taking the utility slot and moving it) so that it can benefit armor tanking and kiting (armor mods, speed mods, damage mods).
Maybe swap the rail tracking bonus for a 5m3 per level bonus, start the hull with 25m3 then by frigate 5 you will have 2 flights, way more incentive for newbies to max the skill then (fits with the Ishkur as well). |
Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 11:27:00 -
[567] - Quote
Glad this forum has livened up again, hope ccp hears all the noise we are making.
Was thinking of making a discussion thread for each ship that looks undermined (Rifter, Tristan and Punisher) where we can talk in more detail about each ship we care for (this is more of a place to pine for Fozzies attention)
Would be nice to have a dedicated thread for each ship, which we could then link here whenever we need to be heard. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 14:34:00 -
[568] - Quote
I quite like the Tristan, it will be one of my preferred ships given itGÇÖs flexibility and I like the bonuses and slot layout, fittings not so much.
It seems to have the lowest CPU and pretty much lowest powergrid of the frigates, the utility high really needs to be filled with a nos/neut and yet powergrid was remove with the loss of a high and the launchers, the launchers though never used up much grid so I find this harsh.
CPU is particularly harsh given drone upgrades and rigs are CPU intensive.
I was thinking of this (requires 1% power grid implant I believe), still 2 fitting mods makes it feel pre-nerfed and none of the other frigates seem to have this sort of issue. Dropping to ions does not even help as you still need the rigs. Just under 5k EHP and 200DPS. I figure tracking bonus may mean I can use void if I can get close.
[Tristan, DPS] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Experimental 1MN Afterburner I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x3
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
233
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 23:54:00 -
[569] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:I quite like the Tristan, it will be one of my preferred ships given itGÇÖs flexibility and I like the bonuses and slot layout, fittings not so much.
It seems to have the lowest CPU and pretty much lowest powergrid of the frigates, the utility high really needs to be filled with a nos/neut and yet powergrid was remove with the loss of a high and the launchers, the launchers though never used up much grid so I find this harsh.
CPU is particularly harsh given drone upgrades and rigs are CPU intensive.
I was thinking of this (requires 1% power grid implant I believe), still 2 fitting mods makes it feel pre-nerfed and none of the other frigates seem to have this sort of issue. Dropping to ions does not even help as you still need the rigs. Just under 5k EHP and 200DPS. I figure tracking bonus may mean I can use void if I can get close.
[Tristan, DPS] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Experimental 1MN Afterburner I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x3
enjoy having meh tank, meh dps, meh speed and needing to dock up after every fight. Also Ancill's are ******* expensive atm. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
183
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 10:29:00 -
[570] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:I quite like the Tristan, it will be one of my preferred ships given itGÇÖs flexibility and I like the bonuses and slot layout, fittings not so much.
It seems to have the lowest CPU and pretty much lowest powergrid of the frigates, the utility high really needs to be filled with a nos/neut and yet powergrid was remove with the loss of a high and the launchers, the launchers though never used up much grid so I find this harsh.
CPU is particularly harsh given drone upgrades and rigs are CPU intensive.
I was thinking of this (requires 1% power grid implant I believe), still 2 fitting mods makes it feel pre-nerfed and none of the other frigates seem to have this sort of issue. Dropping to ions does not even help as you still need the rigs. Just under 5k EHP and 200DPS. I figure tracking bonus may mean I can use void if I can get close.
[Tristan, DPS] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Experimental 1MN Afterburner I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x3
enjoy having meh tank, meh dps, meh speed and needing to dock up after every fight. Also Ancill's are ******* expensive atm. Meh dps ? I don't know in which world you are playing EVE, but it's not the same than most of us play. |
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
233
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 12:14:00 -
[571] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:I quite like the Tristan, it will be one of my preferred ships given itGÇÖs flexibility and I like the bonuses and slot layout, fittings not so much.
It seems to have the lowest CPU and pretty much lowest powergrid of the frigates, the utility high really needs to be filled with a nos/neut and yet powergrid was remove with the loss of a high and the launchers, the launchers though never used up much grid so I find this harsh.
CPU is particularly harsh given drone upgrades and rigs are CPU intensive.
I was thinking of this (requires 1% power grid implant I believe), still 2 fitting mods makes it feel pre-nerfed and none of the other frigates seem to have this sort of issue. Dropping to ions does not even help as you still need the rigs. Just under 5k EHP and 200DPS. I figure tracking bonus may mean I can use void if I can get close.
[Tristan, DPS] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Experimental 1MN Afterburner I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x3
enjoy having meh tank, meh dps, meh speed and needing to dock up after every fight. Also Ancill's are ******* expensive atm. Meh dps ? I don't know in which world you are playing EVE, but it's not the same than most of us play.
Its blasters and drones, both being TERRBILE at applying dps. So meh. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
99
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 13:05:00 -
[572] - Quote
Blasters (especially Neutrons that can swap to Null) and Drones apply DPS fine to scrammed and webbed targets within that range.
Really the point of the post has to post a reasonable fit with expected mods and highlight the ships major flaw in a constructive way, itGÇÖs fitting issues. A touch more powergrid and CPU will benefit all configurations.
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
234
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 14:41:00 -
[573] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:Blasters (especially Neutrons that can swap to Null) and Drones apply DPS fine to scrammed and webbed targets within that range.
Really the point of the post has to post a reasonable fit with expected mods and highlight the ships major flaw in a constructive way, itGÇÖs fitting issues. A touch more powergrid and CPU will benefit all configurations.
Agreed fittings would make it a bit better.
But imo its real problem is that it would be better off with four lows than with three highs. |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
108
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 23:32:00 -
[574] - Quote
Shopping List
1. Kestrel x 4 (2 setups) 2. Breacher x 4 (2 setups) [SMUG]-áSORRY for party rocking! v0v
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Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 04:44:00 -
[575] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:
Shopping List
1. Kestrel x 4 (2 setups) 2. Breacher x 4 (2 setups)
Shopping List
1. Caracal x 8 (2 different setups) 2. Thorax x 4 (2 different setups)
Shopping List
1. Thrasher (still win!) 2. Coercer x 4 (1 setup, beam-fleet)
Lol you were so busy spreading your shopping list over all the forums, that you forgot milk and cheese.
Concentrate man |
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Aliastra Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 19:29:00 -
[576] - Quote
I like the change of the Tristan, it also has a bonus that helps light drones fight frigs, and keeps it from having power too close to a vexor.
The drone bay could be increase 50m3 so it can hold two flights of lights, drones unlike other weapon systems can be blown up in combat.
Gallente don't have much for misssle boats, so while some lament it is changed, I see it much better, having a ship have half missiles half hybrids isn't much for a proper missile boat or combat ship in general and is better to have mainly one weapon type.
|
Rick Rymes
Red Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 06:46:00 -
[577] - Quote
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:I like the change of the Tristan, it also has a bonus that helps light drones fight frigs, and keeps it from having power too close to a vexor.
The drone bay could be increase 50m3 so it can hold two flights of lights, drones unlike other weapon systems can be blown up in combat.
Gallente don't have much for misssle boats, so while some lament it is changed, I see it much better, having a ship have half missiles half hybrids isn't much for a proper missile boat or combat ship in general and is better to have mainly one weapon type.
Well spoken but the new Tristan has a split weapon system of drones and hyprids.
The Tristan will be damn cool, but gimmicky due to low fittings and a pointless bonus plus it is missing a slot.
I have a feeling that the Tristan will be left behind, just like the Punisher and the Rifter, which is bad since they were the original combat frigs but now are beaten and broken (Merlin got its love tho). |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1351
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 10:37:00 -
[578] - Quote
Unsticking, let's make some space for future threads. |
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Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 14:16:00 -
[579] - Quote
Well we were wrong about the Tristan, kicks ass.
Still want a better Rifter/Punisher. |
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