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Kyo Haku Minmatar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2011.01.17 18:15:00 - [1] Minmatar- Keep it the way it is. Amarr- Trade one low slot for a mid. Caldari- Replace all turrent hardpoints with missile ones. Give it a range bonus to rockets, with the ROF penalty still in place. Gallente- Give them one (maybe two) less turrent hardpoints in exchange for a 15m^3 drone bay and bandwidth. Just a thought on how to fix our dear Dessies. I tried to keep the individual race's flavor in there, while trying to keep them mostly balanced. As much as I enjoy the Thrasher's dominance, I'd like to see the other Destroyers out there sometimes. Thoughts? Criticisms? -- "Far be it from me to stand in judgment. I prefer to sit." -Stephen Colbert
Corporal Punishment08 NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2011.01.17 19:05:00 - [2] Originally by: Kyo Haku Caldari- Replace all turrent hardpoints with missile ones. Give it a range bonus to rockets, with the ROF penalty still in place. Thoughts? Criticisms? I like the range you can get with a Railorant. Also, it's a stepping-stone for the Hybrid weapon path of Caldari. If you take that away, it's nto a stepping stone at all, and noone will ever train for a Cormorant. I say either give it an extra low for more damage, or increase tracking/speed. I think destroyers should be mini-battlecruisers. Cruiser sized DPS and speed with frig-sized tank.
Kyo Haku Minmatar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2011.01.17 19:10:00 - [3] Originally by: Corporal Punishment08 Originally by: Kyo Haku Caldari- Replace all turrent hardpoints with missile ones. Give it a range bonus to rockets, with the ROF penalty still in place. Thoughts? Criticisms? I like the range you can get with a Railorant. Also, it's a stepping-stone for the Hybrid weapon path of Caldari. If you take that away, it's nto a stepping stone at all, and noone will ever train for a Cormorant. I say either give it an extra low for more damage, or increase tracking/speed. I think destroyers should be mini-battlecruisers. Cruiser sized DPS and speed with frig-sized tank. Never used rails, so no comment on that. I just thought it fitting that Caldari use missiles of some kind since it's their weapon system of choice. I know I'd certainly use a Cormorant is it had missiles. -- "Far be it from me to stand in judgment. I prefer to sit." -Stephen Colbert
Kraschyn Thek'athor	Posted - 2011.01.17 19:12:00 - [4] I wouldn't reject your changes, but it won't help the Destroyer class. Lately I got roasted in a Thrasher from three Stealth Bombers nearly instantly with Torps while using AB. The main problem is the signature to speed to hitpoint ratio on the destroyers. With 75-90m Signature they are huge compared to their hitpoints. The Stabber has only 105m Signature in comparision. An decrease in Signature would help a lot. Something like 55-65m
Buzzmong Aliastra	Posted - 2011.01.17 19:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Kyo Haku Thoughts? Criticisms? What are these turrents you speak of? Barring the Coercer needing a mid slot, Dessies just need smaller sigs or a tad more HP. They're glass cannons made out of paper. --------------------------------- Go Web! Go!
Goose99	Posted - 2011.01.17 19:23:00 - [6] Originally by: Kyo Haku Originally by: Corporal Punishment08 Originally by: Kyo Haku Caldari- Replace all turrent hardpoints with missile ones. Give it a range bonus to rockets, with the ROF penalty still in place. Thoughts? Criticisms? I like the range you can get with a Railorant. Also, it's a stepping-stone for the Hybrid weapon path of Caldari. If you take that away, it's nto a stepping stone at all, and noone will ever train for a Cormorant. I say either give it an extra low for more damage, or increase tracking/speed. I think destroyers should be mini-battlecruisers. Cruiser sized DPS and speed with frig-sized tank. Never used rails, so no comment on that. I just thought it fitting that Caldari use missiles of some kind since it's their weapon system of choice. I know I'd certainly use a Cormorant is it had missiles. Rockets instead of rails on Cormorant is more like a nerf... Give it regular missile launchers with fitting and rop bonus.
Khyara	Posted - 2011.01.17 19:50:00 - [7] Edited by: Khyara on 17/01/2011 19:50:29 I like some of the proposed changes Im seeing however there is one thing you are missing which was pointed out above and is the critical link (and is so damn easy) REDUCE THE FREAKING SIGNATURE RADIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (insert other angry, I cant believe CCP hasnt done that already, exclamations) On the plus side the Noctus makes me think that CCP does realize that destroyers are useless and need to be fixed....Of course their time frame is 2020 while they add all sorts of new content to the game without fixing the old issues /rant
Lilla Kharn Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.18 04:29:00 - [8] Lower sig, everything else is fine. It apparently we forgot the purpose of destroyers. They are not to damage, they are to kill frigates and smaller ships. Hence the tracking bonus... ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Kraschyn Thek'athor I wouldn't reject your changes, but it won't help the Destroyer class. Lately I got roasted in a Thrasher from three Stealth Bombers nearly instantly with Torps while using AB. The main problem is the signature to speed to hitpoint ratio on the destroyers. With 75-90m Signature they are huge compared to their hitpoints. The Stabber has only 105m Signature in comparision. An decrease in Signature would help a lot. Something like 55-65m This need smaller signature and more base speed. Then adjust the amarr one to have 2 mids and you are done Well maybe add drone or 2 to the gallente one
Max Hardcase The Scope	Posted - 2011.01.18 19:18:00 - [10] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 18/01/2011 19:19:01 Have you ever tried to fit a destroyer ? The fitting possibilties are atrocious in all but one of them ( Thrasher ). And thats with perfect fitting skills. Catalyst is so lacking in CPU department that it might as well not have a 2nd midslot.
Kahega Amielden T.R.I.A.D	Posted - 2011.01.18 19:19:00 - [11] Quote: Never used rails, so no comment on that. I just thought it fitting that Caldari use missiles of some kind since it's their weapon system of choice. I know I'd certainly use a Cormorant is it had missiles. er, it is? The merlin is a missileboat? The moa? The ferox, rokh...?
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.01.18 19:44:00 - [12] No to a T1 missile destroyer, 40km+ range and 120+ dps .. if you want that level of frigate counter use an Assault Caracal. Why does the Coercer need a second mid? They are anti-frigate/drone platforms (the best ones at that too) and not solo boats .. this insane obsession with everything being able to tackle has to stop. Drones do you no good in low EHP/High-dps fights which is what Destroyer/Frigate fights are. Stuff pops before drones even get to where they are supposed to be. Fixes needed: - Redesign high-slot layouts as has been done on marauders, pirate ships and navy frigs = low gun count, high bonus. Each gun costs 1-3x the price of the hulls for Goddess sake, the single most expensive ship-class to fly in Eve. - Reduce signature to be a lot closer to that of frigates. - Reduce mass (increases flight performance). No need to reinvent the wheel, they are all pretty damn nasty in the right hands and just need a little more survivability against cruisers.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2011.01.18 21:37:00 - [13] I personally would love a missile-based Caldari destroyer. 8 missile hard points would be great; either SMLs, or rockets with a nice velocity bonus. That would rock pretty hard. - "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object
Corporal Punishment08 NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2011.01.18 23:06:00 - [14] Edited by: Corporal Punishment08 on 18/01/2011 23:08:56 Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 18/01/2011 19:19:01 Have you ever tried to fit a destroyer ? The fitting possibilties are atrocious in all but one of them ( Thrasher ). And thats with perfect fitting skills. Catalyst is so lacking in CPU department that it might as well not have a 2nd midslot. ooooohh yeah. I forgot about that. Tried to fit a Cormy for max dps and was stopped by the CPU/PG (Can't remember which). I think I was able to get T2s on there, with tracking in the low slot, but couldn't get much of anything in the mids...so yeah probably a boost to CPU and PG, and maybe reduced sig rad, and good to go? That would be descent... Originally by: Andrea Griffin I personally would love a missile-based Caldari destroyer. 8 missile hard points would be great; either SMLs, or rockets with a nice velocity bonus. That would rock pretty hard. The Cormorant doesn't even have 8 turret hardpoints as it stands now, why would they give it 8 launchers hardpoints? Also, for missiles on a destroyer, try the flycatcher ;) I still think the Cormorant should stick with Hybrids. Like I said, it's a great stepping stone for Caldari pilots who want to train hybrids instead of missiles. Merlin>Cormorant>Moa>Ferox>ROKH as opposed to Kestrel>Caracal>Drake>Raven Or maybe even give it 7 turret HPs and 6 launcher HPs, so you can take your pick Edit: By the way, I realise the Hybrid training route for Caldari has 1 extra ship with the Destroyer. Since missiles are ignorantly easy to operate compared to turrets, it's a good learning step for aspiring Caldari hybrid pilots.
Max Thunderstorm	Posted - 2011.01.19 11:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Kraschyn Thek'athor I wouldn't reject your changes, but it won't help the Destroyer class. Lately I got roasted in a Thrasher from three Stealth Bombers nearly instantly with Torps while using AB. The main problem is the signature to speed to hitpoint ratio on the destroyers. With 75-90m Signature they are huge compared to their hitpoints. The Stabber has only 105m Signature in comparision. An decrease in Signature would help a lot. Something like 55-65m erm 3 stealth bombers are SUPPOSED to be able to insta pop a destro as it is frig class and they get bonuses for using BIG missles against small targets... your defense... move faster.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.01.19 12:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Max Thunderstorm erm 3 stealth bombers are SUPPOSED to be able to insta pop a destro as it is frig class and they get bonuses for using BIG missles against small targets... your defense... move faster. Your age is showing, first in that you remember what bomber were and second for seemingly forgetting that they were changed With painter spam a bomber group can do some damage, but without you'll only know they are firing from the exaggerated torp effect
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.19 20:53:00 - [17] Read the comment about destroyers being useless and got a very sad feeling. Why? Because this isn't a troll thread. They arent broken or useless, sorry. When people confuse slight IMBA with useless and broken it makes me happy that CCP rarely listens to their fanbase. Thats what destroyed Guild wars.
Max Thunderstorm	Posted - 2011.01.20 05:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Max Thunderstorm erm 3 stealth bombers are SUPPOSED to be able to insta pop a destro as it is frig class and they get bonuses for using BIG missles against small targets... your defense... move faster. Your age is showing, first in that you remember what bomber were and second for seemingly forgetting that they were changed With painter spam a bomber group can do some damage, but without you'll only know they are firing from the exaggerated torp effect Explosion velocity bonuses help against faster moving ships, which tend to be frigates, Destroyers and Cruisers. SO yes they do get bonuses towards those types of ships because BS's and BC's tend to not move around all that fast generally, unless you're a phoon or mega.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.20 06:07:00 - [19] Hey! No touching my 100km-range Cormy! ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2011.01.20 06:17:00 - [20] The harpy hits as far as the cormorant and with an actual damage bonus and frigate signature radius it's simply the better choice in all circumstances. The whole destroyer lineup needs a complete redo. Make them all the same signature radii - think 50m. Take off two turrets and lose the ROF penalty. Throw those two high slots into mids or lows depending on race. Give them all an AB bonus for increased survivability. Increase the base EHP. Adjust fittings. You now have to frigates what battlecruisers are to cruisers.
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2011.01.20 06:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf The whole destroyer lineup needs a complete redo. Make them all the same signature radii - think 50m. Take off two turrets and lose the ROF penalty. Throw those two high slots into mids or lows depending on race. Give them all an AB bonus for increased survivability. Increase the base EHP. Adjust fittings. You now have to frigates what battlecruisers are to cruisers. So what your saying is.. push dessies to the point that everything but tackling ceptors is removed from any kind of legitament use in every aspect of EVE for the frig lineup? No thx. Your analogy is whacked from the prespective that BCs are combat ships, period. Cruisers can serve a much wider array of roles.. roles that they take from frigs and one-up. Your idea would turn nearly every single frig into a 'EAF'. 60-70 sig and slight boost to hp. Fixed. They aren't really that broken to begin with.. they eat frigs alive in proper hands and do it well already, their purpose. A touch extra staying/surviving power vs bigger ships is all they need.. just a touch. They are not cruisers. If some of you having troubles with fitting issues.. eh. There is a reason why Advanced weapon upgrade exists and lvl 5 is a very coveted and solid skill to know. As well as meta items and their value. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2011.01.20 06:43:00 - [22] So they don't need a redo? They're all based on alpha strikes. One guess as to which race does that best. I didn't say it in my first post but they're also losing their optimal bonus. Short range. 1200m/s at best. We can debate the signature radius. But they need alot more survivability, not a bit.
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2011.01.20 07:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf So they don't need a redo? They're all based on alpha strikes. One guess as to which race does that best. I didn't say it in my first post but they're also losing their optimal bonus. Short range. 1200m/s at best. We can debate the signature radius. But they need alot more survivability, not a bit. I think 50 sig for dessie is overdosing a problem with morphine for an ankle sprain. And your proposing to pile on a load more hp on top of that? And increase their speed? Right. Sorry, I can't stand proposels that try to lean and push something from Broken to Broken. There is a reason why armor/sig tanking lokis are gaining popularity and 'street cred' in conflict. When you pile a ton of ehp on a tiny sig ship, that ehp actually becomes inflated into more 'ehp' than eft/ingame numbers will tell people. Lowering there sig radius to 60-65 is good enough to put it at the half way mark of medium sized weaponary. There is not much need after that to then pile on near cruiser like base hit points along with that. A 62 sig thrasher with around 950/850/775 sh/ar/st base hit points would be adaquate enough to give it signficantly more staying strengthen. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please.
Splinter 07	Posted - 2011.01.20 11:13:00 - [24] The amarr desse defiantly needs an extra mid, the amarr desse can not pvp for its life as it can only fit a propulsion mod or be an extremely slow tackler, and a decrease in sig radius is needed.
JASON W0RTHING	Posted - 2011.01.20 15:29:00 - [25] I like your changes quite a bit actually. Again though, I would reduce their sig, significantly first. But yeah, I would totally dig an SML Cormorant with 7xstandards and a bonus to fitting them. Originally by: CCP Shadow What is thy bidd -- Wait. This thread, I have an irresistible urge to lock it for "being related to neither crime nor punishment."
Max Hardcase The Scope	Posted - 2011.01.20 18:25:00 - [26] Originally by: Umega Originally by: Zarnak Wulf So they don't need a redo? They're all based on alpha strikes. One guess as to which race does that best. I didn't say it in my first post but they're also losing their optimal bonus. Short range. 1200m/s at best. We can debate the signature radius. But they need alot more survivability, not a bit. I think 50 sig for dessie is overdosing a problem with morphine for an ankle sprain. And your proposing to pile on a load more hp on top of that? And increase their speed? Right. Sorry, I can't stand proposels that try to lean and push something from Broken to Broken. There is a reason why armor/sig tanking lokis are gaining popularity and 'street cred' in conflict. When you pile a ton of ehp on a tiny sig ship, that ehp actually becomes inflated into more 'ehp' than eft/ingame numbers will tell people. Lowering there sig radius to 60-65 is good enough to put it at the half way mark of medium sized weaponary. There is not much need after that to then pile on near cruiser like base hit points along with that. A 62 sig thrasher with around 950/850/775 sh/ar/st base hit points would be adaquate enough to give it signficantly more staying strengthen. We could go the BC route and give them all the same sig....the same one as the Trasher (65).
Darth Anonymous Amarr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.01.20 18:57:00 - [27] Destroyers are fine.
Corporal Punishment08 NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2011.01.20 19:12:00 - [28] Originally by: Darth Anonymous Destroyers are fine. Sure, if you plan on shooting them instead of using them. Destroyers need a small bit of love
Frances	Posted - 2011.01.20 20:16:00 - [29] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Never used rails, so no comment on that. I just thought it fitting that Caldari use missiles of some kind since it's their weapon system of choice. I know I'd certainly use a Cormorant is it had missiles. er, it is? The merlin is a missileboat? The moa? The ferox, rokh...? What do all of those ships have in common, oh yeah....they all SUCK! Just from a flavor point of view, I'd like to see the Cormorant using missles. Barring that, fix hybrids. What about the little guys. The Tristan is pretty spiffy looking. Non-Gallente I gotta go with the Hurricane, shame its not as fast as it looks.
Darth Anonymous Amarr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.01.20 20:20:00 - [30] Originally by: Darth Anonymous Destroyers are fine. For the niche I use them, 4-6 pilots flying Thrashers to insta-pop frigates anywhere or suicide Hulks in high security space, they work just fine. Thrashers are the best but Catalysts and Coercers are just fine. The only tweaks I could see would be to give the Coercer an extra mid slot and fix railguns (a separate issue) so that the Cormorant is more viable.

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