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Charles Dexter Ward
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.19 10:11:00 -
[1]
For many players, including myself, crimes and scams aren't just parts of EVE - they ARE EVE. The politics and the social interaction always stays new and new drama occur; new scams come and new people are betrayed. Yet I cannot fathom how we can draw a line between what is socially acceptable ("nice scam, mate - you really got me") and what is morally intolerable.
Let's say I find a guy in space and I befriend him somewhat. We fly with each other day in and day out; killing people and so forth. After six months of total friendship, I see an opportunity to clean him dry of his billions of ISK - and I take it.
When this friends comes to this board telling you this story, some of you would say "it's EVE, bro - sorry for your lost" while others would say "what a ****ed up guy! Gimme his name and I'll F him over for you".
My point is that there's a thin line between what is socially acceptable in EVE, and what is morally wrong. How do we know when we are about to step to far? How do we excuse immoral behavior just because it's a part of EVE? Scamming a stranger is nothing. Scamming a friend is a totally different thing, but people can excuse their 'friendship' via it only being online.
What are your thoughts about this?
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Alotta Baggage
Amarr Imperial Manufactorum Armada Assail
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Posted - 2011.01.19 10:24:00 -
[2]
Mainly you crossed the line if you using a bot, or buying isk... then we all laugh at you for getting hacked.
Other than that, if it turns you on... do it!
Originally by: Magnus Andronicus ur character looks like a f***ing clown dude.
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DuKackBoon
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Posted - 2011.01.19 10:25:00 -
[3]
Immoral behavior? Such a thing doesn't exist in the universe of EVE.
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Charles Dexter Ward
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.19 10:28:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Charles Dexter Ward on 19/01/2011 10:28:42 So you two see NOTHING wrong in screwing over an EVE-friend? I remember reading about this scam where people infiltrated a corp and was there for 10+ months.
I know you people exist - that's not what I'm asking. I want to know if you can identify a morally wrong thing to do in EVE (of course within the EULA).
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.19 10:33:00 -
[5]
Line? There is no line. As long as you don't breach the EULA, anything goes.
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Cryptkiller
Minmatar Ebola Allstars
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Posted - 2011.01.19 10:48:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward Edited by: Charles Dexter Ward on 19/01/2011 10:28:42 So you two see NOTHING wrong in screwing over an EVE-friend? I remember reading about this scam where people infiltrated a corp and was there for 10+ months.
I know you people exist - that's not what I'm asking. I want to know if you can identify a morally wrong thing to do in EVE (of course within the EULA).
You feel bad when you take Boardwalk and Park Place from your friend while playing Monopoly? I tell the ****er he lost and is paying the next round...
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Charles Dexter Ward
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.19 10:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cryptkiller
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward Edited by: Charles Dexter Ward on 19/01/2011 10:28:42 So you two see NOTHING wrong in screwing over an EVE-friend? I remember reading about this scam where people infiltrated a corp and was there for 10+ months.
I know you people exist - that's not what I'm asking. I want to know if you can identify a morally wrong thing to do in EVE (of course within the EULA).
You feel bad when you take Boardwalk and Park Place from your friend while playing Monopoly? I tell the ****er he lost and is paying the next round...
You cannot possibly compare that. Betraying a friend in EVE is putting an end to the friendship in well ... I honestly can't think of any friendship lasting after such a betrayal, because friendships are built on trust.
I understand that this is a part of EVE, but please, do not insult my intelligence by comparing it to two friends playing monopoly.
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Cryptkiller
Minmatar Ebola Allstars
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Posted - 2011.01.19 11:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward
Originally by: Cryptkiller
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward Edited by: Charles Dexter Ward on 19/01/2011 10:28:42 So you two see NOTHING wrong in screwing over an EVE-friend? I remember reading about this scam where people infiltrated a corp and was there for 10+ months.
I know you people exist - that's not what I'm asking. I want to know if you can identify a morally wrong thing to do in EVE (of course within the EULA).
You feel bad when you take Boardwalk and Park Place from your friend while playing Monopoly? I tell the ****er he lost and is paying the next round...
You cannot possibly compare that. Betraying a friend in EVE is putting an end to the friendship in well ... I honestly can't think of any friendship lasting after such a betrayal, because friendships are built on trust.
I understand that this is a part of EVE, but please, do not insult my intelligence by comparing it to two friends playing monopoly.
You play EVE different than I do then I guess... I've been in several corps on several characters over the years, as well as in other games. An "EVE" friend is just that, someone who's friendship exists within the context of the game. I've rarely stayed "friends" with someone after my corp, guild etc. dissolved with exception of ones in which I was already RL friends with that person.
Sorry if I don't place the same value in online, in-game friendships as I would friendships in real life. I come here to play a game and to play a role outside of my normal way of interacting with people while in it.
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Alotta Baggage
Amarr Imperial Manufactorum Armada Assail
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Posted - 2011.01.19 11:21:00 -
[9]
I wouldn't trust my CEO with anything either than the "Usual"
Originally by: Magnus Andronicus ur character looks like a f***ing clown dude.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives Beer and Smoke Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.19 11:40:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Alotta Baggage I wouldn't trust my CEO with anything either than the "Usual"
Judging by your avatar, I can see (if not how babby was formed) but how babby results!
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Charles Dexter Ward
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.19 11:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cryptkiller
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward
Originally by: Cryptkiller
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward Edited by: Charles Dexter Ward on 19/01/2011 10:28:42 So you two see NOTHING wrong in screwing over an EVE-friend? I remember reading about this scam where people infiltrated a corp and was there for 10+ months.
I know you people exist - that's not what I'm asking. I want to know if you can identify a morally wrong thing to do in EVE (of course within the EULA).
You feel bad when you take Boardwalk and Park Place from your friend while playing Monopoly? I tell the ****er he lost and is paying the next round...
You cannot possibly compare that. Betraying a friend in EVE is putting an end to the friendship in well ... I honestly can't think of any friendship lasting after such a betrayal, because friendships are built on trust.
I understand that this is a part of EVE, but please, do not insult my intelligence by comparing it to two friends playing monopoly.
You play EVE different than I do then I guess... I've been in several corps on several characters over the years, as well as in other games. An "EVE" friend is just that, someone who's friendship exists within the context of the game. I've rarely stayed "friends" with someone after my corp, guild etc. dissolved with exception of ones in which I was already RL friends with that person.
Sorry if I don't place the same value in online, in-game friendships as I would friendships in real life. I come here to play a game and to play a role outside of my normal way of interacting with people while in it.
Do you want me to accept your apology, or why are you saying that you're 'sorry'? Either you are stupid and you don't understand me, or you pretend to be stupid while pretending not to understand me.
I know very well what EVE is and what kind of players that are playing it. I don't trust anyone in the game. The reason for the topic is to see if anyone of you can see a moral wrongdoing in EVE, because it would for example be a moral wrongdoing to 'scam' someone in 'Entropia Universe', but in EVE things are different, because the game revolves around a universe built by conflicts and drama. It makes it exciting in all kinds of ways.
The thing with EVE (and I'm going to try 'n explain it again) is that it is, just as I've said, built on criminal events. Other games are not. One should be more on his/hers guard in EVE, because it's not only a possibility you will lose your anal virginity, it's also very likely.
I refuse to believe that you people can separate your human emotions from the game. This does not include infiltrating a corp knowing all too well what you are about to do.
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.19 11:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward
Do you want me to accept your apology, or why are you saying that you're 'sorry'? Either you are stupid and you don't understand me, or you pretend to be stupid while pretending not to understand me.
Or maybe, just maybe, this is one of those rare instances where someone on the Internet has...brace for it...a DIFFERENT OPINION TO YOU!
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward
I refuse to believe that you people can separate your human emotions from the game. This does not include infiltrating a corp knowing all too well what you are about to do.
Refuse away. It's your loss.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives Beer and Smoke Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.19 11:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward you people
You ****ing racist
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Charles Dexter Ward
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.19 12:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward
Do you want me to accept your apology, or why are you saying that you're 'sorry'? Either you are stupid and you don't understand me, or you pretend to be stupid while pretending not to understand me.
Or maybe, just maybe, this is one of those rare instances where someone on the Internet has...brace for it...a DIFFERENT OPINION TO YOU!
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward
I refuse to believe that you people can separate your human emotions from the game. This does not include infiltrating a corp knowing all too well what you are about to do.
Refuse away. It's your loss.
I accept other people's opinions, but it feels as if you don't really understand where I'm getting at. Are you honestly telling me that you could befriend someone and then scam this person six months later, just because you want to act as a different person? I'm ... It's hard for me to understand that, I suppose. A friend is a friend. If you go into a relationship with the idea of scamming the person, then I understand, but if you go into a relationship as a friend, and thereafter scams the person, then I'd say it's morally wrong (not that I wouldn't want to try it and see if actually can 'feel' anything over it).
I am speaking strictly out of an objective perspective, because we would all agree that screwing a friend is immoral, although in EVE, it's socially accepted.
Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward you people
You ****ing racist
That was totally taken out of it context.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives Beer and Smoke Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.19 12:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward That was totally ... it[s] context.
Yeah it was, wasn't it, man
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.19 12:20:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jovan Geldon on 19/01/2011 12:20:49
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward Are you honestly telling me that you could befriend someone and then scam this person six months later
Yes. Yes I am.
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward A friend is a friend..*snip*
This is a game. There are no morals other than that which you define for yourself.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.01.19 12:33:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward
I accept other people's opinions, but it feels as if you don't really understand where I'm getting at. Are you honestly telling me that you could befriend someone and then scam this person six months later, just because you want to act as a different person? I'm ... It's hard for me to understand that, I suppose. A friend is a friend. If you go into a relationship with the idea of scamming the person, then I understand, but if you go into a relationship as a friend, and thereafter scams the person, then I'd say it's morally wrong (not that I wouldn't want to try it and see if actually can 'feel' anything over it).
I am speaking strictly out of an objective perspective, because we would all agree that screwing a friend is immoral, although in EVE, it's socially accepted.
If you want to act as a different person you befriend someone with the intention of screwing them over. If you roleplay as an *******, then you know from the very get-go that scamming is your final goal.
It would be nice to create a new alt to try to infiltrate some corp and relieve them of their hard earned isk, but I can't be bothered with investing months after months into befriending them.
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Diesel47
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Posted - 2011.01.19 13:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward For many players, including myself, crimes and scams aren't just parts of EVE - they ARE EVE. The politics and the social interaction always stays new and new drama occur; new scams come and new people are betrayed. Yet I cannot fathom how we can draw a line between what is socially acceptable ("nice scam, mate - you really got me") and what is morally intolerable.
Let's say I find a guy in space and I befriend him somewhat. We fly with each other day in and day out; killing people and so forth. After six months of total friendship, I see an opportunity to clean him dry of his billions of ISK - and I take it.
When this friends comes to this board telling you this story, some of you would say "it's EVE, bro - sorry for your lost" while others would say "what a ****ed up guy! Gimme his name and I'll F him over for you".
My point is that there's a thin line between what is socially acceptable in EVE, and what is morally wrong. How do we know when we are about to step to far? How do we excuse immoral behavior just because it's a part of EVE? Scamming a stranger is nothing. Scamming a friend is a totally different thing, but people can excuse their 'friendship' via it only being online.
What are your thoughts about this?
Don't listen to these guys, they just want to try to seem cool by acting like they have no morals or something equally stupid.
Making friends with somebody to rob them is a **** thing to do no matter what somebody tells you.
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Karl Planck
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Posted - 2011.01.19 14:09:00 -
[19]
Ok Charles, here is a serious answer to your question. If you are talking about simply stealing from someone (even if you have know them for a long time) there is no morallity involved with it. In game trust is set up simply for the game. Its obviously not the same as OOG friendship because your eve friends cant help you with anything outside of the game. If they hurt you its only within the context of the game (i.e. they take your isk, your social contacts, your plan for success, etc.). How is this associated with morality? It isn't. The only time morality comes into play is when you cross the game boundary and start attacking an actual person. Physical threats, racial hatred and other social ills that are generally considered immoral are prohibited in the game and CCP does do a good job of protecting those you are victims of actual immoral acts.
Remember, this is a ROLE PLAYING GAME and a lot of people find it pretty fun to play the role of an a**hole.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2011.01.19 14:17:00 -
[20]
Some of us bring our own moral code with us to Eve.
Some of us don't.
I use the same moral code I use in any other game - if I consider you a friend and an ally, I won't betray that trust. However, cynical as I am, I think I have about a dozen people in game that I feel that way about.
In general, I have three levels of moral obligation:
Friends/Allies: I'll lose a pod, without complaint, protecting your ****. I won't steal from you, and if I borrow some of your stuff and it gets broken, I'll replace it.
Corpmates/Alliance Mates: I'll protect your stuff, and I won't steal from you. I'll fly down if you need help - as long as you're willing to do the same. Screw me over and I will pod your ass until newbs in starter ships have more skill points.
Acquaintances: I'll lose my ship for you, if necessary. I won't steal from you, unless you're a complete douchebag, but don't expect me to fly halfway across the galaxy to save your ass.
Everyone Else: Fair Game. --Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
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Darth McDarth
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Posted - 2011.01.19 14:29:00 -
[21]
I am currently working my way up the ranks of a corp and befriending people expressly to gain rights so I can rob them blind.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2011.01.19 15:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward So you two see NOTHING wrong in screwing over an EVE-friend? I remember reading about this scam where people infiltrated a corp and was there for 10+ months.
I know you people exist - that's not what I'm asking. I want to know if you can identify a morally wrong thing to do in EVE (of course within the EULA).
Hi, I'm the guy from the scam you read about.
Morality... hmm. When you play Super Mario, do you feel that stomping on a Goomba is an immoral act? How about blowing away an Imp in Doom? Or fighting for the evil Caesar's Legion in Fallout: New Vegas?
The thing about morality, is that we all elect when to apply it. Those of us who play criminals in Eve make this decision more frequently than others. Eve, by design, is a game that rewards both good deeds (look at Chribba - all he did was be honest, and now he's Eve's most trusted middleman) and bad (i.e. almost everyone else.) Since the goal of Eve is neither to be good or evil, but merely filthy rich and extremely powerful, the path you take to that goal can be wholesome and friendly, or utterly drenched in screaming carebear blood.
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Cordo Draken
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Posted - 2011.01.19 17:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Some of us bring our own moral code with us to Eve.
Some of us don't.
I use the same moral code I use in any other game - if I consider you a friend and an ally, I won't betray that trust. However, cynical as I am, I think I have about a dozen people in game that I feel that way about.
In general, I have three levels of moral obligation:
Friends/Allies: I'll lose a pod, without complaint, protecting your ****. I won't steal from you, and if I borrow some of your stuff and it gets broken, I'll replace it.
Corpmates/Alliance Mates: I'll protect your stuff, and I won't steal from you. I'll fly down if you need help - as long as you're willing to do the same. Screw me over and I will pod your ass until newbs in starter ships have more skill points.
Acquaintances: I'll lose my ship for you, if necessary. I won't steal from you, unless you're a complete douchebag, but don't expect me to fly halfway across the galaxy to save your ass.
Everyone Else: Fair Game.
This is probably the best answer yet as to how I think most would define this thought, at least this goes for me. I have different levels of loyalty.
I find it funny though how people are guarding the true heart of morality with the Technical game mechanics. You're all basically saying that the moment you play Eve, you have no soul... You are now Satan's child and will sell your family to slavery if it means you can get a few ISK richer. What a disgrace.
I am by no means a nice guy in game, unless you're a friend or ally. I am a nice guy in RL, and i've actually created RL friends through Eve. Trust, as mentioned, is the base of your morality. I could never screw over a friend whom I've established that trust. I wouldn't ever want Eve to be a Carebear land though... I think aside from some overly carebear alerts, it's fine the way it is. People in general are naive and short sighted that need to learn the standard harshness of life. Yes, pretty much anything is fair game, but if a trusted friend can no longer trust you... You're beyond lost in feeling, beyond any game mechanics shield.
Personally, I pirate/grief in game because it's different than what I would typically do. I suppose it's morally questionable too for me, but I hardly think it's crossing that moral line... And exercising our freedom in Eve to play different ppl is a fun and challenging way to express ourselves without getting locked up. Also, it's a great way to relieve the strains/frustrations of a rough RL day... Afterall you can't orbit the a$$ that just cut you off in traffic, endangering everyone around, and shred his car with autocannons. Ahhh, perhaps someday, but Eve will allow me to cope for now. ;)
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.01.19 18:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cordo Draken You are now Satan's child and will sell your family to slavery if it means you can get a few ISK richer. What a disgrace.
Before you judge me take a look at you Can't you find something better to do Point the finger, slow to understand Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand
It's not you are it's who you know Others lives are the basis of your own Burn your bridges and build them back with wealth Judge not lest ye be judged yourself
Holier than thou You are Holier than thou You are
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EddieRio
Minmatar Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.01.19 18:08:00 -
[25]
I like it when the red water comes out...
Why, have my trousers fallen down...
Oh, I see your point...
Why, have my trousers fallen down...
Oh, I see your point...
Why, have my trousers fallen down...
Oh, I see your point...
Why, have my trousers fallen down...
Oh, I see your point...
Soon the repetition became boring, was a point even made you have to ask yourself?
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Toilarmius
Minmatar Auxilia Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.01.19 18:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward What are your thoughts about this?
Choose the one that doesn't belong:
Eve Online Scamming Moral Behavior Internet Spaceshipzzz Game
Originally by: CCP Fallout I can scan (but don't have time atm) a picture of one of my mother's modeling photos and you'd see hers as well, and she's more obviously a women than I'll ever be.
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Cordo Draken
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Posted - 2011.01.19 18:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: Cordo Draken You are now Satan's child and will sell your family to slavery if it means you can get a few ISK richer. What a disgrace.
Before you judge me take a look at you Can't you find something better to do Point the finger, slow to understand Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand
It's not you are it's who you know Others lives are the basis of your own Burn your bridges and build them back with wealth Judge not lest ye be judged yourself
Holier than thou You are Holier than thou You are
I applaud your Metallica reference. Btw, we're all judged, by all who are sinners in equal, yet there are none who are more blind than those who will not see. Seek the light of the one pure judge and ye shall be redeemed. Yeah, I went there.
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Captain Phil
Gallente Empire of Phillip
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Posted - 2011.01.19 18:55:00 -
[28]
It's comes to the simplest form of "badness."
Lying. Deception. Dishonesty. Whatever you want to call it. Regardless of the circumstances, a lie is a lie. Some people feel that because this is a game, lies are less bad. It depends on the individual when and where they'll employ this tactic. Some will do it for a small payout, some only for a very large payout. Maybe I'll only lie to players I've only known for six months or less. Again, it comes down to the individual.
And, yes, EvE is very much like playing Monopoly. The differences? With Monopoly, you're physically next to the person you're playing with, and the time invested is far smaller.
Take, for instance, a group of friends playing Dungeons and Dragons together, and taking on a campaign that has lasted for several months. They've built up their characters (on paper), and acquired better equipment. Now, if one player kills his friend (in-game) in order to take his +5 Vorpal Long Sword, and, as a result, causes his friend to have to start his character over at level 1, do you think that'll have an affect on their friendship? My guess is that it would.
Either way, we all have a choice: To take this game seriously, or not. I do, to a degree. If a guy scams me, not as a personal attack, but as him using a game mechanic in his favor, ok. Sucks for me, but, ok.
But if a guy scams me, and calls me a noob scrub that needs to learn to play, that's a different issue.
I'll break my keyboard and throw my monitor out the window. Yeah, that'll show him.
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Captain Phil
Gallente Empire of Phillip
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Posted - 2011.01.19 19:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Cordo Draken
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: Cordo Draken You are now Satan's child and will sell your family to slavery if it means you can get a few ISK richer. What a disgrace.
Before you judge me take a look at you Can't you find something better to do Point the finger, slow to understand Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand
It's not you are it's who you know Others lives are the basis of your own Burn your bridges and build them back with wealth Judge not lest ye be judged yourself
Holier than thou You are Holier than thou You are
I applaud your Metallica reference. Btw, we're all judged, by all who are sinners in equal, yet there are none who are more blind thanthose who will not see. Seek the light of the one pure judge and ye shall be redeemed. Yeah, I went there.
It's times like these that I ask myself "What would Jesus do?" Would he be playing EvE Online, let alone arguing on the forums about morality and ethics in MMOs? No.
This is not the place.
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Barashi Nugan
Gallente Zero Point Group
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Posted - 2011.01.19 19:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Friends/Allies: I'll lose a pod, without complaint, protecting your ****. I won't steal from you, and if I borrow some of your stuff and it gets broken, I'll replace it.
Corpmates/Alliance Mates: I'll protect your stuff, and I won't steal from you. I'll fly down if you need help - as long as you're willing to do the same. Screw me over and I will pod your ass until newbs in starter ships have more skill points.
Acquaintances: I'll lose my ship for you, if necessary. I won't steal from you, unless you're a complete douchebag, but don't expect me to fly halfway across the galaxy to save your ass.
Everyone Else: Fair Game.
This is pretty close to my general idea of morals in Eve. The only exception is the "Everyone Else" bit. Even if I don't know you, or don't like you, I won't break a deal or a promise. This rule is extended to my corporation as well, and is strictly enforced.
Doing otherwise is just bad business.
Note: This does not exclude our members from pulling your hair, repeatedly kicking sand in your face, or refusing to be your friend.
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