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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:30:00 -
[1]
Hi all, Warning, this is a lengthy post, I tried to do my homework for it:
I promise this isnÆt a troll. I have an honest question and would like a mature, but honest response.
I'm relatively new here, but I have spent a good deal of time (when I'm not playing eve) scanning the forums trying to get to know the populous and general demeanor of these so called ôcapsule pilotsö. From an æobservesÆ point of view, I would like to pose a much debated question.
HereÆs my question: Why do people hate macro miners?
Let me explain my point of viewà You can tell a lot about a game, about how the people who respond to it when they are angry. For example, in the crime and punishment section I found many, many posts expressing anger towards ore thieves. The victim feels robbed, posts angrily about itàand moves on with is eve life.
Lets look at pirats. I read another post where a smaller alliance was moving billions of isk worth of station equipment to a null sec system they had recently rented from a larger allianceàduring transport they got caught in a gate camp. The event lost them so much the entire corporation disbanded. The victims were angry, posted their griefà.and moved on with their eve lives.
ItÆs safe to say (CCP even admits it) that cheating and robbing people out of their hard earned isk and items is as much a part of the game as anything. (letÆs not forget market scams)
àbasically you can do pretty much anything you want in eve. And even if you step on someoneÆs toes, angry posts are sent out, griefers are labeled and players move on.
So to reiterate my question: out of all the dirty things and bad behavior that is in eve. Why is it, that the one naughty thing to do, that angers more people than any other topicàis also one of the most passive? Think about itàhas a macroÆer ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?
Before I continue, I do want to point out that it is against the EULA to use macros, so we all know CCPÆs stance on it. LetÆs face it, it is cheatingàIÆll agree there. And the ones who use macro profit to RMT have been justly banned, I could see how that profit is infringing on CCPÆs domain, they had every right and reason to ban RMTÆs, and IÆm gladàthe last thing we need is to see 500 spam bots in local. (Diablo II is damn near unplayable now cause of RMT and spam bots)
That being said, it is by far the least æaggressiveÆ form of cheating someone out ofàanything. The way I see it, macroÆer cheat CCP more than individual players, they exploit an in game design. I have a few theories and I had to ask myself, what are the effects of macro mining? LetÆs start with the obvious:
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RaTTuS
BIG Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:32:00 -
[2]
This Thread please --
Join BIG
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:32:00 -
[3]
Macros are fine. Next.
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Turzyx
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:37:00 -
[4]
Quote: Why do people hate macro miners?
Because they are cheating; people hate cheaters.
/thread
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rock crawlermne
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:39:00 -
[5]
Edited by: rock crawlermne on 21/01/2011 16:40:01 1)The macro pilot will be able to sell the ore/ice in mass quantities. Thus lowering the overall price of ore. But does this really affect the market in a bad way? a.Professional REAL high-sec miners make less money, that is true b.Lower ore prices could lead to more ships/items being manufactured c.Keep in mind, most people would agree that the majority of macroÆers are in high sec. is it possible to assume that as the price of high sec minerals drop, the price of Null sec minerals increase as more ships are being built, thus more null sec mins are being purchased? Real Null-sec miners make more money? 2)The macro pilot will be able to buy PLEX for his account a.Remember CCP makes mega $$ off of PLEX. Think of it this way, if I pay for a year, I just paid CCP 130 bucksà.if in that year I also buy 2 PLEX to sell for isk, I just paid an additional 30 bucks. ThatÆs essentially my paying for 14months of eve in a 12 month span. b.As far as CCP is concerned, the pilot has been paid for, wither you do it or a macro pilot with your PLEX that you just bought does it, CCP still gets paid. c.Also why I donÆt think CCP will deal with macro issue on a large scale as they did w/ RMTÆs.
I really am trying to maintain a neutral stance here, I realize that I may have inadvertently defended macro use in eve. So hereÆs something from the opposite side. My addicting game before Eve was Diablo II. Loved itàhad a lvl 99 all lightning sorceress that could seriously kick some ass. Had my own æclanÆ, we had our own channel everything. Lots of good times. That game, has been completely overrun with spam bots for RMT. ItÆs damn near unplayable now, they come into your game and SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM to the point you canÆt even type to your friends. I have no doubt itÆs what set standards for such harsh punishments to bots in WOW (FYI, WOW and Diablo II are both Blizzard owned). IÆve seen the bad side of bots. It would break my little nerd gaming heart to see that happen to eve. But CCP has put a nice hault on RMT. Thank GOD!
IÆm truly interested in good opinions. Feel free to flame me if you want but it wonÆt help anyone.
sorry for the poor editing, im at work lol will have to get back and fix some typos
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:39:00 -
[6]
if you want to play the game, you should play the game.
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Pearre Dash
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:42:00 -
[7]
Because 99% of macro miners are involved with RMT, and RMT is a blight upon the landscape.
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Multiple Sargasm
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:49:00 -
[8]
Because having an automated tool playing a game defeats the normal purpose of having a game in the first place.
There are exceptions of course, like for scientific use designing AIs and such.
If a bot is considered needed in a specific game, the real issue is probably game design or player mentality. The solution is not to use a bot but to change the game to make it playable by humans.
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rock crawlermne
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Pearre Dash RMT is a blight upon the landscape.
well spoken.
and what of the people not involved in RMT?
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:52:00 -
[10]
The people who use macros "have". The people who don't use them "have not". People will inherently hate anyone else who has more than them, or has to work less to accomplish the same as them. ---
Originally by: Sporked EVE IS DYING RUN TO THE HILLS! WE MIGHT HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS MMO! THEY MIGHT SHOOT AT US WHILE WE ARE BUSY HOLDING HANDS AND FROLICKING! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:55:00 -
[11]
Edited by: NinjaSpud on 21/01/2011 16:55:44
Originally by: Sarina Berghil If a bot is considered needed in a specific game, the real issue is probably game design or player mentality. The solution is not to use a bot but to change the game to make it playable by humans.
I like this.
I've never said this to my friends, but I support Hulkageddon. Not beacause of the carebear grief (unfortuniate victims to this war) but because its real purpose...to keep the botting in check.
think of it, without CCP'S help, the community has found a way to balance out the bots and keep them paranoid of being ganked....very kewl +1 to the game. I agree with you thuogh, the best andswer would be a better solution to makeing money and getting minerals.
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MoonDragn
Caldari J0urneys End
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Posted - 2011.01.21 16:57:00 -
[12]
It really doesn't matter what people think about Macroers. CCP has cracked down on macroers since the beginning of the game and they have never changed that policy. Even back when people were macro mining velspar, they were cracking down.
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Cruel Crow
Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.01.21 17:08:00 -
[13]
omg this subject older then I am..
there more macro now then when I started
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rock crawlermne
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Posted - 2011.01.21 17:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash The people who use macros "have". The people who don't use them "have not". People will inherently hate anyone else who has more than them, or has to work less to accomplish the same as them.
Can it be as simple as jealousy?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.21 17:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: rock crawlermne Can it be as simple as jealousy?
No. Or well, yes, it can be a cause that is as simple as jealousy, but jealousy is not that cause, though. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Stephen Root
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Posted - 2011.01.21 17:26:00 -
[16]
The reason I hate macro miners which I'm sure some ppl feel the same way is that its against the rules. Hence I don't do it because CCP says I'll be banned.
They do do it and don't get banned and thats why I hate them.
If I did do it wouldn't be for RMT but so I could enjoy the game more when I did play.
I enjoy eve and like my characters, I don't want them to get banned, yet it seems there is no real punishment for ppl using macros who dont do RMT.
So.. yeah.. jealousy
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laksmi2
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Posted - 2011.01.21 17:30:00 -
[17]
macros devaluate the work of non-macroplayers. kill them all.
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Crucis Cassiopeiae
Amarr PORSCHE AG
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Posted - 2011.01.21 17:31:00 -
[18]
it seems that macro users have the most of fun in EVE... :(
real players must work for things in EVE, and criminals have it all on platter and use that stolen resources against real players (kill you with ship that is bought with stollen isk) "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" |
Winterjack
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Posted - 2011.01.21 17:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: NinjaSpud I promise this isnÆt a troll. I have an honest question and would like a mature, but honest response.
I'll bite.
Quote: ItÆs safe to say (CCP even admits it) that cheating and robbing people out of their hard earned isk and items is as much a part of the game as anything. (letÆs not forget market scams)
That's in-game cheating. Using player skills and smarts and in-game tools to obtain a profit. EVE is about profit.
Quote: Why is it, that the one naughty thing to do, that angers more people than any other topicàis also one of the most passive? Think about itàhas a macroÆer ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?
Break ore market, suck up all the roids so that us poor fellows that login at 5-6pm evetime can forget about being miners, gain an advantage over legitimate players by using a trick that is against the EULA to take the profit out of my hands. When my profit as a miner goes down from 10 millions an hour to barely 2 millions an hour, this is a problem. And this is because they do not work for that money - they're not watching strip miners and move mineral around. They're out working like me, but they're still making money due to a breakage of the EULA. But don't get me wrong, I'm not angry. I just want their use of macro to stop.
Quote: That being said, it is by far the least æaggressiveÆ form of cheating someone out ofàanything. The way I see it, macroÆer cheat CCP more than individual players, they exploit an in game design.
You said it yourself, you're new here. EVE is about profit. The killboards don't just show amount of ships destroyed, it's ISK value that matters. EVE is economy driven from head to toe. When you deprive me of my hard-earned isk, you are effectively aggressing me. If you do it in a legitimate way (harassing, outmining, merc hunting, market wars...) I can retaliate and this is a war in pure eve-style.
If you do it by mining 23.5/7, the only way I have to counter is use a bot myself. Which, besides being stupid (as you don't know what the bot really does besides sending commands to eve), is against the EULA. Thus, I have no option to retaliate and I succumb. Or go do something else, as most of my friends who used to mine have done so far... including myself.
And don't be mistaken, macroers flourish in nullsec as well, since most nullsec systems are heavily defended and you can be cozy and safe most of the times. Hell, you can be pretty safe even in losec, if you do it right.
"A good general wins many battles. A true master of strategy subdues the enemy without fighting." - Sun Tzu, Ping Fa |
Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.01.21 18:00:00 -
[20]
Macro miners result in a drop in mineral prices and everything made from said minerals. At first this sounds like a push, the hours I need to mine in order to buy a new shiny does not change. BUT
Macro miners buy PLEX with isk, thus pushing the isk price of a PLEX up. Because of macro miners, the hours I have to mine in order to buy a PLEX increases.
Others changing how I play by doing valid in-game actions: I may cry, but thats the game.
Others changing how I play by cheating: Not acceptable.
Also, yes people get ganked by macro miners, when those same people take their isk and buy gank ships. And they can do that over and over with a virtually unlimited isk supply, without having to earn that isk.
If you get hot dropped by a super carrier fleet in 0.0, there is a chance that fleet exists due to macro use.
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Crucis Cassiopeiae
Amarr PORSCHE AG
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Posted - 2011.01.21 18:09:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 21/01/2011 18:11:02 I wont worry if botters would not affect my game experiance... but they are...
- the problem is that ore that I mine becouse of bots worth 2 to 3 times less... - the problem is that plex becouse of bots costs 1,5 to 2 times more... - the problem is that I cant even mine that much ore becouse bots mine out belts before i come online... - the problem is that when i kill them they just buy new ship and when they kill me i must earn for new ship... - the problem is that they play the game and dont have to worry about ISK, and i must calculate can i afford to play the game that way or i must wait to play it becouse i dont have ISK for that ship or something... - the problem is that they play the game only when its fun and I must to do less fun parts for longer time becouse of them....
they are ruining the game for real ppl... "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.21 18:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: NinjaSpud Hi all, Warning, this is a lengthy post, I tried to do my homework for it:
I promise this isnÆt a troll. I have an honest question and would like a mature, but honest response.
I'm relatively new here, but I have spent a good deal of time (when I'm not playing eve) scanning the forums trying to get to know the populous and general demeanor of these so called ôcapsule pilotsö. From an æobservesÆ point of view, I would like to pose a much debated question.
HereÆs my question: Why do people hate macro miners?
Let me explain my point of viewà You can tell a lot about a game, about how the people who respond to it when they are angry. For example, in the crime and punishment section I found many, many posts expressing anger towards ore thieves. The victim feels robbed, posts angrily about itàand moves on with is eve life.
Lets look at pirats. I read another post where a smaller alliance was moving billions of isk worth of station equipment to a null sec system they had recently rented from a larger allianceàduring transport they got caught in a gate camp. The event lost them so much the entire corporation disbanded. The victims were angry, posted their griefà.and moved on with their eve lives.
ItÆs safe to say (CCP even admits it) that cheating and robbing people out of their hard earned isk and items is as much a part of the game as anything. (letÆs not forget market scams)
àbasically you can do pretty much anything you want in eve. And even if you step on someoneÆs toes, angry posts are sent out, griefers are labeled and players move on.
So to reiterate my question: out of all the dirty things and bad behavior that is in eve. Why is it, that the one naughty thing to do, that angers more people than any other topicàis also one of the most passive? Think about itàhas a macroÆer ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?
Before I continue, I do want to point out that it is against the EULA to use macros, so we all know CCPÆs stance on it. LetÆs face it, it is cheatingàIÆll agree there. And the ones who use macro profit to RMT have been justly banned, I could see how that profit is infringing on CCPÆs domain, they had every right and reason to ban RMTÆs, and IÆm gladàthe last thing we need is to see 500 spam bots in local. (Diablo II is damn near unplayable now cause of RMT and spam bots)
That being said, it is by far the least æaggressiveÆ form of cheating someone out ofàanything. The way I see it, macroÆer cheat CCP more than individual players, they exploit an in game design. I have a few theories and I had to ask myself, what are the effects of macro mining? LetÆs start with the obvious:
So to condense your argument:
Since there are things that are within EVEs rules which are against the rules in other games, why shouldn't we do things that are against the rules in EVE?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Ms Sade
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Posted - 2011.01.21 19:02:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: NinjaSpud Hi all, Warning, this is a lengthy post, I tried to do my homework for it:
I promise this isnÆt a troll. I have an honest question and would like a mature, but honest response.
I'm relatively new here, but I have spent a good deal of time (when I'm not playing eve) scanning the forums trying to get to know the populous and general demeanor of these so called ôcapsule pilotsö. From an æobservesÆ point of view, I would like to pose a much debated question.
HereÆs my question: Why do people hate macro miners?
Let me explain my point of viewà You can tell a lot about a game, about how the people who respond to it when they are angry. For example, in the crime and punishment section I found many, many posts expressing anger towards ore thieves. The victim feels robbed, posts angrily about itàand moves on with is eve life.
Lets look at pirats. I read another post where a smaller alliance was moving billions of isk worth of station equipment to a null sec system they had recently rented from a larger allianceàduring transport they got caught in a gate camp. The event lost them so much the entire corporation disbanded. The victims were angry, posted their griefà.and moved on with their eve lives.
ItÆs safe to say (CCP even admits it) that cheating and robbing people out of their hard earned isk and items is as much a part of the game as anything. (letÆs not forget market scams)
àbasically you can do pretty much anything you want in eve. And even if you step on someoneÆs toes, angry posts are sent out, griefers are labeled and players move on.
So to reiterate my question: out of all the dirty things and bad behavior that is in eve. Why is it, that the one naughty thing to do, that angers more people than any other topicàis also one of the most passive? Think about itàhas a macroÆer ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?
Before I continue, I do want to point out that it is against the EULA to use macros, so we all know CCPÆs stance on it. LetÆs face it, it is cheatingàIÆll agree there. And the ones who use macro profit to RMT have been justly banned, I could see how that profit is infringing on CCPÆs domain, they had every right and reason to ban RMTÆs, and IÆm gladàthe last thing we need is to see 500 spam bots in local. (Diablo II is damn near unplayable now cause of RMT and spam bots)
That being said, it is by far the least æaggressiveÆ form of cheating someone out ofàanything. The way I see it, macroÆer cheat CCP more than individual players, they exploit an in game design. I have a few theories and I had to ask myself, what are the effects of macro mining? LetÆs start with the obvious:
So to condense your argument:
Since there are things that are within EVEs rules which are against the rules in other games, why shouldn't we do things that are against the rules in EVE?
insightful but lacking the all important comb over...
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2011.01.21 19:16:00 -
[24]
People who rob and steal from you in game are using game mechanics to get ahead. They are doing their dirty deeds IN the game, USING the game. Macroers are getting ahead by using forces OUTSIDE of the game.
Furthermore, macroers are affecting the market, and screwing it up for everyone else who plays by the rules. They are also making isk hand over fist, and using that isk in game to buy whatever they want.
Macroers affect the market in two ways. They flood it with minerals at cheap prices, screwing over everyone else that has worked hard for that stuff. Then they use their alts to buy whatever they want, at whatever price they want, making goods more expensive in some cases, and cheaper in other cases. They also cause huge market fluctuations. I will use the Raven as a simple example. The Raven can range anywhere from 70 mil to 90 mil, depending on the region, and depending on when you look. A 20 mil fluctuation is massive, and hurts everyone. This makes markets impossible to predict, and long and short term profits also impossible to predict. This adds an element to corporation management that shouldn't be there.
These are the reasons I don't like macroers that don't RMT.
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.01.21 19:44:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 21/01/2011 19:48:59
Originally by: rock crawlermne
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash The people who use macros "have". The people who don't use them "have not". People will inherently hate anyone else who has more than them, or has to work less to accomplish the same as them.
Can it be as simple as jealousy?
Since I'm one of those that HATES unattended play and RMT in MMOs I can't be objective, but I don't think it's jealousy. For me, there are 2 major problems
First is that those who use macros, bots & RMT raise the bar of 'success'. Since there is no way to win an MMO, all we can do is to measure our success against everyone else, by whatever metric we feel is important. Be it isk in wallet, control of markets, control of space, or simply flying the biggest baddest toy on the block, having a string of bots at your service to get you more stuff, or RMTing for your goodies, means that those of us who choose to live by our own strengths have a harder time keeping up with the Joneses. I may be able to 'win' against you, but I can't win against you and your 5 farmer bots that play 23/7. If there's little or no chance of winning, why should I bother playing the game? It'd be like playing chess, but I start without my rooks and knights.
Second is when it changes the way the game is played. Warfare in EvE used to be about attrition. Small battles made a difference since you could wear on your opponents' resources and stores of materials. When cash and materials are free for all as long as the bots are out in force, the only effective method of combat becomes crushing force. Crush your enemy in one blow or the battle means nothing. Fail to crush your enemy, and he'll be just as strong next weekend thanks to his bots.
As I see it, EvE has picked up two new breeds of players: those that want to play in arena mode where the outcome of a battle has little or no meaning to the next battle, and those that are more interested in having their 'win' than they are in getting their 'win'. For those players, bots & RMT are a work around to the grind inherent to any MMO.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.21 20:09:00 -
[26]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
I've never said this to my friends, but I support Hulkageddon. Not beacause of the carebear grief (unfortuniate victims to this war) but because its real purpose...to keep the botting in check.
think of it, without CCP'S help, the community has found a way to balance out the bots and keep them paranoid of being ganked....very kewl +1 to the game. I agree with you thuogh, the best andswer would be a better solution to makeing money and getting minerals.
Not really. The bots are a convenient excuse but hulkageddon don't target them more than real miners.
Seeing how (at least reading the forums) a big number of bots macrorat in 0.0 drone regions it is pretty useless going after people mining in high sec.
The hate for bots is a mixed thing: - hate for RMTers; - hate for people botting for personal use (but when the player is doing it himself he find a lot of excuse) - hate for anyone that don't play like you and so claiming he is a botter - hate because they don't "bleed" when you cut them, so it is not "fun" to kill them and so on.
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rock crawlermne
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Posted - 2011.01.21 20:21:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil The solution is not to use a bot but to change the game to make it playable by humans.
I really like this statement
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.21 20:44:00 -
[28]
WOW I'm glad I got such a huge responce.
Durnin Stormbrow made a very good point.
I can honestly tell you that I hadn't looked at it like that.
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huggypants
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Posted - 2011.01.21 20:57:00 -
[29]
1. Not sure if you're a troll. 2. Botting is cheating. 3. Macroing is botting. 4. Botting is cheating.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.22 00:43:00 -
[30]
Mostly it's just people without any ideas of their own jumping on band-waggons and being angry bout dumb ****.
At the end of the day it happens to a miner when they realise they've wasted 6 months on a boring mechanic that does not make much isk.
Meanwhile their mate makes twice the isk with no effort and gets to blow **** up and collect tears all day.
Either they quit or persist and become an anti-macro evangalist and then quit.
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.01.22 01:19:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 22/01/2011 01:20:37
Originally by: NinjaSpud it is against the EULA to use macros, so we all know CCPÆs stance on it. LetÆs face it, it is cheatingàIÆll agree there. [..] That being said, it is by far the least æaggressiveÆ form of cheating someone out ofàanything.
It is the most aggressive form of cheating, as botting creates huge passive "material" faucets, thereby devaluating manual human effort of other players, thereby getting an unsportsmanlike advantage. They are the ones doping themselves. They are scum. And you don't seem to really agree.
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Ribyrus
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Posted - 2011.01.22 02:01:00 -
[32]
CCP should incorporate built-in macros to level the playing field, then balance the system around it. As it is, mining feels incredibly fruitless, because you KNOW that you are wasting hours of your own time doing the most boring thing imaginable, while other players are sleeping, watching a movie, or playing another game and accomplishing the same thing.
You are delusional if you think that such a boring profession will not be dominated by macroers one way or the other, no matter how hard they crack down on them. This means that there will be inequality until macroing is embraced.
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Scorpyn
Warp Ghosts Omega Spectres of the Deep
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Posted - 2011.01.22 02:18:00 -
[33]
Originally by: NinjaSpud HereÆs my question: Why do people hate macro miners?
Originally by: NinjaSpud LetÆs face it, it is cheatingà
There you go, you answered it yourself.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.22 02:51:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 22/01/2011 02:52:22
Originally by: Ribyrus CCP should incorporate built-in macros to level the playing field, then balance the system around it.
Amen. Macro's are symptom of boring gameplay and unimaginative UI.
A UI were users compete to create the most efficient mining "programs" would suit this profession better. When I first started playing I was kinda shocked that mining ships were manually piloted in this future sci-fi age.
Look at CounterStrike.... A whole FPS game based purely on bots and people perfecting them.
Some people like this kinda stuff, often the same type of people that like logistics chains and things like mining.
I like many others would enjoy playing Eve this way given a CCP approved choice.
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F0rum Tr0ll
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.01.22 04:31:00 -
[35]
Edited by: F0rum Tr0ll on 22/01/2011 04:36:27 I hate mining, but if I could mine legally with a macro I might. It would allow me to enjoy the game by jumping on vent and hanging out with the corpmates.
If they made it where you could macro mine for a few hours before you exhausted your crew or whatever. Putting some sort of limit on it. That might be fair...
Basically, I'm for macro mining because it would be less mouse-clicking online. Too much mouse clicking in this game.
You really should be able to become a mining manager and simply have to oversee your operation, instead of mouse clicking it.
Imagine if you could buy a crew to run your mining barge, then train them to become more efficient. Adds content/new skills to train/more satisfaction. Less mouse clicking.
Rat botting is a different animal cause its not as social as a mining op. Make mining less soul-crushing. ----------------------------------- They see me trollin... |
masternerdguy
Gallente Meerkat Maner
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Posted - 2011.01.22 04:34:00 -
[36]
Why do people hate macro miners?
I direct you to exhibit A
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Hows This Fun
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Posted - 2011.01.22 04:36:00 -
[37]
I thought 90% of miners botted macro'd, was on mumble the other night and this miner was talking about using mouse macro's and how every miner he knows uses them and its not cheating because it's not faster than a human.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2011.01.22 04:51:00 -
[38]
Its important to realise the scope of the problem and the purported profits of people who have supposedly outed the botting system.
One guy claimed he was able to make 400 billion isk per month. This is the equivalent of 20 supercarriers. If you are not botting yourself how can you possibly compete against a botter like that.
Even making a quarter of that still provides the botter with 5 SC per month whereas your likely to get 1 or less per month.
Theres also the question of CCP's game and its credibility. Many people will hear about EvE being filled with bots and that will damage CCP's reputation, cause potential new players to not subcribe. Personally one of the first things I do when I check out a new game I might want to subscribe to is check the level of botting, ingame cheats and the d00d population. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.01.22 07:15:00 -
[39]
As far as allowing macros: There are people who run macro supercarriers which rat, earning well over a billion a day, per macro. The they run several on one computer. This is a rather major warpage of the eve economy, and not something we should accept.
Also there is this misconception about a statement in the EULA. It says you cannot use macros to make isk faster than possible with normal game play. That seems to allow use of inefficient macros. BUT: That statement does not specify a time frame, it applies to ALL time frames. So imagine a race between a player and a macro. In one hour the player may well win over the macro. But in one week the player will lose, due to pauses for things like sleep, work, etc. Thus the macro is illegal.
About making the game so complex only a human can play it: A computer is presently world chess champion. Google has computers driving cars, in traffic. Given that, is it possible to make eve unplayable by a computer, and still playable by a human? I really do not want to have to be better than the best world chess champion just to mine.
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Bryg Philomena
Don't Taze Me Bro
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Posted - 2011.01.22 09:02:00 -
[40]
Mining is ****ing boring, and thats the sticky of it.
They make what? 4m an hour? oh no! I cannot possibly compete with 4 ****ing mil an hour. How about I run a mission and make 25-30m an hour.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars???
Your signature |
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Rin Vires
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Posted - 2011.01.22 10:48:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Bryg Philomena Mining is ****ing boring, and thats the sticky of it.
They make what? 4m an hour? oh no! I cannot possibly compete with 4 ****ing mil an hour. How about I run a mission and make 25-30m an hour.
Did you even read the post above you? Because it makes you look like a total idiot.
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Killer Gandry
Caldari Red Horizon Inc
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Posted - 2011.01.22 11:22:00 -
[42]
Ok, a lenghty reply from me then.
I also promiss my reply won't be a troll. I have an honest answer and will respond mature.
I am not relativly new here and I spend less time on the forums than when I first started. Yes your question is much debated and boiled down to it's bare essentials.
It's not just macro miners but also macro ratters, macro traders and any other macro used which is hated by real gamers.
Let me explain my point of vieuw: EVE is a MMORPG and that stands for Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. Not Massive Macro Online Role Playing Game.
Whereas Orethieves have to play to steal Ore or a loss in assets by a gatecamp or even the theft of assets by a Corpthieve are all playeractions.
These are deliberate choices which happen within the frame of EVE and which are an intricate part of the game.
So yes, you can do basicly pretty much anything in EVE. CCP has created a game with very wide boundries. However it's not without boundries.
Now back to macro's. Those aren't player actions, those are merely certain keystrokes build into a program to mimic a part of gameplay without actually participating in the gameplay.
Main reason is to gain an unfair advantage over legal players due to the nature a legal player can't and won't do the same thing over and over 23/7.
CCP clearly stated that the use of Macro's is a no-go and as such they are well within their right to do so, if not only because of the simple fact that they own the game.
But also the fact that Macro's are a pain to the economy.
They destroy a lot of gamingfun of the real gamer and let's face it. The most annoying part is the socalled RMT which affects way too many games already.
The use of macro's actually is the only cheating whereas corptheft, ganking etc are all within legal gamerules and as such are part of the legal gameplay.
So in short: The useage of macro's in a game have a far greater effect in terms of ruining gameplay. They also ruin gamefun.
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Avila Cracko
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Posted - 2011.01.22 12:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Bryg Philomena Mining is ****ing boring, and thats the sticky of it.
They make what? 4m an hour? oh no! I cannot possibly compete with 4 ****ing mil an hour. How about I run a mission and make 25-30m an hour.
so you say that all people must run missions??? all missions and nothing but a missions so help you God
i dont know why CCP did implement all other things in the game then... :/
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Dev Jah
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Posted - 2011.01.22 13:23:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Bryg Philomena Mining is ****ing boring, and thats the sticky of it.
They make what? 4m an hour? oh no! I cannot possibly compete with 4 ****ing mil an hour. How about I run a mission and make 25-30m an hour.
Ugh... There are bots effectively playing the market making billions each day, there are bots doing missions at the same efficiency you are.
But lets say each bot max out at 4m/hour:
4 x 23,5 = 94m ISK 94 x 30 = 2820m ISK
94m ISK a day, 2820m/2,82b ISK a month.
You make 30m/hour?
30 x X = 2820 X = 2820/30 X = 94 hours
You would need to spend 94 hours (3 days and 22 hours) each month running missions nonstop to be on par with said bot, that is 3 hours and 8 minutes each day. Knock yourself out...
And this is what, probably the least profitable bots out there?
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Hroya
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Posted - 2011.01.22 13:39:00 -
[45]
OP, are you in the assumption that mature responses are dishonest by default ?
Why do you ask a question when you also include an answer ?
Your post wasnt lenghty.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.01.22 13:47:00 -
[46]
Basicly ppl who try to make their living in EVE in a way that doesn't break the UELA cannot compete with the cheats or RMT criminals who Macromine.
If you cannot compete why bother.
If noone bothers apart from macros/botters then the mining side of it isn't really player run.
If it isn't player run then the whole point of the EVE economy being player driven and what it is supposed to be is totaly pointless.
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.23 02:24:00 -
[47]
Originally by: masternerdguy Why do people hate macro miners?
I direct you to exhibit A
wow that has got to be one of the funniest fan vids ever....very nice I Totaly LOL'd
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rock crawlermne
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Posted - 2011.01.23 02:33:00 -
[48]
Edited by: rock crawlermne on 23/01/2011 02:33:50 edit...wrong post sorry
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.23 02:36:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Hroya OP, are you in the assumption that mature responses are dishonest by default ?
Originally by: Hroya
Why do you ask a question when you also include an answer ?
I was trying to keep the flaming down to a minimal...macro use is a touch subject for alot of people I've noticed.
that and I want to know why....why is this form of cheating such a growl with people. I remember then Diablo II started using lvl bots and map hacks...no one really cared.
Originally by: Killer Gandry
So in short: The useage of macro's in a game have a far greater effect in terms of ruining gameplay. They also ruin gamefun.
I think this is my answer....
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Bunyip
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.01.23 02:55:00 -
[50]
The thing about macroers are they ruin the market, which is perhaps the main thing this game has to link the PvE and PvP lifestyles. If macroers go out of control, mineral prices drop to nearly nothing, and ships are mass produced with no significant cost.
PvP will still be somewhat rare, as implants and clone costs will be thousands of times more expensive than ships now. There are currently more ships being built than there are ships being destroyed, but that nearly matches the new player influx.
If this 'mineralpocalypse' occurs, ships will drop to nearly null value, people will lose thrill of PvP (since it doesn't impact the other player or cause many tears). This is not a chicken little warning, but how things will most likely occur.
I love this game, and want it to continue, thus I'm against macros. That, and the players who use macros have keyloggers and other malware installed with them. While I may despise those guys, I don't like them suffering so somebody else (RMT-wise) gets rich. In that light, all macros (with very few exceptions) are involved in the RMT trade.
TL;DR: Macros ruin the mineral market and are involved in RMT, even if the player using them is not. |
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.23 03:03:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Bunyip The thing about macroers are they ruin the market, which is perhaps the main thing this game has to link the PvE and PvP lifestyles. If macroers go out of control, mineral prices drop to nearly nothing, and ships are mass produced with no significant cost.
The old mineral basket brickwall, insurance, reprocessing and NPC seed problem had nothing to do with macros.
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Henry Haphorn
Gallente Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.01.23 03:37:00 -
[52]
As a professional miner myself, I can relate to those whose profit-making potential in high-sec has been negatively impacted by the encroachment of bots in the Eve Universe. But it's not just miners that have been impacted. Mission runners and ratters have been out-ISKed by bots that collect endless bounties simply because bots can stay up 23/7 without fatigue compared to their human counterparts all while causing ISK inflations in some areas as the ISK is overly injected into the New Eden economy by the endless bounties they collect. Day traders have also seen their margins completely hurt by these buts as they dumb massive quantities of ores into the market, thus hurting the trade margins for the traders.
I have seen plenty ideas thrown around, shared a few of my own, and finally came to the following conclusion.
It is practically impossible for CCP to stop these bots at an individual player level via client changes since RMT-related programmers can quickly adapt to such changes (like hackers) and create new macros based on the changes. Also, any changes by CCP to stop macros can potentially hurt professional miners that legitimately mine for several hours a day.
So what solution could there be to stopping bots? You can't. But, you can use the existing in-game mechanics already in place to make it a living hell for the macros. In fact, the war against bots is left up to the pilots of new Eden as CCP is busy trying to stop RMTs from affecting Eve.
For some people, the best (and so far, the only effective option) to fighting bots is... well... literally fighting them. You get your best ganking ship and pop them without remorse.
But there are two problems with ganking. First, you have to first verify that the mining ship is indeed controlled by a bot. You can't go around popping any miner you see as might be targeting the wrong ship and unnecessarily wasting away a good ganker ship to concord retribution. And second, even if you confirm that the mining ship in question is a bot, it barely leaves a mark on the income generated by them.
So, what are the possible solutions? Well, it took me a while to put it all together, but here it goes.
1. Spread Awareness: Everyone needs to know how to hunt down bots and confirm them by learning how they operate. What are the tell-tale signs of a bot? What are its habits? How does it respond to certain methods of aggression? How long do they operate? What are their schedules? etc. The more players know how to track a bot, the better they get at killing the right targets. This can help put the minds of professional miners at ease knowing that their mining ships won't get ganked by mistake as long as they do certain things that can alert the gankers they are not bots.
2. War of Attrition: Ganking will not have any immediate effect since the users who operate the bots may already have billions (if not trillions) of ISK currently at their disposal so they can buy new mining ships on the fly if they get ganked. But how much can that wallet last if their ships are constantly being ganked or harassed? It's hard to know for sure. But if we get enough people ganking bots hard enough and long enough, we might see an effect in the long run in terms of the bot presence in New Eden. But we can't know for sure until we try it.
It's up to you guys. You can either carebear on your own and ignore the problem that affects your profits, or stand up and deal with the problem head on. |
Brannoncyll
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Posted - 2011.01.23 03:47:00 -
[53]
It cheapens the experience of those who play by the rules. |
Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.23 07:00:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 23/01/2011 07:01:17
Originally by: Brannoncyll It cheapens the experience of those who play by the rules.
Which is exactly why the ideas posted by anti-macro evagalists are so often horrible.
Hurdles to prove you're human cheapen it further, this is why I'm vocal on this topic.
Either the solution is something so creative none of us have come close to it yet, or it is to level the field and embrace people who like this style of play by making mining a stratgic activity where all miners are given "ship programming" tools or something similar.
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Bryg Philomena
Don't Taze Me Bro
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Posted - 2011.01.23 07:14:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dev Jah
Originally by: Bryg Philomena Mining is ****ing boring, and thats the sticky of it.
They make what? 4m an hour? oh no! I cannot possibly compete with 4 ****ing mil an hour. How about I run a mission and make 25-30m an hour.
Ugh... There are bots effectively playing the market making billions each day, there are bots doing missions at the same efficiency you are.
But lets say each bot max out at 4m/hour:
4 x 23,5 = 94m ISK 94 x 30 = 2820m ISK
94m ISK a day, 2820m/2,82b ISK a month.
You make 30m/hour?
30 x X = 2820 X = 2820/30 X = 94 hours
You would need to spend 94 hours (3 days and 22 hours) each month running missions nonstop to be on par with said bot, that is 3 hours and 8 minutes each day. Knock yourself out...
And this is what, probably the least profitable bots out there?
Market bots are boring, they aren't as prolific as you think, although I know of several that exist. The majority of the market bots out there are extremely dumb, and talking to the people using them, they actively work against them being released.
Ratting bots (and to the other guy who quoted me about SCs ratting, well who the **** rats in a sc and if you know they are botting in a sc, just kill the damn thing) are inefficient when someone enters their system. They aren't that touch to screw over, the hardest ones are the tengus with interdiction nullifiers.
Mining bots just plain suck. So what if they can make 2.3b a month or whatever. I make 4-5 with my alt playing a grand total of 15 minutes every two days. And another hour afk autopiloting my goods to market every four days.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of macros but they don't proliferate this game as much as everyone seems to think. And they certainly aren't destroying it as much as everyone seems to think. |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.23 07:36:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 23/01/2011 07:37:27 my short wishlist for eve is
1 Eleimate static roid belts, move the existing roid belts to grav sights, and put minable roid belts in mission space, have better roid belts avalible to higher level missions, and put some real rat respawns in them that go up in dificulty as the rats come back for payback untill the miner has to leave and start over or invest in defence.
2) more randomness within individual missions
2a) a mechanism that boosts the dificulty of follow up missions as you beat them (replace one of the ships with an upgraded ship for example, or spawn an extra wave) and get rid of the heavy handed punishment for failing missions for crying out loud.
3) replace the agents with a bit more of a spread of agents, and ditch the "Quality" nonsence (level 1 would be frigates, level 2 destroyers, level 3 cruisers level 4 bc Level 5 Battleship level 6 small group missions level 7 full group missions level 8 fleet missions, have "empire" and "into lowsec" leave the agents scatterd where they are but if you insist, put "loswec special" missions in empire that lead into lowsec with bigger payouts depending on how often they are used.
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Hsi Shih
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Posted - 2011.01.23 07:49:00 -
[57]
I have been playing off and on since 2004 with mu;multiple accounts and bots have not effected me even in the smallest way.
People who complain about bots are not effected as well or they would not be playing.
Stop complaining about stuff that CCP is already busy in controlling.
Its beyond boring hearing the same topic over and over again for years.
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Merovee
Amarr Gorthaur Legion
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Posted - 2011.01.23 08:08:00 -
[58]
Reduce the quality of the roids in high-sec. Reduce the growth rate of roids in high-sec, Increase trit quality in low-sec.
Increase low-sec to semi-low sec where as 0.5 to 0.7 the roid fields are no longer covered by concord, as long as the aggressor never leaves the fields during the agro timer and if logoffksi the timer is paused till logon and restarts.
nuff said... |
knobber Jobbler
Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.23 10:09:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Winterjack
Originally by: NinjaSpud I promise this isnÆt a troll. I have an honest question and would like a mature, but honest response.
I'll bite.
Quote: ItÆs safe to say (CCP even admits it) that cheating and robbing people out of their hard earned isk and items is as much a part of the game as anything. (letÆs not forget market scams)
That's in-game cheating. Using player skills and smarts and in-game tools to obtain a profit. EVE is about profit.
Quote: Why is it, that the one naughty thing to do, that angers more people than any other topicàis also one of the most passive? Think about itàhas a macroÆer ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?
Break ore market, suck up all the roids so that us poor fellows that login at 5-6pm evetime can forget about being miners, gain an advantage over legitimate players by using a trick that is against the EULA to take the profit out of my hands. When my profit as a miner goes down from 10 millions an hour to barely 2 millions an hour, this is a problem. And this is because they do not work for that money - they're not watching strip miners and move mineral around. They're out working like me, but they're still making money due to a breakage of the EULA. But don't get me wrong, I'm not angry. I just want their use of macro to stop.
Quote: That being said, it is by far the least æaggressiveÆ form of cheating someone out ofàanything. The way I see it, macroÆer cheat CCP more than individual players, they exploit an in game design.
You said it yourself, you're new here. EVE is about profit. The killboards don't just show amount of ships destroyed, it's ISK value that matters. EVE is economy driven from head to toe. When you deprive me of my hard-earned isk, you are effectively aggressing me. If you do it in a legitimate way (harassing, outmining, merc hunting, market wars...) I can retaliate and this is a war in pure eve-style.
If you do it by mining 23.5/7, the only way I have to counter is use a bot myself. Which, besides being stupid (as you don't know what the bot really does besides sending commands to eve), is against the EULA. Thus, I have no option to retaliate and I succumb. Or go do something else, as most of my friends who used to mine have done so far... including myself.
And don't be mistaken, macroers flourish in nullsec as well, since most nullsec systems are heavily defended and you can be cozy and safe most of the times. Hell, you can be pretty safe even in losec, if you do it right.
well said.
ccp must realise this but why don't they tackle it?
they either can't, won't or are working on something.
either way the slow or lack of reaction is poor customer service. |
Othran
Ad Infernum
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Posted - 2011.01.23 10:20:00 -
[60]
This thread is pointless.
CCP DO NOT CARE ABOUT BOTTING unless :
a) RMT is involved; b) It is causing serious lag to server (like spamming scan).
I'm sure someone will come along acting as CCPs apologist but the empirical facts show that CCP DOES NOT CARE.
Knock yourself out petitioning - nobody will get a ban unless a) or b) is true. Even the people who freely admit botting don't get banned. |
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laksmi2
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Posted - 2011.01.23 10:26:00 -
[61]
Edited by: laksmi2 on 23/01/2011 10:32:22 if u realise that a full 1/3 of online accounts at any given time is a macro u know where ccps interest lies.
hsi shi u are full of crap or ignorant or a troll. grats. |
Alica Wildfire
Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2011.01.23 12:01:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 23/01/2011 12:04:52 I don't care if people are macro mining in hisec or not. I don't care if people fly afk or not. It's just both a stupid way to play EVE. And usually my way to play EVE is to make profit from the stupid.
So what would Hulkageddeon be without the stupid? Less fun. What would be the big Jita highway without people moving billions afk? Less fun.
Macroing is against the EULA. Let them suffer for either that or for their lack of imagination and waste our server capacity. This is what I say. I don't care about them. I just see easy targets and targets that deserved to be destroyed.
You know what happend to a neutral pod in Auga? Militia reported a neutral pod in Auga, 230 km off third station. I answered that this pod has to be destroyed. Many said: but we are Minmatar Militia, we don't shoot on neutrals. I said: there is no neutral pod. Either it's a spy or it's someone so stupid hanging around in a pod in lowsec afk.
Both have to suffer.
When I was entering my ship to fly out and do it myself, a corpmate of mine contacted me: Alica! Alica! Do you see my secstatus?! I got him! I got him! I was first!
Mission accomplished.
Macrominers have to die. Send the stupid back to WoW. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives Beer and Smoke Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.23 16:07:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Alica Wildfire You know what happend to a neutral pod in Auga? Militia reported a neutral pod in Auga, 230 km off third station. I answered that this pod has to be destroyed. Many said: but we are Minmatar Militia, we don't shoot on neutrals. I said: there is no neutral pod. Either it's a spy or it's someone so stupid hanging around in a pod in lowsec afk.
Yeah, they could still be an actual neutral FFS. |
Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.23 16:17:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Alica Wildfire
You know what happend to a neutral pod in Auga? Militia reported a neutral pod in Auga, 230 km off third station. I answered that this pod has to be destroyed. Many said: but we are Minmatar Militia, we don't shoot on neutrals. I said: there is no neutral pod. Either it's a spy or it's someone so stupid hanging around in a pod in lowsec afk.
Nice NRDS there. |
Alica Wildfire
Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2011.01.23 16:32:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 23/01/2011 16:33:06 Who said we are NRDS? Nobody. We usually don't kill neutrals. But if they begin to camp in a pod one of our main stations they simply ask for being shot. If you move on, militia will not bugger you.
Simple like that.
Well. Most of militia. |
Norjia Blacksteel
Gallente Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.23 17:00:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale if you want to play the game, you should play the game.
This
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Zephris
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Posted - 2011.01.23 17:42:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale if you want to play the game, you should play the game.
I am sure sitting there watching a rock spin is a form of playing |
KaarBaak
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.23 18:50:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Othran
CCP DO NOT CARE ABOUT BOTTING unless :
a) RMT is involved; b) It is causing serious lag to server (like spamming scan).
...and those that think H'geddon is about killing bots? Just a possible/accidental bonus.
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Elanor Vega
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Posted - 2011.01.23 20:41:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale if you want to play the game, you should play the game.
+1
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.24 05:54:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Hsi Shih I have been playing off and on since 2004 with mu;multiple accounts and bots have not effected me even in the smallest way.
People who complain about bots are not effected as well or they would not be playing.
Stop complaining about stuff that CCP is already busy in controlling.
Its beyond boring hearing the same topic over and over again for years.
Originally by: Bryg Philomena
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of macros but they don't proliferate this game as much as everyone seems to think. And they certainly aren't destroying it as much as everyone seems to think.
This is kinda along the idea of why I started this thread.
I said it earlier, but I'll say it again. I don't really care about macros....but if they are truly affecting the gameplay, then they have to be delt with.
Is there any proof we can look at that they have a had a legit negative impact? Obviously there is a massive socail impact, people get very fired up about this....but are they really hurting us?
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Rat Mcgee
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Posted - 2011.01.25 14:48:00 -
[71]
Macro miners destroy the economy for real miners. ICE used to be about 125k now its 75k because macro miners sell thier ICE for any price.
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Xe'Cara'eos
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Posted - 2011.01.27 11:51:00 -
[72]
Quote: I promise this isnÆt a troll. I have an honest question and would like a mature, but honest response. Cool I'm relatively new here, but I have spent a good deal of time (when I'm not playing eve) scanning the forums trying to get to know the populous and general demeanor of these so called ôcapsule pilotsö. From an æobservesÆ point of view, I would like to pose a much debated question. HereÆs my question: Why do people hate macro miners? Let me explain my point of viewà You can tell a lot about a game, about how the people who respond to it when they are angry. For example, in the crime and punishment section I found many, many posts expressing anger towards ore thieves. The victim feels robbed, posts angrily about itàand moves on with is eve life. Lets look at pirats. I read another post where a smaller alliance was moving billions of isk worth of station equipment to a null sec system they had recently rented from a larger allianceàduring transport they got caught in a gate camp. The event lost them so much the entire corporation disbanded. The victims were angry, posted their griefà.and moved on with their eve lives. ItÆs safe to say (CCP even admits it) that cheating and robbing people out of their hard earned isk and items is as much a part of the game as anything. (letÆs not forget market scams) àbasically you can do pretty much anything you want in eve. And even if you step on someoneÆs toes, angry posts are sent out, griefers are labeled and players move on. So to reiterate my question: out of all the dirty things and bad behavior that is in eve. Why is it, that the one naughty thing to do, that angers more people than any other topicàis also one of the most passive? Think about itàhas a macroÆer ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so? Before I continue, I do want to point out that it is against the EULA to use macros, so we all know CCPÆs stance on it. LetÆs face it, it is cheatingàIÆll agree there. And the ones who use macro profit to RMT have been justly banned, I could see how that profit is infringing on CCPÆs domain, they had every right and reason to ban RMTÆs, and IÆm gladàthe last thing we need is to see 500 spam bots in local. (Diablo II is damn near unplayable now cause of RMT and spam bots) That being said, it is by far the least æaggressiveÆ form of cheating someone out ofàanything. The way I see it, macroÆer cheat CCP more than individual players, they exploit an in game design. I have a few theories and I had to ask myself, what are the effects of macro mining? LetÆs start with the obvious:
OK - why do people not mind/maybe even admire in game scamming/ganking/ninja salvaging characters? Because they do it using their brains, they can be outwitted if you work at it/do your h/w before you let that guy into your corp, also - they're probably real people with an eve face, and an eve voice... Macro miners, on the other hand, steal my 'roids, which in itself is fine, but they do it without even being there on the computer, they're typically set up to get the ore type which gives most ISK/m3, and quickly deplete my home system of all the best ore types at the time, so by the time I get on at around 7-8 pm EVE time, all the big isk is gone from mining, these guys can't be outwitted, because they're doing a simple task, and are using a program to do it for them, the closest thing we've got is hulkaggeddon, which unfortunately catches others in it's net. They're doing nothing wrong in game, so can't be fixed in game, but are screwing me over by doing wrong out of game, so they're safe from my fiery, ingame wrath. Oh, and they don't talk, don't abandon wrecks for newbs, wasting them, and thus driving the ORE market down, depleting my income, and the salv market up, increasing my expenditure... That is why I, personally hate bots.
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Quemist
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Posted - 2011.01.27 12:01:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Quemist on 27/01/2011 12:01:07 CCP put in the EULA that it's only illegal if it allows your account to earn more than a human would.
So if the macro logs off for 5 hours a day it's not illegal technically.
This is how every macro user has justified it to me and I have known ALOT of macro users in my day.
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Crucis Cassiopeiae
Amarr PORSCHE AG
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Posted - 2011.01.27 12:14:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 27/01/2011 12:15:56
Originally by: Quemist Edited by: Quemist on 27/01/2011 12:01:07 CCP put in the EULA that it's only illegal if it allows your account to earn more than a human would.
So if the macro logs off for 5 hours a day it's not illegal technically.
This is how every macro user has justified it to me and I have known ALOT of macro users in my day.
so... all EVE players get macros and use it only for 5 hours a day per account... and problem solved... NICE... ... but sad... "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" |
Quemist
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Posted - 2011.01.27 12:30:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 27/01/2011 12:15:56
Originally by: Quemist Edited by: Quemist on 27/01/2011 12:01:07 CCP put in the EULA that it's only illegal if it allows your account to earn more than a human would.
So if the macro logs off for 5 hours a day it's not illegal technically.
This is how every macro user has justified it to me and I have known ALOT of macro users in my day.
so... all EVE players get macros and use it only for 5 hours a day per account... and problem solved... NICE... ... but sad...
Yeah it really takes away from the game. CCP obviously added that stipulation for a reason though. So, CCP = pro botting.
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Optimus Night
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Posted - 2011.01.27 12:38:00 -
[76]
Kill the macros! Kill them all!
They have no right to live in eve!
Wherever you see some macro - report it! Attack it. Blame it in the forums!
Do we have a: "is this a macro?" thread? We could name them all. They can defend if there is any life in them. Otherwise they will be hunted!
Kill dem! Kill dem macros!
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Zuper Zpy
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Posted - 2011.01.27 12:56:00 -
[77]
As I suspected. Directly after reading this post I checked the net for ISK for sale. Then dared ask in forum whether these sites were legitimate. Within a minute the thread was replied to in the negative and locked. Macroers are harming gamers by taking the real dollars from our game developers. CCP need to come up with a system where you can give miners a warning that unless they leave the system within 1 hour you are entitled to kill them. If they leave and return then the count down clock stops. In this way anyone who is using a bot becomes fair game.
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W1rlW1nd
WirlWind
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:09:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Zuper Zpy ... CCP need to come up with a system where you can give miners a warning that unless they leave the system within 1 hour you are entitled to kill them. If they leave and return then the count down clock stops. In this way anyone who is using a bot becomes fair game.
...and a bot couldn't leave and then come back in one hour when it's safe? they already can do that for crying out loud.
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yani dumyat
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:09:00 -
[79]
Originally by: NinjaSpud Think about itàhas a macroÆer ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?
Players funded by macro are near impossible to fight on an equal footing, the shape of null sec empires is pretty much defined by the number of SC's the bots can produce. The primary affect of this is that smaller alliances are valueless to the power blocks, a player corp is useless in isk generating terms compared to a bot corp.
So to answer your question macroers have not just ganked peoples ships but are so good at it that small to medium alliances are degraded to the point of being pets, if being pushed around so your master can keep his bot farms running isn't an insult then I don't know what is.
Further down the food chain even larger numbers of people are affected, bots are rampant right through the manufacturing and trade sectors, just try setting a ferrogel order in Jita if you don't believe me. This pushes people away from all forms of industry, not just mining.
Then there's printing money, ratting bots are a huge isk faucet which in a free market economy is the same as printing money, look up Weimar Germany or modern day Zimbabwe if you don't know why this is bad.
In eve aggression always comes down to isk, as such macros are probably the single most aggressive thing in the game.
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Zuper Zpy
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:20:00 -
[80]
Originally by: yani dumyat
Originally by: NinjaSpud Think about itàhas a macroÆer ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?
Players funded by macro are near impossible to fight on an equal footing, the shape of null sec empires is pretty much defined by the number of SC's the bots can produce. The primary affect of this is that smaller alliances are valueless to the power blocks, a player corp is useless in isk generating terms compared to a bot corp.
So to answer your question macroers have not just ganked peoples ships but are so good at it that small to medium alliances are degraded to the point of being pets, if being pushed around so your master can keep his bot farms running isn't an insult then I don't know what is.
Further down the food chain even larger numbers of people are affected, bots are rampant right through the manufacturing and trade sectors, just try setting a ferrogel order in Jita if you don't believe me. This pushes people away from all forms of industry, not just mining.
Then there's printing money, ratting bots are a huge isk faucet which in a free market economy is the same as printing money, look up Weimar Germany or modern day Zimbabwe if you don't know why this is bad.
In eve aggression always comes down to isk, as such macros are probably the single most aggressive thing in the game.
Then basically what you are saying is that eve is controlled by a very few. Do you think that they would be the ones selling ISK on the internet? I would have thought that CCP could tell who was doing all the dealing just by its game logs which should then make them look closer at the activities of those characters in particular. Unless of course it was...........I'm not even going to dare to say it.
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Optimus Night
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:21:00 -
[81]
First step could be to change NPC corp membership. Most macros hide in them. You should be able to be only 30 days(or so..) a year in a npc corp.
This would give the power to capsulers to solve a big part of this problem by themselves.
Macro bots become a bigger issue. If CCP doesnt do anything really usefull to solve this problem players will get frustrated.
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ROFLCOPTER SOISOISOI
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:24:00 -
[82]
Originally by: rock crawlermne
c.Keep in mind, most people would agree that the majority of macroÆers are in high sec. is it possible to assume that as the price of high sec minerals drop, the price of Null sec minerals increase as more ships are being built, thus more null sec mins are being purchased? Real Null-sec miners make more money?
No, basically what happens (in theory) is the price of null sec minerals goes up beyond a certain point and all the Meta 1 - 3 junk (bye bye 425mm Compressed Coil Guns) that gets spat out of mission rats is reprocessed. If the price spikes high enough then more common Meta 4 gets thrown in the re-processor as well.
Everyone with sufficient stock gets rich, those with good refine skills get richer. Prices go back down.
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:29:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Macro miners buy PLEX with isk, thus pushing the isk price of a PLEX up. Because of macro miners, the hours I have to mine in order to buy a PLEX increases.
Most of the PLEX price increases I've seen are around the times of CCP going "Hey, we just kicked x macro's out the game".
Frankly, the bots PLEXing drove demand up and the price per unit down.
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yani dumyat
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:39:00 -
[84]
Edited by: yani dumyat on 27/01/2011 13:43:41
Originally by: Zuper Zpy
Then basically what you are saying is that eve is controlled by a very few. Do you think that they would be the ones selling ISK on the internet? I would have thought that CCP could tell who was doing all the dealing just by its game logs which should then make them look closer at the activities of those characters in particular. Unless of course it was...........I'm not even going to dare to say it.
Yes the biggest null empires are controlled by a fairly small number of people. CCP do their best to stamp out RMT but have a blind eye policy towards bots who are building titans rather than selling ISK for real money.
The worst punishment a botter can expect from CCP is a slap on the wrist and a 3 day ban. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.
Edit - Bot programmes are also used for farming people's account details and stealing ISK from the little man, if anyone's read the previous paragraph and decided to find themselves a bot for some income, remember that you're dealing with some nasty characters who won't think twice about ripping off your credit card or clearing out your eve account.
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ROFLCOPTER SOISOISOI
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:19:00 -
[85]
Originally by: yani dumyat
Edit - Bot programmes are also used for farming people's account details and stealing ISK from the little man, if anyone's read the previous paragraph and decided to find themselves a bot for some income, remember that you're dealing with some nasty characters who won't think twice about ripping off your credit card or clearing out your eve account.
Ya see that's what everyone keeps saying. ISK for cash and bot sellers will steal your account details. Now, I'm sure some shady character would do that. On the other hand if you do that you don't get repeat custom and it's a bit of a faff rebranding yourself every month or so to dodge the impact.
Both of the bot's I've investigated actually had "I'm farking paranoid" modes where you told the software you'd log in manually. There was no way it could steal details; I also sat poking at them with a packet sniffer... they didn't transmit anything.
So whilst there are shady characters out there and I've no doubt some of the account stealers hide as bots... I suspect the majority of vendors are legit; well as legit as such things can be.
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:28:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Optimus Night First step could be to change NPC corp membership. Most macros hide in them. You should be able to be only 30 days(or so..) a year in a npc corp.
This would give the power to capsulers to solve a big part of this problem by themselves.
Macro bots become a bigger issue. If CCP doesnt do anything really usefull to solve this problem players will get frustrated.
Macro's only use npc corps because its convenient. If it becomes more convenient to bounce in and out of 1 man band player corps they'll do so.
Remember: Bots aren't themselves intelligent, but they can read the screen and react to what they 'see'. Like your hypothetical war deccing.
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Liorah
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:50:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil If a bot is considered needed in a specific game, the real issue is probably game design or player mentality. The solution is not to use a bot but to change the game to make it playable by humans.
Agreed: If one can easily bot your game, your game is broken.
I would take it one step further to say that not only do you re-visit existing mechanics (which, honestly, we know will never happen), but you also refrain from introducing new content that is so tedious and repetitive that it just screams "Bot Me Baybee!"
Just because the goal of this game is to be a "simulation", doesn't mean you need to make it any less fun.
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Cailais
Amarr Ukomi Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:52:00 -
[88]
Personally I want to play eve with, and against, other players - not automated bots. That's why I object to there use.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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Liorah
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:58:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Zuper Zpy I would have thought that CCP could tell who was doing all the dealing just by its game logs
"The logs show nothing. Working as intended."
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Zuper Zpy
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Posted - 2011.01.27 15:25:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Liorah
Originally by: Zuper Zpy I would have thought that CCP could tell who was doing all the dealing just by its game logs
"The logs show nothing. Working as intended."
With all the hardware, software and programmers, they could find out anything they wanted. Let's face it, the whole system is of their creation. What I think it boils down to is that so much money passes through their hands with account fees, the amount stolen by ISK dealers is only a tiny percentage at this point in time Much the same way stores lose a small percentage to theft, it is factored back into the price of the goods to cover it.
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Chip Dealer
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Posted - 2011.01.27 15:47:00 -
[91]
I think the underlying premise here is that there is hypocrisy at play in CCP's policy to bot mining (macro mining). I agree with the premise. It is certainly true that Eve tolerates lying, theft, extortion and bullying. In fact the game even encourages these things. So why the worry over bots? Because it seems unfair? Hardly a credible reason in the context of the game. He who laughs last, laughs alone.
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Thlarr
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Posted - 2011.01.27 16:27:00 -
[92]
I don't hate people who macro, I despise them. The reasons are many, my drunken mind can figure out these right now:¿
1. They take isk away from people that actually play the game.
2. They gain an unfair advantage compared to people who don't use macroes/bot the game.
3. I actually figured a way of actually getting a character out of game that just happened to annoy someone so much that he was worth taking out using real money. (i'm sure many others have as well) When petitioned the response was basically "we know what we are doing, but you can always petition". So around a few weeks of total pain to someone who didn't actually do anything to break the EULA. Only the griefing party and CCP doing the actual breaking.
I'm going to go drink more, so if anyone wants a response, it will have to wait for a bit.
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PhoenixofMT
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Posted - 2011.01.30 07:33:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Chip Dealer I think the underlying premise here is that there is hypocrisy at play in CCP's policy to bot mining (macro mining). I agree with the premise. It is certainly true that Eve tolerates lying, theft, extortion and bullying. In fact the game even encourages these things. So why the worry over bots? Because it seems unfair? Hardly a credible reason in the context of the game.
The difference is that the encouraged "lying, theft, extortion and bullying" are exercised through game mechanics. Everyone has the same ability, within the game, to lie, steal, extort and bully. Getting a program to push the button for you is not using a game mechanism. It doesn't seem unfair, it is unfair. It's cheating to gain an unfair advantage over other players in the context of the game. Not everyone has ready access to a bot to make money for them, and I shouldn't have to pay XYZ company $40 for a bot so I can play CCP's game, for which I already pay a monthly subscription.
Would you continue to loose at chess over and over again to an opponent who uses a computer to calculate his moves? I might, if I had my own computer to pit against his. It levels the field and makes it a competition of who can make the better chess program. But that is outside the scope of the original game.
If CCP were to add a mechanism that allowed everyone to mine AFK for hours on end then no one would have an unfair advantage. In a way, it would make sense to do this since they probably don't care if you want to pay them to let you computer play their game. But then you might as well get rid of mining altogether and have the NPCs spit out ore from their magical stock.
Another way to put it is that the game developers have put a lot of time and effort into making the game equally unfair for everyone. God-miners who come in with outside power have a more unfair advantage than everyone else.
Durin Stormbow made a good point back on the first page. You can't "win" an MMO in the normal sense. Winning is a lot like life, an ongoing process of making yourself better using the same tools as everyone else. Having a super-race come along and do the same things you do but cheaper with better tools you don't have access to takes the fun out of it and eventually pushes the normal miners to extinction, or at best, pitiful subsistence.
Phoenix
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2011.01.30 07:43:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 30/01/2011 07:45:43
Originally by: PhoenixofMT
Originally by: Chip Dealer I think the underlying premise here is that there is hypocrisy at play in CCP's policy to bot mining (macro mining). I agree with the premise. It is certainly true that Eve tolerates lying, theft, extortion and bullying. In fact the game even encourages these things. So why the worry over bots? Because it seems unfair? Hardly a credible reason in the context of the game.
The difference is that the encouraged "lying, theft, extortion and bullying" are exercised through game mechanics. Everyone has the same ability, within the game, to lie, steal, extort and bully. Getting a program to push the button for you is not using a game mechanism. It doesn't seem unfair, it is unfair. It's cheating to gain an unfair advantage over other players in the context of the game. Not everyone has ready access to a bot to make money for them, and I shouldn't have to pay XYZ company $40 for a bot so I can play CCP's game, for which I already pay a monthly subscription.
Would you continue to loose at chess over and over again to an opponent who uses a computer to calculate his moves? I might, if I had my own computer to pit against his. It levels the field and makes it a competition of who can make the better chess program. But that is outside the scope of the original game.
If CCP were to add a mechanism that allowed everyone to mine AFK for hours on end then no one would have an unfair advantage. In a way, it would make sense to do this since they probably don't care if you want to pay them to let you computer play their game. But then you might as well get rid of mining altogether and have the NPCs spit out ore from their magical stock.
Another way to put it is that the game developers have put a lot of time and effort into making the game equally unfair for everyone. God-miners who come in with outside power have a more unfair advantage than everyone else.
Durin Stormbow made a good point back on the first page. You can't "win" an MMO in the normal sense. Winning is a lot like life, an ongoing process of making yourself better using the same tools as everyone else. Having a super-race come along and do the same things you do but cheaper with better tools you don't have access to takes the fun out of it and eventually pushes the normal miners to extinction, or at best, pitiful subsistence.
Phoenix
As strange as it seems, quite a lot of people enjoy mining in game. They like planning, running and participating in mining ops. They like their hulks, like pimping them out, like orca's.
Its not my cup of tea but removing mining as a pastime would not be appreciated by a lot of these people.
Edit: I know this because all I do in game is infiltrate industrial corporations with spies and declare war. They enjoy the social aspects, getting max yeields and all those nerdy things. I don't despise them for it, they like different things then I do, fact I'd rather hang out socially with miners then endure a minute with the average pvp'r (although there are exceptions).
--------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
Jojo Jackson
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Posted - 2011.01.30 09:36:00 -
[95]
People pay real money to ACTIV play this game. Your bots lower the income of this ACTIV playing custumers. As they notice, you let do the same they do but use bots for it they become angry as they invest REAL TIME.
All over the forum you see threads how great PvP is ... but you NEVER see threads, how many bots this guys run to not spent time with actual earning ISK. And don't try to tell us, you earn ISK with PvP as we all know most of you guys don't even loot the wrecks from the player you killed (espezialy toilet-sec PvP is rarely looted).
This to say boting is just lame and MUST be banned (CCP is far to slow with punishing botting) as you destroy the fun of ACTIV playing custumers!
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