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Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
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Posted - 2011.01.24 18:01:00 -
[91]
If you are going to propose an idea like this, at least have the guts to post with your main so we can see if you have a clue what you are talking about.
Of course I suspect the reason you didn't is because you're afraid (rightly) that we'd change the argument to be about how fail you are as a PVPer based on your Killboard history.
This is the general trend I've seen on all these "Kill the Killboard" threads. The vast majority of people supporting have little or no record of PVP activity (generally because they post with alts) or outright suck.
I'm an total killmail ***** the only change I'd like to see to the killmail system would be for CCP to build it into the game so people couldn't hide their losses or pad their boards with fake killmails.
Killmails are the only record we have of a PVP interactions in the game. They are the only indicator of competency and level of risk aversion.
Oh and if you think that removal of Killmails would do anything to reduce the amount of blobbing and ganking; you are living in a fantasy land.
People "blob" because there are consequences to loss far in excess of a stat on your killboard. You have to spend time or money to replace a ship you lost. that's why people are risk adverse and blob.
Or in the case of Null you could lose SOV which means a loss of resources far in excess of the ships risked in the engagement.
No one thinks poorly of someone who lost a ship to a superior force on their killboard. We might think poorly of them if their fit was particularly heinous but most the people I know who PVP understand that you are going to lose ships.
Sure it's not perfect and it doesn't give one every bit of information about a pilot it doesn't tell us who the good logistics pilots are nor the good scouts, then again it doesn't tell us who the good station traders are or scammers or spais.
It's not supposed to. it gives us data on one aspect of a pilots career.
It provides information on a pilots PVP prowess when it comes to direct ship to ship engagement.
Do some people misuse them? Yeah but the same can be said of jumper cables doesn't mean that it would be a good idea to outlaw them.
Oh in case it wasn't clear from my comments
NOT SUPPORTED
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Anubis Xian
Iron Warriors of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.24 18:36:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Skex Relbore If you are going to propose an idea like this, at least have the guts to post with your main so we can see if you have a clue what you are talking about.
And prove me right? Absolutely.
Quote: Of course I suspect the reason you didn't is because you're afraid (rightly) that we'd change the argument to be about how fail you are as a PVPer based on your Killboard history.
I'm not afraid of anything, and MY killboard record shows that. But that doesn't mean I like total strangers knowing 'everything' about me before I ever see them ingame. It takes all the surprise out of pvp, which incidentally is what makes pvp fun.
Quote: This is the general trend I've seen on all these "Kill the Killboard" threads. The vast majority of people supporting have little or no record of PVP activity (generally because they post with alts) or outright suck.
You can think what you want, the OP is what it is.
Quote: I'm an total killmail ***** the only change I'd like to see to the killmail system would be for CCP to build it into the game so people couldn't hide their losses or pad their boards with fake killmails.
That would kill the pvp side of the game completely. Finding a good fight would be impossible. Right now, it is just very difficult.
Quote: Killmails are the only record we have of a PVP interactions in the game. They are the only indicator of competency and level of risk aversion.
No they aren't. I'd rather people remember my name after I kill them. If they don't, then it wasn't an impressive feat.
Quote: Oh and if you think that removal of Killmails would do anything to reduce the amount of blobbing and ganking; you are living in a fantasy land.
I'll reverse that and say you are living in a fantasy land if you DON'T think it will. Or more precisely the frequency of blobbing and hotdropping.
Quote: People "blob" because there are consequences to loss far in excess of a stat on your killboard. You have to spend time or money to replace a ship you lost. that's why people are risk adverse and blob.
Cowards die in shame.
Quote: Or in the case of Null you could lose SOV which means a loss of resources far in excess of the ships risked in the engagement.
We aren't discussing the 'other' reasons people blob. Just killmails.
Quote: No one thinks poorly of someone who lost a ship to a superior force on their killboard. We might think poorly of them if their fit was particularly heinous but most the people I know who PVP understand that you are going to lose ships.
Oh I dunno, most people seem to think I'm bad at pvp, because I lost a geddon in a 6 v 1 after being permajammed while having two ECCM IIs fitted. Or when the pirates of MH blobbed to take out a Dark Rising gate camp... a notorious hotdrop corp, but they didn't end up hotdropping. People look at the km and think whatever they want, but they never know the context of the fight itself or what actually happened to get that result.
Quote: Sure it's not perfect and it doesn't give one every bit of information about a pilot it doesn't tell us who the good logistics pilots are nor the good scouts, then again it doesn't tell us who the good station traders are or scammers or spais.
Killmails only promote bad pvp. Period. The side benefits of having them are pathetic compared to the problems associated with them.
Quote: It provides information on a pilots PVP prowess when it comes to direct ship to ship engagement.
Not at all, killboards don't tell you the most vital information to make a judgment about prowess.
Quote: Do some people misuse them? Yeah but the same can be said of jumper cables doesn't mean that it would be a good idea to outlaw them.
Naturally. But if killmails are so good, why can they be 'misused' at all?
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.24 19:08:00 -
[93]
Sometimes I hate some behaviors that are encouraged by killmails, but the killmail itself is always interesting to read and keep track of.
I believe this score keeping is an essential part of this game, a PvP game. Without these records, things would just get more boring.
Killmails are like cake. Cake can make people fat and unhealthy. But it's not the right thing to ban cakes from being made.
Also, more seriously, the PvP tactics used in combat are not influenced by the killmail records. Killmail records only influence people's attitudes, politics, smack talk, but they have no impact whatsoever on what actually works and what doesn't in combat.
If blobbing works, it will be used. If jamming works, it will be used. If hotdropping works, it will be used.
To address those problems, we need to change actual game logic.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.24 19:15:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Anubis Xian We aren't discussing the 'other' reasons people blob. Just killmails.
But as I mentioned killmails at least put a check on blobbing. You can see if someone never got a kill without 50 other people on the kill as well. It also shows if you took down a large ship with a single smaller ship - and how that larger ship was fit.
Without killmails the *only* consequence of pvp is isk. If that becomes the *only* consequence there will surely be *more* blobbing. The only people who want this are those who never pvp or only pvp in blobs. Killmails prove that is what they do, and they donÆt like it.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.24 19:17:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Anubis Xian We aren't discussing the 'other' reasons people blob. Just killmails.
But as I mentioned killmails at least put a check on blobbing. You can see if someone never got a kill without 50 other people on the kill as well. It also shows if you took down a large ship with a single smaller ship - and how that larger ship was fit.
Without killmails the *only* consequence of pvp is isk. If that becomes the *only* consequence there will surely be *more* blobbing. The only people who want this are those who never pvp or only pvp in blobs. Killmails prove that is what they do, and they donÆt like it.
Well there are other ways to fix that. Like Battle Reports, which have none of the downsides of killmails.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
heyItradestuff
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Posted - 2011.01.24 19:22:00 -
[96]
the only km's are worth looking at are the big fleet reports of lots of people vs lots of other people. you don't know how that 1v1 or 2v1 happened. one of the people might have been afk or somthing.
too be honest i don't care about how many kills or deaths i have, as long as i make more money then i lose it doesnt matter because in eve Plex + money for ships= Fun
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
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Posted - 2011.01.24 19:43:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Anubis Xian <Whole bunch of nonsense>
This is the best you come up with?
You are exactly the type I was talking about fail PVPer crying and blaming your suckage on killboards.
29 kills and 30 losses over what a 3 year period? That's 1-2 fights a month and you want to try pretend you have some idea of what motivates PVPers?
You claim to not be motivated by killmails yet it didn't stop you and 6 of your pals from ganking those 3 Provacatuers on the 22nd. Or where those kills simply motivated by a hunger for killmails?
Were you looking for a good fight when you popped that guys Rifter with your Battlecruiser on the 13th?
Believe me there isn't anything in your kill history worth noting and the only thing I'd be concerned about engaging you is whether you have a gang of buddies in reserve to shift the odds in your favor.
Full reporting wouldn't change a damned thing in regards to finding a good fight. Just like the removal of killboards wouldn't. It's hard to find "goodfights" because PVP in EVE has consequences.
You want "goodfights" join RVB they have lots of them. Outside of that though people are going to do their damndest to maximize the damage they cause you and minimize the damage you cause them.
If you want even odds consequence free PVP EVE is not the game for you. People here play for keeps.
Nothing you fly is that special no fit you come up with is going to be that amazing that you need to worry about it becoming FOTM. In general unless you are fighting on a relatively stable front or war deccing industrialists in high sec you aren't going to have time to research individuals killboard history sufficiently to change the outcome of a fight.
Most fights in this game are kills of opportunity. and if you take the time to research somoene's killboard prior to every engagement you are going to miss out on your opportunity to kill them or they're going to kill you while you're reading their KB.
As far as people remembering your name, It ain't going to happen. You are just one more anonymous dude out of the thousands of anonymous dudes playing the game. And the odds of you or anyone for that matter doing anything impressive enough to gain sufficient notoriety to be remembered as just some random dude someone shot at is remote to the point of vanishing.
Hell I'm an admitted Killboard ***** and I couldn't name off more than handful of the top 20 on battleclinic; in fact for the most part the ones I remember are the ones I've fought in the past. And the only change I'd make in knowing them is that I'm not going to hang out anywhere Lukka likes to haunt alone in a lightly tanked ship.
And if I land a point on him I'm gonna do my damndest to kill him then toss a GF in local when he kills me.
The really ironic thing about killboards that I've found though is the less you care about your losses the better your killboard tends to look.
Because what gets you killed more than anything else in the game is indecision. If you are busy fretting about what your killboard is going to look like you are going to hesitate and the other guy is going to get free damage on you.
The only thing you should be thinking about is can you take em if not you escape if not how can you cause them the most damage before you die.
The kill/loss mails are to look at afterwards to evaluate the engagement to learn what can be learned and marked up on your score card.
Really the idea of taking the ability to keep score out of this type of PVP is asinine. Combat pilots have been keeping score since the WWI guys started putting tick marks on their Bi-planes.
If the killmail system hadn't existed we'd have had to made one up and then we'd be stuck with nothing but non api verified crap.
Oh and thanks for reinforcing my point about the types of people who whine about killboards.
STILL NOT SUPPORTED
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.24 20:15:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Skex Relbore 29 kills and 30 losses over what a 3 year period? That's 1-2 fights a month and you want to try pretend you have some idea of what motivates PVPers?
No, all of that is from when I came back after the new killmail system was added. I never posted kills or losses before that on any character.
Quote: You claim to not be motivated by killmails yet it didn't stop you and 6 of your pals from ganking those 3 Provacatuers on the 22nd. Or where those kills simply motivated by a hunger for killmails?
I don't even remember.
Quote: Believe me there isn't anything in your kill history worth noting and the only thing I'd be concerned about engaging you is whether you have a gang of buddies in reserve to shift the odds in your favor.
As my killboard clearly shows, that never happens.
Quote: You want "goodfights" join RVB they have lots of them. Outside of that though people are going to do their damndest to maximize the damage they cause you and minimize the damage you cause them.
I thought about joining that honestly.
Quote: If you want even odds consequence free PVP EVE is not the game for you. People here play for keeps.
Never claimed to want anything like that.
Quote: Nothing you fly is that special no fit you come up with is going to be that amazing that you need to worry about it becoming FOTM. In general unless you are fighting on a relatively stable front or war deccing industrialists in high sec you aren't going to have time to research individuals killboard history sufficiently to change the outcome of a fight.
You never try experimental fits?
Quote: As far as people remembering your name, It ain't going to happen. You are just one more anonymous dude out of the thousands of anonymous dudes playing the game. And the odds of you or anyone for that matter doing anything impressive enough to gain sufficient notoriety to be remembered as just some random dude someone shot at is remote to the point of vanishing.
Then I haven't killed enough people.
Quote: Hell I'm an admitted Killboard ***** and I couldn't name off more than handful of the top 20 on battleclinic; in fact for the most part the ones I remember are the ones I've fought in the past. And the only change I'd make in knowing them is that I'm not going to hang out anywhere Lukka likes to haunt alone in a lightly tanked ship.
Nobody knows your name like you know Lukka's?
Quote: And if I land a point on him I'm gonna do my damndest to kill him then toss a GF in local when he kills me.
Why would you do anything less?
Quote: The really ironic thing about killboards that I've found though is the less you care about your losses the better your killboard tends to look.
That must not be true if you concluded I'm a fail pvper and am crying... or whatever you said about me based entirely on my killboard.
Quote: Because what gets you killed more than anything else in the game is indecision. If you are busy fretting about what your killboard is going to look like you are going to hesitate and the other guy is going to get free damage on you.
I never hesitate to act, sometimes I make the wrong choice, but I dive right in regardless.
Quote: The kill/loss mails are to look at afterwards to evaluate the engagement to learn what can be learned and marked up on your score card.
I do that during the fight. Killmails tell me absolutely nothing new.
Quote: Really the idea of taking the ability to keep score out of this type of PVP is asinine. Combat pilots have been keeping score since the WWI guys started putting tick marks on their Bi-planes.
Then keep score, you don't need killmails to do that.
Quote: Oh and thanks for reinforcing my point about the types of people who whine about killboards.
You reinforced mine more than I reinforced yours.
GF, now GTFO.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
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Posted - 2011.01.24 20:51:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Val'Dore <oh look more excuses "my dog ate my killboard">
The kill on the 22nd was 2 days ago it's right there on BC you and 6 others ganked 2 command ships and a Drake. It's your most recent PVP activity and you don't remember?
On having backup. Killboards can't show that "it never happens" All we see if the fact that you engaged 3 ships with a superior force there is nothing to indicate (other than the fact that you got them to engage in the first place) whether they chose to engage you knowing the force you had available or if you baited them by showing a lesser force to begin with.
RVB is good fun ;) and I recommend it but it's not general EVE combat it's a semi-controlled environment about the only place you're generally going to find a high proportion of more or less even fights.
On fits I fly experimental fits all the time but I don't pretend that I'm somehow so special and creative that I'm going to think of something that one of the thousands of other people play this game haven't thought of already. Nor on the off chance that I actually happen to come up with such a fit do I think it likely to be picked up on by the greater community. And even if it did I suspect it would take all of a week for a counter to be dreamed up.
It is unlikely that you will kill enough people to gain any sort of notoriety, Particularly if there aren't kill boards to document it. The only reason I mention Lukka is that he's one of the guys on the top 10 on BC, He's more noteworthy for the PITA he caused RVB.
Any notoriety I've gained is from my activities on these boards not for my PVP Prowess, I don't consider myself a great PVPer, I'm competent but I'm no Lukka or Loren or Willl Adama.
The only reason the killers who are notable are notable in this game is because there is a record of the carnage they cause.
My inferences about you are based on more than just your killboard. Though that does provide some clue. Part of it comes from the fact that you created this stupid thread in the first place. Your killboard just confirms my point that the majority of people who cry about the killboard system do so because they don't like having their failure broadcast to the whole universe.
I'm sure there are some kick ass PVPers who also dislike the killboard system but they are definitely in the minority. Most successful PVPers I know like it just fine, and use it as a tool to improve their game play and monitor their progress.
The killmail system is the only record available to objectively evaluate a pilots combat performance. Whether the person is a corporate recruiter or the pilot themselves.
The smart ones use it as such a tool properly and draw those conclusions that can be drawn from it and avoid those that can't.
As another poster pointed out, You can tell who the blobbers are from looking at someone's killboard. Pilots who generally show up only on kills with 50 other people don't get as much respect as the one who's generally engaging in more or less even fights particularly those engaging solo or against greater odds.
The ranking system on BC even rewards it. Those who solo combat craft get more points than those who blob all the time or spend all their time ganking industrial ships. You lose a Rifter to a blob you don't lose as many points as if you lose a Jaguar to a Ibis.
Your argument that KM cause any harm is predicated on the idea that the only stat that anyone cares about is kill/death but there is a hell of a lot more shown on a killboard than that and people are going to look at other things like points/ranking and efficiency. How blobby you are do you fight people who can fight back etc.
The reality is that killboards discourage the activities you try to place at it's feet. It's just that for majority of PVPers killboards are a secondary concern.
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DJ Obsidian
New Eden Technical Institutes
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Posted - 2011.01.24 21:05:00 -
[100]
Dear op, your fail logic is fail.
First, mails dont encourage blobbing, people bringing more ships to a fight encourages others to bring more ships to the fight next time, until it gets out of control.
Second, killmails dont encourage gate camps. people flying expensive haulers full of goodies w/o an escort encourage gate camps, and also helps block supply lines to and from high sec.
Third, you were in a 6 v 1 fight? Well hell, you were screwed even w/o the ewar. Sure you might have taken 1 or 2 of them down with you, but you still would have died.
Forth, Killmails dont encourage hot dropping, as stated before, if you are flying an expensive ship by yourself with no one around, you are a target for anything that comes your way. If you dont like hot dropping blame reckoning and pan legion.
confirming that OP is an angry carebear alt, and before you talk about blobbing you should really remove those kills about 20 v 1 with your corp on there from the public killboards. just sayin.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.24 21:15:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Anubis Xian We aren't discussing the 'other' reasons people blob. Just killmails.
But as I mentioned killmails at least put a check on blobbing. You can see if someone never got a kill without 50 other people on the kill as well. It also shows if you took down a large ship with a single smaller ship - and how that larger ship was fit.
Without killmails the *only* consequence of pvp is isk. If that becomes the *only* consequence there will surely be *more* blobbing. The only people who want this are those who never pvp or only pvp in blobs. Killmails prove that is what they do, and they donÆt like it.
Well there are other ways to fix that. Like Battle Reports, which have none of the downsides of killmails.
What?
So we are to type up a battle report for every engagement based on the battlelogs? That we can demonstrate we are not blobbing? Of course everyone will then say they were blobbed. Yet there will never be any proof. The killmails are the proof. You want to do away with all the evidence.
Sorry this is just a horrible idea.
Again if you never pvp or only pvp with blobs it might sound pretty good. But for everyone else itÆs horrible.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.24 21:53:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Val'Dore <oh look more excuses "my dog ate my killboard">
The kill on the 22nd was 2 days ago it's right there on BC you and 6 others ganked 2 command ships and a Drake. It's your most recent PVP activity and you don't remember?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8601394
So you fail at killboarding.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
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Posted - 2011.01.24 22:15:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Val'Dore <oh look more excuses "my dog ate my killboard">
The kill on the 22nd was 2 days ago it's right there on BC you and 6 others ganked 2 command ships and a Drake. It's your most recent PVP activity and you don't remember?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8601394
So you fail at killboarding.
Hello timestamps
The Raven and Belicose were kills half an hour before the other 3 so I don't consider them a part of the same engagement.
Still I'll grant you that the battle may not have been as lopsided as it would appear simply looking at the Battle clinic report.
Which reinforces the need for an official killboard so one wouldn't need to check multiple boards to get a good picture of an engagement.
I'd also like to note that you were able to defend your actions in that fight by using a killboard.
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Styria Strike
Amarr United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.01.24 22:32:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Brutus B
Quote: With a kb history, you can evaulate recruits before you accept them, and gain intel on enemies before you fight them. So, I like them.
There are plenty of other and better tools to evaluate potential recruits... like what their previous corp thought of them. Killmails don't tell you anything useful really, other than that a fight happened somewhere and someone blew up.
I have to lol at that, i'am sorry.
There is hardly a better way to get known your enemy than with his KB stats. Where he moves, what ships he has, hes weapons, blah blah blah
Killmails and killboards should stay, intel is vital in EVE.
Now someone please come up with an idea to restrict the "show info" option on another player in game lol
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.25 01:36:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/01/2011 01:46:56
Originally by: Skex Relbore
This is the general trend I've seen on all these "Kill the Killboard" threads. The vast majority of people supporting have little or no record of PVP activity (generally because they post with alts) or outright suck. ... I'm an total killmail ***** the only change I'd like to see to the killmail system would be for CCP to build it into the game so people couldn't hide their losses or pad their boards with fake killmails. ... You are exactly the type I was talking about fail PVPer crying and blaming your suckage on killboards.
A couple comments: - Simply being on a killmail doesn't make you good at PVP. I would argue that being on 10000 killmails with 50 other people is proof positive that you don't know anything about PVP. - Some of the best PVPers I know are very rarely on killmails. - I appreciate the ability to post fake lossmails to throw people off. It's so juicy when they try to research you and think you're a nubcake. :) - I find your opinion totally irrelevant because you are more motivated by getting the killmail than getting the fight. The fact that you claim to know what motivates PVPers is mindboggling.
And if you're looking for Liang's recent combat history -- so sorry. I "neglected" to set up a corp/alliance killboard. We do occasionally share killmails on battleclinic though - so you'll have the best luck there.
-Liang
Ed: While Liang is one of my 65-70M SP mains, I do want to point out that I do the majority of my PVP on other accounts. Mostly so that people will get their mind off the ****ing killboard and on the point I'm trying to make. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Mocam
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Posted - 2011.01.25 02:01:00 -
[106]
Without killmails, there will be no reporting of what happens with respect to PvP in the game except from CCP.
"Screen Shot or it didn't happen".
Right now we get to hear about vast fleets of ships, from PLAYERS, that fight each other in nullsec. We hear about gangs roaming around other places chewing up large amounts of ships. All of this with links to killmails to back up claims.
It's not perfect but it beats the hell out of dead silence with gossip/rumors attempting to fill it all in. We get that from most other aspects of the game.
This at least lets the players see the numbers and decide for themselves if they are accurate or not.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.01.25 02:41:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Tony SoXai on 25/01/2011 02:43:08 Skex Relbore: Moron.
Anubis: Thinking person.
To not support this you are one of the guys who think they are pros from whooring the crap out of killmails all day. Camping a station all day and using boosting alts and whatnot does not make you good at pvp. Doesn't make you bad either, but because of their killboard (the reason they try so hard to camp and not die) they think they are top dogs and so do other people.
Buy a spaceship, no implants, no alts whatsoever, fit for pvp and go roaming once in a while. That is for the true pvper. The one you don't ***** with.
Solo pvp is "dead" because of killboards. And it's the truth.
Edit: if you want proof there was a huge fleet battle, goddamn, get someone to fraps it. It's not hard. Hell, press the button that says prtscrn on you frickin keyboard people.
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Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
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Posted - 2011.01.25 02:45:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Aessoroz on 25/01/2011 02:45:56
Originally by: Tony SoXai
Solo pvp is "dead" because of killboards. And it's the truth.
There is also no point in solo pvp if I don't have a killmail to prove my ability.
Killboards already award less points for blobbed kills and in the case of battle clinic, exponentially less points for blob kills. But overall killboards do not emphasize the point aspect as much as the isk/kill efficiencies which is where your glorious epeen arguments probably stem from.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.25 03:15:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Aessoroz Edited by: Aessoroz on 25/01/2011 02:45:56
Originally by: Tony SoXai
Solo pvp is "dead" because of killboards. And it's the truth.
There is also no point in solo pvp if I don't have a killmail to prove my ability
Really? That's a rather myopic viewpoint. All I have to do is undock.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.01.25 03:39:00 -
[110]
Why is there no point in solo pvp without killmails? what about fleet pvp? that can work fine without them too?
Of course they both would work very well without killmails, but what exactly are you trying to say?
The idea that killmails are the only reason to pvp is... pretty weird.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.25 03:46:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/01/2011 03:47:04
Originally by: Aessoroz There is also no point in solo pvp if I don't have a killmail to prove my ability.
Let me tell you some stories.
I remember a long time ago, I was flying a Drake - back when the Drake was the "worst PVP ship in the game". It was a HML Drake, and I warped to a gate. A gank Mega (the "best PVP ship in the game") landed on top of me and proceeded to kick my ass. Except that I one volleyed his drones... and then proceeded to kick his ass. He did get away in structure and I didn't get the killmail. But that was a good fight.
I remember a while back I was flying around in a Thrasher and came across an older player in a Vexor sporting T2 drones. I'm a bit crazy so I engaged him and focused on primarying his drones. It took a while, but I did eventually run him out of drones... and then I ransomed him for 10 mil. That was a fantastic fight and one of the best 10M I've ever earned.
I was flying a Drake when I got engaged by 2 Hurricanes and a Myrm. I fought them to a stand still and missed out on the killmails of the two canes as they died to sentry fire on the other side of the gate. I didn't miss out on the loot though.
A while back I was flying... a Brutix? I engaged a Drake and took him to armor. He ejected and I missed the pod. But, I bookmarked my free Drake. No killmail. Awesome kill. :)
I was flying a Cyclone and engaged an AF. He tried to do the AB+Scram thing but it didn't work out too well for him. Got him onto vent to for the ransom. EEEPPPPIIICCC!!!!
Killmails don't mean ****. The fights are what matter.
-Liang
Ed: Not many "recent" stories because I'm afraid I might out an alt. :) -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Maxx Overseer
Decrypt Enterprise
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Posted - 2011.01.25 05:21:00 -
[112]
well I think Kill-mail is a waste of broadband...
but if that is what the kids want? screw them...
if we can we will just jam the kill-mail
I'll send someone over to pop up the station now...
(remember this is a game) --- --- ---
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caldarichecker
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Posted - 2011.01.25 05:29:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Tony SoXai Edited by: Tony SoXai on 25/01/2011 02:43:08 Skex Relbore: Moron.
Anubis: Thinking person.
To not support this you are one of the guys who think they are pros from whooring the crap out of killmails all day. Camping a station all day and using boosting alts and whatnot does not make you good at pvp. Doesn't make you bad either, but because of their killboard (the reason they try so hard to camp and not die) they think they are top dogs and so do other people.
Buy a spaceship, no implants, no alts whatsoever, fit for pvp and go roaming once in a while. That is for the true pvper. The one you don't ***** with.
Solo pvp is "dead" because of killboards. And it's the truth.
Edit: if you want proof there was a huge fleet battle, goddamn, get someone to fraps it. It's not hard. Hell, press the button that says prtscrn on you frickin keyboard people.
Oh look would this be another Anubis Alt? Wouldn't surprise me since we're talking about someone who used their own sock puppet to bump their own stupid idea.
Oh and once again another person with crappy killboard status just reinforcing my point that most of the people who want to get rid of killboards are doing so because they suck.
Solo PVP is dead because the game isn't built to support it. But you know what there are plenty of solo PvPPPers running around who do just fine. I'm not one of them and I don't pretend to be. I'm gonna take what ever I need kill your ass and killboard ranking be damned.
Different people play this game for different reasons with different motivations. Some play it for the challenge of building an empire some play it to shoot rocks and mine **** some play to cause grief and yes some play to ***** onto killmails.
At the end of the day the killboards only cause you grief if you let them.
You are trying to define PVP as something far more constrained in this game than it is.
Oh let me add one to your little list.
Tony SoXai: another fail PVPer whining because the whole universe can see how fail they are.
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Dunkler Imperator
N.F.H.P. Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.01.25 05:34:00 -
[114]
No i like my killmails. What else will my double SB zealot be needed for? Btw there isn't anything wrong with KM it's human nature. It's a Game for freaking sake. Treat it like one.
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Massive Dragon
HAIL DRAGONS
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Posted - 2011.01.25 05:41:00 -
[115]
this thread was stupid yesterday and its stupider today.
we have a bunch of people who have almost no real experiance in pvp telling us why it is we pvp.
as it is most killboards have a point system which distributes less points for blobbing / ecm ships / logis ships etc etc. this in a way encourages people to play solo / "honorably"
people blob / ecm / gatecamp for many reasons, most of them boil down to "people dont like losing". removing kms will never stop people wanting to win. if anything you will be left with less people who care about what their rank / stats look like and you will most likely boil pvp down to enourmous fleet fights over moongold.
but hey... if thats the path you want your pvp to take.
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
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Posted - 2011.01.25 05:43:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/01/2011 01:46:56
Originally by: Skex Relbore
This is the general trend I've seen on all these "Kill the Killboard" threads. The vast majority of people supporting have little or no record of PVP activity (generally because they post with alts) or outright suck. ... I'm an total killmail ***** the only change I'd like to see to the killmail system would be for CCP to build it into the game so people couldn't hide their losses or pad their boards with fake killmails. ... You are exactly the type I was talking about fail PVPer crying and blaming your suckage on killboards.
A couple comments: - Simply being on a killmail doesn't make you good at PVP. I would argue that being on 10000 killmails with 50 other people is proof positive that you don't know anything about PVP. - Some of the best PVPers I know are very rarely on killmails. - I appreciate the ability to post fake lossmails to throw people off. It's so juicy when they try to research you and think you're a nubcake. :) - I find your opinion totally irrelevant because you are more motivated by getting the killmail than getting the fight. The fact that you claim to know what motivates PVPers is mindboggling.
And if you're looking for Liang's recent combat history -- so sorry. I "neglected" to set up a corp/alliance killboard. We do occasionally share killmails on battleclinic though - so you'll have the best luck there.
-Liang
Ed: While Liang is one of my 65-70M SP mains, I do want to point out that I do the majority of my PVP on other accounts. Mostly so that people will get their mind off the ****ing killboard and on the point I'm trying to make.
You are arguing against a strawman here Liang.
I've never claimed that just being on a killmail makes one a good PVPer. In fact I very specifically pointed out that one can tell the people who only blob from those who don't by looking at their killmail history.
I had always assumed that you did most of your PVPing on a different character from Liang so I don't expect you to be represented on killboards. Most of your arguments don't ring false so I don't call bull**** on them. I'll also point out that I said most people who object to killboards are fail PVPers and specifically noted that there are always exceptions.
I don't appreciate the ability to post fake losses/kills it undermines the ability to have a good record of PVP history.
The bit about being a killmail ***** is called sarcasm. I fight because I like fighting the killmails are just a record that I use to track progress to see my gradual change from sucking more to sucking less.
Oh I never claimed to know what motivates all PVPers not like the OP who claims that all are motivated by nothing but the desire to gather killmails. What I said was that Killmails do not encourage blobbing. The consequences of loss are what cause blobbing. Killmails actually provide a disincentive to blob because of the way points are assigned by most killboards.
Of course I laugh at people who try to stay off killboards because whether you post or not eventually someone you fight is going to post it even if you don't. Hell I even makes sure to post my losses to ensure as accurate record of possible exists. (plus I like to know exactly how a particular fit performed)
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Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.25 07:06:00 -
[117]
Not supported...
I have a better idea...if you don't like killmails...don't look at them. Problem solved.
/thread NO BOOBIES LEFT BEHIND! |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.25 07:34:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Skex Relbore You are arguing against a strawman here Liang. I've never claimed that just being on a killmail makes one a good PVPer.
Then it appears I misunderstood you.
Quote: I don't appreciate the ability to post fake losses/kills it undermines the ability to have a good record of PVP history .. The bit about being a killmail ***** is called sarcasm.
Oh man, but its awesome. You can make yourself look like a total ****ing noob and it makes the kill ever so sweeter when they're completely dumbstruck.
Quote: Killmails actually provide a disincentive to blob because of the way points are assigned by most killboards.
I don't really agree with that. Many killboards still still rank people off of the total number of kills... and really even 10 points for a blob kill is better than no points - or negative points for a loss.
Quote: Of course I laugh at people who try to stay off killboards because whether you post or not eventually someone you fight is going to post it even if you don't.
You'd be amazed how many people don't post lossmails.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.25 08:27:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Val''Dore on 25/01/2011 08:28:24
Originally by: caldarichecker Oh look would this be another Anubis Alt?
No, I have exactly one alt, and she only exists to play lotteries.
Originally by: Liang Nuren You'd be amazed how many people don't post lossmails.
-Liang
I always post mine, even when it only gets me attention from smackers and trolls for it.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.25 15:01:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Cearain on 25/01/2011 15:02:40
Originally by: Liang Nuren
à. - Simply being on a killmail doesn't make you good at PVP. I would argue that being on 10000 killmails with 50 other people is proof positive that you don't know anything about PVPàà
Ok IÆm not saying this is proof positive. But I would agree that this would make me think its quite likely this person does not really know how to pvp.
But this is the important thing: The only way you know that they only blob is by the killmails!! Killmails are the *only* consequence to pvp that does not encourage blobbing. Every other consequence to pvp encourages blobbing.
Pvp for isk? Then your best way is to blob. Pvp for sov? Then your best way is to blob. Pvp to get killmails that demonstrate some skill? - donÆt blob. Pvp for fun? Of course we all do that. But one of the reasons its fun is the consequences. If you take away the consequences it wonÆt be fun long.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Quote: Killmails actually provide a disincentive to blob because of the way points are assigned by most killboards.
I don't really agree with that. Many killboards still still rank people off of the total number of kills... and really even 10 points for a blob kill is better than no points - or negative points for a loss.
-Liang
First you can fairly well much tell if someone is a decent pilot by looking at their killboard. No you donÆt just look at the ranking! If you just look at the ranking then you are an idiot. But that is not the fault of the killmail that you do not know how to read them. The killmails and killboards are still very helpful in determining if someone is a decent pvper.(at least solo or small gang pvper)
Second the better killboards like battleclinic do not give 10 points for a blob kill. IÆm not saying the ranking is perfect but with it, and looking at the fits and the kills the person has with them you can get a sense if they are good or not. Are Pandemic legion and Genos Occidere pilots good pvpers? If you say yes then it should be no surprise to you that they do pretty well on the battleclinic rankings.
Without killmails to call out people, eve pvp will get much worse
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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