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Aerion Va'rr
The Priesthood The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2011.01.25 15:13:00 -
[121]
Why am I not surprised the OP doesn't have a battleclinic record?
You know KM's are a tool. We use these to evaluate a fight AFTER the fight (sure a little smack here and there), but an experienced FC will look at the battle report afterwards; and see what losses could have been negated and why, who isn't using standardized fits, who gimped their fit so they could ***** on the mail, etc etc so forth, and so on.
Also, aside from ship scanning a fleet before rolling out, KM's are a good way to determine the experience of people applying to your corp/alliance or offering to kill people in the name of whatever.
You say kill the killmails, I say fix them. With everything else thats messed up in this game; Its pretty sad that this is what you came up with to try and change. All I want is an overview that works.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.25 17:52:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Val''Dore on 25/01/2011 17:54:42
Originally by: Aerion Va'rr Why am I not surprised the OP doesn't have a battleclinic record?
I never use BattleClinic, so anything that would be on there would be inaccurate anyway.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.25 20:13:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Cearain ...
Your post is so completely full of epic fail that it's hard to respond to it constructively. I will try anyway.
You utterly misunderstood my point about 10000 killmails. What I was pointing out is that your killboard score - no matter how it's scored - is not a useful metric for measuring how good your PVP skill is when it continues to give any points for "blob" kills. Furthermore, there is no way at all to know if it was a "good fight" or a "blob kill" - afterall it isn't uncommon to only get a couple of kills when engaging a vastly superior force against the odds.
Consider: - A battleship kill with 5 BCs on it. - Two cruiser kills with 5 BCs on them.
How do you read those killmails? Who blobbed - and who got blobbed? What's the story there? Oh - that's right... there is insufficient information to answer even one of those questions. Yet you feel that you can somehow evaluate someone's entire PVP experience and worth using only an arbitrary scoring metric based on insufficient information to give you a good idea of what happened if you were there?
You say that the best way to get ISK when PVPing is to blob, yet that's patently false. The FC gets the ISK and you might get a 100th of your ship value from the loot. You say that the best way to demonstrate skill is to not blob - but that's not really true because killmails don't tell the whole story.
Quote: Pvp for fun? Of course we all do that. But one of the reasons its fun is the consequences. If you take away the consequences it wonÆt be fun long.
Specific comments: - People PVP in "lossless" MMOs all the time and have great fun in doing so. Some of the best and most fun PVP I've ever had was in Tier 1/2 in Warhammer Online... and I didn't lose anything at all when I lost. - You seem to be claiming that the lossmail is a consequence of PVP - and that giving someone a loss mail to report is somehow what drives you to PVP in Eve. What the **** man?
Frankly, people like you are what is wrong with PVP in Eve.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
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Posted - 2011.01.25 20:39:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cearain ...
Your post is so completely full of epic fail that it's hard to respond to it constructively. I will try anyway.
You utterly misunderstood my point about 10000 killmails. What I was pointing out is that your killboard score - no matter how it's scored - is not a useful metric for measuring how good your PVP skill is when it continues to give any points for "blob" kills. Furthermore, there is no way at all to know if it was a "good fight" or a "blob kill" - afterall it isn't uncommon to only get a couple of kills when engaging a vastly superior force against the odds.
Consider: - A battleship kill with 5 BCs on it. - Two cruiser kills with 5 BCs on them.
How do you read those killmails? Who blobbed - and who got blobbed? What's the story there? Oh - that's right... there is insufficient information to answer even one of those questions. Yet you feel that you can somehow evaluate someone's entire PVP experience and worth using only an arbitrary scoring metric based on insufficient information to give you a good idea of what happened if you were there?
There is more to reading a killboard than just reading individual kills. Sometimes you need to look at the battle reports for other kills in the area at the same time.
It doesn't change the fact that you can tell really quickly which pilots tend to fly with the blobs and which don't.
As far as it being a useful metric or not that would depend on just how active a pilot is. Admittedly it's not going to tell you much about a character with only say 10 or even 100 kills but once one crests 1000 well at that point patterns emerge.
Is it a perfect metric? No of course not there are no perfect metrics they all rely up on context.
There are any number of factors to determine what level of confidence one has in a given metric. So a smart person recognizes this.
A killboard for a PVP character is a bit like a resume. Just because you have 10 years experience in your field doesn't mean you are particularly good at it. However the odds of you be better at it than some random ******* off the street are fairly good which is why recruiters and managers use resume's to screen potential candidates.
They can be padded of course just like killboards and everyone tries to put the best possible spin on them. But they do serve a useful filtering purpose.
You check these people you know who are really good PVPers. If they really are good their killboards will show it. Unless they are good at a non-combat role such as logistics or scouting. But anyone with any sense understands that those are different skills from picking and winning fights. And those who don't will miss out on good recruits.
But for all it's failiing killboards are not only the best way to get a quick read on a given characters combat experience and capabilities it's the ONLY WAY to get that quick read.
I see all kinds of people on these forums all the time who can talk a good game but there is a huge gulf of difference between knowing what to do in PVP in this game and actually doing it.
I'm much better at theory crafting than I am at live PVP myself, So I don't give much credibility to people who simply talk a good game. Anyone can read a PVP guide and sound like they have half a clue. Not everyone can take that knowledge and translate it into actual kills.
Once again killboards aren't perfect but they are the best but also the ONLY objective measure of a pilots PVP competence in this game.
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Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.25 21:39:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 25/01/2011 21:42:26 I think the main premise of this killmail discussion is invalid.
Whether one is good or bad at PvP is not influenced by presence or absence of killmail. Removing them will not make people better or worse. Whether certain PvP tactics are effective or not is not influenced by killmails.
It is true that some people's decisions in battle are influenced by the presence of killmail. Those who let thoughts of killmails interfere with good tactics will be punished with lower performance.
Therefore, letting killmails stay is the hardcore thing to do. Only the weak suffer.
EDIT:
Quote: Once again killboards aren't perfect but they are the best but also the ONLY objective measure of a pilots PVP competence in this game.
This is a true statement, all other measurements are subjective.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.25 21:53:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Ephemeron
It is true that some people's decisions in battle are influenced by the presence of killmail. Those who let thoughts of killmails interfere with good tactics will be punished with lower performance.
2007.01.25 14:52
Victim: Pirating Corp: Every Pirate Corp Alliance: Unknown Faction: NONE Destroyed: Ransoming System: Low Sec Security: 0.4 Damage Taken: 1337
Involved parties:
Name: Killmails (laid the final blow) Security: -10.0 Corp: Killmail *****s Inc Alliance: None Faction: NONE Ship: Killmails Weapon: Epeen Damage Done: 1337
Destroyed items:
Ransoms ISK From PVP
2007.01.25 14:57
Victim: Small Gang PVP Corp: Every PVP Corp Alliance: Unknown Faction: NONE Destroyed: Solo PVP System: Low Sec Security: 0.4 Damage Taken: 1337
Involved parties:
Name: Killmails (laid the final blow) Security: -10.0 Corp: Killmail *****s Inc Alliance: None Faction: NONE Ship: Killmails Weapon: Epeen Damage Done: 1337
Destroyed items:
Committing to Combat Small Gang PVP
Yeah, killmails are totally good for the game.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.25 22:06:00 -
[127]
You seem to be implying that killmails "kill" pirating and small gang PvP
I happen to be a big supporter of promoting small gang PvP. But I address the real issues, not this silly drama.
The real issues effecting small gang PvP: *) The Great Nano Nerf - reduced speed tactics, ability of smaller forces to engage larger ones successfully *) gradual rise in defense/offense ratio due to numerous game altering patches, such as rigs, boosters, faction mods being much more defense than offensive, HP buffs, gang links, stacking nerfs *) 0.0 made safe for alliances with JBs, jump freighters, titan bridges - less small scale traffic thru stargates
Low sec suffers because of risk/reward ratio being totally screwed. Where 0.0 has less risk than low sec, yet more ISK making stuff than in low sec. High sec being extremely low risk, yet very profitable with level 4 agents. Balance that and you are half way solving the problems.
Killmails are nothing but a distraction from the real issues.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.01.25 23:34:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cearain ...
Your post is so completely full of epic fail that it's hard to respond to it constructively. I will try anyway.
You seem flustered. It appears you didnÆt read/comprehend what I said and you are not making sense. The bottom line is Skex is correct in saying killmails provide the only objective measure of pvp skill. They also provide allot of other helpful information.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
à. You say that the best way to get ISK when PVPing is to blob, yet that's patently false. The FC gets the ISK and you might get a 100th of your ship value from the loot.
IÆm not sure what you mean by ôthe fc gets the isk.ö I have never flown in a gang where the fc gets all the loot. But from what I understand about 50% of fit mods on a killed ship should drop. So no pvp in general is not a good way to make isk. But you are in general going to be better off isk wise, to the extent your gang is bigger than everyone elses. You donÆt actually doubt this do you?
So if your intent is to blow up your enemies isk and save your own the best strategy is to blob.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You say that the best way to demonstrate skill is to not blob - but that's not really true because killmails don't tell the whole story.
The above statement doesnÆt make any sense. How would a killmailÆs ability to ôtell the whole storyö effect whether non blob pvp is the best way to demonstrate skill??? Killmails donÆt tell the whole story and no one in this thread ever said they did. But by looking at rankings *and* other things such as how many are on each killmail what are they fighting, what fits are they flying in and other information we get *from* killmails you can get a decent idea if someone knows how to pvp.
Quote: Pvp for fun? Of course we all do that. But one of the reasons its fun is the consequences. If you take away the consequences it wonÆt be fun long.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Specific comments: - People PVP in "lossless" MMOs all the time and have great fun in doing so. Some of the best and most fun PVP I've ever had was in Tier 1/2 in Warhammer Online... and I didn't lose anything at all when I lost.
No doubt some people can endlessly play games with nothing on the line. But if there is something on the line, the game is always more exciting.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- You seem to be claiming that the lossmail is a consequence of PVP - and that giving someone a loss mail to report is somehow what drives you to PVP in Eve. What the **** man?
Frankly, people like you are what is wrong with PVP in Eve.
-Liang
IÆm not just ôclaimingö lossmails are consequences of pvp IÆm stating a fact. I wouldnÆt say ôgiving people a loss mail to reportö is somehow what drives me to pvp. But trying to give more lossmails than I receive is something I certainly strive for.
And certainly if there were no killmails I would quickly get tired of eve. Not only do they give some more consequences to battles, and to some extent measure your success. But they put some check on blobbing, and lame tactics by at least helping identify when they are used.
This is a *game* Liang. Every game is better if there is some method to measure your success. It helps people strive for whatever they want.
You want golf without scorecards, and to tear down the scoreboards in football, baseball basketball and every other sport. Why? Because they do not perfectly measure skill at that sport. And keeping score might prevent *some* people from playing that sport. A single game does not perfectly measure a teams ability at a sport. Nor does a single killmail or battle report based on killmails. But over time you can at least reach some conclusions about pilots skill.
Eve as they say is a sand box. People can decide what their goals are. If you want to make lots of isk, you can. And you can measure your success by your wallet. If you want to schmooze other players and run a big alliance, you can. And you can measure your success by the number of people in your alliance and the territory you own.
If you want to be a good pvp pilot there is only one thing to measure your success û your killmail stream. No one says they are perfect but they are a lot better than nothing. You can tell if someone is just killing pve ships and industrials, if they are always outnumbering the other side, how they fit their ships, etc.
They should be improved no doubt. I think ships that give boosts and repps to the killers should appear on killmails. This would make them even better but, of course, still not perfect. But doing away with them altogether is really just a bad idea.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.25 23:39:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Val''Dore on 25/01/2011 23:40:17
Originally by: Ephemeron You seem to be implying that killmails "kill" pirating and small gang PvP
Do you have any idea how long it has been since I've seen a real pirate? Almost five years. I think Veto still does legitimate piracy, but I don't even know that for a fact either.
Hint: Piracy doesn't involve blowing the victim up (unless they don't pay the ransom or toll)... which means no killmail. Killmails killed piracy.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
lilolme1
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Posted - 2011.01.25 23:42:00 -
[130]
yes, purely because in large alliances ppl ninja on so many killmails when large fleets battles, assume they are epeen, when infact all they did was orbit and shoot.. wow uber pvper.
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Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.26 00:06:00 -
[131]
The only thing I'm in favor in changing about killmails is how all the killboards count kills.
Killboards award "kill" credit to everyone involved, instead of just the people who deal the killblow. When 3 different alliances participate in combat together, each one with its own killboard gets credit for the same kill.
What this results in is that whenever alliance coalitions fight, they all seem to have positive kill ratio, even tho they are fighting each other and can't mathematically have positive ratios for everyone involved.
That type of ***gotry I'm against. It makes killboards inaccurate in representing alliance combat prowess.
Claiming that killmails "force" people to fight a certain way is just stupid. That's like saying the "threat of pvp" is forcing people to stay in high sec.
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Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2011.01.26 00:24:00 -
[132]
Killmails are currently the only metric about the damage dealt and received in fights.
Removing them won't end blobbing, it will just remove the ability for people to see how they're doing in the fights, deprive the ability to estimate one's success or activity (useful tool for recruiting), it would also remove intelligence tools used to know standard fittings of your ennemies.
I will oppose this motion if it ever gets to the table.
Actually, I favour extending killmails to pods as well so implants would show. This was raised twice (and will be raised again), so far it hasn't happened because of technical reasons, but I'll keep raising it.
Your solution to the "blob" problem is not one. I agree that small gangs should be encouraged (not at the expense of the ability of having huge fights if people are so inclined however). Providing more incentives for small groups such as, for instance, smaller disruptive targets in sov fights, decreasing big blobs mobility by nerfing/removing jump bridges and other things along those lines are things I favour. ----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4 and 5. Feel free to contact me with queries. Convo, evemail or join the "meissaCSM" in-game channel. |
Rico Minali
Gallente Sons Of 0din C0NVICTED
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Posted - 2011.01.26 00:25:00 -
[133]
GTFO
Not supported Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
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Posted - 2011.01.26 01:41:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Aessoroz on 26/01/2011 01:47:16 Edited by: Aessoroz on 26/01/2011 01:46:23 Edited by: Aessoroz on 26/01/2011 01:45:02
Originally by: Ephemeron You seem to be implying that killmails "kill" pirating and small gang PvP
I happen to be a big supporter of promoting small gang PvP. But I address the real issues, not this silly drama.
The real issues effecting small gang PvP: *) The Great Nano Nerf - reduced speed tactics, ability of smaller forces to engage larger ones successfully *) gradual rise in defense/offense ratio due to numerous game altering patches, such as rigs, boosters, faction mods being much more defense than offensive, HP buffs, gang links, stacking nerfs *) 0.0 made safe for alliances with JBs, jump freighters, titan bridges - less small scale traffic thru stargates
Low sec suffers because of risk/reward ratio being totally screwed. Where 0.0 has less risk than low sec, yet more ISK making stuff than in low sec. High sec being extremely low risk, yet very profitable with level 4 agents. Balance that and you are half way solving the problems.
Killmails are nothing but a distraction from the real issues.
Exactly, however it's not just the risk factor. There needs to be a push/encouragement for more people to get into pvp zones. Those who live in empire are often driven by the pathological fear that low sec and null sec mean instadeath for them no matter what they try which is just wrong. There needs to be a better way to introduce them to pvp not being a horrible thing. Perhaps making the start systems a null sec system connected to empire but putting a very low player SP limit on the stargates so only newbs can screw around but this is quite an extreme idea. However there is of course the people who would never pvp and have no desire for it and that is to be expected, but I do believe there are people that would if introduced to it properly or in a fun way.
On another note, low sec may never see an exciting rise in activity even if theres a rise in rewards until theres some way to "control" systems like null sec sov allows for alliances to do. Whats the point if hostiles can just dock up in the same stations?
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Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.26 02:35:00 -
[135]
side note: if low sec offered same rewards as 0.0, I'd be there, roaming the regions. If others wouldn't take the opportunity, more good stuff for me.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:16:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Ephemeron Killmails are nothing but a distraction from the real issues.
It isn't. If I want to get in some corp being sure they will look at I just have two problems to resolve:
Find some friends to RR/ECM/DPS and gatecamp with me.
OR
Probe missioners in high sec and blow them faster than you can take your pants off
And so:
I have an excellent killboard and super killmails, because this is what you look first if I apply isn't?.
Lets face it, you can put all the bad will you want in this matter but the fact is that this system is the best way to push people to farm killmails and any thing to get them goes. No matter the corp you have ben or you are I'm pretty sure the first thing you guys do after any "fight" is to lik your killmail on the corp/alliance/intell/private etc etc tchat.
If you are realy loking for fights then you have wardecs in high sec, do them. In low sec, jump in your enemies systems and stop pussie games at gates and with mission boats (lol fake this one) and if that's not enough you can play with reds at 0.0.
I'm pretty sure that if you search fight's you'll find them, but you don't, you search killmails and so you don't take any risk of BE someone else killmail. You can try to convince yourself that it's the isk loss to the enemi and all the blah blah blah, you are the only one who is convinced that every one else is going to belive you, is that because your killboard is better than others here or mine?
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:19:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/01/2011 03:21:25
Quote: You seem flustered.
Yeah, its because you people are ****ing stupid and I don't have any patience to deal with you. I absolutely despise douchebag killmail *****s and ***gots waving their epeen about and trumpeting about their uber killmail history - and frankly that's all I'm seeing from you people.
Quote: IÆm not sure what you mean by ôthe fc gets the isk.ö I have never flown in a gang where the fc gets all the loot. But from what I understand about 50% of fit mods on a killed ship should drop. So no pvp in general is not a good way to make isk. But you are in general going to be better off isk wise, to the extent your gang is bigger than everyone elses. You donÆt actually doubt this do you?
Do you even PVP? This is the way things really work: - 50 guys get together and go on a roam - They're awesome and get 15 kills (total drop = ~50 mil) and 5 losses (~150M each) - The FC collects all the loot and promises to disperse the ISK to the people who lost ships once everything has sold - Best case scenario, you'll get ~10 mil for your 150 mil ship... but in reality you can kiss that ISK goodbye because you ain't getting **** from the FC.
No, if your goal is to make ISK by PVPing, then you need to be in a very small gang and be very successful. You solo the guy, you scoop the loot, you make it back to station, and you liquidate it. I've also set up "loot cans" in hostile space so I don't have to haul it to a station.
The next conversation requires context:
Originally by: Cearain The above statement doesnÆt make any sense. How would a killmailÆs ability to ôtell the whole storyö effect whether non blob pvp is the best way to demonstrate skill???
Let's see - the chain of conversation is about killmails showing skill. I say that no killmail can ever show skill because it doesn't tell the whole story. For instance, you can't establish relative gang sizes from killmails. TBH its no surprise that such a statement wouldn't make sense to someone who PVPs purely for the killmails.
Quote: No doubt some people can endlessly play games with nothing on the line. But if there is something on the line, the game is always more exciting.
Comments: - Counter strike is one of the most played PVP games in history. There's nothing ever really on the line except winning and losing. - Did you know that you don't get killmails for many kinds of PVP in Eve? Market PVP lets you risk more than dozens of fully faction fit faction battleships. You don't get anything except the satisfaction of having beat the other guy.
Quote:
This is a *game* Liang. Every game is better if there is some method to measure your success. It helps people strive for whatever they want.
I underlined the really interesting parts there. I agree that it's a game, and its nice of there's a way to measure your success. But that method of measurement doesn't have to be or need to be killmails. In fact, it would be much better if they were removed... because they measure failure more than success.
Ultimately, my question boils down to this: Why do you feel you need validation of your PVP "skill"?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:33:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel Killmails are currently the only metric about the damage dealt and received in fights.
This is not an important metric. Hell, its broken on almost every single killmail and nobody even *****es.
Quote: Removing them won't end blobbing
I agree, it wouldn't end blobbing. Certainly not in sov warfare.
Quote: it will just remove the ability for people to see how they're doing in the fights
There are ways to do this without providing killmails. Aggregate kill/loss totals by ship class for example.
Quote: deprive the ability to estimate one's success or activity (useful tool for recruiting)
Also useful for being an epeen waving ***got. Probably the biggest reason I despise killmails.
Quote: it would also remove intelligence tools used to know standard fittings of your ennemies.
And that's a FANTASTIC reason to get rid of killmails. :)
Quote: I will oppose this motion if it ever gets to the table.
Glad to know I won't be voting for you.
Quote: Actually, I favour extending killmails to pods as well so implants would show.
If you gotta have killmails, might as well.
Quote: I agree that small gangs should be encouraged (not at the expense of the ability of having huge fights if people are so inclined however). Providing more incentives for small groups such as, for instance, smaller disruptive targets in sov fights, decreasing big blobs mobility by nerfing/removing jump bridges and other things along those lines are things I favour.
Good, good.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
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Posted - 2011.01.26 04:09:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Too many people treat them as the validation of PVP prowess even though there are much better ways of going about it.
Name one? Make it objective, measurable and meaningful in the context of EVE.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.26 04:47:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Liang Nuren Too many people treat them as the validation of PVP prowess even though there are much better ways of going about it.
Name one? Make it objective, measurable and meaningful in the context of EVE.
Why are Chribba, Istvaan Shogatsu, Tank CEO, and SirMolle 'famous'? Why was Lord Zap and Ginger Magician notorious? Why is Menod Pentor well known even outside of Rens? Why are there still hundreds of players in EvE who knew and respected Golan Trevize for his work in New and Old CVA? Why is CYVOK still... oh wait, score one for killmails. Why do people troll my topics and posts just because I'm the one posting regardless of the content?
If you need a killboard to validate yourself to others, you don't have anything special to contribute to the community and as such you should be forgotten and overlooked. I don't mind being nobody, I mean I change my main pretty much every 2 years... so obviously I don't care about having a name people remember. But killboards screw with that. You can't be a PvPer without having a record on a killboard somewhere, and that annoys me. Not because I care about how good or bad my record is, but because I don't want people to know how good (or not) I am. I just want to fight, but those fights are cheapened by killmails and those who pvp only to get them.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
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Posted - 2011.01.26 06:56:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Skex Relbore on 26/01/2011 06:56:53
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Liang Nuren Too many people treat them as the validation of PVP prowess even though there are much better ways of going about it.
Name one? Make it objective, measurable and meaningful in the context of EVE.
Why are Chribba, Istvaan Shogatsu, Tank CEO, and SirMolle 'famous'? Why was Lord Zap and Ginger Magician notorious? Why is Menod Pentor well known even outside of Rens? Why are there still hundreds of players in EvE who knew and respected Golan Trevize for his work in New and Old CVA? Why is CYVOK still... oh wait, score one for killmails. Why do people troll my topics and posts just because I'm the one posting regardless of the content?
If you need a killboard to validate yourself to others, you don't have anything special to contribute to the community and as such you should be forgotten and overlooked. I don't mind being nobody, I mean I change my main pretty much every 2 years... so obviously I don't care about having a name people remember. But killboards screw with that. You can't be a PvPer without having a record on a killboard somewhere, and that annoys me. Not because I care about how good or bad my record is, but because I don't want people to know how good (or not) I am. I just want to fight, but those fights are cheapened by killmails and those who pvp only to get them.
Reading comprehension practice it. My question wasn't to provide a way to show how someone could become famous or notorious. Rather the request was to provide an objective measurable metric that is meaningful measure of PVP prowess in EVE.
There are thousands of people playing EVE and a vanishingly small percentage of those will ever gain the level of notoriety as those on your little list there. Just like a vanishing small number of people will ever be the next billionaire or blockbuster movie star in real life.
How do you think an employer would react if you came in and said "I don't think I should have to provide a resume, It's not an accurate reflection of my true skills and work ethic plus they can be faked so just take my word that I don't suck." Probably wouldn't go over too well would it?
Well the same goes for killboards. Since the vast majority of players will never become famous and corporations still need grunts they need a way to filter the decent prospects from the riff raff.
And the only tool for doing that in an objective way is the killmail system.
Null sec alliances want to know if people are going to be disciplined enough not to screw up during major ops. Pirate corps want to make sure that recruits aren't going to do stupid stuff that's going to result in their older members losing ships that shouldn't have been lost. Mercenary corps rely on Killmails to prove they are actually meeting the obligations of their contracts.
There is a hell of a lot more built upon the Killmail system than simply epeen stroking.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.26 07:01:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/01/2011 07:03:32 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/01/2011 07:01:19
Originally by: Skex Relbore
How do you think an employer would react if you came in and said "I don't think I should have to provide a resume, It's not an accurate reflection of my true skills and work ethic plus they can be faked so just take my word that I don't suck." Probably wouldn't go over too well would it?
FYI, it tends to work out pretty well when you give a lecture on their field and outline both the problems they're going to face and ways in which they can solve them. It also helps that places tend to have actual proficiency tests and don't just look at your resume. Furthermore, I wouldn't really want to work for a company where your resume played a more important role than filtering you through the HR department.
Quote: There is a hell of a lot more built upon the Killmail system than simply epeen stroking.
No, there really isn't.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.26 07:20:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Liang Nuren Too many people treat them as the validation of PVP prowess even though there are much better ways of going about it.
Name one? Make it objective, measurable and meaningful in the context of EVE.
I would be very much in favor of aggregate kill statistics that were available via the API.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.26 07:29:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Skex Relbore the request was to provide an objective measurable metric that is meaningful measure of PVP prowess in EVE.
Well since killmails aren't... what do you propose we use when they are neutered?
Quote: How do you think an employer would react if you came in and said "I don't think I should have to provide a resume, It's not an accurate reflection of my true skills and work ethic plus they can be faked so just take my word that I don't suck." Probably wouldn't go over too well would it?
Things are not always as they seem and letting killboards run your standards methodology is probably why I've never heard of you nor your corp before this thread.
Quote: Well the same goes for killboards. Since the vast majority of players will never become famous and corporations still need grunts they need a way to filter the decent prospects from the riff raff.
Even so, you can't always be sure you aren't missing something important. Maybe the candidate is the type who never posts killmails... what does that do to your methodology?
Quote: And the only tool for doing that in an objective way is the killmail system.
In my experience, people will read killmails any way they want and the only ones who actually care about killboards are the players who care about killboards anyway. I'd say that the best pvpers probably never use a killboard... why would they?
Quote: Null sec alliances want to know if people are going to be disciplined enough not to screw up during major ops.
Killboards can't tell you that.
Quote: Pirate corps want to make sure that recruits aren't going to do stupid stuff that's going to result in their older members losing ships that shouldn't have been lost.
Killboards can't tell you that.
Quote: Mercenary corps rely on Killmails to prove they are actually meeting the obligations of their contracts.
There are plenty of other methods, methods that might even be more impressive.
Quote: There is a hell of a lot more built upon the Killmail system than simply epeen stroking.
Nope, not really.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
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Posted - 2011.01.26 07:30:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Skex Relbore on 26/01/2011 07:30:32
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/01/2011 07:03:32 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/01/2011 07:01:19
Originally by: Skex Relbore
How do you think an employer would react if you came in and said "I don't think I should have to provide a resume, It's not an accurate reflection of my true skills and work ethic plus they can be faked so just take my word that I don't suck." Probably wouldn't go over too well would it?
FYI, it tends to work out pretty well when you give a lecture on their field and outline both the problems they're going to face and ways in which they can solve them. It also helps that places tend to have actual proficiency tests and don't just look at your resume. Furthermore, I wouldn't really want to work for a company where your resume played a more important role than filtering you through the HR department.
Good ****ing luck getting in the door to give your little lecture.
Quote:
Quote: There is a hell of a lot more built upon the Killmail system than simply epeen stroking.
No, there really isn't.
-Liang
Yes there is. I just described several. How would a merc company show their activity to an employer with out the killmails to document it? How is the average recruiter supposed to know if a potential recruit has any actual PVP experience?
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.26 07:42:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/01/2011 07:45:29
Originally by: Skex Relbore Good ****ing luck getting in the door to give your little lecture.
I don't need luck, considering I DID it - and got the job. I also notice you neglected the rest of the point. For a more Eve based metric: my corp kicked someone's ass a few days back. We now have a standing invite to their alliance. ZOMG.
Quote: How is the average recruiter supposed to know if a potential recruit has any actual PVP experience?
Maybe by actually flying with them for a few days. Maybe by talking to them for a few minutes. Just maybe.
-Liang
-- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Commoner
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.01.26 08:50:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/01/2011 07:45:29
Originally by: Skex Relbore Good ****ing luck getting in the door to give your little lecture.
I don't need luck, considering I DID it - and got the job. I also notice you neglected the rest of the point. For a more Eve based metric: my corp kicked someone's ass a few days back. We now have a standing invite to their alliance. ZOMG.
Quote: How is the average recruiter supposed to know if a potential recruit has any actual PVP experience?
Maybe by actually flying with them for a few days. Maybe by talking to them for a few minutes. Just maybe.
-Liang
The "flying with them" is the job interview, their killboard record is their resume.
When you apply for a job, you usually require both, a lousy killboard record is a bad resume and won't get you invited to an interview. The killboard is the first filter, if anyone could apply join our corp and fly with us to test them and no records existed, we would never get time for anything else than recruitment and training.
The "flying with them" part is more about personality and personal kompetence, how well do the guy fit into the group, the other part are the "facts" (as accurate as they can get, since faked/forged resume are quite common).
I simply do not believe that the removal of killmails would provide any tangible benefit, and many corps use those boards as a vital tool in their recruitment process.
Incidently i looked you up, nice record, tells me that you're a competent pilot... :) I might want to invite you for an interview.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.01.26 09:49:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/01/2011 09:50:01
Absolute nonsense from the OP. People blob because a) they can, and b) there's safety in numbers. People don't like losing ISK, ships or face, and killmails have nothing to do with this.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.26 10:34:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/01/2011 09:50:01
Absolute nonsense from the OP. People blob because a) they can, and b) there's safety in numbers. People don't like losing ISK, ships or face, and killmails have nothing to do with this.
How can they lose face if there are no killmails?
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:07:00 -
[150]
Oh, I dunno, maybe people get embarrassed having to warp out in a pod. Or maybe the victors smack in local?
I know that your point is that publication of losses via killmails enhances the loss of face. And it's not an argument without merit. But it's still just one of many contributory factors. Perceived loss of face, and the potential loss of face, ISK and time will still be the dominant factors.
If you want to reduce blobbing, as your OP suggests, then you need to increase deployment and fleet form-up times, reduce the ease of dissemination of intel and to spread people out in space. This could be achieved by limiting/removing jump bridges, removing local as an infallible instant intelligence source and dispersing PVE rewards away from single systems (nerfing upgraded systems and Sanctums?). Blobs will then take longer to form, react and move.
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