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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:28:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Emma Cartwright
I started flying Caldari. Hated it. Try to hit anything that moves with missiles in PVP... Try to outmanouver hostiles while sitting in a ship with the agility of an elephant. Rather small dronebay, if any. Dead ship.
Except that caldari ships have amazing agility. The drake is just as agile as the hurricane, caracal has amazing agility etc.
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StrykerR1
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:09:00 -
[62]
actually gallente are popular again :) one of the most diverse ships that are useful in a Incursion 2 words "Logi domni" lol not only can u have a sweet RR/target painter but you can carry several types of drones and switch between webbing or dps or what ever you want :) and little blaster thoraxes are the ****nit at mwd to the snipers to web and then melt face shortly after :) did i mention drones?
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My Postman
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:53:00 -
[63]
I did¦nt bother to read all of the thread but if noone else mentioned:
Rails Sucks Blasters Sucks Drones are fine (pve)
Tl;Dr: CCP hates Gallente
Fake edit: My mission Dominix is ok, and my Ishtar rocks.
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Mad Yojik
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Posted - 2011.01.27 18:14:00 -
[64]
Well if you look for a bad PvP ship setup - I guess thats caldari, not gallente. At least for solo PvP - lose half your midslots for tackling equipment - oops, where is my tank went? And where is my reists??? Not to mention trying to actually hit something closer then 20-30 km with that damn rails... or trying to get or close and personal to use some sort of blaster fire... and that massive shield EM hole, even in T2 ships... Not sure,but their main use seems PvE, bait (buffer drakes) and PvP jammers. But I'm a bit noobish for PvP, so if I'm wrong - point me to good solo caldari setup, capable to kill something equal in size...
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.01.27 21:43:00 -
[65]
Small-ship-wise, both hybrids and gallente are fine. They have great frigate sized ships and great cruiser sized ships. Some of the best in their class.
The good things about gallente and hybrids outweigh the bad.
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente United Mining And Distribution
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Posted - 2011.01.28 01:47:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Tony SoXai Small-ship-wise, both hybrids and gallente are fine. They have great frigate sized ships and great cruiser sized ships. Some of the best in their class.
The good things about gallente and hybrids outweigh the bad.
Go get some experience with gallente and hybrids or post with your main before you make a comment like that
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.01.28 01:59:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Tony SoXai Small-ship-wise, both hybrids and gallente are fine. They have great frigate sized ships and great cruiser sized ships. Some of the best in their class.
The good things about gallente and hybrids outweigh the bad.
Go get some experience with gallente and hybrids or post with your main before you make a comment like that
Comments like this don't change me being right.
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Yun Kuai
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Posted - 2011.01.28 02:02:00 -
[68]
You guys are funny. Started gallente, said f*ck it and switched to a drake, then trained for a harbi, finally broke down to fly minmatar.
The blaster boats and the hybrids are broken. EFT a brutix with blasters and autos, you can fit 220mm autos/1600mm plate/and a mwd no problem. To achieve the same fit with blasters, you have to use electrons .
Sad thing is, the autos get the same amount of dps, but they have better tracking and range while maintaining the ability to hit the targets at point blank range.
So lets put the pros and cons of blasters: Pros - they have awesome paper dps when using ions Cons - they have the worst tracking in the game they have no range they use cap they use ammo they have extensive pg requirements on ships that have low pg (1600mm plate on a thorax or vexor means you can't put medium guns wihtout pg rigs or losing low slots for RCU).
As for those who say, well just shield buffer it and go for dps. I FC a lot, I see the brutix on the field and I call it primary because if it's shield buffered, it will drop like a rock, and if it's armor tanked and still wants dps, it again has no buffer and will drop like a rock.
And those that say well gallente are mainly drone boats anyways...umm last time I checked, almost every ship in the game minus the zealot and most of the frigs has a drone bay of some sort. Doesn't do a whole lot of good to be a drone boat race when everyone else gets to use them as well.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.01.28 03:00:00 -
[69]
"brutix gets the same dps with 220 vulcans as with electron blasters"
hahahahahahaha
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space bear
Gallente Farbotz
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Posted - 2011.01.28 06:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Tony SoXai Edited by: Tony SoXai on 28/01/2011 05:40:42 "brutix gets the same dps with 220 vulcans as with electron blasters"
hahahahahahaha
Edit: ^^ implies that every race uses drones just as gallente. also hahahahahaha
Sounds like one missed the point... Try reading it again, yes.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.01.28 06:48:00 -
[71]
K people, here's how it is:
Blaster Pros - Huge dps
Blaster Cons - Bad tracking (you should be fitting webs if you're going this close anyway (think double webs)) - Bad range (of course there has to be a catch for the amazing huge dps) - They use cap (not much, if the cap usage of blasters is causing you fights you're doing it wrong) - They use a lot of ammo
Maybe throw the dogs a bone and buff the stupid little things that are worth complaing about.
Give them better tracking, make them use a little bit less cap, make them use less ammo. Also that "shotgun" idea in the assembly hall is a great idea.
Anyway the people complaining about blasters are probly the ones who got their thorax kited by a ruppy or their mega kited by a nanopest.
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Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.01.28 07:09:00 -
[72]
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Bluejacket CT
So a Raven could take on a Megathron? lolz
Yes? Not sure why there's lolz here.
~
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Julius Foederatus
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Posted - 2011.01.28 09:06:00 -
[73]
Trying to use solo pvp to say that Gallente ships are fine is kinda silly, since solo pvp is determined by 70% ship fittings, 20% initial engagement range, and 10% pilot skill. If a blaster ship with tackle gets hold of a missile or an AC ship without, it will win. If it doesn't pretty much start out with that hold, it will lose. Obviously this is a big generalization, but I think it holds more or less true.
The issue with Gallente is that they can't compete in fleet pvp. I'm talking about gangs of 15+. They have to compromise dps for tank, tank for speed, and without speed, they can never apply dps. So if they ever do get in range, they're probably in structure or deep armor, and if they're heavily tanked, they may never get in range. The simple issue with Gallente ships is they have to be faster to compete in a fleet setting. There's no way of getting around it, unless you want to make blasters like ACs or pulse lasers, but frankly I don't want to play red vs. blue with different ship skins. I like the idea of up close and personal pvp, but it has to be balanced with speed otherwise it is fail, always.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.01.28 09:07:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Bluejacket CT
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Bluejacket CT
So a Raven could take on a Megathron? lolz
Yes? Not sure why there's lolz here.
I don't get it. Are you saying that a Megathron would normally beat a Raven? Because that's crazy talk.
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Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.01.28 09:09:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Bluejacket CT
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Bluejacket CT
So a Raven could take on a Megathron? lolz
Yes? Not sure why there's lolz here.
I don't get it. Are you saying that a Megathron would normally beat a Raven? Because that's crazy talk.
More of an inside thing, me and Chat have a bit of a stylistic difference in ships. ~
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.01.28 09:10:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Yun Kuai
The blaster boats and the hybrids are broken. EFT a brutix with blasters and autos, you can fit 220mm autos/1600mm plate/and a mwd no problem. To achieve the same fit with blasters, you have to use electrons .
Are you comparing the dps numbers of the middle level autocannons with the lowest tier blasters??
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.01.28 09:39:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Julius Foederatus Trying to use solo pvp to say that Gallente ships are fine is kinda silly, since solo pvp is determined by 70% ship fittings, 20% initial engagement range, and 10% pilot skill. If a blaster ship with tackle gets hold of a missile or an AC ship without, it will win. If it doesn't pretty much start out with that hold, it will lose. Obviously this is a big generalization, but I think it holds more or less true.
The issue with Gallente is that they can't compete in fleet pvp. I'm talking about gangs of 15+. They have to compromise dps for tank, tank for speed, and without speed, they can never apply dps. So if they ever do get in range, they're probably in structure or deep armor, and if they're heavily tanked, they may never get in range. The simple issue with Gallente ships is they have to be faster to compete in a fleet setting. There's no way of getting around it, unless you want to make blasters like ACs or pulse lasers, but frankly I don't want to play red vs. blue with different ship skins. I like the idea of up close and personal pvp, but it has to be balanced with speed otherwise it is fail, always.
Just adding straight speed to gallente ships, wont solve the issues with hybrids you will still have to travel to apply your dps, you will just be doing it faster.
Giving them instant ammo swaps might be nice, as they wont encroch on lasers due to still using ammo, and having shorter range even with the 'long' range ammo. Then a damage boost so it really is dangerous to get into scram range of a blaster boat. Mind you the damage boost is only for medium and large hybrids, small hybrids are brilliant already.
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Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.01.28 09:57:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Bluejacket CT on 28/01/2011 09:57:09 Yeah I agree with you on that Korg. Give them slightly better tracking and the ability to swap between void/AM and null instantaneously and it will reduce a lot of the drawbacks of blasters without causing balance issues.
Edit: And yes, small hybrids ARE full of win. ~
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space bear
Gallente Farbotz
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Posted - 2011.01.28 15:32:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Julius Foederatus ...the issue with Gallente is that they can't compete in fleet pvp...
The issue with Gallente (if we're talking about blaster boats larger than frigates) is that they can't neither compete in small pvp (I agree that some "veteran" can have some kind of success engaging new comers or pve fitted ships, but this case is somewhat irrelevant here, me think.) If the fight involves two similarly competent pilots, the blaster ship pilot will, in almost every possible case scenario, be unable to apply some sort of significant damage before being shot down in flames.
At frigate size hulls, blaster boats still work because differences in speed, agility, and even tank are not yet unbalancing things too much in their defavour.
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Jas Dor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.28 19:08:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Yun Kuai
As for those who say, well just shield buffer it and go for dps. I FC a lot, I see the brutix on the field and I call it primary because if it's shield buffered, it will drop like a rock, and if it's armor tanked and still wants dps, it again has no buffer and will drop like a rock.
Hum I don't know:
Quote:
[Brutix, DPS] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Warp Scrambler II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Hammerhead II x5
48,000EHP. It's certainly no Drake but I normally think of "going down like a rock" as ships in the <20,000EHP range.
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Jas Dor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.28 20:21:00 -
[81]
Blasters are somewhat like the difference between Newtonian physics and general relativity. The rules change as the numbers get really big. If you're sitting at 20m SP with a bunch of gunnery skills at 4, then lasers are a much better weapon for you. At higher SPs things get a little bit different. Most pilots put face melt DPS at around 550dps on a medium platform. A zealot with scortch is putting down something like 450dps max (probably more around 380-400 for most pilots), though doing so at over 30km optimal. In EvE your damage (for gunnery based weapons) is defined as:
When it comes to face melting DPS, minnie loose a fair bit of their damage in falloff. Laser users loose a slight bit of DPS to tracking. (Heavy pulse II has a based tracking of 0.08125, AC IIs 0.1056, Heavy Neutron II's base at 0.1000.) Most pilots don't realize how long PvP combat is lasting. If a pilot has been in a fight with high DPS ships before it probably involves battleships, which really aren't that great at putting damage on anything smaller than another battleship (or a high sig radius BC). You start putting 700-1000 actual realized DPS on most ships and the reaction tends to be "WTF *pop*".
Where blasters really shine is small group combat. There you've got a tackler, hopefully some logistic and maybe EWAR support. With an engagement window in the 10-15km range, you're looking a good dps that turns into a fast melt as you close. Also, you've hopefully got somebody to get your back on the long range target, as you have theirs on the short range targets.
This of course doesn't translate well for AHACs that are trying to live outside of target pointer range and are engaging spread out targets.
When it comes to most players views of blasters there are two problems. First CCP is looking at the ultravets to gauge their effectiveness, not the 20m SP guy. Secondly, the Zealot really is perfect for it's current fleet role. The problem isn't so much that hybrids are overpowered as that the Zealot needs its sig radius nerfed. When a weapon system dominates large fleet pvp, people have this strange tendency to think that it excels at all forms of PvP. That said, while I despise Amarr, I have to admit that current game mechanics really do call for a Zealot/Drake world.
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Gah'Matar
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Posted - 2011.01.30 23:12:00 -
[82]
Originally by: nakKEDK
Tristan can take on a rifter, incursus cant.
BS.
1 solo rifter kill incursus Another one Yet another one And a solo taranis kill with Incursus Harpy too Even stupid thrasher (with T2 ACs)
Learn to fly an incursus before saying it's a crap frig.
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Deen Wispa
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.31 00:06:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Gah'Matar
Originally by: nakKEDK
Tristan can take on a rifter, incursus cant.
BS.
1 solo rifter kill incursus Another one Yet another one And a solo taranis kill with Incursus Harpy too Even stupid thrasher (with T2 ACs)
Learn to fly an incursus before saying it's a crap frig.
God..I'd love to know this guy's Incursus fitting. He's a beast. -----------------
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Gah'Matar
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Posted - 2011.01.31 01:34:00 -
[84]
Nothing fancy:
[Incursus, rails] Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II
1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I [empty rig slot]
Hobgoblin II x1
Overheat everything, keep at range 7-9km. Hope they don't outrange you. You probably outdps a rifter with barrage, if you did your approach right and never got too close, it'll work.
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2011.01.31 04:33:00 -
[85]
Quote: Is Gallente really that bad?
No. The people with poor results flying them are.
They take more skill to pilot and use than simply hitting missile hotkey, or hitting orbit 'in snug barrage kite range' with moderate prop pulsing. For some people.. doing more than this is beyond their abilities, and they will fail in a lot of ships. Then instead of these people blaming themselves, they have to pin it on something else. Where there are KMs and ratios involved.. so are blind and inflated egos.
Notice what the 'fotm' and most used ships are.. notice how they are the most forgiving and easiest ships to pilot n use.
People tend to fail at fitting.. expecting more than they should with AWU 3 or lower. Also stuck in old ways.. cookie cutters.. or simply applying a decent fit design to a particular ship, but not being able to manage it properly in combat.. and thus claiming said fit is a failure because they couldn't handle it correctly.
And for comparing.. 1v1 is a good staple. Gang v gang blob v few fleet v fleet is an irrelevent arguement from the stand point that the entire fleet make-up and the pilots in those other ships are a huge part of that equation that nets a result on a lone ship's capability in that fleet. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please. |
Zkeletonwitch
Top Secret Robot Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.31 04:34:00 -
[86]
Hybrids have been terrible for a long time, hence nobody flies Gallente anymore.
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Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.01.31 05:51:00 -
[87]
one should be training gallente for these reasons:
PVE domi/ishtar
PVP domi ishtar sentry sniper lachesis for longest range tackles in the game myrm gila/rattlesnake
a few bonus items: navy vexor - best gank for a cruiser hull in the game vexor - best L2 runner, cheapest gank boat ranis and ishkur - best in their categories but who cares
notice how most of these reasons dont include hybrid weapons. if youre not training gallente for the above reasons, might as well stop.
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space bear
Gallente Farbotz
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Posted - 2011.01.31 07:01:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Gah'Matar Nothing fancy:
[Incursus, rails] ... 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S ...
We have already agreed that gallente can still have some sort of succes at frigate level. That said, a succesfull railed fit doesnt does not exactly invalidate the point about blasters.
Originally by: Umega No. The people with poor results flying them are.
(...)
And for comparing.. 1v1 is a good staple. Gang v gang blob v few fleet v fleet is an irrelevent arguement from the stand point that the entire fleet make-up and the pilots in those other ships are a huge part of that equation that nets a result on a lone ship's capability in that fleet.
So, in a 1v1 cruiser and above fight involving two equally skilled and competent pilots, on which one would you put your bet, the blaster boat, or say, the A/C boat ? which pilot whould have the best overall chances to win ?
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2011.01.31 09:20:00 -
[89]
Originally by: space bear
Originally by: Gah'Matar Nothing fancy:
[Incursus, rails] ... 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S ...
We have already agreed that gallente can still have some sort of succes at frigate level. That said, a succesfull railed fit doesnt does not exactly invalidate the point about blasters.
Originally by: Umega No. The people with poor results flying them are.
(...)
And for comparing.. 1v1 is a good staple. Gang v gang blob v few fleet v fleet is an irrelevent arguement from the stand point that the entire fleet make-up and the pilots in those other ships are a huge part of that equation that nets a result on a lone ship's capability in that fleet.
So, in a 1v1 cruiser and above fight involving two equally skilled and competent pilots, on which one would you put your bet, the blaster boat, or say, the A/C boat ? which pilot whould have the best overall chances to win ?
What a ridiculously broad question. I don't have the slighest idea what ships nor the pilots behind them. Go ahead and conjure up some twisted scenario that's bent to what you want to have happen in this pointless arguement you're trying to produce.. and I'll make own plausible scenarios where I am right. Whoopy.
Quit while you're behind tho.. Daredevil and Taranis. So much for your blasters fail at frig level. Why do they own? Because blasters eat babies with their tiny reach T-rex hands.. there are reasons why Vindi, diemost, vigi are high on primary lists.. if you don't know why, play the game instead of playing in pretend land on the forums and eft. They **** **** up when in range.
And while I feel like unleashing EVE's hidden secrets, hurricane has worse dps in it's kite application than an hml drake has. Who knew.. people that actually play the game well and really do know the game mechanics. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.01.31 11:22:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Umega there are reasons why Vindi, diemost, vigi are high on primary lists.. if you don't know why, play the game instead of playing in pretend land on the forums and eft. They **** **** up when in range.
And while I feel like unleashing EVE's hidden secrets, hurricane has worse dps in it's kite application than an hml drake has. Who knew.. people that actually play the game well and really do know the game mechanics.
Is it because the Deimos has to go into scramble range to apply its damage, meaning that it's easy to tackle and kill it?
And your Drake vs. Hurricane example is a million miles away from being an Eve "secret".
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