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Drone Bei
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Posted - 2011.01.31 21:20:00 -
[1]
I decided to start a trial account to see how I like industry and manufacturing since I don't want to stop training on my main. I did the Industry career missions and now I'm at a loss for how to proceed. Even with Production Efficiency at 4 I can't seem to find any BPCs for sale that would actually result in profit. I am running everything through Eve Industries calculator and even full run, 50+ ME/PE BPCs still result in me losing millions of isk.
What options do I have. I'm thinking of joining a corp that will have plenty of well researched BPOs for me to get BPCs from but so far I haven't found one that will take someone so new on a trial account.
Is there any way on my own to get in to manufacturing or is the amount of skills and access to quality resources and blueprints too difficult to attain at the moment.
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Masters Pets
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Posted - 2011.01.31 23:04:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Drone Bei Even with Production Efficiency at 4
And here we have your problem. Get it to V and calculate again.
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ReclyeMe
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Posted - 2011.01.31 23:06:00 -
[3]
Try looking at some of the Ammo BPO they cheap to buy and easy to research. Buying ship BPC will cut into your margin, but you should be able to find some that can be made at a profit. Also look at joining a research alliance to get access to their Labs. I dont know the details of how they work, but you should be able to contact one and join even if you have to start your own 1 man corp.
Also did you look at some of the rig BPO they dont cost a lot and you can turn a profit off a lot of them. Anyway good luck and I am sure someone will come along soon with a better answer for ya.
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Xearal
Minmatar SOL Industries Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.01 01:35:00 -
[4]
Go for smaller BPO's and join a corp with a lab, or have someone research them for you in a research corp or something. Starting out small is the way to go. I started out making Ammo ( I still do ), and am slowly expanding my product line into other things. Starting off with simple products like ammo is a good way to get to grips with industry, and to get you a base capital to continue to build upon. Efficiency 5 also tends to help. while 4 is good, 5 is better.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.02.01 02:54:00 -
[5]
Honestly, you need Production Efficiency at 5 before you can seriously think about making a profit.
I commend you for calculating your profit beforehand, though. Part of the reason prices are so low is because a lot of people don't understand basic economics and actually lose money on things they build because they make them out of "free" minerals that they mined themselves. Materials costs should always be based on market value, whether you mined it, bought it, stole it, found it, or received it as a gift.
I'd also recommend joining a corp with access to labs to make your own researched BPCs.
-----WARNING SIGNATURE BELOW-----
Originally by: CCP Ginger Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
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Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
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Posted - 2011.02.01 03:38:00 -
[6]
You should totally mine all the minerals yourself, then they will be FREE, do the calculations with 0 cost on all your minerals and see what kind of profit there is. Why don't more people understand this? --------------------------------------------
Quote: EVE-Online... Too rough for ya? Don't like it? GTFO...
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Vorwind
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Posted - 2011.02.01 04:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts You should totally mine all the minerals yourself, then they will be FREE, do the calculations with 0 cost on all your minerals and see what kind of profit there is. Why don't more people understand this?
Because even "time" has a value.
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Drone Bei
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Posted - 2011.02.01 04:28:00 -
[8]
I understand that in Eve going to level 5 in a skill is generally required for a lot of stuff, but Production efficiency only decreases the materials needed for manufacturing by 4$ right? The difference of 4% will not realistically change my situation. Yes 4% might move me from -3% profit to 1% profit on my investment, but if I'm only making a pittance on what I invest, I'm better off spending my time elsewhere whereas 4% moving from 10 to 14% profit is where it matters. At this point I'm having difficulty finding things to manufacture that even make a profit so the 4% won't change much. Is that logical or is there a flaw in my thinking?
I'm just want to know if I still have a bunch to do before I can get to 10% or more profit where the move from lvl 4 to lvl 5 PE matters.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.
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Posted - 2011.02.01 04:50:00 -
[9]
Alot of BPC are for invention
Originally by: Rheeii
Whats he going to be probing with CORE probes?
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Kestrix
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Posted - 2011.02.01 05:02:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kyra Felann Honestly, you need Production Efficiency at 5 before you can seriously think about making a profit.
I commend you for calculating your profit beforehand, though. Part of the reason prices are so low is because a lot of people don't understand basic economics and actually lose money on things they build because they make them out of "free" minerals that they mined themselves. Materials costs should always be based on market value, whether you mined it, bought it, stole it, found it, or received it as a gift.
I'd also recommend joining a corp with access to labs to make your own researched BPCs.
This is not strictly true. If I decide to build a space ship and I have 100 mill ISK in my wallet, I buy a BPC for 1 million ISK, mine the minerals, and buy the minerals I can't mine in hi sec for 10 mill isk the cost of the build to me is 11 million ISK I now sell the ship on the market for 30 mill ISK undercutting the market by 2 million ISK to get a quick sale I'm making 19 million ISK. People like Kyra don't seem to understand that you can become a billionaire in eve without having to wring every last isk out of a transaction!
You can of course calculate the value of every single unit of each type of mineral used in the build, factour in the cost of your BPO/POS/Research your Hulk the mining crystals, the value you attach to your time spent building whatever it is your building ect. But know this! Whilst your hammering away at your calculater trying to pin down every last isk I'll be building and selling stuff and undercutting you and still probably making a better profit due to the fact that I'm selling more stuff whilst you are waiting for your perfectly calculated items to sell.
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Drone Bei
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Posted - 2011.02.01 05:31:00 -
[11]
Why didn't I think of that, Kestrix. Of course! Find a blueprint that allows me to make 100%-200% profit! I'll just close this thread up now. Problem solved.
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Kestrix
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Posted - 2011.02.01 06:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Drone Bei Why didn't I think of that, Kestrix. Of course! Find a blueprint that allows me to make 100%-200% profit! I'll just close this thread up now. Problem solved.
Your looking at the problem the wrong way. Your saying I can't get into the market becasue the profit margin is too tight and becasue your skills are low looking at the mineral prices and the requirments on the BPC/BPO you say I can't do it. 80% of something is better than 100% of nothing!
I've made a stack of ten ships and moved them to a market hub, I've put them on the market at maybe 10% below what the average is at that time and they all sold quickly. Now you can try to play it your way and sell them at the mineral value base rate and you'll find your playing silly buggers on the market with every other player trying to do the same thing dropping your sell order price by 0.1 isk every ten mins or so. You'll sell your ships eventually and for more than me on a ship by ship basis but I'll make more isk than you becasuse I move a greater volume than you! I am able to do this becasue I look at the status of my wallet to judge if I'm making a profit or not rather than running endless and mind numbing calculations on mineral values!
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Kestrix
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Posted - 2011.02.01 06:08:00 -
[13]
The only time I botherd with the market value of minerals against the requirments of a BPO was when I was buying them in bulk to build freighters. Anything big like that then fine but with small stuff?
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Drone Bei
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Posted - 2011.02.01 06:26:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Drone Bei on 01/02/2011 06:30:27 I can't understand how you think you are making a profit then. From what I understand of your response you would rather spend 100 isk (not caring about ore prices) to make something then sell it quick for 80 isk where I want to sell it for at least 104 isk.
Profit earned = (item value) - (investment; which is based on mineral prices)
I'm sure you are probably doing missions/mining or something else so you never see that your wallet is losing isk over time due to your manufacturing. You may be selling a lot, but I can't imagine you are making profit, unless you do have some module or ship that you can make for half the price that it sells.
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Jacabon Mere
Caldari Capital Storm.
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Posted - 2011.02.01 06:54:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jacabon Mere on 01/02/2011 06:57:34 Production seems to mostly end up being semi trading for me.
Often its a way to buy cheap minerals (or use minerals i am too lazy to sell)to sell barely above what i could sell the mineral value in jita.
I get most of my minerals from buy orders in and around mission hubs for anywhere from 2 - 20% below jita sell value. and then sell them as drakes/other ships. although i have to say most of my profit from sellign a ship would be from selling the T2 mods that tend to go with it.
So pretty much, you going to have to sell your ships in out of the way mission hubs to make about 10% profit. And its all about how you value the minerals you aquire. do you value minerals you buy at the price oyu buy, or at the price you could sell them at? and how hard would it actually be to sell them compared to making a ship and selling that.
EDIT: oh, and ignore people like Kestrix, he doesn't realise that he can just sell his minerals and make 22mil instead of selling them as a drake to make 19mil. The people buyign his ships so fast are people that are reprocessing them to make things to sell for actual profits. -----------------------
Quantum Horizons is recruiting Aussies/players active around DT. Join "QH Public" for a chat and more info. Website |
pawpo
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.02.01 07:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts You should totally mine all the minerals yourself, then they will be FREE, do the calculations with 0 cost on all your minerals and see what kind of profit there is. Why don't more people understand this?
Your profit is mosty from mining minerals then. If you sell items under price of every single mineral used, then even decerased. It's OK if producing is what you like and you are happy with this "production loss" decreasing your potential "mining profit".
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Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
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Posted - 2011.02.01 07:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Drone Bei I understand that in Eve going to level 5 in a skill is generally required for a lot of stuff, but Production efficiency only decreases the materials needed for manufacturing by 4$% right? The difference of 4% will not realistically change my situation. Yes 4% might move me from -3% profit to 1% profit on my investment, but if I'm only making a pittance on what I invest, I'm better off spending my time elsewhere whereas 4% moving from 10 to 14% profit is where it matters. At this point I'm having difficulty finding things to manufacture that even make a profit so the 4% won't change much. Is that logical or is there a flaw in my thinking?
You might know, that Production Efficiency lowers the material needs by 4%, but actually you reduce the applied waste by 5%. With PE 0 you have 25% additional material needs. With PE 5 0%.
Producing a Drake with Jita prices:
Material | Price | Prod. Eff. IV | Prod. Eff. V ----------|---------|---------------|-------------- Tritanium | 2.68 | 2,578,167 | 2,455,952 Pyerite | 4.67 | 645,588 | 614,985 Mexallon | 23.43 | 177,880 | 169,448 Isogen | 70.09 | 18,424 | 17,550 Nocxium | 554.20 | 13,041 | 12,423 Zydrine | 1043.59 | 3,800 | 3,620 Megacyte | 3036.81 | 885 | 843 ==========|=========|===============|============== Total | | 29,263,991.13 | 27,876,830.68
Sales for: ISK 29,923,659.51
Income w/ PE 4: ISK 659,668.38 Income w/ PE 5: ISK 2,046,828.83 Sorry, but I don't see your problem creating income...
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Tea Partier
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Posted - 2011.02.01 08:03:00 -
[18]
I got into production and then realized that unless you really love building stuff that it's a loser's game. I did my research and I found/had a BPO that was generating a 500% profit on each item I made from it just selling to buy orders, unresearched with prod eff 4, then some joker released a website calculating the profit on each item compared to the selling price of minerals. My 3 weeks of real profit went poof.
I later moved into a WH and never looked back at manufacturing and researching when I realized that it was just cheaper to buy the stuff from an opportunity cost POV.
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Kestrix
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Posted - 2011.02.01 10:14:00 -
[19]
Drone Bei you need to understand that I mine roids/refine mission loot to get as much of the minerals I need to build whatever I want to sell. I buy and research bpo for the items that I need myself or want to sell. If a Brutix costs me 4 million isk in out of wallet expences then thats the build cost as far as I'm concernd. I don't care about the BPO cost I don't care how much it took to put up and Run a POS or the cost of the hulk/mission ship this is all ISK I've made back and then some.
What your talking about is buying 100% of the minerals off the market to build an item to re-sell on the market.
Good luck with that against people like me :P
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.02.01 10:44:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Drone Bei I decided to start a trial account to see how I like industry and manufacturing since I don't want to stop training on my main. I did the Industry career missions and now I'm at a loss for how to proceed. Even with Production Efficiency at 4 I can't seem to find any BPCs for sale that would actually result in profit. I am running everything through Eve Industries calculator and even full run, 50+ ME/PE BPCs still result in me losing millions of isk.
What options do I have. I'm thinking of joining a corp that will have plenty of well researched BPOs for me to get BPCs from but so far I haven't found one that will take someone so new on a trial account.
Is there any way on my own to get in to manufacturing or is the amount of skills and access to quality resources and blueprints too difficult to attain at the moment.
Don't sell in jita? Work out where big fights are likely to happen and move ships there?
Drakes in Jita are what, 30mil? I've seen them selling for 37mil in some locations recently.
If you easymode eve, there'll be no profit. If you put in some leg work, there's gold to be made. --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Ami Quintero
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Posted - 2011.02.01 11:27:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Ami Quintero on 01/02/2011 11:30:34
Originally by: Kestrix If a Brutix costs me 4 million isk in out of wallet expences then thats the build cost as far as I'm concernd.
The trouble with that logic is the following:-
Situation A: You mine a bunch of minerals, buy 4M minerals off the market, sell the Brutix for 20M. 16M profit!
Situation B: You mine a bunch of minerals. Sell them on the market for 18M. 18M profit!
Do you see?
Not that I mind. I'll buy your Brutix for 20M and resell it for 22M and I'll be quite happy
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Kiyirari
All Star Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.02.01 11:34:00 -
[22]
Never buy your minerals directly from the sell orders as these are marked up for what ever profit poeple can get... instead create a buy order & buy below market price this will help carve out extra profit.
Its a fundimental part of trading buy low, sell high... get some trade skills trained up 'n' grab a hauler ya gonna need it
Also find a BPO calculator... more often than not bpc are sold at an expensive amount of isk for high ME, this can be counter productive as the added value of BPC may out way minerals saved by ME level, more numbers for ya to crunch.
Revenge is my god and my guns are her angels |
Velicitia
Open Designs
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:05:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Velicitia on 01/02/2011 15:09:36
Originally by: Kestrix
Originally by: Kyra Felann Honestly, you need Production Efficiency at 5 before you can seriously think about making a profit.
I commend you for calculating your profit beforehand, though. Part of the reason prices are so low is because a lot of people don't understand basic economics and actually lose money on things they build because they make them out of "free" minerals that they mined themselves. Materials costs should always be based on market value, whether you mined it, bought it, stole it, found it, or received it as a gift.
I'd also recommend joining a corp with access to labs to make your own researched BPCs.
This is not strictly true. If I decide to build a space ship and I have 100 mill ISK in my wallet, I buy a BPC for 1 million ISK, mine the minerals, and buy the minerals I can't mine in hi sec for 10 mill isk the cost of the build to me is 11 million ISK I now sell the ship on the market for 30 mill ISK undercutting the market by 2 million ISK to get a quick sale I'm making 19 million ISK.
Let's say your widget had the below mineral requirements (at least for the stuff you were able to mine)
Trit -- 1 mil @ 2.0 isk/unit Pye -- 500k @ 4.0 isk/unit Mex -- 250k @ 28.0 isk/unit Iso -- 125k @ 60 isk/unit
so, the VALUE of your mined minerals is:
Trit -- 2m Pye -- 2m Mex -- 7m Iso -- 7.5m
TOTAL -- 18.5 million.
Total cost to produce (including your 10-run BPC) == 28.6 million per (assuming you made all 10). You sell for 30, so yeah, you still profited 1.4 million, so that's good (4.8% profit). Now, you could have sold it at the "average" price of 32 million for a profit of 3.4 million (11.8% profit).
Now, you go ahead and sell your widget for 30 million -- just keep in mind that every other manufacturer making that widget will know the production costs, and will likely snap up your undervalued stuff to make quick profits.
The proper way to do this is to "write off" the stuff you can mine as neutral (it neither causes direct profit, nor does it cause you to lose *potential* profits). These "write off" materials might slightly impact profits -- but not by that huge margin of "everything I mine costs nothing" that you are a proponent of.
For example, let's say you have 3 POS set up. Combined, they burn 3 robotics/hour. You make 3 robotics/hour from PI. YES, you *could* sell them at 60k/unit... and set buy orders that _might_ get filled for the month. So rather than taking the risk you won't have an order filled, you tweak your profit/hour calculations of "sell at 60, buy at 58 (+6k isk/hour)" to "sell at 60, buy at 60". Essentially, you can just call it a wash and the PI/POS is ISK neutral (ie that potential for an extra 1.44 mil isk/day isn't worth the risk of your POS running out of fuel, and/or you having to run an immediate buy for say 65k/unit to keep things running).
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Saelyn Akira
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:29:00 -
[24]
Say, if you mine minerals for "free" and then use them in manufacturing to create some item. Then you sell that said item under the production cost if you had bought all those minerals. You could sit there thinking "yay i just made a huge profit since those minerals are free" but surely you could have sold those minerals for more than what you made with the item. So isn't that still loosing money?
I'm not sure I quite agree with the "free minerals from mining" part. Unless someone wants to explain it.
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Velicitia
Open Designs
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:51:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Velicitia on 01/02/2011 15:51:26
Originally by: Saelyn Akira Say, if you mine minerals for "free" and then use them in manufacturing to create some item. Then you sell that said item under the production cost if you had bought all those minerals. You could sit there thinking "yay i just made a huge profit since those minerals are free" but surely you could have sold those minerals for more than what you made with the item. So isn't that still loosing money?
I'm not sure I quite agree with the "free minerals from mining" part. Unless someone wants to explain it.
The "I mined it so it's free" crowd are missing the fact that their minerals still have a VALUE (which may or may not be less than the COST on the market).
edit -- valus/cost backwards
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Rho Epsilon
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Posted - 2011.02.01 16:05:00 -
[26]
The difference in opinion is simple.
One group wants to maximize their profits. In most cases they will make more by selling the minerals.
The other side is out to maximize their enjoyment while not losing isk. They will make less than they could, but will always undercut your prices and will still, in the long run, make isk.
I enjoy manufacturing and selling finished items (and not running all over trying to sell tons of minerals to different places). I realize I am not maximizing my profit, but as stated earlier the amount of isk in my wallet keeps increasing and I'm actually having fun.
BTW, to those that talk about time having a value, they are correct. In Eve it comes to about -50 cents per hour for me as I am paying to play
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.02.01 16:21:00 -
[27]
as mentioned a few times.... a lot of people think that if they mine the minerals themselves then its all 100% profit, without considering that they could have sold the minerals raw and made more..... when confronted with their idiocracy they generally say something lame like "i play for fun, not profit"
unfortunately almost everything seems to be sold at a loss - even at prod. eff. V. the one example of making a drake for 2M profit is incorrect - just at a glance i noted that mexal is not 23 isk.... it more like 26 to 30. which account for all of the profit he stated all by itself. and on that note. buy orders are pretty much the way to go for making a profit... but ya still ought to consider the potential profit that could be made if you were to just flip the raw mats back on the market for a profit...
but there are a few items that can be made for profit. you just have take the time to research it. I suggest that you get EveHQ and learn to use its prism feature. it will fetch market prices, but be leery and also learn how to add custom prices yourself. it isn't difficult, but not exactly user friendly either.
ultimately tech 2 is where the real profit is. ofr most items you'll make a decent profit even after invention. but figuring up this profit is a bit more tricky, and finding lab slots in hisec for copying (you need BPC for invention) is pretty difficult. and getting your hands good T2 BPOs is a.... long term goal. they're hard to find and cost $$$$$.
in the end, you;ll need your own POS to really make a go of manuf.
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indianhurt
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Posted - 2011.02.01 16:27:00 -
[28]
let me try to give you some help there are several ways to make isk, it is just matter of style and investment. * I you are online and active: best way is missioning (ratting or plexing if in null sec or wormholes) probalby you already know/done that
** Isk making while offline or afk: there are several ways, some of them a) market/contracts camping, you make a research is some items that are selling well over time and try to hit those items, playing with sell/buy orders and try to manipulate (at some point) the market. You need several bills to start and always keep in mind that there is the risk to end up with huge volumes that will be difficult to sell them while getting profit. A nice area to experiment is advanced matterials buy cheap, reprocess, build something that sells better but make sure you calculate all possible costs (buy price, loss of reprocessing, cost of bulding, tax of sale order)
b) invention: a bit more complicated, you have to setup a pos, make your own bpcs, buy datacores and decryptors, calculate the success rate of the given invention, the production cost of the invented t2 item. You have to choose some good selling t2 componets and calculate the profit margin. You should make a nice excell sheet to calculate isk/hour, becouse some bpcs taking longer to get copied, and the invented t2 takes longer to get built.
c) t1 manufacturing: usually dont get good profit, but you sell your minerals faster with better margin. If you choose to buy the minerals then you pay someone else to get profit (miners f.e.)
d) research agents, mechanical engineering datacors: you spend few weeks to get standings with lvl4 agents, install mech eng project, collect datacores
try not to invest in expensive bpos, if you pay a bill for a bs bpo, you gonna need long time to repay the bpo (since you probably wont be able to resel it) a good start might be bombers, covert op cloaking devices, 1400 arties, large shield rigs, viators.
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Cyniac
Gallente Twilight Star Rangers
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Posted - 2011.02.01 16:27:00 -
[29]
I'll leave the "minerals or free or not" discussion aside - back to the OP initial situation:
In order to be good at industry it pays off to know your markets. There are BPOs out there which are cheap and will net you a tidy profit without too much work (10-20% is pretty easy to get) but you need to know your market. Not all markets are the same, not all products are the same.
There are three distinct issues you need to resolve:
1) Identifying a profitable item to work with 2) Identify a "good" source of materials to build the item 3) Identify a "good" sink to sell your item at a profit
The obvious solutions to those questions are not ever going to be the most profitable ones.
And there are many many many solutions. Which is one of the things I truly enjoy about EVE.
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Kestrix
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Posted - 2011.02.01 18:58:00 -
[30]
Ok I'll have to explain something here. Are you familer with the term Vertical integration? Google it if you don't know.
Because I provide my own ore through mining/missions I get to set my own value on it. Also I don't have to invest isk to get it. I may make a smaller margin overall but this is more than made up for in the volume that I can shift should I choose too.
By buying your ore at market value you are allowing other players to set it's value which you can't drop below and make a profit and your profits are much smaller in order to remain competative. Does this make sense? |
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