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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:06:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 02/02/2011 18:10:45 Not sure how the change in thought came about. Back in the recent past, the sentiment was that the drake was a laughable ship to meet in small gang/solo pvp because it
1. can't hold onto any targets 2. its too slow 3. if it does equip tackle/speed mod in middle it is severely gimping its tank
The only thing it could kill would be a slow target with a weaker tank, if it warps on top of it.
Basically, anything can get away from it, or if it can't get away, should be able to break it's tank. I've soloed countless drakes, both HAM and regular using a zealot of all things, and if I cannot break it? I fly away.
What's changed people's perceptions here. I don't see it.
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:09:00 -
[2]
The Drake has always been exactly as good as it is now. Well, not always--it used to be even better. But it's been exactly as good as it is now for a long time. Other things which used to be better have been nerfed in the past year or so, and now the Drake is "broken" and "good" in comparison. In time the Drake, Heavy Missiles, or something else will get nerfed such that some other ship that has been mocked for a long time will eventually become "good".
Two Shots Goonwaffe
Goonswarm Federation Official Recruiting Officer |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:15:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Two Shots The Drake has always been exactly as good as it is now. Well, not always--it used to be even better. But it's been exactly as good as it is now for a long time. Other things which used to be better have been nerfed in the past year or so, and now the Drake is "broken" and "good" in comparison. In time the Drake, Heavy Missiles, or something else will get nerfed such that some other ship that has been mocked for a long time will eventually become "good".
This is only partially true: - The Drake is just as good at small gang PVP as its always been. True. - The Drake is now much much much better vs nano ships than it has historically been (remember 0.0 damage? Never again..) to the point that it is considered the counter to nano HACs. - Nothing has really been nerfed in the past year, but projectiles have been substantially boosted. Note how there's still contentious arguments over which is better? Proof positive that the Drake was better than the Cane before. - The problem with the perception of the Drake was the people who flew it. Taking 4 SPR no tackle no propulsion Drakes into PVP is a sure way to earn a reputation as a lolcarebear.
Basically: there has never been a problem with the Drake except for the 0.0 damage to nano ships problem... and that hasn't been a problem since QR.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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price checkinho
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:17:00 -
[4]
The only thing that has changed about the drake is metagamers perception of it.
Thats all it takes in any game.
People play 2 10 offsuit in poker just because Doyle did.
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Plus 1
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:18:00 -
[5]
Mostly it's just because people got less stupid.
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:20:00 -
[6]
The only thing that's changed people's perspective is the successful campaign by the goons using Drake blobs. If they had chosen a different ship and been just as successful, that ship would still be what it was, and people would still think it was better than it was.
Also, Mike712's BC fit. Proven that a Drake can be an ok solo boat. _____________________________________ Real men corpse tank. |
Ephemeron
BeerTia Maniacs
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:42:00 -
[7]
It happened right after CCP split 1 rig size class into 3 rig size classes
The the price of field extender rigs dropped from 20 mil to 3 mil, suddenly Drakes
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Altaica Amur
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:45:00 -
[8]
Quote: The only thing that's changed people's perspective is the successful campaign by the goons using Drake blobs. If they had chosen a different ship and been just as successful, that ship would still be what it was, and people would still think it was better than it was.
Also, Mike712's BC fit. Proven that a Drake can be an ok solo boat.
After triumverate, Stainwagon and who knows who else? Goons didn't start the drake blob, they added the maelstrom to it. :)
I'm less sure about smaller gangs and solo pvp for the drake but I do know that for mid-sized gangs or blobs the drake has changed a lot less then the context it was in. For a while there has been a slow shift towards using the dedicated logistics boats more and more and that along with the end of the AoE DD allowed both these smaller ship classes to survive that when in blob form. The drake + logistics has a ton of synergy, add in some tackle boats and you can take on many gangs at equal or lesser numbers without great risk of loss.
With regards to how you feel going after a random drake now vs earlier, yeah it's a lot more dangerous since there's a lot more chance they'll be carrying a point and mwd and in spite of that weakening the tank you'll -still- have more ehp then a cane, trying to stack the strength of the drake's tank was the death of the drake in the past now that people have gotten over that and buffer-fit, it's fine.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:57:00 -
[9]
There was also the perception that carriers/supercarriers were everywhere and were eating battleships left right and centre, and since that meant that fewer battleships were around, the natural predator of the Drake was gone as well. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.02 19:02:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Not sure how the change in thought came about. Back in the recent past, the sentiment was that the drake was a laughable ship to meet in small gang/solo pvp because it
1. can't hold onto any targets 2. its too slow 3. if it does equip tackle/speed mod in middle it is severely gimping its tank
1. Not sure what they mean by that, because any ship with a scram can hold a target. 2. 2 nanos + 2 BCU in the low mitigates that, a bit. 3. You can put a scram/point + 2 webs on a Drake and get the same tank as a Hurricane.
Quote: What's changed people's perceptions here. I don't see it.
CCP acknowledging a massive growth in the numbers of Drake Armies and the effect it has on server performance a few months back. The reason more people used Drake Armies was because they were a reasonable counter to AHACs, which handily destroyed long-range BSes. The same BSes that previously made the Drake such a jokeboat in fleet PvP.
(circle of life, etc)
As for solo/small gang, I think it was Endless Subversion's PvP videos (Drake 3.0?) in which he poo-poos on quite a number Vagabonds in a Drake.
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Ephemeron
BeerTia Maniacs
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Posted - 2011.02.02 19:16:00 -
[11]
What's changed is not people's perception.
The price of fitting most popular setups dropped from 60 mil to 10 mil, after the rig split.
50 mil difference. It is half of total cost after insurance payout. The price of PvP Drakes was halved. How can that be ignored? gotta be blind not to see it.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2011.02.02 20:19:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 02/02/2011 20:20:14
Originally by: Ephemeron What's changed is not people's perception.
The price of fitting most popular setups dropped from 60 mil to 10 mil, after the rig split.
50 mil difference. It is half of total cost after insurance payout. The price of PvP Drakes was halved. How can that be ignored? gotta be blind not to see it.
Was the price only halved on PvP Drakes? Was it not halved on PvP this ship, or PvP that ship too?
EDIT:
Originally by: Liang Nuren
-Liang
You're still half asian, but you've got a rounder face now.
Sorry, this was the first thing that popped into mind when skimming the thread.
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Stuart Price
Caldari FLA5HY RED The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.02.02 20:31:00 -
[13]
HAM Drake
83k EHP (94k if you overload the invuls) with a passive tank of 149 (175) at peak to reduce incoming damage Up to 658 dps (760 if you overload the launchers) and the ability to choose damage type to exploit resistance holes (for less paper dps, but very often more actual)
All with a scram and web
And a shade over 1km/s speed on the MWD (almost 1500 overloaded)
Also comes with a small neut, for the lols
Yeah, it's definitely lacking. Then there's the current fit de jour - the Nanodrake which is also terrible...
BONUS ROUND: Falcon pilots just LOVE it when a FoF spewing Nanodrake bumps him all over space while chewing his face off.
Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.02.02 20:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Stuart Price HAM Drake
83k EHP (94k if you overload the invuls) with a passive tank of 149 (175) at peak to reduce incoming damage Up to 658 dps (760 if you overload the launchers) and the ability to choose damage type to exploit resistance holes (for less paper dps, but very often more actual)
All with a scram and web
And a shade over 1km/s speed on the MWD (almost 1500 overloaded)
Also comes with a small neut, for the lols
Yeah, it's definitely lacking. Then there's the current fit de jour - the Nanodrake which is also terrible...
BONUS ROUND: Falcon pilots just LOVE it when a FoF spewing Nanodrake bumps him all over space while chewing his face off.
I flew a t2 fitted HAM drake in 2007 but it's a pretty awful ship with a mwd, scram and web.
Here's why.
EM hole and agility of a brick. Take away one of the tackle mods, you can plug the em hole somewhat, but you aren't going to hold down anyone. Face it.
The Drake isn't really that good for solo/small gangs, or if you think it is, you haven't really flown turret/armor tanking ships very much.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.02.02 20:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Liang Nuren
-Liang
You're still half asian, but you've got a rounder face now.
Haha, yeah. That's kinda the look I was going for - softer asian features on a more realistic (read: not attempted supermodel) face. I think I did a fairly reasonable job of portraying a fairly friendly open person... Hesperius says Liang bakes cookies.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Stuart Price
Caldari FLA5HY RED The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.02.02 20:50:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Stuart Price on 02/02/2011 20:52:31
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: Stuart Price HAM Drake
83k EHP (94k if you overload the invuls) with a passive tank of 149 (175) at peak to reduce incoming damage Up to 658 dps (760 if you overload the launchers) and the ability to choose damage type to exploit resistance holes (for less paper dps, but very often more actual)
All with a scram and web
And a shade over 1km/s speed on the MWD (almost 1500 overloaded)
Also comes with a small neut, for the lols
Yeah, it's definitely lacking. Then there's the current fit de jour - the Nanodrake which is also terrible...
BONUS ROUND: Falcon pilots just LOVE it when a FoF spewing Nanodrake bumps him all over space while chewing his face off.
I flew a t2 fitted HAM drake in 2007 but it's a pretty awful ship with a mwd, scram and web.
Here's why.
EM hole and agility of a brick. Take away one of the tackle mods, you can plug the em hole somewhat, but you aren't going to hold down anyone. Face it.
The Drake isn't really that good for solo/small gangs, or if you think it is, you haven't really flown turret/armor tanking ships very much.
That'll be how I killed laser ships and entire small gangs with it, solo. I'm by no means alone, there are FAR better Drake pilots around than I (Endless Subversion and Gypsio III to name two I've fought personally).
It does indeed have an EM hole, but 66% isn't terrible by any means. Agility of a brick? Really? Only the nano 'cane betters it (it has the SAME AGILITY until you factor in the nano mods) amongst the other BC's when fully fitted and that can't outfight a HAM Drake (it can leave whenever it wants though, unless it screws up and gets webbed). I still rate as the best all round BC for direct combat and I've flown all of 'em. I currently fly a nanocane because I'm a massive nano*** but when **** goes down and I can't find a BS? I reach for the Drake. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2011.02.02 20:50:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 02/02/2011 20:55:36
Quote: 1. can't hold onto any targets
Sure it can. Last i checked Eve allowed me to fit tackle to my drake.
Quote: 2. its too slow
- Its not slower than a BS. - Its on par or faster than a plated/ armor rigged armor tanked BC depending on how many plates/ armor rigs you put on it.
Quote: 3. if it does equip tackle/speed mod in middle it is severely gimping its tank
DPS setup: I can get 85k EHP omni, 525 dps ( with warrior IIs), MWD( 1038 m/s), and a point. No implants. Tank/Speed setup: I can get 90k EHP omni, 477 dps( with warrior IIs), MWD, ( 1136 m/s), and a point. No implants.
how much tank do you want?
Quote: Basically, anything can get away from it, or if it can't get away, should be able to break it's tank. I've soloed countless drakes, both HAM and regular using a zealot of all things, and if I cannot break it? I fly away.
- it is pretty much given that a cruiser is going to be faster than a BC. However if you find someone with a 2 point you would be screwed in getting away
- It is not the ship but the fittings/skills that really matter. A drake can kill a zealot. A zealot can kill a drake. It really depends on the fittings of both ships. Obviously you had a superior fit/skill/ experience.
I can kill stuff in hawk, out of all things. It is all in how you fit it and how they fit it.
Edit to add: My drake builds have no EM hole. In fact EM resist is standard at 78% on the second fit and in the low to mid 70s on the first fit. I will never understand why people insist on not plugging the EM hole when EM is shot by the two most popular pvp races as a primary damage type. That is just epicfail.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.02.02 21:08:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Stuart Price Edited by: Stuart Price on 02/02/2011 20:52:31
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: Stuart Price HAM Drake
83k EHP (94k if you overload the invuls) with a passive tank of 149 (175) at peak to reduce incoming damage Up to 658 dps (760 if you overload the launchers) and the ability to choose damage type to exploit resistance holes (for less paper dps, but very often more actual)
All with a scram and web
And a shade over 1km/s speed on the MWD (almost 1500 overloaded)
Also comes with a small neut, for the lols
Yeah, it's definitely lacking. Then there's the current fit de jour - the Nanodrake which is also terrible...
BONUS ROUND: Falcon pilots just LOVE it when a FoF spewing Nanodrake bumps him all over space while chewing his face off.
I flew a t2 fitted HAM drake in 2007 but it's a pretty awful ship with a mwd, scram and web.
Here's why.
EM hole and agility of a brick. Take away one of the tackle mods, you can plug the em hole somewhat, but you aren't going to hold down anyone. Face it.
The Drake isn't really that good for solo/small gangs, or if you think it is, you haven't really flown turret/armor tanking ships very much.
That'll be how I killed laser ships and entire small gangs with it, solo. I'm by no means alone, there are FAR better Drake pilots around than I (Endless Subversion and Gypsio III to name two I've fought personally).
It does indeed have an EM hole, but 66% isn't terrible by any means. Agility of a brick? Really? Only the nano 'cane betters it (it has the SAME AGILITY until you factor in the nano mods) amongst the other BC's when fully fitted and that can't outfight a HAM Drake (it can leave whenever it wants though, unless it screws up and gets webbed). I still rate as the best all round BC for direct combat and I've flown all of 'em. I currently fly a nanocane because I'm a massive nano*** but when **** goes down and I can't find a BS? I reach for the Drake.
Aye, if it has to be BC then it's a hurricane for me, otherwise, it'll be command ship or hac or BS. The BC platform just seems like cannon fodder, and is limited. (if you are a highly skilled char)
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.02.02 21:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Liang Nuren QR
pretty much that.
Originally by: Ephemeron It happened right after CCP split 1 rig size class into 3 rig size classes
The the price of field extender rigs dropped from 20 mil to 3 mil, suddenly Drakes
you really don't like that
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.02.02 21:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 02/02/2011 18:10:45 Not sure how the change in thought came about. Back in the recent past, the sentiment was that the drake was a laughable ship to meet in small gang/solo pvp
People were idiots, to be frank. Drake has been good for 3-4 years at least (as long as I have played). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
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Posted - 2011.02.02 22:23:00 -
[21]
The Drake has no EM hole...the Drake has an EM weakness, simply cause it's a shield tanker... With just an DC II the Drake actually has 3 times the resists other buffer shield BCs get, so...
Drakes became popular even before the rig changes, when ppl realized that you could skip the total passive PvE logic of 3x LSEs and no tackle etc...
The HML Fury and faction ammo simply rocks + kinetic bonuses, to a point that the HAM versions of the Drake are considered obsolete. 500-530 DPS are not considered much and have been smacked by ppl worshiping the EFT figures on 3 gyro 425 canes and gank-brutixes etc, which are great, but they fail to much the dmg projection of the HML drake.
The ships that can solo proper drakes are pretty limited actually, and drake's main problem is keeping their targets into the fight. No, web/scram is not that good in a HML drake - what's the point of having all this range if you are to fight within scram range anyways, and how many stuff will you be able to tackle "solo" ?
On the good side for the Drake, people flying it out there value too much it's tank and dmg projection, and very often fail-fit it and/or do very lousy piloting. Just like the Dramiel, it's success fools ppl to believing they are automatically great when piloting it, forgetting about the real critical factors.
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Ephemeron
BeerTia Maniacs
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Posted - 2011.02.02 22:30:00 -
[22]
After thinking about it some more, I realize that The Great Nano Nerf helped Drake as well. It helped all missile users.
Before the Nano nerf, ships used to be much faster, and missile damage is very poor at high speed. Turrets also suffered, just not as much as missiles. In addition to that, before nano nerf you needed both web and disruptor to tackle someone proper, 2 medium slots. Nowadays, it's enough to have just disruptor or just scrambler. That's 1 free mid slot for extra tanking power on Drake.
Recently I flew a bunch of Drakes on my alt and I have found a single Warp Scrambler to be satisfactory for holding targets. That just wouldn't be effective before nano nerf.
And lastly, nano nerf was followed by agility boost, which made the brick-like Drake more agile and fun to fly.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.02.02 22:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ephemeron After thinking about it some more, I realize that The Great Nano Nerf helped Drake as well. It helped all missile users.
Before the Nano nerf, ships used to be much faster, and missile damage is very poor at high speed. Turrets also suffered, just not as much as missiles. In addition to that, before nano nerf you needed both web and disruptor to tackle someone proper, 2 medium slots. Nowadays, it's enough to have just disruptor or just scrambler. That's 1 free mid slot for extra tanking power on Drake.
Recently I flew a bunch of Drakes on my alt and I have found a single Warp Scrambler to be satisfactory for holding targets. That just wouldn't be effective before nano nerf.
And lastly, nano nerf was followed by agility boost, which made the brick-like Drake more agile and fun to fly.
I haven't flown one since before the agility boost. I should find out if it's made it more fun to fly. I just remember it being so god damned SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW, i lost so many targets with it, that i eventually cross-trained, back in 07, yes, even then I was flying the standard ham drake setup. Didn't like it.
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Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
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Posted - 2011.02.02 22:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ephemeron Recently I flew a bunch of Drakes on my alt and I have found a single Warp Scrambler to be satisfactory for holding targets. That just wouldn't be effective before nano nerf.
Actually before the nano nerf, scrams would not kill ur MWD abilities and thus it was used only by frigate pilots for CPU/cap benefits (and maybe for tackling that stabbed industrial or sth), so you are comparing apples with oranges...
Also it's a different think talking about initial tackle and scram being your only tackle, and talking about fleet roams, where you have a bit more leisure time to move ontop of the target as a heavy tackler, after your fleet's HACs/Inties/Dictors nailed the initial tackle for you.
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Chuc Morris
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Posted - 2011.02.02 23:14:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Chuc Morris on 02/02/2011 23:16:24
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Not sure how the change in thought came about. Back in the recent past, the sentiment was that the drake was a laughable ship to meet in small gang/solo pvp because it
1. can't hold onto any targets 2. its too slow 3. if it does equip tackle/speed mod in middle it is severely gimping its tank
The only thing it could kill would be a slow target with a weaker tank, if it warps on top of it.
Basically, anything can get away from it, or if it can't get away, should be able to break it's tank. I've soloed countless drakes, both HAM and regular using a zealot of all things, and if I cannot break it? I fly away.
What's changed people's perceptions here. I don't see it.
You must understand that in the game's pvp there is no other point than the numbers. Whatever can:
Hit at any engagement range Do good dmg Has good EHP Easy to rep/remote Can carry some drones Cheap fit Easy training
Is the OP sytem to pvp in the game, and at this game drakes are good, but take a single one and go out pvp with you'll see how longer it will take you to get asskicked.
Whenever or whatever game is about numbers you have lots of choices but you will mostly tun around the points just above.
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2011.02.02 23:41:00 -
[26]
- Probing changes, conformed common sniping ranges closer towards 100km.
- Recon changes, further cemented Logistics use and conformed engagement ranges.
- Bomber changes, broke up RRBS dominance in favour of buffer-logistics.
- Titan and Motherships changes, further reduced BS dominance.
- Insurance changes, final staple of BS dominance reduction.
- Rig changes, vastly improved affordable use of buffer rigs over resistance rigs.
- Nano changes, along with missile accuracy equation overhaul.
- HIC introduction, alleviated some tackle issues within BC weight bracket.
Most of these were positive changes in other regards, but definately all helped to reinvent the use of the Drake. Then add trends ontop of that. Personally, i still belive the bigger issue is blobbing and not the Drake. Nerf blobs.
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.02.02 23:42:00 -
[27]
The drake is good because it is cheap, it can spam out alot of missiles, and it can tank alot of damage.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.02.03 00:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Noisrevbus
- Probing changes, conformed common sniping ranges closer towards 100km.
- Recon changes, further cemented Logistics use and conformed engagement ranges.
- Bomber changes, broke up RRBS dominance in favour of buffer-logistics.
- Titan and Motherships changes, further reduced BS dominance.
- Insurance changes, final staple of BS dominance reduction.
- Rig changes, vastly improved affordable use of buffer rigs over resistance rigs.
- Nano changes, along with missile accuracy equation overhaul.
- HIC introduction, alleviated some tackle issues within BC weight bracket.
Most of these were positive changes in other regards, but definately all helped to reinvent the use of the Drake. Then add trends ontop of that. Personally, i still belive the bigger issue is blobbing and not the Drake. Nerf blobs.
These points make sense.
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Nanferr
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Posted - 2011.02.03 02:24:00 -
[29]
The reason drake is good is simple
People start to realise that
1) Solo pvp always gets dominated by blobs
2) Small gangs always gets dominated by blobs
In short, only stupid and masochistic people who want to kill industrialists and the greater fools solo pvp/small gang pvp.
That means, only ship classes that are good at blobbing, are considered good.
Medium turrets arent good for blobbing. Artillery/beam/rails all have inferior dps and range.
Only thing left is heavy missiles, able to project damage to 80km with sebo's, decent dps, a good tank, a world where "midslot tackle" are useless, and target painters and sebo dominates the game
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.02.03 03:42:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nanferr The reason drake is good is simple
People start to realise that
1) Solo pvp always gets dominated by blobs
2) Small gangs always gets dominated by blobs
In short, only stupid and masochistic people who want to kill industrialists and the greater fools solo pvp/small gang pvp.
That means, only ship classes that are good at blobbing, are considered good.
Medium turrets arent good for blobbing. Artillery/beam/rails all have inferior dps and range.
Only thing left is heavy missiles, able to project damage to 80km with sebo's, decent dps, a good tank, a world where "midslot tackle" are useless, and target painters and sebo dominates the game
nah
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