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Ganandorf
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Posted - 2011.02.04 13:41:00 -
[1]
So i keep seeing people advertise their t3 mission ships as unprobable and running lvl 5's in, but I don't see how the t3's are unprobable. Can anyone enlighten me?
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Trracer
Space Shipping Group
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Posted - 2011.02.04 13:46:00 -
[2]
Check out the different subsystems.
Either you are for or against us, there simply is no other way |
GyokZoli
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.04 13:50:00 -
[3]
Edited by: GyokZoli on 04/02/2011 13:51:46
Originally by: Ganandorf So i keep seeing people advertise their t3 mission ships as unprobable and running lvl 5's in, but I don't see how the t3's are unprobable. Can anyone enlighten me?
It all depends on the sensor strength / signature radius ratio. But honestly I don't know how anyone can make it level 5 proof since due to the heavy neuting, you need a massive passive tank which skyrockets your signature radius (that's why I don't use fury ammo in this one). I've ran a few level 4 missions in lowsec with a similar fit like this, but wasn't really effective since I also had to use a covert subsystem due to the heavy pirate traffic.
[Tengu, Unprobable] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Pith B-Type Ballistic Deflection Field Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
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Ganandorf
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Posted - 2011.02.04 13:51:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Trracer Check out the different subsystems.
I checked all the bonuses. Now maybe there's a game mechanic I'm unaware of but I didn't read "Immune to probing" or anything close to that described in any of the ship bonuses.
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GyokZoli
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.04 13:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ganandorf
Originally by: Trracer Check out the different subsystems.
I checked all the bonuses. Now maybe there's a game mechanic I'm unaware of but I didn't read "Immune to probing" or anything close to that described in any of the ship bonuses.
It's not a T3 specialty, you can make any - well, almost any - ship unprobable. Your sensor strength / signature radius ratio must be higher than 1.1 If I remember the exact number correctly.
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Ganandorf
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Posted - 2011.02.04 14:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: GyokZoli Edited by: GyokZoli on 04/02/2011 14:10:18
Originally by: Ganandorf
Originally by: Trracer Check out the different subsystems.
I checked all the bonuses. Now maybe there's a game mechanic I'm unaware of but I didn't read "Immune to probing" or anything close to that described in any of the ship bonuses.
It's not a T3 specialty, you can make any - well, almost any - ship unprobable. Your sensor strength / signature radius ratio must be higher than 1.1 If I remember the exact number correctly.
Ok, I just found the correct formula here:
* To be unscannable the Signature radius/Sensor strength needs to be < 1.08.
alright i guess that'll make it rather impossible to field a good enough tank for lvl 5's heh, ty anyway
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Trracer
Space Shipping Group
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Posted - 2011.02.04 14:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ganandorf
Originally by: Trracer Check out the different subsystems.
I checked all the bonuses. Now maybe there's a game mechanic I'm unaware of but I didn't read "Immune to probing" or anything close to that described in any of the ship bonuses.
Yeah, sorry. I mixed it up with the interdiction nullification.
Either you are for or against us, there simply is no other way |
Cambarus
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.02.04 18:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Trracer
Originally by: Ganandorf
Originally by: Trracer Check out the different subsystems.
I checked all the bonuses. Now maybe there's a game mechanic I'm unaware of but I didn't read "Immune to probing" or anything close to that described in any of the ship bonuses.
Yeah, sorry. I mixed it up with the interdiction nullification.
Well your post wasn't exactly wrong, it IS a subsystem that lets certain t3s run unprobeable with ease )gives 20% to sensor strength per lvl IIRC) |
Captain Bevier
screaming skulls Fear.
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Posted - 2011.02.05 11:13:00 -
[9]
You can run lvl 5s in an unprobable tengu, but you need a scimitar/basalisk thats also unprobable. Think this may require the logi to fit remote ECCM so tengu can fit enough passive resists to tank it with the RR's.
(worth a look on EFT or whatever to see what would work best)
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NoNah
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Posted - 2011.02.05 11:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Captain Bevier You can run lvl 5s in an unprobable tengu, but you need a scimitar/basalisk thats also unprobable. Think this may require the logi to fit remote ECCM so tengu can fit enough passive resists to tank it with the RR's.
(worth a look on EFT or whatever to see what would work best)
Seeing how a tengu can easily run a level 5 on it's own if not unprobable, and a stealth bomber can run 3-4 remote eccms while staying unprobable. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 82213
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Nanferr
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Posted - 2011.02.05 12:58:00 -
[11]
in a tengu, u can only choose two out of three
TANK GANK UNPROBEABLE
A good combination is tank+unprobeable AND a gank+unprobeable tengu, but isk/hour is divided. An example of tank+unprobeable fit is
[Tengu, New Setup 3] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Pithum A-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier Pithum A-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Medium Core Defence Field Purger II Medium Core Defence Field Purger II Medium Core Defence Field Purger II
Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
2.5k dps tank vs gurista with kineticx2 1k dps tank vs angel with explosion x2 1k dps tank vs amarr/bloodraider/sansha with EM x2 1.8k dps tank vs serpentis/gal/merca with kinetic-heat 800 dps tank vs minmatar with explosion-em 1.8k dps tank vs gallente with kinetic-heat
Then you play with a normal tank-unprobeable, double ECCM+cap boosted tengu which is faster then logi-tengu
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.02.05 13:13:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Aamrr on 05/02/2011 13:14:07 First of all, that ship isn't unprobeable. It has a sigRad/senStr ratio of 1.904, well above the 1.08 barrier.
That said, how exactly do you intend to keep those midslot ECCM modules running under level 5 energy neut pressure?
Edit: I stand corrected, a full grade talon set will get this thing to unprobeability, but only since the latest expansion. Prior to that, it was bugged.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2011.02.05 13:24:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 05/02/2011 13:14:07 First of all, that ship isn't unprobeable. It has a sigRad/senStr ratio of 1.904, well above the 1.08 barrier.
That said, how exactly do you intend to keep those midslot ECCM modules running under level 5 energy neut pressure?
Edit: I stand corrected, a full grade talon set will get this thing to unprobeability, but only since the latest expansion. Prior to that, it was bugged.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was only LG implants that didn't work with the dissolution sequencer, the HG worked fine. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 240589
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.02.05 13:35:00 -
[14]
*shrugs* That might well be the case. I just heard that ECCM implants were bugged. I'll trust you on it.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.05 14:39:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Ranka Mei on 05/02/2011 14:40:12
Originally by: Nanferr in a tengu, u can only choose two out of three
TANK GANK UNPROBEABLE
A good combination is tank+unprobeable AND a gank+unprobeable tengu, but isk/hour is divided. An example of tank+unprobeable fit is
[Tengu, New Setup 3] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Pithum A-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier Pithum A-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Medium Core Defence Field Purger II Medium Core Defence Field Purger II Medium Core Defence Field Purger II
Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
No offense, but that has got to be one of the worst Tengu loadouts I've ever seen. It's got zero DPS mod/rig. And the moment I saw the first Large Shield Extender II, I knew you have never given unprobeability any serious thought, as shield extenders (kinda like the name suggests) increase your ship's sig significantly; as do the 3x shield rigs, btw, in total yielding a whopping 239m sig!
Now, let me give you an example of an unprobeable, cap-stable Tengu (see below). It's not necessarily good for WH's (in fact, it's not); but this is just in illustration of the minimal requirements for being unprobeable, with just 2x 'Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I' needed in mods. It only uses 3x extra Talons (also see below) to get a sigrad/sensor-str (150/148) ratio of 1.01 -- still well below the required < 1.08.
[Tengu, Unprobable (minimal)] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Capacitor Flux Coil II
Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Pith X-Type Photon Scattering Field Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Using these implants:
Slot 1: -- Slot 1: Talon Beta Slot 1: -- Slot 1: Talon Delta Slot 1: Talon Epsilon Slot 6: Inherent Implants 'Squire' CR8 Slot 7: Zainou 'Snapshot' ZMH2000 Slot 8: Inherent Implants 'Squire' CC8 Slot 9: Zainou 'Deadeye' ZMS1000 Slot 10: Zainou 'Deadeye' ZMM1000 --
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NoNah
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Posted - 2011.02.05 15:22:00 -
[16]
assuming the task at hand is still running level 5's using extenders an purgers isn't necessarily a bad idea. Relying on cap recharge however is generally just that. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 134286
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Nanferr
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Posted - 2011.02.05 16:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ranka Mei Edited by: Ranka Mei on 05/02/2011 14:40:12
Originally by: Nanferr in a tengu, u can only choose two out of three
TANK GANK UNPROBEABLE
A good combination is tank+unprobeable AND a gank+unprobeable tengu, but isk/hour is divided. An example of tank+unprobeable fit is
[Tengu, New Setup 3] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Pithum A-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier Pithum A-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Medium Core Defence Field Purger II Medium Core Defence Field Purger II Medium Core Defence Field Purger II
Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
No offense, but that has got to be one of the worst Tengu loadouts I've ever seen. It's got zero DPS mod/rig. And the moment I saw the first Large Shield Extender II, I knew you have never given unprobeability any serious thought, as shield extenders (kinda like the name suggests) increase your ship's sig significantly; as do the 3x shield rigs, btw, in total yielding a whopping 239m sig!
Now, let me give you an example of an unprobeable, cap-stable Tengu (see below). It's not necessarily good for WH's (in fact, it's not); but this is just in illustration of the minimal requirements for being unprobeable, with just 2x 'Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I' needed in mods. It only uses 3x extra Talons (also see below) to get a sigrad/sensor-str (150/148) ratio of 1.01 -- still well below the required < 1.08.
[Tengu, Unprobable (minimal)] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Capacitor Flux Coil II
Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Pith X-Type Photon Scattering Field Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Using these implants:
Slot 1: -- Slot 1: Talon Beta Slot 1: -- Slot 1: Talon Delta Slot 1: Talon Epsilon Slot 6: Inherent Implants 'Squire' CR8 Slot 7: Zainou 'Snapshot' ZMH2000 Slot 8: Inherent Implants 'Squire' CC8 Slot 9: Zainou 'Deadeye' ZMS1000 Slot 10: Zainou 'Deadeye' ZMM1000
your fit wont survive the neuts. Its for lv 5
two ECCM's, good skills, and high grade talon will make it unprobeable, despite rigs and LSE. 3rd LSE is not viable.
The biggest problem isnt gank, since its a tank+unprobeable setup, but its the cap, where being unprobeable with ECCM while being neut'd is probably very difficult.
Its a good idea to stick with a Drake, and the gank tengu should be aware to warp out on time.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.05 23:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nanferr
your fit wont survive the neuts. Its for lv 5
two ECCM's, good skills, and high grade talon will make it unprobeable, despite rigs and LSE. 3rd LSE is not viable.
I stand corrected, too. My bad. Indeed, against what I expected, with a full Talon set you can actually make it (1,081); though you're cutting it extremely close. :)
Quote:
The biggest problem isnt gank, since its a tank+unprobeable setup, but its the cap, where being unprobeable with ECCM while being neut'd is probably very difficult.
Yeah, the Gravimetric Backup Arrays can help, but you need more of them, of course, to get the same result.
I still don't see where you're gonna get your DPS from in such a setup, though. Merely surviving a lv V is not enough. Maybe a ship like the Rattlesnake is just more suited for lv V's than a Tengu, as the latter has its bonusses for shield boosting, and just isn't built for passive tanking. --
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Agrippina
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Posted - 2011.02.06 06:19:00 -
[19]
Worth noting that Backup arrays give diminishing returns, also is it really worth the effort that it takes for an unprobable tengu to complete a level 5?
I'm not saying it's impossible but looking at the setups so far it would what take looks to be a very long time to complete. Surely low or null sec would give far better returns as neutralizing is not an issue?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.02.06 13:43:00 -
[20]
I believe the motivation is to get something that can tank the site so that you can bring in something else that actually has the damage to do the job.
And in such an event, that "something else" will have the capacitor to run projected ECCM, anyway -- so I'm not sure why we're putting all this effort into getting the ship's to be unscannable on their own. It's ludicrously expensive and absolutely devastating on their passive tank.
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Pac SubCom
True Creation The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2011.02.06 16:27:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 06/02/2011 16:29:17 I remember a time when there were no scanning probes in the game at all. Still people could be found and ganked just with the use of the directional scanner. Just don't feel too safe alone in the dark out there, you "unprobable" t3 pilots. --------------- ∞ TQFE
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.02.06 16:36:00 -
[22]
Considering the amount of time that it takes to find someone through only the use of the directional scanner, I'm pretty sure this isn't a concern.
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Pac SubCom
True Creation The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2011.02.06 16:47:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 06/02/2011 16:47:12 That depends on your level of experience and routine. A mission takes enough time to find you. There might still be people like that out there. --------------- ∞ TQFE
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.02.06 17:07:00 -
[24]
If it makes you feel like a 1337-pro PvPer to brag about that on forums, more power to you.
Keep up with the high quality posting, 0rphanage! You'll be a real alliance some day!
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Mer'Kaba
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Posted - 2011.02.14 13:59:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mer''Kaba on 14/02/2011 13:59:28 Hey all, listen. I was told today that no ship is unprobable like this any longer and that it was addressed and fixed two or so patches ago.
Before I go through the trouble of training for this can someone seriously test this or have some undeniable proof that it still works? (ie try to probe out a friend in one of these unprobable T3s).
I respect my contact, it's possible he's mistaken, but I'd like some better information before I tell him he's wrong :)
Thanks a ton |
XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.14 14:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mer'Kaba Edited by: Mer''Kaba on 14/02/2011 13:59:28 Hey all, listen. I was told today that no ship is unprobable like this any longer and that it was addressed and fixed two or so patches ago.
Before I go through the trouble of training for this can someone seriously test this or have some undeniable proof that it still works? (ie try to probe out a friend in one of these unprobable T3s).
I respect my contact, it's possible he's mistaken, but I'd like some better information before I tell him he's wrong :)
Thanks a ton
Yeah he's either mistaken or lying to you.
Unprobable setups are very much alive.
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Cambarus
Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker
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Posted - 2011.02.14 23:09:00 -
[27]
Dual unprobeable tengus work well, at least in theory, haven't had a chance to try this setup out yet but the numbers look good, taken from another thread:
Originally by: Cambarus
The fit can be found HERE
Though I am using a separate tengu to give bonuses the stats without the leadership alt are still workable: 1700 DPS kin/therm tank with a sig radius of 165 and a sensor strength of 164. The fit I originally had uploaded was under the assumption that the unprobable formula was sig radius * 1.08 < sensor strength, though I've since been told that it's sig radius < sensor strength * 1.08, so the fit should still be unprobable.
Note that since neuting towers/NPCs tend to stay on one guy, as long as you use passive hardeners you can get away with running neut-heavy missions, just be quick to align/warp out and back if the other guy pulls any aggro, kill scramming frigs first etc.
Reasonable DPS while being able to tank on either tengu (note that the pic there shows 2, but the setup described is using 2X the setup on the left) |
Mer'Kaba
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Posted - 2011.02.15 14:36:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Mer''Kaba on 15/02/2011 14:42:01 *sigh* my friend is still claiming that he can scan down any ship not cloaked. the cloaks are not up on these set-ups right? this is while flying/fighting a mission with cloak down?
Anyway, is this 'un-probable' status against someone with all L5 skills and best ship for probe + best probes and implants?
for whatever reason he seems really ticked off that I keep asking him about this topic.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.15 15:25:00 -
[29]
Quote: Edited by: Mer''Kaba on 15/02/2011 14:42:01 *sigh* my friend is still claiming that he can scan down any ship not cloaked. the cloaks are not up on these set-ups right? this is while flying/fighting a mission with cloak down?
Cloaks not on (not even fitted for me) and while flying/fighting
Quote:
Anyway, is this 'un-probable' status against someone with all L5 skills and best ship for probe + best probes and implants?
Yes, the "100% guarantee unprobable" is for smaller than a target size of 1.08, i.e. Sig radius / sensor strength < 1.08.
Most people do not have max skills/virtue set so that is really to be safe. Realistically you can have a higher target size.
Have your friend message me in game if he wants to try it. Or have him try to probe you down. Fit a frigate with a bunch of ECCM (just get your sensor strength higher than your signature radius, this will ensure you are below the 1.08 threshold.
for whatever reason he seems really ticked off that I keep asking him about this topic.
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