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Ifandbut Reborn
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.02.06 21:11:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ifandbut Reborn on 06/02/2011 21:11:01 I was wondering if anyone can point me to a good outline of each race's industrial ships and their advantages and disadvantages. From the Wiki I see that the Iteron V has the largest cargo hold but I wonder if it also takes significantly longer to align and warp compared to say the Badger II.
My long term goal is to fly a blockade runner to do low-sec PI and trading. For blockade runners I see the Amarr version has the highest cargo hold yet, their industrials are 3rd largest at skill level 5.
I currently have Caldari Industrial trained to level 3 and I just started training Amarr skills when I found out about the size differences in blockade runners.
Are there any times where a smaller cargohold would be an advantage? Or, should I just go with Gallente industrials because they have the biggest cargo hold and their blockade runner is only slightly smaller then the Amarr.
Thanks.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.02.06 22:01:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 06/02/2011 22:03:44
Industrial Discussion.
Item Database: Industrial Ships
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Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Alotta Baggage
Amarr Imperial Manufactorum Armada Assail
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Posted - 2011.02.06 22:11:00 -
[3]
Minmatar ships tend to leave oil slicks
Originally by: Magnus Andronicus ur character looks like a f***ing clown dude.
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Ifandbut Reborn
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.02.06 23:00:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 06/02/2011 22:03:44
Industrial Discussion.
Item Database: Industrial Ships
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Thanks but both of those links talk mostly about cargo space. I was hopeing for more of a "Gallente have the biggest cargo hold but Caldari goes to warp alot faster" type of comparison.
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Cerebral Genocide
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Posted - 2011.02.07 00:27:00 -
[5]
From what I hear the Caldari's are the fastest and better for this.
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Cygnus Zhada
Custodians of Athra
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Posted - 2011.02.07 01:16:00 -
[6]
Gallente have the most cargo room, Amarr are the most versatile fitting wise (due to massive amounts of low slots), Minmatar are the best allround (cargo, speed, tanking, agility, fitting). Caldari are the best at being slow and crappy, their freighter holds the most though but I doubt that'll be relevant much.
--- Stultorum infinitus est numerus. |
Ifandbut Reborn
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.02.07 01:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Gallente have the most cargo room, Amarr are the most versatile fitting wise (due to massive amounts of low slots), Minmatar are the best allround (cargo, speed, tanking, agility, fitting). Caldari are the best at being slow and crappy, their freighter holds the most though but I doubt that'll be relevant much.
Just what I was looking for, thanks. Does the same hold true for the blockade runners as well?
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.02.07 05:18:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 07/02/2011 05:22:45
Wellll ... on the question of Time To Warp ...
You have a number of different factors.
To get your ship into warp, you have to get it going to 75% of it's maximum velocity - at the moment. If you are above that speed and hit warp - it will warp instantly. If you are below that speed - then you have to accelerate to it.
The formula for Acceleration. This link includes a formula for Time To Warp.
Now - a ship has two basic velocities.
Warp Speed - is it's velocity in warp (which can't be changed to my knowledge). Normal Speed - is it's unassisted velocity (which can be changed).
Your speed at warp - has nothing to do with your Time To Warp. It is just the speed at which you are moving after you get into warp.
Normal speed can be effected by a number of different things, you can have modules such as Cargo Hold Expanders that will slow it down and modules such as Afterburners and Micro Warp Drives that will speed it up.
Additionally, there are other things which can be used on a ship that will slow it down - such as Stasis Webbifiers and some cloaks.
There are also tricks you can use to get the ship into warp faster. One involves a Micro Warp Drive and a Cloak and the other involves Using a stasis webbifier to decrease the ships top speed. Both tricks involve getting the ship moving and then changing it's maximum speed - so that the speed you've already got it up to - is suddenly (if temporarily) greater than it's Current Maximum Velocity.
Micro Warp Drives and Afterburners make the ship go faster - but they also raise it's Current Maximum Velocity - which raises the speed you've got to get to to enter warp.
Cloaks and Webbers both slow a ship down - but they also reduce the ships Current Maximum Velocity.
So the basis of the trick - is to get the ships speed up - then suddenly reduce it's Current Maximum Velocity. You just have to time it right or you foul things up.
Now in addition to velocity you've got agility - and modules which will modify a ships agility.
Thus, the reason no one has answered your question on Time To Warp - is that it is a complex calculation - to be exact with the answer.
However, without any fittings, most industrials take about the same time to warp. Once you start fitting modules on them - everything changes.
Now ... here - what YOU have to do - (if you really want to know) is to take that link to the ships data base - or use the show info buttons in the market place (which are sometimes more accurate) and figure out just exactly how fast each ship is going to get into Warp.
Now - one thing I can tell you - is that the Blockade Runners as a Class - will got to warp faster than any of the others - this is one of the things they are designed to do. One of the modifiers in this - is the ships agility - and that agility can be effected by Inertial Stabilizers - which go in low slots. Thus - if your ship has more low slots - you can put more Inertial Stabilizers on it - and get into warp faster.
Now - I'll mention something else - which is that you have actually asked your question in the Wrong Forum. The Ships & Modules Forum would be a better place - and might get you a better answer than what you've gotten here.
Specifically - if your question was something like "Which Industrial - with what fittings - would get me into Warp Faster?"
Or just "Which Ship is the Best Blockade Runner?"
This last may have more answers as there could be more things involved than simply Time To Warp (all of the Blockade Runners can fit the good cloak - which BTW - isn't useful for that Cloak/MWD trick - as that is based on a standard ships inability to warp while cloaked - which a Blockade Runner CAN do).
Smaller holds are never better.
. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.07 07:20:00 -
[9]
I'll edit this as I think of more:
Amarr: All around balanced set of ships. Good choice when you can't decide. * Sigil * Bestower - Largest T1 industrial from skill level 1-3. * Providence - Second fastest and third largest freighter. * Impel * Prorator - Largest blockade runner, but also the slowest in this configuration. Overall the most flexible BR because of the number of low slots. * Ark
Caldari: Best choice for large volume hauling. * Badger * Badger Mark II * Bustard - Toughest deep space transport for the m3 cargo because of mid-slot shield tank. Makes up for the poor Caldari T1 industrials. * Crane - Largest base cargo blockade runner. Requires T2 rigs to haul a cruiser hull. * Charon - Largest freighter. Slowest freighter, so bad for AFK, but great for warp-to-zero ATK. * Rhea - Largest jump freighter. Least fuel efficient.
Galente: Only a good choice when trained to level 5. * Iteron Mark I * Iteron Mark II * Iteron Mark III * Iteron Mark IV * Iteron Mark V - Largest T1 Industrial. * Occator * Viator * Obelisk * Anshar
Minmatar: Fastest haulers, but smallest. Best choice for AFK hauling. * Wreathe * Hoarder * Mammoth - Largest T1 industrial at skill level 4. * Mastodan * Prowler - Only blockade runner with two high-slots. Fastest and most agile BR, but also the smallest. Cannot haul a cruiser hull (cargo less than 10,000 m3 when T2 rigged). * Fenrir - Fastest, but smallest freighter. Best AFK freighter. * Nomad - Smallest jump freighter. Most jump fuel efficient jump freighter.
Speed & Agility: Minmatar > Amarr > Galente > Caldari Base volume: Caldari > Galente > Amarr > Minmatar Low slots: Amarr > Gallente > Minmatar > Caldari
All blockade runners seem to have a fitted sweet spot of around 7,500 m3. At this amount of cargo, they are all very similar. This is also an ideal amount of cargohold for level 4 courier missions.
None of the racials are bad. They are just a bit different. Carefully consider all the ships open to you before training level 5. What is important to you in an industrial may not be important to someone else.
For what it is worth, to me every m3 counts, so I trained 4 pilots to pilot Caldari freighters. The Bustard has a huge tank, and mine have survived gank attempts. I use Bustard for PI and mining hauling. The Crane is a fine hauler when T2 rigged, with the option of cargo or speed with just changing the low slots from cargohold expanders to local istabs. My second choice was Amarr, primarily because of the amazing Prorator.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.07 07:38:00 -
[10]
Ran out of room in previous post because of links
For what it is worth, to me every m3 counts, so I trained 4 pilots to pilot Caldari freighters. I own 3 Charon, and am working towards building another Charon and a Rhea (I own all the BPO).
The Bustard has a huge tank, and mine have survived gank attempts. I use Bustard for PI and mining hauling. I don't recommend it for general hauling through gates, as all deep space transports (DST) are very slow. I own 3 Bustard.
The Crane is a fine hauler when T2 rigged, with the option of cargo or speed with just changing the low slots from cargohold expanders to local istabs. I own 3 T2-rigged Cranes.
My second choice was Amarr, primarily because of the amazing Prorator. I really hate the look of all the Amarr industrials.
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Cygnus Zhada
Custodians of Athra
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Posted - 2011.02.07 07:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ifandbut Reborn
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Gallente have the most cargo room, Amarr are the most versatile fitting wise (due to massive amounts of low slots), Minmatar are the best allround (cargo, speed, tanking, agility, fitting). Caldari are the best at being slow and crappy, their freighter holds the most though but I doubt that'll be relevant much.
Just what I was looking for, thanks. Does the same hold true for the blockade runners as well?
Yes. On average I WOULD choose minmatar and definitely NOT Caldari, they seriously have the crappiest haulers. Most people will have trained Gallente due to the cargo size of the Iteron 5, their T2's are decent.
--- Stultorum infinitus est numerus. |
Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.07 08:08:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 07/02/2011 08:12:51
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Also, Tau's list (while comprehensive) isn't entirely correct. Bustard is NOT the toughest tank, and especially not on AFK.
As I posted above, I rarely AFK haul, and never with valuable cargo. DST are too slow to haul AFK; I use my Charon instead which is faster and safer.
Here is the fit I usually use, which has 48,918 EHP with my level 4 skill, and hauls 24,028 m3. Try to beat that with any other DST.
If I need to leave the system, I sometimes replace the extender with a MWD, and the tractor beam with an improved cloak.
[Bustard, Durable] Damage Control II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II
Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II
Small Tractor Beam I
Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I
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Cygnus Zhada
Custodians of Athra
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Posted - 2011.02.07 08:17:00 -
[13]
Comparing an active fit then (even though most people will afk haul)
Bustard: slightly more cargo room, only resist (that matters) it's better at is thermal and even there the Masto gets 70k EHP. Lowest resists are EM and Explosive, with a piffling 40-44K EHP and both can be hit just fine by arties.
Masto: More shield, more resists where it matters, faster, slightly less cargo room
[Mastodon, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II
[empty high slot]
Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Face it, overall Minnie haulers are just "better" :)
--- Stultorum infinitus est numerus. |
Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.07 08:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Comparing an active fit then (even though most people will afk haul)
Yes, go Minmatar if you hate actually hauling. I think I posted that above.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada [Mastodon, New Setup 1]
Nice fit. I'll correct my post above.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.02.07 11:02:00 -
[15]
Just wanted to thank Cygnus & Tau for their nice discussion and great posts.
. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Armageddon Brown
MCLC Galactic
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Posted - 2011.02.07 11:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ifandbut Reborn
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Gallente have the most cargo room, Amarr are the most versatile fitting wise (due to massive amounts of low slots), Minmatar are the best allround (cargo, speed, tanking, agility, fitting). Caldari are the best at being slow and crappy, their freighter holds the most though but I doubt that'll be relevant much.
Just what I was looking for, thanks. Does the same hold true for the blockade runners as well?
if you do wormhole hauling with a BR you *must* fly Minmatar or have a scout/pre-scouted route (and be careful with timing), only the Prowler has two high-slots for the scan probe launcher + covops cloak.
if you do anything else the Minmatar BR is probably the worst because you can't haul a cruiser (maximum cargo space fit/rigged is <10km3). The Amarr is the biggest but slowest BR, and caldari and gall are somewhere in between.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.02.07 12:09:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ifandbut Reborn
My long term goal is to fly a blockade runner to do low-sec PI and trading. For blockade runners I see the Amarr version has the highest cargo hold yet, their industrials are 3rd largest at skill level 5.
Are there any times where a smaller cargohold would be an advantage? Or, should I just go with Gallente industrials because they have the biggest cargo hold and their blockade runner is only slightly smaller then the Amarr.
Based on your long term goal ... only Amarr, Gallente and Caldari (to a lesser extent) skill tree applies. The Minmatar blockade runner is generally unsuitable for this task since it's impossible to fit 10K m3 cargo onto it. This is a MAJOR flexbility issue when it comes to hauling 10K m3 launchpads AND hauling any std packaged cruiser hulls.
Between the above 3 races, the real clicher would depend on your T1 industrial and freighter preferences. T2 freighters (aka jump freighters) may see minimal usage if you're just a casual player, so basing your industrial skill tree entirely just on this is probably not the best course of action.
So ....
Amarr - Decent T1 industrial, better than Caldari but worse than Gallente. Best blockade runner (in terms or cargo and fitted align time), worst freighter. Good aesthetics for Sigil/Prorator, Providence and Ark (typical Carthum Conglomerate color scheme).
Gallente - Best T1 industrial. Middle-ground blockade runner & freighter. Absolute worst in aesthetics, heck even the jump freighter almost looks like a normal freighter ... nuff said.
Caldari - Worst T1 industrial. Worst blockade runner (needs mandatory T2 Cargo rigs), but best freighter. Good aesthetics for Charon and Rhea ... especially the Rhea colour sheme. Someone at CCP was definitely heavily biased towards the Rhea in the art department.
If aesthetics matter a bit and best blockade runner is important, then I'd just do Amarr. If aesthetics don't matter and I plan to use T1 industrial heavily, then Gallente. If the blockade runner flexibility dont' matter much and max freighter space matter is important (now or future plans), coupled with decent freighter aesthetics as a bonus, then Caldari.
Note 1 : The T1 gallante industrial is certainly the best T1 hauler, but I find myself using this less and less in favour of the Orca/freighter. For small/medium hauls (below 15K m3), it doesn't matter, any of the races' industrial will do.
Note 2 : If your long term plans (may) include training for 2 races' skill tree, it's a bit more muddled. I'd probably do Caldari and Minmatar, sacrificing the blockade runner minor flexibility in exchange for good T1 industrial and best freighter extremes.
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Ayieka
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Posted - 2011.02.07 16:42:00 -
[18]
I use a crane for my lowsec pi hauling, havnt had any trouble with it since my planwts put out like 8m3 a week which is the size of my cargo with an agility rig and cargo rig.
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Ifandbut Reborn
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.02.08 03:33:00 -
[19]
Thanks for all of the suggestions and information guys.
After looking over everything said here and doing a bit more searching I think I am going to go for the Amarr blockade runner. The Minmatar does have a big advantage if I were going to do any wormhole hauling but wormholes scare me with the whole 'not knowing where the exit will take you' thing.
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Kesshisan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.09 07:20:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Warp Speed - is it's velocity in warp (which can't be changed to my knowledge). Normal Speed - is it's unassisted velocity (which can be changed).
Just wanted to point out something here.
You can increase your ship's maximum warp speed via an Astronautics Rig.
Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer Is and IIs will increase a ship's warp speed bonus by 20% and 25% respectively.
Note that you are unable to manually change your warp speed. For example, if your max speed is 3AU/sec, you cannot choose to fly at 1AU/sec. While in warp, your ship will fly as fast as it possibly can, until it decides you need to slow down to come to successfully stop at the desired location.
As far as I know, all ships accelerate at the same rate while in warp. That means if you have a frigate with a 6au/sec max warp speed, and a battleship with a 3au/sec max warp speed, and they both start to warp at the same time, they will both reach 3au/sec at the same moment. However the frigate will continue to accelerate to 6au/sec (when applicable) while the battleship will still be trudging along at a slow 3au/sec. If the warp distance is too short, and you do not need to reach 3au/sec before you start decelerating, both the frigate and the battleship will reach the destination at the same time.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.02.09 08:52:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kesshisan
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Warp Speed - is it's velocity in warp (which can't be changed to my knowledge). Normal Speed - is it's unassisted velocity (which can be changed).
Just wanted to point out something here.
You can increase your ship's maximum warp speed via an Astronautics Rig.
Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer Is and IIs will increase a ship's warp speed bonus by 20% and 25% respectively.
Note that you are unable to manually change your warp speed. For example, if your max speed is 3AU/sec, you cannot choose to fly at 1AU/sec. While in warp, your ship will fly as fast as it possibly can, until it decides you need to slow down to come to successfully stop at the desired location.
As far as I know, all ships accelerate at the same rate while in warp. That means if you have a frigate with a 6au/sec max warp speed, and a battleship with a 3au/sec max warp speed, and they both start to warp at the same time, they will both reach 3au/sec at the same moment. However the frigate will continue to accelerate to 6au/sec (when applicable) while the battleship will still be trudging along at a slow 3au/sec. If the warp distance is too short, and you do not need to reach 3au/sec before you start decelerating, both the frigate and the battleship will reach the destination at the same time.
Thanks. Forgot to check the rigs.
Changed post.
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Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Cygnus Zhada
Custodians of Athra
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Posted - 2011.02.09 09:06:00 -
[22]
Kess is 100% correct, warp speed rigs CAN be useful but not always. Most of the time there's better things to rig for.
--- Stultorum infinitus est numerus. |
Admiral Rufus
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Posted - 2011.02.13 18:46:00 -
[23]
Prowler can fit a probe launcher and so can be useful for wormhole transport
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