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Unholy Converter
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Posted - 2011.02.07 11:50:00 -
[1]
Let me start off by saying I enjoy EVE from all aspects,PvP and Production/Trade. I dont log in to say "how can I waste my real money and give my Time/ISK away" or rather "I cant wait to log in and mine" to say it from the perspective of what seems to be the majority of industrialists.
In some small way Hulkageddon represents what EVE used to be albeit not in a truely natural form of demand outweighing supply. When I started in mid '05 building a battleship was a dream realized by a 10 pilot corp of miners at least,now we see 10 Hulk crews cranking out 2 carriers a week. Hulks were a miners wet dream and the economy was hardly a twinkle in the eye of anyone plying the trade or industrial markets of Jita or other hubs,it was truely a miner/manufacturer dream. Competition was scarce compared to these days and any threat of the market going stale was years away. Those years are gone and over production has come to pass,today to earn anything resembling a decent income one has to crank out very large quantities of ships,items and munitions to see a return worth the effort. To the uneducated miner "its all profit" is a perfect excuse to lower his prices to push his items. From his pov(the wrong one) its all gravy. He can sell his items at whatever price because he mined the minerals thus no out of pocket expense(BPC/BPO excluded). Those miners are wrong. Raw minerals sell at a price too and when the items being sold sell for less than the mineral value he has thrown his time and isk away.
Lets look at it this way,the T2 production chain can deliver a decent profit because moon mining is not threat free. There is a dreadnaught around every corner,an enemy alliance seeking their opponents moons and wealth next door and getting material from the POS to trade hubs can be daunting. Moon miners in general require more in depth understanding of their target markets though seeing threads like "POS is isk sink" still happen. Moon mining requires violence to either get into or keep going and that effects the market. Changes on the map as alliances take and lose space have massive effect on supply and demand meaning the market doesnt stay stable for too long. War has great effect both to the material supply and demand for T2 items and to a lesser effect T2 ships. With exception of capital ships T1 ship and item markets tend to grow stale even with war on due to ease of production,availability of resouces,meta items dropped from NPCs and the fact Hulks tend to go unmolested during their operations.
For those of you already well aware of your market and how it all works this was waste of your time. For others I hope this was at least educational. As you can imagine I fully support Hulkageddon as much as my friends who crank out capital ships pray for "a good week" when some nullsec empire losses a fleet of capitals.
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Rykuss
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Posted - 2011.02.07 13:09:00 -
[2]
I'll get excited about it when I get my hands on a hulk bpo. Maybe next year.
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Zelda Wei
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Posted - 2011.02.07 13:13:00 -
[3]
We should have it every Friday for the previous month, like dress down day, to prepare.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.02.07 17:04:00 -
[4]
I've only been playing 2 years, so I don't remember the "good old days" of 5 or 6 years ago. However, I have read much about them.
Roid spawn was at a much lower rate than today. Since it happened at downtime, the select few (like west coast USA where downtime was like 5-6 in the morning), could rush out and get in a couple hours of mining before heading to work. If you lived in Euroland and worked nights, even better as the respawn happened noonish your time and you have 5-6 hours before heading to work.
If, however, you were one of the others... those that were at work during the great downtime respawn.... Well, you were SOL. By the time you got home from work, no minerals.
CCP was never going to be content with a system where people that were willing, able and even eager to pay them money to do stuff, found no stuff to do, so quit paying.
So, now we get massive respawn so that it is virtually impossible for all belts in all systems to get mined out. EVERYONE gets to mine. The market is flooded with cheap minerals, and everyone is looking for a way, any way, to convert those minerals into ISK.
Manufacturing is no longer about maximizing profits on the rare minerals. Manufacturing is about looking for a way, any way, to convert the ubber abundant minerals into ISK.
And, it isn't just mining. Drone compounds. Loot. It is all a source of minerals that needs to be converted into ISK. LOTS and lots of it.
CCP is not going to go back to a model where only a relative few people can mine and everyone else finds empty belts. They can remove some large loot. Maybe refactor some compound reprocessing outputs. But those are buckets out of a raging river of minerals that need to be converted into ISK.
Lets say hulkageddon results in the destruction of 1000 hulks of the 17000 hulks currently in game. While that may be good for moon miners, it isn't going to do much for roid miners as those hulks pilots will be back in belts within an hour of their ship's destruction. Total minerals removed from game is... what? Liek 100 more capitals getting blown up?
Okay... let's say 20% of the miners stay in station for that week, 2 weeks a year. .2 * 1/26 = 0.8% fewer minerals mined.
Bucket fulls out of a river.
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face donor
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Posted - 2011.02.07 17:55:00 -
[5]
Well, to be honest, supporting events like Hulkageddon based on the fact that mineral/industry income has decreased, is kinda like blaming compass for pointing North.
Your income has decreased because there are way more people in this game than in '05. More people that mine and want to make isk from it (selling your minerals cheap, is ******ed of course).
Not a small part of it, is because of mining bots (if they were killing ONLY bots, I would not only support them, but join them).
Game developers have never made it a secret, that they want people to move out of high sec, as it is supposed to be a starter region, just like a starter corp is. Hence, they will never do anything to protect those high sec Hulks by banning the event.
BUT, lets say I would arrange a similar high sec gank fest for killing ONLY new pilots. Justification could be the same, my income has decreased and I want less producers in this game. What do you think, how fast ccp would ban that kinda event? Killing only Mining ships is no less discrimination.
So: - people who participate in high sec killing be honest about it. You want easy kills and it is fun for you. - CCP do the right thing and revoke insurance compensation for ships that get destroyed by concord. In real life you would not be compensated if you set your house on fire intentionally.
peace
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Zircalla
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Posted - 2011.02.07 18:22:00 -
[6]
Quote: - CCP do the right thing and revoke insurance compensation for ships that get destroyed by concord. In real life you would not be compensated if you set your house on fire intentionally.
^This. And I kind of like H-A, but insurance should be more reasonable for ALL concord-violations - i.e. non-existent or reduced, whatever.
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sg1jack
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Posted - 2011.02.07 19:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: face donor
-people who participate in high sec killing be honest about it. You want easy kills and it is fun for you.
This is the only reason Hulkageddon still exsists. Never had a problem with Hulkageddon but anyone that takes part in it wants to do it for, easy kills and carebear tears. Might as well call a spade and spade.
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Cung
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Posted - 2011.02.07 19:22:00 -
[8]
Back in the old days :) can only remember from 2005, back in the old days: 10k people playing!!!!! Like other problems, even in real life! more people = more needs, more everything! the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer, the same resources will "have to" be split among everyone. Hulkageddon is just a way 'old' players have to get back on 'new ones' for eating from the same plate :p lol
If the fun factor isn't present... then yes, people will start to go. As long as the fun factor is still on, bring those Hulkageddons and 300 frigates fleets! The fun factor is off when 'we' see that investing time and money (real money) trying to do something will bring 'us' no fun as things nowadays and unfortunately, change faster then bullets. For example, a pilot investing time (real money) training / buying a Hulk and see it being destroyed "just because someone can" is not fun, spending time learning for a marauder, doing one of the firsts jumps into low sec space and seeing that baby go 'baboons' "just because someone can" is not fun. Spending time (money) doing something and see that everything can go wrong "just because someone can or think is entitled to" is not fun, at least for one part :p
Oh well, I do hope Hulkageddons go forward 1 a month I say! More isk for those BPO owners, even Concord will help with that :D But I would say everyone joins, miners Vs rest. I'm from a time where haulers would kill vagabonds (HACS) if they wanted to :D
(alt char, no main due to conflict of interests in corp )
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Kiyirari
All Star Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.02.07 19:26:00 -
[9]
You forget the fundemental basic's of EVE...
Destruction of anothers ship/PvP is the life blood of EVEs economey, with out this we will all be ****ed for isk destruction = profit = demand or what ever equation ya wanna put ya twisted carebear mInd set into
I sell guns 'n' ammo = boom, boom, baby making profit through destruction of anothers what ever... FACT OF LIFE
Revenge is my god and my guns are her angels |
Griffin Niles
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Posted - 2011.02.07 20:08:00 -
[10]
As a player that has done a lot of mining and that has had a Hulk blown out from under me, as well as been involved in blowing them up, I have to say that Hulkageddon is a great idea! It's just a game and everyone should relax and enjoy the thrill! It doesn't have much of an impact on the economy but it does serve to remind people stuck in carebear mode that there is a lot more to the game that they are not seeing!
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Cindjin
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Posted - 2011.02.07 20:24:00 -
[11]
As a Miner, I agree with Hulkageddon. It helps to keep EVE real and adds excitement. Yesterday, I was fortunate to be in a system effected by the Sansha Incursion. It was exciting. EVE needs that type of random excitement....even in Hi-Sec. I am trying real hard lately to shed my former carebear ways. Keep in mind I'm not even a year into playing EVE so I'm still learning. As the OP stated...it's a great way to help stimulate the economy.
Just my .02 ISK
Be Well
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face donor
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Posted - 2011.02.07 20:32:00 -
[12]
EVE is a pvp game, but this is not your everyday's pvp. It's picking easy kills from defenseless new players, while being compensated through insurance. I highly doubt that those especially created alts are gonna bring any income to ccp.
This event is probably gonna bring even more mining bots, all in new accounts and in Retrievers. Just those ****ed off miners, wanting to get back, lol
Having "The Police" in this game is a joke lol. Hell, remove the concord from this game all together. I'm just amazed that some group of players are ignored and bullied openly, while you can get suspended for talking smack in local :D Un- effing-believable But hey, money talks and bs walks.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.02.07 22:59:00 -
[13]
The real reason we need Hulkageddon: What else would we talk about?
I swear, it seems like more time and effort goes into discussing the event, than the actual event itself.
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Mechanoid Kryten
N0VA 5
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Posted - 2011.02.08 02:54:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Mechanoid Kryten on 08/02/2011 03:02:02 I ran a high sec corp for almost 2 years (closed now) and I saw the pain that the last 2 Hulkageddons caused. Corp chat deteriorated to "ccp should ban hulkageddon" and "it wasn't like this in the old days" and other such depressing things, ruining everyone's game for a week, but especially mine, since I had to listen to this sort of chat while NOT mining. Multi-tasking while mining is my cup of tea. That's why i started running Hulkageddon resistance fleets. First one was a corp-wide fleet to catch gankers and their pods, the second I ran contest-style for my allaince. It worked to fix morale in my corp. Now that I closed my corp, I'm running this event-style. http://griefer-geddon.blogspot.com/ I actually have a donated Nightmare to give away as 2nd prize for most gankers killed. I have a thread about this in the Events and Gatherings section. Doing this allow me to look forward to Hulkageddon.
I do believe many of the miners that got ganked in prior Hulkageddons -- which were still able to take people by surprise back then -- quit EVE -- leaving a higher percentage of macro miners and miners who LIKE hulkageddon in the game. The only problem is, I liked my fellow miners! I don't have any exact stats but on the time when I logged in there were 5k to 10k fewer people on the server after the last Hulkageddon. This is why, I believe, there seem to be more miners in support of Hulkageddon now. I do not believe high sec should be entirely safe, but I would support a nerf of ship insurance in the case of a ship being used in a crime. Until then fix ship insurance, if you don't like Hulkageddon, join us! Kill some gankers pods (if they are flashy red as they soon will be, or even if they are not if you have 3 points of sec status to spare) and win some prizes!
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.08 06:51:00 -
[15]
so many players give Hulkageddon way more credit for impacting the market than it does in reality.
I haven't ever seen the market move than much during or after Hulkageddon. |
Serge Bastana
Gallente GWA Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.08 08:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Griffin Niles As a player that has done a lot of mining and that has had a Hulk blown out from under me, as well as been involved in blowing them up, I have to say that Hulkageddon is a great idea! It's just a game and everyone should relax and enjoy the thrill! It doesn't have much of an impact on the economy but it does serve to remind people stuck in carebear mode that there is a lot more to the game that they are not seeing!
Originally by: Cindjin As a Miner, I agree with Hulkageddon. It helps to keep EVE real and adds excitement. Yesterday, I was fortunate to be in a system effected by the Sansha Incursion. It was exciting. EVE needs that type of random excitement....even in Hi-Sec. I am trying real hard lately to shed my former carebear ways. Keep in mind I'm not even a year into playing EVE so I'm still learning. As the OP stated...it's a great way to help stimulate the economy.
Just my .02 ISK
Be Well
Two players willing to enjoy the game even though it might impact their play style a bit, willing to think and adapt. It's not hard, and for all those whining about the HG event, really if you can't handle a week or two of either being more situationally aware or finding other things to do, you're stuck in the same old thing and are just making yourself a target. My corp and I actually ran a mining op with hulks and an orca during last years event but we had fun spending some time figuring out tactics to avoid being easy ganks. Using the overview and directional scanner while idling in my orca made the op that much more interesting and a few simple ideas to make sure the others in the op were ready should we find ourselves becoming potential targets helped them too.
------------------------------------------------ Quafe is people! |
Unholy Converter
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Posted - 2011.02.08 09:34:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Unholy Converter on 08/02/2011 09:38:51 Edited by: Unholy Converter on 08/02/2011 09:37:43 because he tries to link like an idiot [If I may,carebears are hardly defenseless. Let us watch closely the following for inspiration as many times as is needed....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U
This isnt my vid but its along the lines of hulkageddon and hey,someone sold a ship and fittings every time this Hulk pilot popped one.
Best of luck to all of you. If you man up and stay,good on you, if you emo rage and perma quit I understand and kind of thank you,one less competitor.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.02.08 16:51:00 -
[18]
My corp plans to go right on mining. We have lots of resists, lots of shield extenders, and will swap one hulk for a scimitar. The thinking is that the griefers will go looking elsewhere for easier targets.
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Calfis
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.02.08 21:22:00 -
[19]
Let's face it guys, in a game that is a giant sandbox you need player driven content. And miners for all intents and purposes are boring and create zero content. Player sponsored events create content and coverage for Eve. Events like these highlight why Eve is a unique game that doesn't hold your hand like all of the other MMOs on the market.
I do agree with the insurance nerf, might hurt gankers who do not have a steady source of income but for null sec pilots coming up to high sec to vacation for a week. It probably would make no difference at all. The cost of a suicide gank ship is meh.
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ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
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Posted - 2011.02.12 11:18:00 -
[20]
Anyone who mines during Hulkagedon isn't doing it for the ISK.
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Fulbert
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.02.12 12:01:00 -
[21]
Switch to insured covetors. Produce&sell thrashers (unresearched BPOs will do the trick) Try some L3 and L4 missions for a change and boom! Hulkageddon will just be your mining springbreak, and you'll even do some money from it. Whining about Hulkageddon is and will always be irrelevant . And I say as the pure carebear I am :) -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist |
Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.02.12 12:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: sg1jack
Originally by: face donor
-people who participate in high sec killing be honest about it. You want easy kills and it is fun for you.
This is the only reason Hulkageddon still exsists. Never had a problem with Hulkageddon but anyone that takes part in it wants to do it for, easy kills and carebear tears. Might as well call a spade and spade.
What I don't get is why you people *must* believe there is only a single motivation for participating in the event. Motivations vary from person to person and are almost never singular.
For me, it's fun, it teaches people that nowhere is truly safe, it outrages the less clever players and it blow up a whole lot of macros, whom I despise.
motivations are rarely as clear cut as you insist.
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Ronja Mistysdottir
The Treehugger Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.12 13:51:00 -
[23]
I kill exhumer rats for the loot. Used to make a nice profit on it.
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TravisWB
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Posted - 2011.02.12 14:07:00 -
[24]
You don't need hulkageddon any longer. A sansha incursion means that the infected constellation can no longer be mined period until sansha is gone. Sansha eliminates bots the first day of an incursion.
INCURSION turns this into a shooter game, so go after the targets ccp sent you.
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raney ilara
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Posted - 2011.02.12 23:42:00 -
[25]
Edited by: raney ilara on 12/02/2011 23:46:14
Quote: What I don't get is why you people *must* believe there is only a single motivation for participating in the event. Motivations vary from person to person and are almost never singular.
For me, it's fun, it teaches people that nowhere is truly safe, it outrages the less clever players and it blow up a whole lot of macros, whom I despise.
motivations are rarely as clear cut as you insist.
No, what they are saying is most of the professed motives are dishonest...and we've heard them all. While I suspect the fun factor plays into it more than not or no one would do it, listening to some RP veldspar jihadist trying to "save the asteroids" doesn't strike me as being particularly honest. While some few probably think they are going to gain some market advantage from the event the truth is more likely most have nothing to do with the market.. so the generalization makes sense.
The key to me appears to be the fun of pvp against players who think they are safe ...period. Many pvpers resent high sec miners merely because they try to stay away from guns but still it's the fun of killing "unsuspecting" pilots that drive them.
Use a fight against macroers, or asteroid defense, or an attempt at market manipulation, or eve safety training guruness as your rational to participate if you like. All I'm saying is it's flimsy rational.
Yes, you can claim that many are making generalizations about the why any pilot joins the event but saying there are "many different reasons" is likewise a generalization...and it would be useless to try to collect all the flimsy excuses.
To make any sense of the event, to protect ourselves as much as we can, generalizations are an important mathematical factor and necessary for the development of a decent plan of action for the event. Whether that means joining pvpers or changing mining habits is up to individual interpretation of (convenient) generalization. |
Shakon
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Posted - 2011.02.13 05:10:00 -
[26]
It so they can get away with griefing and pay no penalty by biomassing there toons. Anything else is a lie.I dont see any 4 or 5 year old toons doing it. Maybe 1 or 2 but thats it. Just like founder intended a way to grief and get around the rules doing it.
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Reyona
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Posted - 2011.02.13 06:08:00 -
[27]
Never fly a ship that you cannot afford to self destruct at a moment's notice. That was the first ever piece of advice i got when starting out.
That applies not only to PVP, but to everything in this game, even mining. If you can't afford to lose that shiny Hulk, don't fly it. And if you do fly it and lose it, you can start by blaming yourself.
Not saying it's good or bad, just saying that as gankers plan their attack, so should miners plan their defence.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.02.13 14:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shakon It so they can get away with griefing and pay no penalty by biomassing there toons. Anything else is a lie.I dont see any 4 or 5 year old toons doing it. Maybe 1 or 2 but thats it. Just like founder intended a way to grief and get around the rules doing it.
Recycling alts for hulkageddon is a bannable offense, though many keep an alt alive just to participate; they are not allowed to recycle them.
Your assertion that only 1-2 year old characters participate is a bold faced lie. The corporations and players that won most of the prizes in previous editions of hulkageddons are primarily low sec pirate corps that are well established and have been around for years.
Looking up some of our top competitors in EVE right now, it seems they gravitate more to 3-4 years than anything else.
Anybody that thinks the winners in the event are people that use alts with high sec statuses is pretty much either delusional, stupid, or too lazy to do some research.
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baphemet stein
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Posted - 2011.02.13 16:39:00 -
[29]
Edited by: baphemet stein on 13/02/2011 16:42:04 This whole thread everyone is talking about HULKS. The thread (hulkageddon4) I read stated everything industrial related is green lighted. Badgers, retrievers, I guess osprey's as well. Now I've been playing less than a month, and think that if my Osprey was gettin smoked everytime i collected insurance on it and got a new one, I would go find a more well rounded game to play. Sure you could say go do missions, but the missions in the game seem to be cookie cutter missions anyway, just as boring as mining. But mining seems to be the way to make money to get things I think I need to further me into 0.0, which I thought was the point of the game. Thought that was where the real fun was, not ganking lowbies in starter areas.
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civiire
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Posted - 2011.02.13 16:55:00 -
[30]
you know i haven't seen a single post on the fact that if done correctly, a hulk can survive the gank squad that hulkageddon produces, and then you get to watch the guys hellbent on killing your hulk go poof while you collect your much needed rock. Not saying i have done this, just seen killmails involving a hulk, a bunch of dessy's and concord.
cheers
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