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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2011.02.12 12:30:00 -
[151]
At least something we can agree on :P
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.12 12:38:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 12:46:12
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Could your mentioned Daredevil handle a cruiser?
Depends on the cruiser hull and its fittng. Same with Dramiel, neither can just engage any cruiser.
Originally by: Tzar'rim
That's because most idiots fit fusion or EMP instead of long range ammo (like every frigate pilot should. Fit T2 long range standard to deal with frigs, if you run into something bigger/slower you'll have enough time to switch back to faction).
If you use barrage against frigates in a shortrange Dramiel then you are doing it wrong.
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Your fit against barrage <3700EHP, Dram fit against hybrids 7300EHP
Your math is slightly off there by about 20%, it is >4400EHP against barrage.
Quote:
I simply checked contracts, it said 90 mil but sure, make it 70 if you want. Still it's 70 mil, it doesn't help you and you need more to fit that ship, just as with the Dram.
Apart from the IFFA the rest is cheap as chips. My regular dualprop dramiel fit is maybe 25mill cheaper before we factor in the more expensive hull. Though I'll concede its possible to fit it cheaper if you are willing to take the performance drop.
Quote: If you run into a sturdy Dramiel with a non-idiot pilot your counter won't work. At best you'll be able to call it a draw.
You can always give it a shot of course, but who said anything about countering Dramiels in this? Thats your imagination running wild, against the cookie cutter Dramiel just run a scram/blaster fit with regular web and melt it in seconds.
Its one version of a rail setup you asked for, that does the job better than a Dramiel does the kiting.
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Derek Shmawesome
We Know Derek
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Posted - 2011.02.12 13:06:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Pod Amarr Step 1
Good rapier/huginn Pilot
Step 2
arazu/lachesis
...
More importantly you need a r3tarded Angel-pilot who doesn't bail instantly when he sees those ships.
Angel ships are "overpowered" for the same reason that brought us the speed nerf. They can pick their fights and avoid anything they want. Flown by an experienced pilot they are virtually invincible, which is not good in a rock-paper-scissors game like Eve.
Price btw is not a valid argument for how good a ship should be. Price is what people were willing to pay. And they are only willing to pay so much for Angel ships, because those are a lot better than anything else. That's capitalism 101...
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2011.02.12 13:20:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 13:20:48 Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 13:20:03
Originally by: Omara Otawan stuff
you're evading the question, can a DD take on more cruiser types/fits than a Dram?
it depends on what you're fighting, if really you think you should use short range ammo when fighting short range frigates then any of your opinions just became void. When fighting bigger targets THEN you switch to faction, as I stated.
you use weird Barrage then, using barrage against the fit you stated you have 3700.
Dunno if you checked lately but a DD is more expensive than a Dramiel :)
"Who said about countering Dramiels in this" ... Wth, are you back pedalling? You STATED this exact ship and fit as a COUNTER to the Dramiel we've been talking about.
So uhm, yeah :)
Originally by: Derek Shmawesome Angel ships are "overpowered" for the same reason that brought us the speed nerf. They can pick their fights and avoid anything they want. Flown by an experienced pilot they are virtually invincible, which is not good in a rock-paper-scissors game like Eve.
Price btw is not a valid argument for how good a ship should be. Price is what people were willing to pay. And they are only willing to pay so much for Angel ships, because those are a lot better than anything else. That's capitalism 101...
This man gets it.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.12 13:30:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 13:35:04
Originally by: Tzar'rim
you use weird Barrage then, using barrage against the fit you stated you have 3700.
Standard barrage, 5/6 spread kin/exp. In fact there is no projectile damage type where it will yield less than 4200.
Originally by: Tzar'rim
"Who said about countering Dramiels in this" ... Wth, are you back pedalling? You STATED this exact ship and fit as a COUNTER to the Dramiel we've been talking about.
You are seeing things. It went like this:
Originally by: Tzar'rim Also, kite fitted Daredevil, wtf
Originally by: Tzar'rim Show me a kite fitted daredevil that isn't crap. Then, in true form to this thread, I'll show you a bunch of counters explaining what an idiot fitting is.
I posted a kite Daredevil fit.
Then you claim a Dramiel is the counter to said fit:
Originally by: Tzar'rim Secondly, lets get a Dramiel shall we.
I hope this clears up your confusion.
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fire elf
Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2011.02.12 13:41:00 -
[156]
Adapt or Die ... SIMPEL!
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2011.02.12 13:41:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 13:45:16
Originally by: Omara Otawan Standard barrage, 5/6 spread kin/exp. In fact there is no projectile damage type where it will yield less than 4200.
Now go ingame, open the market, find Barrage S, then it's info and tell us all what you find, thank you. Funny thing is that will even work in your favour. I don't know which EFT you're using but it's not giving you the numbers as they should be.
Originally by: Omara Otawan It went like this:
This... is a thread about Angel ships, in threads about Angel ships we discuss... Angel ships. And the Frigate Angel ship is the Dramiel. So if we're talking about the Dramiel, which is an Angel ship, in this Angel thread then you shouldn't be surprised if you list a ship to counter the Dramiel from my post (which, just to be sure to point out, in an Angel ship in this Angel thread), you can be pretty sure the reply is going to involve an Angel ship, in the form of a Dramiel.
What?
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.12 13:47:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 13:47:58
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Originally by: Omara Otawan Standard barrage, 5/6 spread kin/exp. In fact there is no projectile damage type where it will yield less than 4200.
Now go ingame, open the market, find Barrage S, then it's info and tell us all what you find, thank you. Funny thing is that will even work in your favour. I don't know which EFT you're using but it's not giving you the numbers as they should be.
Surprisingly, the market shows barrage s as:
5 kinetic 6 explosive
Oh my god, what a coincidence. Do I need to make a screenshot?
Originally by: Tzar'rim
This... is a thread about Angel ships, in threads about Angel ships we discuss... Angel ships. And the Frigate Angel ship is the Dramiel. So if we're talking about the Dramiel, which is an Angel ship, in this Angel thread then one shouldn't be surprised if someone lists a ship to counter The Dramiel from my point (which, just to be sure to point out, in an Angel ship in this Angel thread), you can be pretty sure the reply is going to involve an Angel ship, in the form of a Dramiel.
I take it you agree it was you that asked for said fitting, and cant show a single word where I said its supposed to counter the Dramiel?
Thought so. Nice bailout attempt though.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2011.02.12 13:52:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 13:54:02 Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 13:52:47 Damnit, I read it as expl/kin <-- idiot. You win that one :P Your EFT is still off tho.
But...
Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Tzar'rimShow me a kite fitted daredevil that isn't crap. Then, in true form to this thread, I'll show you a bunch of counters explaining what an idiot fitting is.
Thats not that hard to figure out now, isnt it? (Though there are a ton of variations on the concept really).
iffa mfs x2 od
catalyzed mwd faint point domination web
150 rails x2
small algid x3
Now, frigate counter please that isnt a Daredevil?
And I did, I posted a frigate counter being an Angel frigate, as this is a thread about Angel ships.
p.s. Can we do less he said, she said and more facts?
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.12 14:00:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 14:02:17
Stuff happens, I did mess these up myself before.
Anyway, I simply did answer to your question, and it was merely a sidenote and not intended as a full blown derail.
I'm more of a blaster enthusiast on the Devil, rails arent really my thing personally. Though fact remains, there are a lot of rail kite fittings used, they are very popular actually be it MWD or AB.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2011.02.12 14:00:00 -
[161]
Just to be impartial, this is a good DD fit. It kills frigs and has a very good chance of killing a Dram. Your "kiting" DD doesn't have a good chance to kill a tanked Dram, but it will kill most other frigs.
Yes this fit requires you to get close but you'll win from most frigs.
[Daredevil, setup] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S [empty high slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.12 14:10:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 14:16:50
Originally by: Tzar'rim
[Daredevil, setup]
That works, though I personally prefer the full gank fit w/ dual magstabs as the trimarked plate fittings are kinda on the slow side and killing speed equals GTFO ability on the Devil.
Depending on what you fight AB + nos + ions, with couple cheap speed implants and a decent AB you'll catch cruisers no problem.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.02.12 14:39:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Just to be impartial, this is a good DD fit. It kills frigs and has a very good chance of killing a Dram. Your "kiting" DD doesn't have a good chance to kill a tanked Dram, but it will kill most other frigs.
Yes this fit requires you to get close but you'll win from most frigs.
[Daredevil, setup] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S [empty high slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I
C-type ANP's. 2 of them. I would go even farther as replacing the plate for those two ANP's, meaning you can trade the ACR rig for something else.
also fed navy web. the DD is really bleh without one, and considering you get a 14km 90% web, you can trade the scram for a longpoint.
but then again my DD setup isn't really "specific", more like a taranis with a wee bit more tackling and speed than anything ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.12 15:12:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Grimpak
why using a cynabal over a vagabond then? granted cynabal can fit 425's without sacrificing the utility slot, unlike the vaga, but in the rest is still nearly equal, besides agility and drone bay.
the vaga even has a little edge on speed, and you can do nigh on the same dps and range out of a vaga if you sacrifice the utility slot and you have HAC5.
tbh only nerf that they could have gone away with would be the drone bay. there I can understand and actually go with it.
Because it can fit 425s no problem. Because it will still be more agile than the Vagabond and accelerate faster. Because it won't have to sacrifice the utility slot. Because it performs as well or better than a Vagabond with HAC5 (which takes longer to train than Cruiser V for two races).
Basically, because of every reason you just listed. ששששש
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.12 15:22:00 -
[165]
How to counter an angel cartel ship in one easy step: Make some friends and don't fly alone.
I have yet to see a dram/cyna/mach engage two ships past skirting around the edges of point range and smacking in local. As far as a gang well sure its nice to have that speed if you are out ganking solo targets but once you start to hit force parity all they can do is hit the gtfo button because they know they are going to be a primary of the enemy gang.
Angel cartel ships are great for the very niche uses they have so leave them alone as they are one of the last true solo boats in the game.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.02.12 15:25:00 -
[166]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 12/02/2011 15:25:40
Cyna does not beat Vaga by much. The very small extra you get is just not cost effective to make it a reasonable replacement. Vaga is my fav ship for cruiser, I dont see a reason to buy a Cyna at all.
Maybe if T2 prices continue going up like crazy, but not at this moment.
Dramiel is same deal if you honest, you can use the cheap alternatives just as good and you even do get more kills since people dont avoid you all the time. It is hard enough to get solo fights these days, running in pirate faction is not making it easier.
Mach maybe, it has a huge advantage no battleship will be able to provide. But I'm not that into battleships, so would not know if it is worth it.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2011.02.12 16:58:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Cordo Draken
Dude (Templar Dane), you're an idiot... Price isn't a balance factor? Ever learn about how the economy works? Higher price = better unit x (for the most part), which again when applicable as in this case = greater risk of loss. If u truly believe money isn't a factor, then go play on SiSi and knock yourself out. I suppose under ur thinking, that 70" HDTV plasma screen's price tag isn't a factor when u look to buy a new tv... Instead, i bet u only buy the $100 dollar 15". Cause who knows, someone just might want to take the 70" off ur hands, but u won't care cause it wasn't a factor. Riiight.
This is a game, not walmart. By your line of thinking, a maller should be the best cruiser because it costs more to build.
Originally by: Cordo Draken
BTW, if my badger can kill a Dram(as I posted earlier), then it certainly isn't that godly... Now is it? Cause some of us, don't need to fly the same ships, as u put it, to beat the supposed OP pirate faction ships.
Killmails mean nothing
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.02.12 19:51:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Cyna does not beat Vaga by much....
If you only look at speed, damage, tank .. sure the difference is not that pronounced.
What makes them godly is the insanely low mass and all that follows plus the extra midslots. Imagine a Vagabond that didn't have to leave 50% of its tank behind to fit a TD for instance and you can't argue with the lol-fittings on the things .. you really have to go out of your way to max them out
You see the same effect with the Hookbill. Stats wise it is a souped up Kestrel (only missile frig ), but with two extra mids it becomes godlike in the right hands .. the options that open up with additional midslots are staggering.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.02.12 19:53:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida the options that open up with additional midslots are staggering.
The best thing anyone's convinced me to do recently is put dual webs on my Drake.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.02.12 23:24:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Cyna does not beat Vaga by much....
If you only look at speed, damage, tank .. sure the difference is not that pronounced.
What makes them godly is the insanely low mass and all that follows plus the extra midslots.
I'm not looking at them in eft and phantasize, I'm flying them in combat every day. It doesnt have extra midslots, it has one extra midslot thats it.
If the Cyna gets into a situation my Vaga cant handle it dies just like the Vaga dies. The only difference there is it cost 100 million extra. It is a bit easier to handle with improved agility, but if you need that you have no business in flying either.
Bottom line it is not worth the money as long as the Vaga does not cost like 180 - 200 million.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.12 23:41:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Bottom line it is not worth the money as long as the Vaga does not cost like 180 - 200 million.
I prefer the cyna over the vaga because it gets you more fights. Everyone wants to get on a faction killmail but not everyone knows how to counter it even if they are in a gang. Tackling frigates pop first as they run face first into your low transversal 425mm when they chase you to try for the scram. Then once the tacklers are out of the picture you go for the closest cruiser if one has strayed from the flock chasing after you then you gtfo when the rest of the gang catches up. Takes a noob or disorganized opposing gang to pull off but tbh there are plenty of those running about now especialy with incursions. Angel cartel are awesome solo boats if you pick your fights vs even superiour forces.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.02.12 23:42:00 -
[172]
I wouldn't say the Dramiel is overpowered, but it is too fast.
EFT
Dramiel with MWD - 5000 m/s Claw with MWD - 4000 m/s
This shouldn't be. It should be fast, but not THAT fast.
And the dronebay. Dram should not get a drone bay, period. But if you take it away, it loses too much dps and becomes underpowered; boost the dramiel's turret damage and lose the drone bay.
Those are my thoughts on this subject.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.02.12 23:55:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Bottom line it is not worth the money as long as the Vaga does not cost like 180 - 200 million.
I prefer the cyna over the vaga because it gets you more fights. Everyone wants to get on a faction killmail but not everyone knows how to counter it even if they are in a gang. Tackling frigates pop first as they run face first into your low transversal 425mm when they chase you to try for the scram. Then once the tacklers are out of the picture you go for the closest cruiser if one has strayed from the flock chasing after you then you gtfo when the rest of the gang catches up. Takes a noob or disorganized opposing gang to pull off but tbh there are plenty of those running about now especialy with incursions. Angel cartel are awesome solo boats if you pick your fights vs even superiour forces.
You can pull that off in a Vagabond just the same, and it requires them being incompetent more than you being awesome. Both are good ingredients though
Not sure if it gives you more fights, on the one side its attracting more people that want to gank it, on the other side more people run from it. I think it evens out in the end.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.12 23:58:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Bottom line it is not worth the money as long as the Vaga does not cost like 180 - 200 million.
I prefer the cyna over the vaga because it gets you more fights. Everyone wants to get on a faction killmail but not everyone knows how to counter it even if they are in a gang. Tackling frigates pop first as they run face first into your low transversal 425mm when they chase you to try for the scram. Then once the tacklers are out of the picture you go for the closest cruiser if one has strayed from the flock chasing after you then you gtfo when the rest of the gang catches up. Takes a noob or disorganized opposing gang to pull off but tbh there are plenty of those running about now especialy with incursions. Angel cartel are awesome solo boats if you pick your fights vs even superiour forces.
You can pull that off in a Vagabond just the same, and it requires them being incompetent more than you being awesome. Both are good ingredients though
Not sure if it gives you more fights, on the one side its attracting more people that want to gank it, on the other side more people run from it. I think it evens out in the end.
Probably true. But you get more style points for using the cyna.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.02.13 00:08:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Tony SoXai I wouldn't say the Dramiel is overpowered, but it is too fast.
EFT
Dramiel with MWD - 5000 m/s Claw with MWD - 4000 m/s
This shouldn't be. It should be fast, but not THAT fast.
And the dronebay. Dram should not get a drone bay, period. But if you take it away, it loses too much dps and becomes underpowered; boost the dramiel's turret damage and lose the drone bay.
Those are my thoughts on this subject.
you can get the ares to go at 5km/sec too. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.02.13 00:18:00 -
[176]
Edited by: Tony SoXai on 13/02/2011 00:18:39
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Tony SoXai I wouldn't say the Dramiel is overpowered, but it is too fast.
EFT
Dramiel with MWD - 5000 m/s Claw with MWD - 4000 m/s
This shouldn't be. It should be fast, but not THAT fast.
And the dronebay. Dram should not get a drone bay, period. But if you take it away, it loses too much dps and becomes underpowered; boost the dramiel's turret damage and lose the drone bay.
Those are my thoughts on this subject.
you can get the ares to go at 5km/sec too.
OMG an INTERCEPTOR goes really fast WTF.
Newsflash: Dramiel is an Angel ship and therefore it is obvious it should be lightning fast. But hey, how much faster is the Cynabal than the Vaga? Not much. So why should the Dramiel go 2500 m/s faster than the Jaguar (dram being the equivalant of a cyna, jag being the equivelent of a vaga), and 1000 m/s than the fastest pure Minmatar ship in the game (Claw)?
Anyone who disagrees with this can NOT be taken seriously.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.13 00:25:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Tony SoXai So why should the Dramiel go 2500 m/s faster than the Jaguar
Because ccp gave assault frigates too much mass gimping their speed. Plus the jag is the sole lucky ship in the entire line to have passable speed to begin with. This has nothing to do with the dram. Originally by: Tony SoXai and 1000 m/s than the fastest pure Minmatar ship in the game (Claw)?
Anyone who disagrees with this can NOT be taken seriously.
Pirate ship > t2 ship by design.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.02.13 00:29:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Tony SoXai on 13/02/2011 00:30:13
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Tony SoXai So why should the Dramiel go 2500 m/s faster than the Jaguar
Because ccp gave assault frigates too much mass gimping their speed. Plus the jag is the sole lucky ship in the entire line to have passable speed to begin with. This has nothing to do with the dram. Originally by: Tony SoXai and 1000 m/s than the fastest pure Minmatar ship in the game (Claw)?
Anyone who disagrees with this can NOT be taken seriously.
Pirate ship > t2 ship by design.
You still haven't justified why it's that fast. It is too fast, end of story. You don't have to say "pirate ship>>T2" we know that. The Dram still shouldn't be faster than the Claw.
Dramiel going 5000 m/s is like a Worm being able to get 20k ehp in a serious pvp fit.
EI. Dramiel going twice as fast as the racial AF, Worm getting twice the ehp of the racial AF; both benefitting on what their ship design is good at.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.13 00:33:00 -
[179]
Edited by: Zhim''Fufu on 13/02/2011 00:33:50
Originally by: Tony SoXai Edited by: Tony SoXai on 13/02/2011 00:30:13
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Tony SoXai So why should the Dramiel go 2500 m/s faster than the Jaguar
Because ccp gave assault frigates too much mass gimping their speed. Plus the jag is the sole lucky ship in the entire line to have passable speed to begin with. This has nothing to do with the dram. Originally by: Tony SoXai and 1000 m/s than the fastest pure Minmatar ship in the game (Claw)?
Anyone who disagrees with this can NOT be taken seriously.
Pirate ship > t2 ship by design.
You still haven't justified why it's that fast. It is too fast, end of story. You don't have to say "pirate ship>>T2" we know that. The Dram still shouldn't be faster than the Claw.
Dramiel going 5000 m/s is like a Worm being able to get 20k ehp in a serious pvp fit.
EI. Dramiel going twice as fast as the racial AF, Worm getting twice the ehp of the racial AF; both benefitting on what their ship design is good at.
lol
Finally we get to what should be the rage topic of the moment. Why are the rest of the pirate ships so crap?
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.02.13 00:51:00 -
[180]
Perhaps that is the case. Perhaps.
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