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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:24:00 -
[31]
Originally by: chaireth cutestory
Originally by: Rorriana
Heck, maybe people who care about the game could donate, or just hire mercs directly if they'd prefer.
. . .
We cannot wait on CCP; doing nothing and waiting on CCP to make it better serves no better purpose than praying at a false idol.
Silly me. I thought CCP cared about the game. I already donate $15 per month. That's quite enough for me.
You realize that with billions of isk per day in botted money, the botters could afford 50x as many mercs as you could.
He should also realise that mission runners inject several orders of magnitude more isk and minerals into the game than botters so its not really an issue economy wise. The main rub is that it lets a few people make loads of isk with no real effort or risk which burns some players balls. Usually the poorer ones.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:29:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Bagehi on 11/02/2011 19:30:09 NC space has a lot of botters as well. IT space has a bunch of botters. Drone regions have a lot of botters. I haven't been in the south since the collapse, but Atlas and -A- had their fair share in their day.
Honestly, the Russians roam NC space, I would support their efforts to identify our botters up here if they don't have a problem with us outing their botters.
Now if only someone would step up and start identifying the bots in high and low sec...
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Ephemeron
BeerTia Maniacs
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:30:00 -
[33]
We need to put cheap AFK cloaker alts in those system.
I'm sure if the community of players got together, they'd find the resources to setup 20-30 such alts, that can stay online 23/7
Fight bots with bots.
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Rorriana
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:30:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Rorriana on 11/02/2011 19:31:21 I have to wonder if a check of the IPs of Zhim'Fufu would turn up any interesting 23/7 activity on CCP's end, since he seems determined to convenience everyone how little of a problem botting is and how it is impossible for players to solve it.
And for the record that isn't a subtle ad hominem attack, it's a direct accusation. As far as I am concerned your speech here has branded you botter or at the least botter-sympathizers.
The last thing we need is people trying to convince others to just look the other way when this type of activity is going down.
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gtiness
Sick Tight Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:32:00 -
[35]
Startup website adds new content, promptly kills their server...blames DDoS. c/d
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Fearless M0F0
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:39:00 -
[36]
Are you guys aware there are companies such as blockdos.com that would filter DDOS and redirect clean traffic to your servers?
My employer got DDOS, we called them and were back up in 15 mins, you have to pay them tought.
-- I take offense on people feeling offended by me |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:41:00 -
[37]
Quote: One particularly productive system (ETO-OT in The Spire) is home to four Ravens and two Badgers that generated 4200 kills in a 24 hour period...
So, I monitored the statistics on dotlan pretty closely back in the days and usually the top systems had 20k kills in 24 hours. But that quickly faded down to 8k and below.
If 4 bots do 4200 kills in 24 hours, then 20k kills are done by around 20 bots.
There were maybe 2-3 system with such a high npc kill count.
A rough estimate (some guesswork here) says that there were at maximum 80-100 bots (one ship each) in that region back in those days - today the killcount is MUCH lower.
100 bots. That is not a SERIOUS problem. A problem? Yes, but it is not serious.
An alliance with 2000 people needs to rat only 1 hour per day to generate the same income as those 100 bots ratting 20 hours a day. That is really not such a big deal.
Bots must be banned, yes. But they are far from being game breaking as SOME people want to make others believe.
And for all that are going to scream now I just ask: Where are all the npc kills of those many botters? If there would have been (and still are) that many botters, they would create a far bigger npc kill count. So ... where are they all?
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Rorriana Edited by: Rorriana on 11/02/2011 19:31:21 I have to wonder if a check of the IPs of Zhim'Fufu would turn up any interesting 23/7 activity on CCP's end, since he seems determined to convenience everyone how little of a problem botting is and how it is impossible for players to solve it.
And for the record that isn't a subtle ad hominem attack, it's a direct accusation. As far as I am concerned your speech here has branded you botter or at the least botter-sympathizers.
The last thing we need is people trying to convince others to just look the other way when this type of activity is going down.
Rofl. Botters need to be stopped simply for abusing the game mechanics not because they are actually effecting the game in a measurable way. The problem is that your idea sucks. It's not viable given the nature of the game and its totally up to ccp to find and enforce it. But if you want my two cents worth the easiest way to muck up the botters is to have every rat in nullsec sport a warp disruptor. This makes it easy to chain for humans who can easily figure out what rats not to shoot so they can get away and still keep the chain going and a nightmare to the logic of the bot program. If every rat gets a point then logging off when someone enters local goes out the door and makes them easy prey for the ones hunting them. Chaining becomes difficult because the bot program now has to figure out what to shoot and what not to shoot so it can gtfo of the belt. Will this stop botting? Probably not entirely but it certainly takes the main issue of them warping off and cloaking up or just simply logging off a fair bit harder and not 100% certain like it is now.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Ten Bulls
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:42:00 -
[39]
I was getting around the DDOS by getting the URL of the story from RSS and then putting it into google cache.
e.g. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.evenews24.com/2011/02/10/it-alliance-throws-the-towel-every-man-for-himself/
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Brannoncyll
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:45:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu He should also realise that mission runners inject several orders of magnitude more isk and minerals into the game than botters so its not really an issue economy wise. The main rub is that it lets a few people make loads of isk with no real effort or risk which burns some players balls. Usually the poorer ones.
So you don't mind that you have to work for your isk when some people do not? Or maybe you are a bot user yourself?
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Jora Starlight
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:48:00 -
[41]
The complacency of some of the commenters on this subject is frightening.
But then again, complacent botters might be easier to catch and get rid of....
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:53:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Brannoncyll
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu He should also realise that mission runners inject several orders of magnitude more isk and minerals into the game than botters so its not really an issue economy wise. The main rub is that it lets a few people make loads of isk with no real effort or risk which burns some players balls. Usually the poorer ones.
So you don't mind that you have to work for your isk when some people do not? Or maybe you are a bot user yourself?
I do exploration and trading for my isk because I enjoy it and if lucky can make more isk per day than the botters. Certainly enough isk to afford whatever I want to buy and use on whatever alts I have. Come to think of it I have never did a single day of 'work' in the game by only making isk from enjoying the content. That a few hundred players are botting to make isk to sell is ccp's problem not mine. So if you want to make it your problem then go camp the systems. I'm just saying good luck finding anyone else who gives a crap to go babysit with you.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Rorriana
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:53:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Rofl. Botters need to be stopped simply for abusing the game mechanics not because they are actually effecting the game in a measurable way.
We should find out exactly how much they effect the game. I'll string together a bunch of words that will surely trigger something on CCP's side for forum moderation, and then hope whomever finds this post will point our good doctor Eyj=lfur Gu=mundsson to this thread to provide input.
t20 exploit sploitz hack cheat kutso IA favoritism sphere client macro petition player revolution sit-in bob MSN goons no local gave blueprint hacks band of brothers reloaded PL chribba
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riverini
Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:55:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Fearless M0F0 Are you guys aware there are companies such as blockdos.com that would filter DDOS and redirect clean traffic to your servers?
My employer got DDOS, we called them and were back up in 15 mins, you have to pay them tought.
Yeah but starting at $299, we would be spending more money in Anti-DDoS than in hosting fees (which are already costly)
According to CCP and duder who works there (i'll get to him in one deliciously dedicated post), they cannot advertise in "fan-sites" or open the GTC market, so EveNews24 most likey will suffer the same luck than eve-metrics and similars, unless the World of Tanks guys come back to the rescue (ironic isn't it?)
Good thing CCP cares for their community, right?
Maybe I should email this their boss, they always seems to rush into getting **** responded when someone CCs their CEO.
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Iceni
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:57:00 -
[45]
De-botting the game could be sooo easy. Like having an in-game message that needs a simple human response every so often. A bit like a 'dead man's handle' that train drivers have, to make sure that someone is still breathing at the controls.
So c'mon CCP, why not?
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Vortura
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Posted - 2011.02.11 19:59:00 -
[46]
I don't think CCP wants to take care of botters. Think about it. In your list there are 82 individual accounts (there may be 83 to 85, but I couldn't tell the separation). Each count is paying 14.99 (or stimulating the EvE Economy through time card purchases). That is $1,228.18 a month income they would lose from those 82 accounts, or $17,750.16 a year. You can bet there are just say there are 3 x that many botters in all of EvE, 246. That is $3,687.54 a month or $44,250.48 a year of loss revenue. Seems like chump change, but in the grand scheme of things, everything adds up to thousands more.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.11 20:02:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Rorriana
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Rofl. Botters need to be stopped simply for abusing the game mechanics not because they are actually effecting the game in a measurable way.
We should find out exactly how much they effect the game. I'll string together a bunch of words that will surely trigger something on CCP's side for forum moderation, and then hope whomever finds this post will point our good doctor Eyj=lfur Gu=mundsson to this thread to provide input.
t20 exploit sploitz hack cheat kutso IA favoritism sphere client macro petition player revolution sit-in bob MSN goons no local gave blueprint hacks band of brothers reloaded PL chribba
lol. Way to dodge the viable idea to make botters life difficult to pounce on the difference in our percieved effects botters have on the game. Do you want to stop botting or just rage about something irrelevant? Again the idea of having players set up afk cloaked ships in targets systems to keep botters from botting is like a lot of eft fits I see in ships and mods. They look great on paper but often end up being less pleasing or effective in action so come up with another way to get it done if you actually want to get someone to jump on the cause.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Rorriana
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Posted - 2011.02.11 20:09:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu lol. Way to dodge the viable idea to make botters life difficult to pounce on the difference in our percieved effects botters have on the game. Do you want to stop botting or just rage about something irrelevant? Again the idea of having players set up afk cloaked ships in targets systems to keep botters from botting is like a lot of eft fits I see in ships and mods. They look great on paper but often end up being less pleasing or effective in action so come up with another way to get it done if you actually want to get someone to jump on the cause.
I was trying to give your suggestion that bots have little impact on the game due consideration, but I think any random guesses here on the forums are people squawking over made-up numbers, so I was hoping to get better confirmation. Without CCPs input I'll just have to leave it as a point of contention that you feel bots are a small problem, and I feel they are a very large one.
I don't see the problem with gathering together forces of people who hate botters to roam their space, hiring mercs and pirate to throw at them, and harassing their botting efforts with AFK cloakers.
It isn't the most original plan, but it seems like it would get the job done.
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FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.11 20:23:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Quote: One particularly productive system (ETO-OT in The Spire) is home to four Ravens and two Badgers that generated 4200 kills in a 24 hour period...
So, I monitored the statistics on dotlan pretty closely back in the days and usually the top systems had 20k kills in 24 hours. But that quickly faded down to 8k and below.
If 4 bots do 4200 kills in 24 hours, then 20k kills are done by around 20 bots.
20k kills was done by doing drone horde anomalies(sanctum equivalent for drones) in minutes with smartbombs until CCP changed it so warp-in is far and points where rats spawn aren't in smartbomb range. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.02.11 20:30:00 -
[50]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Gnulpie
Quote: One particularly productive system (ETO-OT in The Spire) is home to four Ravens and two Badgers that generated 4200 kills in a 24 hour period...
So, I monitored the statistics on dotlan pretty closely back in the days and usually the top systems had 20k kills in 24 hours. But that quickly faded down to 8k and below.
If 4 bots do 4200 kills in 24 hours, then 20k kills are done by around 20 bots.
20k kills was done by doing drone horde anomalies(sanctum equivalent for drones) in minutes with smartbombs until CCP changed it so warp-in is far and points where rats spawn aren't in smartbomb range.
That means there are even fewer bots. And yes, the smartboming was a bit silly |
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.11 20:33:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Gnulpie
That means there are even fewer bots. And yes, the smartboming was a bit silly
I would say it means they are killing the rats much slower tbh. Seeing as they can no longer warp in and smartbomb to victory
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northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services Quantum Forge
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Posted - 2011.02.11 20:43:00 -
[52]
oh yer sure NC doesn't have bots too maybe u sort out your backyard out first eh?
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riverini
Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.02.11 21:25:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Vortura I don't think CCP wants to take care of botters. Think about it. In your list there are 82 individual accounts (there may be 83 to 85, but I couldn't tell the separation). Each count is paying 14.99 (or stimulating the EvE Economy through time card purchases). That is $1,228.18 a month income they would lose from those 82 accounts, or $17,750.16 a year. You can bet there are just say there are 3 x that many botters in all of EvE, 246. That is $3,687.54 a month or $44,250.48 a year of loss revenue. Seems like chump change, but in the grand scheme of things, everything adds up to thousands more.
I will feature this comment at the end of our article, if you don't mind.
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chaireth cutestory
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Posted - 2011.02.11 21:49:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Iceni De-botting the game could be sooo easy. Like having an in-game message that needs a simple human response every so often. A bit like a 'dead man's handle' that train drivers have, to make sure that someone is still breathing at the controls.
So c'mon CCP, why not?
Even easier than that, really. No human rats 23 hours straight for 2 days in a row. You don't need a captcha to tell whether or not macroratters are bots. This isn't rocket science, it's just that they don't care.
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
An alliance with 2000 people needs to rat only 1 hour per day to generate the same income as those 100 bots ratting 20 hours a day.
I think that's roughly the right way to look at it, except you should realize that in a 2,000 person alliance, most people don't log in every day. I don't know what the 'average' user behavior looks like, but I'd guess that maybe 12-20% of users log in on any given day. Adjusting for that, these bots could outfarm a mega-alliance of about 15,000 people.
Originally by: Vortura
I don't think CCP wants to take care of botters. Think about it. In your list there are 82 individual accounts (there may be 83 to 85, but I couldn't tell the separation). Each count is paying 14.99 (or stimulating the EvE Economy through time card purchases). That is $1,228.18 a month income they would lose from those 82 accounts, or $17,750.16 a year. You can bet there are just say there are 3 x that many botters in all of EvE, 246. That is $3,687.54 a month or $44,250.48 a year of loss revenue. Seems like chump change, but in the grand scheme of things, everything adds up to thousands more.
Occam's razor and all, hard to argue with this.
Except I see no reason to imagine that there are only 240 bots ingame. I mean, really. This is a list from like 4-5 sparsely populated regions. Everyone agrees there are probably a lot of bots everywhere, nullsec, highsec, north, south, east, etc.
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Ur235
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.02.11 21:57:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Ur235 on 11/02/2011 21:57:04
Cant CCP just make activating a cloak as an act of agression so when they ctrl q they cant dissapear? (not for 15 mins anyway)
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Ephemeron
BeerTia Maniacs
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Posted - 2011.02.11 22:09:00 -
[56]
The best way to combat 0.0 botters is to place AFK cloaked alts in their systems
the sooner people start realizing it, the faster we can have a solution that actually works. Only problem is that somebody would need to run a computer lab for all the accounts. Basically a bot farm of their own against the bots
Or CCP can just nerf local chat
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Ur235
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.02.11 22:11:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Ur235 on 11/02/2011 22:11:03
Originally by: Ephemeron The best way to combat 0.0 botters is to place AFK cloaked alts in their systems
the sooner people start realizing it, the faster we can have a solution that actually works. Only problem is that somebody would need to run a computer lab for all the accounts. Basically a bot farm of their own against the bots
Or CCP can just nerf local chat
theyd never do that because it would penalize actual players and not just bots although I would be for it mind you
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Navirios
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Posted - 2011.02.11 23:08:00 -
[58]
Lol you guys dont understand ****....
If you actually tried to realize how bots work ,rather than talking crap on the forums, you would come to the conclusion that they abuse the ability to read pixels from the client.
BitBlt, ReadPixel in C++ PixelGetColor, PixelSearch in AutoIT just to name a few.
~~~~~~ S O L U T I O N ~~~~~~~
CCP make it impossible to read such data from the client.
There you go, problem solved ...
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Ming Call
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Posted - 2011.02.11 23:09:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Vortura I don't think CCP wants to take care of botters. Think about it. In your list there are 82 individual accounts (there may be 83 to 85, but I couldn't tell the separation). Each count is paying 14.99 (or stimulating the EvE Economy through time card purchases). That is $1,228.18 a month income they would lose from those 82 accounts, or $17,750.16 a year. You can bet there are just say there are 3 x that many botters in all of EvE, 246. That is $3,687.54 a month or $44,250.48 a year of loss revenue. Seems like chump change, but in the grand scheme of things, everything adds up to thousands more.
This.
My main has been playing this game since beta. Macroers/botting have been around from the very start. The one consistent element over all these years is CCP does absolutely nothing significant to eradicate this issue. It's not in their best interests to.
Money talks. You all complain, but its not enough to make you stop paying for your subs. The botters finance more alts than you ever could anyway. SO why would CCP wish to ban significant numbers of subscribers?
I don't recall CCP ever taking a significant stand on this issue, and I doubt very much they ever will until people vote with their feet/wallets.
Previous anti-macro campaigns were driven by bad publicity which slightly affected new subscriber numbers, which resulted in very limited number of high profile bannings, equally designed to gain publicity.
Was it/has it been sustained? LOL... LMFAO !!!
Either live with it or vote with your subscription, regretfully CCP does not listen to much else.
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Gareth Ultari
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Posted - 2011.02.12 00:45:00 -
[60]
Two quick changes would sort this out Make pve content variable (ex, making officers unsoloable) Get rid of newbie corps for anyone more than 1 month old
The first change will burn ratting and missioning bots (they would die multiple times, unless they decide to bot in packs, which would be less profitable) The second would like us wardec bot mining corps in hisec
Problem solved
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