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Internet White Knight
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Posted - 2011.02.14 02:35:00 -
[91]
Originally by: syphurous All this bot whine, and no one has complained about the 0.01 isk market bots.
Check the Market Discussion forums. Every fifth thread is a bot whine. |
RuckaLucka Ali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.14 03:15:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Gareth Ultari Two quick changes would sort this out Make pve content variable (ex, making officers unsoloable) Get rid of newbie corps for anyone more than 1 month old
The first change will burn ratting and missioning bots (they would die multiple times, unless they decide to bot in packs, which would be less profitable) The second would like us wardec bot mining corps in hisec
Problem solved
A buddy told me a bot is in the making that can run level 4 missions they already have bots that run sanctums as well
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.02.14 03:18:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 14/02/2011 03:19:12
Originally by: Camios
It's pretty efficient actually.
1) make alt with cloaky t3 2) warp to systems frequented by said 23/7 farmer ravens 3) Safespot and cloak 4) ask for a reasonable ransom to leave the system 5) get the money 6) report them
But it may go in the wrong direction:
1) make alt with cloaky t3 2) warp to systems frequented by said 23/7 farmer ravens 3) Safespot and cloak 4) ask for a reasonable ransom to leave the system 5) get the money 6) report them 7) you get banned because CCP believe you have bought isk from them.
I set up an alt account, and take months training it (and paying subscriptions) to run a t3, or purchase a character. Then I spend a lot of isk on that t3. I park that in character in a system. And the "payoff" is that a character I suspect to be a robot with minimal if any human oversight eve mails me and pays me to move, should the human even notice me, rather than just move systems.
No, that does not sound like a good plan. On any level.
Oh, and I would need to leave a computer on 23/7 to make it work too. This plan just keeps getting better!
edit to add: why does it even need to be a t3? why am I even answering this crazypost? why?
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.14 03:27:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Internet White Knight
Originally by: syphurous All this bot whine, and no one has complained about the 0.01 isk market bots.
Check the Market Discussion forums. Every fifth thread is a bot whine.
And yet I can still make literally billions and billons off trade by applying a few percentage points of my grey matter to the issue of beating the market bots.
Lrn2trade
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Catheryn Martobi
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Posted - 2011.02.14 03:29:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Camios
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Beating the bots in 4 steps: 1) make cloaky alt 2) warp to systems frequented by said 23/7 farmer ravens 3) Safespot and cloak 4) lol as they all ctrl-q or ss/cloak and wait for you to leave.
So a human has to login to ensure a robot doesn't.
That is the opposite of efficiency.
It's pretty efficient actually.
1) make alt with cloaky t3 2) warp to systems frequented by said 23/7 farmer ravens 3) Safespot and cloak 4) ask for a reasonable ransom to leave the system 5) get the money 6) report them
But it may go in the wrong direction:
1) make alt with cloaky t3 2) warp to systems frequented by said 23/7 farmer ravens 3) Safespot and cloak 4) ask for a reasonable ransom to leave the system 5) get the money 6) report them 7) you get banned because CCP believe you have bought isk from them.
You don't play Eve 23/7 do you? you could help by sacrificing a single day of training and one of your alt characters. Just train an alt to use a t1 cloak on a frig and go sit in a botting system while you're at work or school. They can have the system while you play on your main, but the other 20 hours will be held hostage.
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Arrakis Shai
Caldari Deja Vu Holding
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Posted - 2011.02.14 03:46:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Arrakis Shai on 14/02/2011 03:48:34
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: laksmi2 bots having no influence on the economy? drone region bots pump 100 billion in aloys into the market every day. and this number pales in comparision to the minerals gained from the alloys that are made straight into hundreds of supercaps.
bots devaluate human work they need to go.
That 100 bil a day in isk and minerals is like saying a billion dollars is alot of money to a modern industrialized country. Yeah its sure a hell of a lot more than you personally have or can easily make but then again when put up against the amount of isk and minerals mission runners inject into the ecomomy each day its a literal pittance. Or are you saying bots now outnumber mission runners?
IMO, comparing the income to a small nation is a great way of looking at the problem. From what ive seen (and admittedly im mainly a mission runner, so correct me if im wrong) In Eve, when you wage war, its not so much a combatant war, its a resources and financial war. Very similar to the way a war is won in the real world; He who can maintain his forces and extend his supply chains the farthest and longest will win.
Combatants can be resurected within seconds, however putting them in ships and arming them costs resources and isk. these then have to be supplied from another arm of the corp to keep the war machine running.
if part of that war machine is litirally a machine, it gives un-fair advantage to those using bots for income/recource gathering. or forces everyone to employ bots to even the battle field.
why should this bother us mission runners (well those of us that dont bot atleast)? it increases the ammount of time you need to run missions in order to keep up with the inflation caused by automated isk generation.
edit: creative spelling/grammer
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.14 03:49:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Arrakis Shai
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: laksmi2 bots having no influence on the economy? drone region bots pump 100 billion in aloys into the market every day. and this number pales in comparision to the minerals gained from the alloys that are made straight into hundreds of supercaps.
bots devaluate human work they need to go.
That 100 bil a day in isk and minerals is like saying a billion dollars is alot of money to a modern industrialized country. Yeah its sure a hell of a lot more than you personally have or can easily make but then again when put up against the amount of isk and minerals mission runners inject into the ecomomy each day its a literal pittance. Or are you saying bots now outnumber mission runners?
IMO, comparing the income to a small nation is a great way of looking at the problem. From what ive seen (and admittedly im mainly a mission runner, so correct me if im wrong) In Eve, when you wage war, its not so much a combatant war, its a resources and financial war. Very similar to the way a war is won in the real world; He who can maintain his forces and extend his supply chains the farthest and longest will win.
Combatants can be resurected within seconds, however putting them in ships and arming them costs resources and isk. these then have to be supplied from another arm of the corp to keep the war machine running.
if part of that war machine is litirally a machine, it gives un-fair advantage to those not using bots for income/recource gathering. or forces them to employ bots to even the battle field.
why should this bother us mission runners (well those of us that dont bot atleast)? it increases the ammount of time you need to run missions in order to keep up with the inflation caused by automated isk generation.
GTFO of my forums with your common sense.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2011.02.14 03:58:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: laksmi2 bots having no influence on the economy? drone region bots pump 100 billion in aloys into the market every day. and this number pales in comparision to the minerals gained from the alloys that are made straight into hundreds of supercaps.
bots devaluate human work they need to go.
That 100 bil a day in isk and minerals is like saying a billion dollars is alot of money to a modern industrialized country. Yeah its sure a hell of a lot more than you personally have or can easily make but then again when put up against the amount of isk and minerals mission runners inject into the ecomomy each day its a literal pittance. Or are you saying bots now outnumber mission runners?
Who says there are no bots that can run missions? Anyway, of course that crapton of minerals influences the economy. It severely shifts mineral prices, already evidenced a few weeks after the regions opened and the problem has been there since. Shortly before drone regions opened: nocx at 500+ isogen at 115
After drone regions, omber (the previous main Isogen source) became worst hisec ore. Iso dropped to 62 by november Nocx value dropped to 200 at first and took another half year to crawl down to 110. Zydrine, initially gutted from 3k to 1.2k recovered to fluctuate between 2 and 2.6k. Eventually, when W-space came along, which opened access to incredible ABC supplies, it fell rapidly to current levels.
Mission loot nerf hardly moved mineral prices, proving the exaggerated claims about its influence to be exactly that. Wildly exaggerated. But they got what they wanted: attention to things that were not to do with their own activities in null. It pretty much must have gone something like this: hm, interesting numbers from CCP, we can probably use them to blame someone. "look look, missions are the boogiemen".
Only the recent drone compound changes has shifted things significantly. Proving once again that they are in fact a very significant part of the supply.
Don't give us that crap about it being a drop in the bucket. Insurance conversion. Not nearly as efficient as it used to be, but it still has value. Put in a little isk and a lot of minerals and out comes a lot of isk.
Unlike LP stores. Put in a lot of isk and some LP and out comes a item. And oh my, if a ship/module comes out, you also have to put in a meta 0 version and out comes the fewer-minerals-if-recycled faction version.
And yes, bots and macroers probably outnumber real mission runners. And miners, and ratters and "sanctumers". In terms of: Missions run (both combat and courier), m3 of ore mined, officer/faction spawns harvested, sanctums cleared. Where have you been the last 4 years? Playing wow?
Who isnt thinking that "unholy rage was merely a setback"? We know they are out there in very considerable numbers. Mining. Missioning, with couriers being the most visible, with all the frequent hauler traffic. Running sanctums and their equivalents. Ratting, including camping inside last room of static plexes. And I would not be surprised if probing has also been automated or haxxed by now.
Btw, you "lets wage player war on them" advocates. Yes, it is admirable and so on, but think what you are up against. Bots dont need rest. They dont get tired, they dont lose patience. They have much more time on their hands than you.
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Josefius
Gallente JOKAS Industries Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2011.02.14 03:59:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Josefius on 14/02/2011 04:00:34 o.O
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.02.14 04:04:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Ariane VoxDei
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: laksmi2 bots having no influence on the economy? drone region bots pump 100 billion in aloys into the market every day. and this number pales in comparision to the minerals gained from the alloys that are made straight into hundreds of supercaps.
bots devaluate human work they need to go.
That 100 bil a day in isk and minerals is like saying a billion dollars is alot of money to a modern industrialized country. Yeah its sure a hell of a lot more than you personally have or can easily make but then again when put up against the amount of isk and minerals mission runners inject into the ecomomy each day its a literal pittance. Or are you saying bots now outnumber mission runners?
Who says there are no bots that can run missions? Anyway, of course that crapton of minerals influences the economy. It severely shifts mineral prices, already evidenced a few weeks after the regions opened and the problem has been there since. Shortly before drone regions opened: nocx at 500+ isogen at 115
After drone regions, omber (the previous main Isogen source) became worst hisec ore. Iso dropped to 62 by november Nocx value dropped to 200 at first and took another half year to crawl down to 110. Zydrine, initially gutted from 3k to 1.2k recovered to fluctuate between 2 and 2.6k. Eventually, when W-space came along, which opened access to incredible ABC supplies, it fell rapidly to current levels.
Mission loot nerf hardly moved mineral prices, proving the exaggerated claims about its influence to be exactly that. Wildly exaggerated. But they got what they wanted: attention to things that were not to do with their own activities in null. It pretty much must have gone something like this: hm, interesting numbers from CCP, we can probably use them to blame someone. "look look, missions are the boogiemen".
Only the recent drone compound changes has shifted things significantly. Proving once again that they are in fact a very significant part of the supply.
Don't give us that crap about it being a drop in the bucket. Insurance conversion. Not nearly as efficient as it used to be, but it still has value. Put in a little isk and a lot of minerals and out comes a lot of isk.
Unlike LP stores. Put in a lot of isk and some LP and out comes a item. And oh my, if a ship/module comes out, you also have to put in a meta 0 version and out comes the fewer-minerals-if-recycled faction version.
And yes, bots and macroers probably outnumber real mission runners. And miners, and ratters and "sanctumers". In terms of: Missions run (both combat and courier), m3 of ore mined, officer/faction spawns harvested, sanctums cleared. Where have you been the last 4 years? Playing wow?
Who isnt thinking that "unholy rage was merely a setback"? We know they are out there in very considerable numbers. Mining. Missioning, with couriers being the most visible, with all the frequent hauler traffic. Running sanctums and their equivalents. Ratting, including camping inside last room of static plexes. And I would not be surprised if probing has also been automated or haxxed by now.
Btw, you "lets wage player war on them" advocates. Yes, it is admirable and so on, but think what you are up against. Bots dont need rest. They dont get tired, they dont lose patience. They have much more time on their hands than you.
Yeah it sure sucks that virtually 100% risk free isk was nerfed in high sec by the flaming sadistic coders in ccp. This is eve ffs. Get a clue and some pride or go back2genericgrindermmo.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Trillian Nero
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Posted - 2011.02.14 04:05:00 -
[101]
All CCP has to do is to run it's own player bot in all systems simulating a "real player" being present.
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Kewso
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Posted - 2011.02.14 04:13:00 -
[102]
pfft my name isn't on the list :(
i've been botting since i stop actively playing a year ago... just a bad habit i guess
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Mister Normal
Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.02.14 04:49:00 -
[103]
o/ Riverini Hope EN24 kills that dos attack soon, i think it's pretty suspicious it happened when ya released that PL rage article lol
If you need any further help, hit TEST up
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Mister Normal
Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.02.14 04:55:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Trillian Nero All CCP has to do is to run it's own player bot in all systems simulating a "real player" being present.
All CCP has to do is pull said data from their servers and run a simple sum calculation through. How long are the suspected bots online for? When do they log on? Are they logging on at the exact same time day after day?
5 minutes work.
MANY happy people.
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Catheryn Martobi
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Posted - 2011.02.14 05:31:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Mister Normal
Originally by: Trillian Nero All CCP has to do is to run it's own player bot in all systems simulating a "real player" being present.
All CCP has to do is pull said data from their servers and run a simple sum calculation through. How long are the suspected bots online for? When do they log on? Are they logging on at the exact same time day after day?
5 minutes work.
MANY happy people.
There is always a margin of error though. This method WILL ban some innocent bystanders or miss some of the bots, or more likely both.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2011.02.14 05:58:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Ephemeron The best way to combat 0.0 botters is to place AFK cloaked alts in their systems
the sooner people start realizing it, the faster we can have a solution that actually works. Only problem is that somebody would need to run a computer lab for all the accounts. Basically a bot farm of their own against the bots
Or CCP can just nerf local chat
This is true.
Prior to the netcode nerf, I had just started to advertise my new corporation 'Cloakers' with the intention to do exactly what you describe.
Just to clarify, there is no need for botfarm. All you need to do is:
1. Create 1 alt on a spare character slot if you have one. 2. Train basic cloaking and take your character out to a known botting system. 3. When you log off at the end of the day, load your afk cloaker and idle him / her in system while you go to work, sleep, other RL stuff.
Basically, apart from losing 1 character slot, you lose absolutely nothing else.
If even 0.5% of EvE players did this we could fill a good portion of all alliances 0.0 booting space with afk anti-botting characters and deny them their trump card, the ability to use entry of non-allied characters as a flag to quit, dock or cloak.
--------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU. |
Elize Phearson
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Posted - 2011.02.14 06:40:00 -
[107]
fail website
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BOTA KILLA
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Posted - 2011.02.14 10:20:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 14/02/2011 06:10:59
Originally by: Ephemeron The best way to combat 0.0 botters is to place AFK cloaked alts in their systems
the sooner people start realizing it, the faster we can have a solution that actually works. Only problem is that somebody would need to run a computer lab for all the accounts. Basically a bot farm of their own against the bots
Or CCP can just nerf local chat
This is true.
Prior to the netcode nerf, I had just started to advertise my new corporation 'Cloakers' with the intention to do exactly what you describe.
Just to clarify, there is no need for botfarm. All you need to do is:
1. Create 1 alt on a spare character slot if you have one. 2. Train basic cloaking and take your character out to a known botting system. 3. When you log off at the end of the day, load your afk cloaker and idle him / her in system while you go to work, sleep, other RL stuff.
Basically, apart from losing 1 character slot, you lose absolutely nothing else.
If even 0.5% of EvE players did this we could fill a good portion of all alliances 0.0 botting space with afk anti-botting characters and deny them their trump card, the ability to use entry of non-allied characters as a flag to quit, dock or cloak.
Lets do it! ^^ What do I need to train exactly?
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.02.14 10:27:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Arrakis Shai why should this bother us mission runners (well those of us that dont bot atleast)? it increases the ammount of time you need to run missions in order to keep up with the inflation caused by automated isk generation.
the mining bots already keep inflation in check.
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Kurelean
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Posted - 2011.02.14 11:38:00 -
[110]
In my opinion it would be better if the sovereignty holder of the system in which those bots operate were to be held responsible as well. They KNOW it happens, and they're all happy about it, they even allow them to stay in their alliance. A good way to combat botting is to discourage people from doing it, by punishing the sovereignty holder for it as well, by for example making their sov bills way more expensive if they get caught ignoring the botting problem, as that makes them accomplices. I'm not trying to say it's the players' responsibility to report it, because after all CCP is supposed to deal with it, but neither should alliances allow such acts in their sov. They too should remove the offenders from their alliances and report them instead of supporting them by giving them systems to bot in peacefully, and i feel that if they keep supporting the bots the alliances should be punished for that, being accomplices.
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My Postman
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Posted - 2011.02.14 12:21:00 -
[111]
Ok, afk cloaking might upset macroers, and if put up large scale it even might effect.
But what are we doing against those thousands of highsec macros? They are literally everywhere. The place i am living since 2 or 3 months (not mining anymore, not worth it) got visited and annected by macroes two weeks ago (at least 4 of them).
When someone logs in at 5 pm CET and TRIES to mine, he will find outmined belts. Thats 4,5 hours after downtime. I had a close look, these "guys" are online 23/7, always warping to 200 km and than warping to rock. No convo request ever accepted, no response to local.
These busy miners donŠt care about cloaked ships, but they will take notice of my brutix while hulkageddon. I know, not very much but still i try to help.
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Ombey
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2011.02.14 12:47:00 -
[112]
I am unfamiliar with PvE mechanics- if you log off while under aggessions to/from rats, do you disappear as if unagressed? Basically, does rat aggression count like normal aggression?
If not, it should. This would be legit, and would help CtrlQ merchants not exploit it.
Secondly, warp scramming NPCs should be much more prevalent. Always seemed silly to me that rats don't use scrams very much. Perhaps raise bounties to compensate for added risk?
2d EveMaps|My blog
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.02.14 12:52:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Ombey I am unfamiliar with PvE mechanics- if you log off while under aggessions to/from rats, do you disappear as if unagressed? Basically, does rat aggression count like normal aggression?
If not, it should. This would be legit, and would help CtrlQ merchants not exploit it.
Secondly, warp scramming NPCs should be much more prevalent. Always seemed silly to me that rats don't use scrams very much. Perhaps raise bounties to compensate for added risk?
I have no idea either
However I've never seen ratting bots (h-bot) do anything other than warp to safe & cloak or warp to POS when someone who isn't blue enters local.
When you do catch them there's no reaction at all - they'll just keep shooting rats while they try to warp to safe/POS.
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Camios
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.02.14 13:04:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
I set up an alt account, and take months training it (and paying subscriptions) to run a t3, or purchase a character. Then I spend a lot of isk on that t3. I park that in character in a system. And the "payoff" is that a character I suspect to be a robot with minimal if any human oversight eve mails me and pays me to move, should the human even notice me, rather than just move systems.
No, that does not sound like a good plan. On any level.
Oh, and I would need to leave a computer on 23/7 to make it work too. This plan just keeps getting better!
edit to add: why does it even need to be a t3? why am I even answering this crazypost? why?
Why a cloaky T3? To evade gatecamps more easily, and represent a decent danger to them. Of course there are other cheaper ships that can do that. But for some botters if you are in a t1 frig you don't represent a real danger. You need to be a real threat.
And you don't need to be online 23.5/7, you can inflict them a real economic damage just being online 6 hours.
Too much for you? Don't do it, let them bot.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2011.02.14 13:20:00 -
[115]
*regarding alts in systems to make them cloak up* ...or we could play the game and enjoy it without policing the people who cheat with bots and such ourselfs, ccp, the poeple who set the rules in the first place and hold all the real power, could do any of the good surgestions here and sort it out (at at least significantly reduce the numbers)
ccp need to make up their minds: A. do somthing about the bots B. loose paying players to increasing numbers of botters, who will have no one to sell their isk too, how sad. C. change EULA and loose players
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E man Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.14 15:58:00 -
[116]
WoW i look forward to this! Alliances supporting this should also be listed.
People need to do more of this! This will get CCP to wise up and see this as a problem. RMT is a problem but bots are a bigger problem and not al bots are for RMT.
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HowardStern
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Posted - 2011.02.14 16:28:00 -
[117]
Botters pay, too.
Then end.
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E man Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.14 16:41:00 -
[118]
Edited by: E man Industries on 14/02/2011 16:41:30 Wow actually read the articale and wow...so easy to identify and even when petitioned a 1 day ban!!!!!!
WoW, CCP needs to get on this fast!!! 18% of the population where he was(i know not 18% of eve) is insane!!!!
And yes botters pay as well but for every sub a botter represents is 2 people who quit over bots.
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Jessie42
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.14 16:52:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Jessie42 on 14/02/2011 16:53:39
Originally by: E man Industries Edited by: E man Industries on 14/02/2011 16:41:30 And yes botters pay as well but for every sub a botter represents is 2 people who quit over bots.
Now who's saying stupid things?
The way CCP can beat bots is by making content less repetitive and less mind-numbingly, soul-crushingly, skull-****ingly boring. Anyone who enjoys mining in this game must have a mental deficiency or at the very least be doing something else whilst doing it. And ratting is tedious at the best of times.
Incursions are hopefully a step in the right direction, however they are a bit rare and never seem to spawn on my side of eve.
Mining has been asking for a massive overhaul for donkeys years now, as no one in there right mind would do it. Last time CCP mass banned mining bots, mygod the cap fuel prices were obscene for months, not enough to cripple large entities but enough to **** my wallet. Also they keep mineral prices low, low enough to the point where i have no doubt they are probably within ccp's economic models of eve as they have a profound effect on the mineral index.
The whole "if mining bots were banned more people would mine and thus the price would stay the same" thing is also false, as no sane person wants to mine. It's less an issue of the bots themselves and more the fact that CCP have made the content of this game in a way that is extremely repetitive and boring, which makes it easy to bot, as even a player doing these things his actions also look extremely repetitive(and boring).
tl:dr, make pve not a mindnumbingly boring piece of **** and less repetitive(thus making it more interesting for players as well as making it harder to script), so pve in this game is seen as something that's enjoyable in itself not as "something i do so i can pvp" and hopefully the bot population will fall.
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HowardStern
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Posted - 2011.02.14 17:15:00 -
[120]
Originally by: E man Industries And yes botters pay as well but for every sub a botter represents is 2 people who quit over bots.
To be honest, I'm not sure this is true. I'd love for it to be the case, but I don't see any hard facts about it.
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