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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.02.16 05:24:00 -
[1]
I've been thinking about the fact that I've had to suggest some folks go to RAW23 for loans (I'm not sure if they did or not) for collateralized loans, because I didn't have the liquidity necessary to properly support their desired loan amount (despite being satisfied their collateral was more than sufficient, even taking into account market variance).
Despite my fondness for my fellow MD'er, I'd like to be able to utilize these profit vectors myself. I've been paying off my currently outstanding debts, and have now gotten all my debt down below the magical 4% mark wherein I think collateral loans are reasonably easy to find demand for; as such, I've been considering increased liquidity measures.
To this end, I've started a trade alt; however, it takes money to make money, and I've just drained most of my "spare" income (I always like to have some cash around for a rainy day) into PvP ships (as you may have heard, Russians have this funny idea that it's a good idea to invade NC). The ships in question will be replaced entirely if lost, so I don't have any concerns about having to spend money to replace them; I do, however, want to have A) funds to get started trading (was thinking about putting somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 billion isk out of a bond into this, along with the trade alt's api key into somebody like breaker77's hands so he can audit my performance along the way - more for my benefit than for MD's, really) but I'd also like to get enough liquid to be able to secure those loans I've had to decline to fund, and as such I'd like to find somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15b that I can set back specifically for that purpose (I'll be starting a 1-man trading corp on my trade alt; I could put it into a corp wallet that would make it relatively simple to track that i'm using it for its intended purpose).
At 3%, the ROI for investors is somewhat low; however, it would allow me to literally sit on the money between loans, as it's negligible to make the interest payments even in the event that I have nobody to loan the funds to for a period of time.
Note that this would be concurrent with my ~8b currently outstanding debt (I can verify the exact amount when I get home) and would also be concurrent with any takers on the offer I made in Kalrand's latest bond.
My question, then, is this: Would an indefinite-term, uncollateralized, approximately 15b principal, 3% bond appeal to anybody? I'll set more definite terms if the interest is there; I'd also like to get a feel for what concerns the community might hold about this, so I can address those.
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 05:34:00 -
[2]
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.02.16 05:35:00 -
[3]
I can't deny that I giggled at the picture.
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Luxotor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.16 06:05:00 -
[4]
At 3%, the ROI is a little low for my tastes, but I can't say I can't see this taking off. Good luck! |
Margraves
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Posted - 2011.02.16 07:55:00 -
[5]
Assuming it was relatively consistent with distribution, the fact that the interest rate is low doesn't seem like an issue as long as you keep the maximum investment low enough to ensure that whatever cash reserves you have don't get eaten up by the siren call of higher return. Having 15b is fine unless and until your investor with a 6b stake needs to draw down and it happens to be the week when you finally put all that capital to work.
At any rate, at the end of the day it boils down to the same old liquidity/risk/return as everything else. IMO something like this in the right measure could serve to mitigate risk from more speculative endeavors, like buying 100,000,000 guidance systems or something. It's also not a bad place for lazy money, since all anyone has to do is send you ISK and collect a check until the end of time or they need a shiny new internet spaceship.
BSAC is starting/has started what amounts to a money market fund which is very similar to this idea. Lazy money ftw.
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.02.16 12:22:00 -
[6]
Sounds like you're gathering a lot of debt you can't afford to pay off, especially if you underwrite kalrand (and he defaults) .. So can we assume that you are talking solely a lack of LIQUID isk and that you have plenty in other assets should you have to liquidate and pay people off for any reason (then of course can third party confirm these facts, before you take isk from people?)
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.02.16 12:43:00 -
[7]
My impression of your recent investment decisions is that you expose yourself to excess risk in a manner that is a little too impulsive.
Recent examples include the Lethal Entrepreuner IPO and potentially just as seriously, the decision to underwrite Kalrand's bond for just 1% of the overall value.
I don't want to sound unduly harsh, but you need to demonstrate a real improvement in your investment methodology and particularly in your ability to conduct a risk assessment.
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Kalrand
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 13:44:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal My impression of your recent investment decisions is that you expose yourself to excess risk in a manner that is a little too impulsive.
Recent examples include the Lethal Entrepreuner IPO and potentially just as seriously, the decision to underwrite Kalrand's bond for just 1% of the overall value.
I don't want to sound unduly harsh, but you need to demonstrate a real improvement in your investment methodology and particularly in your ability to conduct a risk assessment.
How would underwriting me be potentially as serious as investing in Lethal Entrepreneur?
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Grimhowl
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Posted - 2011.02.16 14:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Liberty Eternal My impression of your recent investment decisions is that you expose yourself to excess risk in a manner that is a little too impulsive.
Recent examples include the Lethal Entrepreuner IPO and potentially just as seriously, the decision to underwrite Kalrand's bond for just 1% of the overall value.
I don't want to sound unduly harsh, but you need to demonstrate a real improvement in your investment methodology and particularly in your ability to conduct a risk assessment.
How would underwriting me be potentially as serious as investing in Lethal Entrepreneur?
1% doesn't seem worth the risk of default, no matter how unlikely. I wouldn't think that is any comment on you personally.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.02.16 14:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kalrand How would underwriting me be potentially as serious as investing in Lethal Entrepreneur?
Here is the underwriting offer:
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane I'll still offer to, as somebody else put it, underwrite this. I think I'd have to limit my own liability on that to about 10b though.
A ten billion isk liability has thus been assumed, when DS has already declared himself to have a cashflow shortage and outstanding debts.
I'm not making a judgement on your character Kalrand. The decision to issue a 10-billion isk guarantee needs to be undertaken very carefully indeed, as there are a wide range of risks which may lead to a claim being made by the insured party.
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Phatstabley
Gallente The Hull Miners Union Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.02.16 14:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane My question, then, is this: Would an indefinite-term, uncollateralized, approximately 15b principal, 3% bond appeal to anybody? I'll set more definite terms if the interest is there; I'd also like to get a feel for what concerns the community might hold about this, so I can address those.
If you were strictly working with ~2bil for trading and the rest for collateralized loans, it may be interesting. A lot would hinge on the withdrawal schedule.
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 14:31:00 -
[12]
Are we already back to "this sum of money is too great" arguments again? Dear god pubbies.
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
Kalrand
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 15:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Grimhowl
1% doesn't seem worth the risk of default, no matter how unlikely. I wouldn't think that is any comment on you personally.
Originally by: Liberty Eternal I'm not making a judgement on your character Kalrand. The decision to issue a 10-billion isk guarantee needs to be undertaken very carefully indeed, as there are a wide range of risks which may lead to a claim being made by the insured party.
I can completely agree with both of these statements.
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Tutskii
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Posted - 2011.02.16 15:47:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Tutskii on 16/02/2011 15:47:17
Originally by: Two Shots Are we already back to "this sum of money is too great" arguments again? Dear god pubbies.
Sorry, not everybody is swimming in spaceship cash like goonwaffe obviously is.
That being said if Goons are all rich then why would Kalrand need out space bucks?
Don't get me wrong, I think that Kal is... probably legit, but as an unbiased third party I can say that this loan/bond doesn't make sense for Deth, and Kal's expansion is lol.
Then again I could just be seeiin' em trollin' and be hatin'
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 15:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tutskii Edited by: Tutskii on 16/02/2011 15:47:17
Originally by: Two Shots Are we already back to "this sum of money is too great" arguments again? Dear god pubbies.
That being said if Goons are all rich then why would Kalrand need out space bucks?
To my knowledge he doesn't need spacebux. If he did, he could get money a lot more easily inside Goonfleet and without having to deal with mentally handicapped idiots. He's trying to make an arbitrage scheme by which he takes money from pubbies who are willing to invest for single-digit returns and then invest that low-interest money in higher-interest secured bonds.
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
Tutskii
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Posted - 2011.02.16 16:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: Tutskii Edited by: Tutskii on 16/02/2011 15:47:17
Originally by: Two Shots Are we already back to "this sum of money is too great" arguments again? Dear god pubbies.
That being said if Goons are all rich then why would Kalrand need out space bucks?
To my knowledge he doesn't need spacebux. If he did, he could get money a lot more easily inside Goonfleet and without having to deal with mentally handicapped idiots. He's trying to make an arbitrage scheme by which he takes money from pubbies who are willing to invest for single-digit returns and then invest that low-interest money in higher-interest secured bonds.
So? If he is so rich (as unlike us mentally handicapped pubbies, goons swim in spacebucks), then he could underwrite his scheme himself, and keep all the profits.
I will point out that the "mentally handicapped" pubbie that offered to back Kalrand doesn't have the money on him to cover anything anyway either and would need a loan for it (I know Deth is more than good for it, mind you) but that begs the question of the whole point of this.
Finally, if you are so rich and don't care about lol single digit returns you could just front Kal the money yourself, which would also solve the problem of "mentally handicapped idiots" who are poor and untrusting with their meager amounts of space money!
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 16:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tutskii
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: Tutskii Edited by: Tutskii on 16/02/2011 15:47:17
Originally by: Two Shots Are we already back to "this sum of money is too great" arguments again? Dear god pubbies.
That being said if Goons are all rich then why would Kalrand need out space bucks?
To my knowledge he doesn't need spacebux. If he did, he could get money a lot more easily inside Goonfleet and without having to deal with mentally handicapped idiots. He's trying to make an arbitrage scheme by which he takes money from pubbies who are willing to invest for single-digit returns and then invest that low-interest money in higher-interest secured bonds.
So? If he is so rich (as unlike us mentally handicapped pubbies, goons swim in spacebucks), then he could underwrite his scheme himself, and keep all the profits.
I will point out that the "mentally handicapped" pubbie that offered to back Kalrand doesn't have the money on him to cover anything anyway either and would need a loan for it (I know Deth is more than good for it, mind you) but that begs the question of the whole point of this.
Finally, if you are so rich and don't care about lol single digit returns you could just front Kal the money yourself, which would also solve the problem of "mentally handicapped idiots" who are poor and untrusting with their meager amounts of space money!
Why would I invest in Kalrand at 5% when I can invest in other goons at 10%?
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
Kalrand
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 16:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Two Shots
Why would I invest in Kalrand at 5% when I can invest in other goons at 10%?
4%. 5% was last week.
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 16:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Two Shots
Why would I invest in Kalrand at 5% when I can invest in other goons at 10%?
4%. 5% was last week.
:saddowns:
This still doesn't address the issue of how you could possibly underwrite yourself (or why you'd want to do so); or, why someone with access to goon offerings & solicitations would invest at a rate lower than available there. Either I just got trolled by a pubbie (:downs:), or he didn't read the OP where you're talking about the fact that pubbies don't have access to good rates and therefore tend to invest in lower-interest ventures where single-digit rates are acceptable.
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.02.16 16:38:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Two Shots Why would I invest in Kalrand at 5% when I can invest in other goons at 10%?
Who cares?
You're a goon - everybody gets it, you keep telling us enough. Now why don't you be a good boy and start posting on-topic or at least learn to troll properly?
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Kalrand
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 16:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Two Shots
:saddowns:
This still doesn't address the issue of how you could possibly underwrite yourself (or why you'd want to do so)
I constantly invest in myself. I just make better yields, and don't need more capital for my current businesses.
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 16:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Originally by: Two Shots Why would I invest in Kalrand at 5% when I can invest in other goons at 10%?
Who cares?
You're a goon - everybody gets it, you keep telling us enough. Now why don't you be a good boy and start posting on-topic or at least learn to troll properly?
I am posting on-topic. People keep asking why I don't do something that's less than optimal. Why don't you run your Empire missions in a Drake instead of a Golem/Nighthawk/Raven?Tengu?
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
Joce Prindu
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Posted - 2011.02.16 17:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Originally by: Two Shots Why would I invest in Kalrand at 5% when I can invest in other goons at 10%?
Who cares?
You're a goon - everybody gets it, you keep telling us enough. Now why don't you be a good boy and start posting on-topic or at least learn to troll properly?
I am posting on-topic. People keep asking why I don't do something that's less than optimal. Why don't you run your Empire missions in a Drake instead of a Golem/Nighthawk/Raven?Tengu?
I run Empire missions in a Drake and so sympathize with this statement. As I can see you are a fellow connoisseur of Caldari technology I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a Golem today. Mmmm... Golems. |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.16 17:32:00 -
[24]
Hmmm, LE and Kalrand are the voices of skepticism I look to here and now they're bickering?
And Kalrand is awesome as MD gatekeeper but as a goon he will backstab eventually. It's his nature, etc.
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Kalrand
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 17:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson Hmmm, LE and Kalrand are the voices of skepticism I look to here and now they're bickering?
And Kalrand is awesome as MD gatekeeper but as a goon he will backstab eventually. It's his nature, etc.
I'm not Two Shots. That's a different goon.
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 18:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson Hmmm, LE and Kalrand are the voices of skepticism I look to here and now they're bickering?
And Kalrand is awesome as MD gatekeeper but as a goon he will backstab eventually. It's his nature, etc.
I'm not Two Shots. That's a different goon.
In the past day we have learned that Kalrand, Two Shots, Companion Qube and Cheque Please are all the same person. :colbert:
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
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Posted - 2011.02.16 18:36:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Two Shots
In the past day we have learned that Kalrand, Two Shots, Companion Qube and Cheque Please are all the same person. :colbert:
If we weren't the same person, would we all be online RIGHT NOW at the same time, quoting each other? Very annoying to keep switching accounts to post though. --- RL Meeting w/ Chribba
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.02.16 21:47:00 -
[28]
Ok, some good feedback here. Let me run these questions by you folks.
Would it make my offering more or less attractive if I were to remove my 'underwriting' from kalrand's bond offer?
Would it make my offering more or less attractive if I were to remove the limitation on trading amount, but add a limitation that I will not invest in any uncollateralized offerings on MD prior to repaying my bond?
Would it make my offering more or less attractive if I added an end date (currently I prefer the indefinite term as I see no long-term point wherein I can make less than 3% on isk). Alternately, I could write up a more formal withdrawal system, rather than the informal I had planned, which was something to the tune of "Hey I need my ISKies back" "Ok it's going to take me a few days, will have it to you by Saturday".
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Kalrand
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.16 22:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane
Would it make my offering more or less attractive if I were to remove my 'underwriting' from kalrand's bond offer?
Less.
*whistles and looks off in another direction*
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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.02.16 22:41:00 -
[30]
Too late to öfixö your underwriter decision. People will always question the wisdom of your investment decision; see Lib.Et.
If you want to make it attractive, then list it in the BSAC Exchange. Bonds will be tradable, and you can buyout bonds of the Exchange at some specified rate. In addition, the number of outstanding bonds will be known by the public. The Exchange offers many tools for fund managers to administer their bond.
BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange |
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